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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1929

Vol. 31 No. 1

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 8—Local Loans.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £523,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun capital do sholáthar do Chiste na nIasachtaí Aitiúla, agus chun aisíoc do dhéanamh le Rialtas na Breataine mar gheall ar iasachtaí áitiúla atá gan íoc.

That a sum not exceeding £523,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, to provide capital for the Local Loans Fund and to make repayment to the British Government in respect of Local Loans outstanding.

I move: "That the Estimate be reduced by £300,000 in respect of sub-head B."

I would like to direct the attention of the House to the fact that the amendment only relates to portion of the £600,000 which has to be paid under sub-head B of this Vote. That is, the annuity of £600,000 which is payable half-yearly under Article 5 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement. I am sure I need not inform the House that in view of the declared policy of our Party to re-open this Ultimate Financial Settlement when a favourable opportunity occurs, if it had not been for the fact that the annuity is payable half-yearly, and that the House has already voted in the Vote-on-Account the first moiety of that annuity, the amendment would be to refuse provision in respect of the whole sub-head.

We ask the Dáil not to agree to this payment on two grounds. First, that the payment is inconsistent with Article 2 of the Agreement which was signed on the 3rd December, 1925, which amended the Treaty, and that even if not inconsistent with that Article, no proper inquiry has been made to establish clearly the liability of the Free State in the matter, the amount of liability, if any, and until the liability has been properly established no payment should be made. In dealing with the first point, it might be well to remind the Dáil of the purport of Article 5 of the Treaty. That Article provided that the Free State should assume a proportionate liability for the service of the public debt, on what in the terms of the Treaty was described as the United Kingdom, as that debt stood at the date of the Treaty, subject to the condition that such a part liability was to be fixed upon a fair and equitable basis, and that in determining it due regard should be taken of any just claims on the part of Ireland, by way of set-off or counter-claim.

It seems to have been accepted by both parties to the Treaty—by Mr. Cosgrave's Government on the one hand, and by the British Government on the other hand—that it was desirable that effect should not be given to this Article until the boundary of the Irish Free State had been delimited in accordance with Article 12 of the Treaty. Accordingly, nothing seems to have been done in the matter until the Boundary Commission was about to issue its report. Then an English newspaper, in the most unfriendly way, spilled the beans upon poor Mr. Cosgrave by publishing a forecast of the report which the Boundary Commission had agreed to, and was about to make, a forecast which obviously had authoritative inspiration, and which after events proved to be well founded. That forecast put the country into a ferment and the Government into a panic. The Government's representative upon the Boundary Commission, whose inactivity——

There is nothing about that in this Vote.

I beg your pardon, I am entitled——

It has nothing to do with this.

I am tracing the origin of the payment.

The Deputy is not in order in the line he is trying to take.

I suggest I should be permitted in an important matter like this, when everything hinges upon what occurred at this time——

The Deputy cannot be permitted to review what happened at the Boundary Commission.

I think I am entitled to remind the House of the circumstances under which the Treaty was amended, and I am entitled, having done that, to remind the House of what was said at the time to show that the proposal to grant the amount under sub-head B of this Vote is inconsistent with the public declarations that were made in this House at the time.

If the Deputy was entitled to go back on that he would be entitled to go back to the Treaty itself.

I am not going back on it. I suggest that in voting public moneys, particularly public moneys under a Constitution which is dominated and fettered by the Treaty, I am entitled to refer to certain fundamental clauses in the Treaty.

The Deputy is entitled to refer to the Ultimate Financial Settlement.

And the circumstances under which that was signed.

The Deputy is entitled to refer to the Ultimate Financial Settlement, and to this payment which is set out here under that settlement, but nothing else.

I submit that is most unfair. I am entitled to refer to a preceding document with which I hold the Ultimate Financial Settlement is inconsistent.

Perhaps the Deputy will get this into his mind. He is entitled to do what the Chair states he is in order in doing, and nothing else.

I submit that the Ultimate Financial Settlement has no legal status whatsoever; that it has never been ratified by the House.

The Deputy must not argue with the Chair. I have never stated whether it has or has not. I am not talking on the merits of the Ultimate Financial Settlement or of this payment. I am not concerned with the merits. I am concerned purely with the question of order.

I submit that in dealing with the matter I am entitled to refer——

The Deputy must not argue with the Chair. I have given my ruling on the matter.

With all due regard to you, if I am not entitled to refer to the Treaty (Confirmation of Amendment) Agreement Act— one of the fundamental statutes of the State—I do not see how we can proceed to discuss the matter at all.

I have not suggested that the Deputy is not entitled to deal with that.

I was proceeding to deal with that.

No, The Deputy was not. The Deputy was trying to deal with something that led up to that long before.

I am not now endeavouring—I am saying what I was entitled to do. I was endeavouring to show the circumstances under which——

The Deputy must not argue with the Chair. The Deputy is out of order, and I think that the Deputy knows he is out of order.

I quite agree that it is folly, that it is futile to argue with the Chair. There are some things which are better left unsaid.

The Deputy ought not to make that statement.

Perhaps the Deputy will explain exactly what he meant.

I submit that the Chair has not allowed me to develop my argument. I was not going to refer——

Will the Deputy explain what he meant by his statement before he sat down?

The statement that some things are better left unsaid? I am not going to elaborate upon that. What I have not said, you are not entitled to challenge me about.

The Deputy made the statement that it is futile to argue with the Chair. That is a statement that ought not to be made here.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle told me that I should not argue with the Chair. I made the comment that it is futile to argue with the Chair. Very well, construe that if you wish—I am not going to construe it.

It was not respectful.

I am not taking exception to that, but I do suggest to the Deputy that when the Chair states that a certain speech or statement is not in order we would be unable to carry on the business of the House if such a statement from the Chair is not accepted. The Deputy should realise that the Chair, irrespective of who occupies it, is supposed to be the sole judge of order.

I am sorry if anything I have said might be taken as reflecting upon you, and I withdraw it. I began with a reference to Article V of the Treaty, and I was proceeding to show the circumstances under which that Article was amended. I was proceeding to show that it was amended because of a certain matter with regard to Article 12. I think it is a continuous argument. If I start, as I must start in this matter, to show that under Article V—the agreement which governs everything in this State, which governs the Constitution of the State—I am surely entitled to recall the circumstances under which Article V was amended. I do not wish to stress the point. I was only going to remind the House that at the time when it was agreed that the boundary of this State should not be altered in the way in which every-body—most people, not everybody; thank goodness, I was one who was not fooled—in which most people who voted for the Treaty thought it should be——

The Deputy must not go back on that. He can argue as to the settlement under which this money is voted, but he must not go back on the history of the Treaty.

At any rate, in consequence of certain negotiations which took place in London in December, 1925, the President, as to whom one of his admirers at that time claimed he had won the greatest victory since Brian Boru, came back, and himself evaluated that victory, and, with his usual choice and happy felicity of phrase, stated that he had made a "damn good bargain," that had left this country with a clean slate, such as no other country in Europe possessed. In due time, the President's "damn good bargain" was written into the Statute Book in the form of an Act entitled the Treaty (Confirmation of Amendment) Agreement Act, 1925, in the schedule of which it was declared, in Article 2: "The Irish Free State is hereby released from obligation under Article 5 of the said Articles of Agreement to assume the liability therein mentioned." I should like to return for a moment to Article 5 of the original Treaty, which is referred to in the second Article of the Amending Agreement. Article 5 provided that in fixing the proportionate liability of the Irish Free State for the service of the public debt of what is called the United Kingdom, due regard was to be paid to any just claim on the part of Ireland by way of set-off or counter-claim. What just claims might have thus been advanced? Quite obviously one of them could have been and, I hope, would have been for a share in the assets of the late United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Such assets, in so far as they were tangible and real, had been created by the moneys of the taxpayer and the services of the sons and daughters of both countries. On the dissolution of the United Kingdom or other change in the political relations between them, each country which was a party to that Union was entitled to its fair share of the assets thus created. Such a fair share embraced, I hold, not only the treasure and credit of the British Treasury and the armaments in Britain's arsenals and her fleets upon the seas, but a share in every asset in her Empire, her Dominions, her Colonies, her territorial possessions, and above all, that vast, immeasurable asset, the good-will of her market in every clime and in every part of the globe. The treasure of Irish citizens, the valour and enterprise of Ireland's children had gone to the building and creation of these, and upon every one of them she had a just claim, and was entitled to a fair share. As a matter of fact, the public debt referred to in Article 5 of the original Agreement represented, in great part, the treasure which had been expended in advancing the assets and territorial possessions and trade position of the United Kingdom, and in addition to the Irish money poured out in that way, there had also been poured out Irish blood. If we were called upon by Article 5 of the Treaty to assume responsibility for the expense of defending that Empire, then equally we were entitled to share in every possession of the British Empire.

Now, the British Empire was not a bankrupt concern even when the Treaty was signed, and even at the time when the amending agreement was signed. Its assets, if they could be realised, far exceeded its liabilities and, therefore, any claim which Ireland might have advanced under Article 5 of the Treaty for a fair share of these assets, certainly would have exceeded any liabilities that Ireland might have been called upon to assume under Article 5 of the Treaty. And one of the best assets, because it had a real existence and because its real value was at least equal to its nominal value—and that could hardly be said with certainty with reference to any armaments or buildings or any other fixed assets—was this Local Loans Fund and the amounts due to that Fund on foot of the advances which had been received from it by local authorities, not only in Ireland, but in Great Britain.

Now, undoubtedly the local authorities had borrowed from that Fund, and undoubtedly, if the relations between Great Britain and this country had remained unchanged, they were bound to repay to that Fund every penny which had been borrowed and all the interest in respect thereof as it fell due. But while the local authorities had been borrowing, our taxpayers had been providing—equally with the taxpayers of Great Britain—the resources out of which the moneys which our local authorities had borrowed had been advanced. It is just possible that perhaps our taxpayers had provided even more than our local authorities had borrowed, and if, and whenever, the assets of the United Kingdom came to be divided, we should be entitled to a share of that part of those assets which might be represented by advances from the Local Loans Fund and the interest which thereunto might have accrued.

Obviously, therefore, so far as this Local Loans Fund is concerned, while this country might have liability in respect of the advances received from the Fund it has also a claim on the Fund in respect of that part of it which was represented by the moneys of the Irish taxpayer.

Let us get back to Article 2 of the amending agreement signed on the 3rd of December, 1925. The words of that Article—and I draw the attention of the House to this— whether by accident or design are very important and significant——

When was that signed?

Third of December, 1925.

Is not this money to be paid under the Ultimate Settlement?

I want to show this Ultimate Financial Settlement was never ratified by this House. It was never formally put for ratification by this House. It was signed by the Minister for Finance on the one hand, and by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other. I am entitled to challenge the validity of the Article when money is paid under it.

That was signed in March, 1926.

On the 1st of April, 1926.

Perhaps the Deputy would read it again.

I beg pardon, it was the 19th April, 1926; but I was referring to Article 2 of the Amending Agreement before I come to the Ultimate Financial Settlement. I was endeavouring to draw the attention of the House to Article 2 of the Amending Agreement Act signed on the 3rd December, 1925, and the Schedule which is attached to the Confirmation of Amendment Agreement Act, 1925.

Will the Deputy show me the relation between that and this Vote?

The Article states the Irish Free State is hereby released from the obligation under Article 5 of the said Articles of Agreement to assume the liability therein mentioned. This Article quite clearly, so far as the Local Loans Fund and the Public Debt of the United Kingdom are concerned, releases Ireland from all liability, but it does not release—and this is an important point—it does not release and indemnify England against any claim which may be made upon her by Ireland under Article 5 of the Treaty. It releases Ireland from all obligation to assume the liability mentioned in Article 5 of the Treaty, but it does not indemnify England against any claim which we may advance, and does not free her from the obligation to meet and satisfy those claims that we can show are justly due. Now that is obviously the purpose of Article 5 of the Agreement. It says that when the proportionate liability of Ireland in respect of the Public Debt of the United Kingdom and of War Pensions has been calculated, any just claims on the part of Ireland are to be taken into consideration in fixing the amount.

Article 2 of the Amending Agreement wipes out the obligation upon Ireland's part to assume any part of the liability for the Public Debt of the United Kingdom, or for War Pensions, but it leaves Ireland's claims in their original position; it does not circumscribe or whittle them down. The proof that Article 2 of the Amending Agreement did not affect Ireland's just claims under Article 5 is to be found in Article 10 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement, which reads: "The Irish Free State Government agree to make no claim in respect of any of the assets of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom including, inter alia, the Civil Contingency Fund and receipts on account of the Reparations and Inter-Allied Debts." Every single item referred to in Article 10 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement was an item in respect of which there was a just claim which England would have to meet and satisfy under Article 5 of the original Treaty. Not one of those claims was in any way wiped out by Article 2 of the Amending Agreement. They still existed until this document known as the Ultimate Financial Settlement was signed secretly in London in March, 1926. It was kept secret for over six months, and was only divulged at the end of that year. The Minister has never justified that document to this House. I say that the payment of £600,000 to which under Article 12 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement he has bound us, in so far as it lay within his power to bind this House— that obligation is not a debt of honour and is not an obligation that we are legally bound to assume. Until it is fully justified to this House, this House should not vote one penny piece to meet the obligations which the Minister for Finance accepted in his own name when he agreed to pay this annuity of £600,000 for twenty years in respect of advances to the Local Loans Fund.

It is quite possible the Minister may be able to justify that. I do not see how he can justify it. The President returned here in December, 1925, with white flags flying, and he told the House he had made a damn good bargain, had wiped out all our obligations under Article 5 of the Treaty, and that we were starting with a clean slate such as no other country in Europe possessed. He was deliberately deceiving this House and this nation. Article 11 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement is inconsistent with the statement that he made then, that we were starting with a clean slate, because Article 11 shows that we wiped Britain's slate for her, and she left us still with a responsibility under this one head alone of paying her £600,000 for twenty years. There is something very peculiar about this payment and about this whole document. It was never submitted to the Dáil for sanction. When the matter was raised in another place and it was proposed that an impartial and non-partisan committee should be set up to inquire into the whole question, the Minister for Finance opposed the appointment of such a committee.

Where was that proposal made?

In the Seanad, and the Minister said he would not attend the Committee nor permit any officials to attend and that the Government would submit no papers and give no information to the Committee.

Surely the Deputy does not intend to go into the whole question of the Ultimate Financial Settlement?

I have referred only incidentally to the Ultimate Financial Settlement. I am discussing Sub-head B of this Vote particularly.

I do not want to restrict the Deputy more than I can help in so far as his argument is relevant to the £600,000. Now he is trying to have a full-dress debate on the Ultimate Financial Settlement and on the Treaty Amending Act as well. He has devoted his whole speech to those two things.

If I might put it this way, it is impossible to discuss the tail of the elephant without discussing the elephant.

This is not the proper place to do it.

It may be a small part of the Ultimate Financial Settlement, but it is a part of it, and I must discuss it in relation to the whole matter. I cannot see how I possibly could do otherwise. We are asked to vote a sum which is payable under Article 5 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement, and I have referred to the whole of the settlement incidentally. I have now to refer to the fact that the Minister in another House refused to make any disclosure of the reasons for signing the Ultimate Financial Settlement, a document which, among other sums, bound us to pay this £600,000 a year. Notwithstanding the Minister's attitude in the matter, the motion setting up this Committee in the Seanad was only defeated by the casting vote of the then Chairman. We ask the Dáil before passing this sum to insist upon a full inquiry into this matter not, if you will, with a view to ascertaining how the sums yielded to Great Britain under the other ten or eleven Articles of the Ultimate Financial Settlement have been given away, but in order to ascertain how the sum yielded under Article 5 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement has been given away. I want the Dáil simply to get from the Minister before it votes this sum an explanation as to how he came to agree that it was rightly due to Great Britain and how he arrived at the amount in question.

Even if it were held or could be shown that some payment was due to Great Britain in respect of the advances from this Local Loans Fund, surely we are entitled to know the basis upon which the amount was due or ascertained? I ask the House to get the Minister to disclose that basis. So far he has kept it a secret locked up in his own breast. I think the Dáil is bound now to make him yield up that secret. The Dáil controls the purse strings, and by tightening the purse strings in this instance they can compel the Minister, who has hitherto been dumb on this matter, to speak. It can bend him because it can break him and his Government. We ask him, in the proper discharge of his duty to the citizens of this country, and in the fulfilment of its obligations, not to pay one penny piece of the citizens' money where it is not rightly due. I ask Deputies not to pass this Vote until the Minister for Finance lays upon the Table of the House such papers and documents as will satisfy any impartial inquirer that we do indeed owe to Great Britain this annuity of £600,000 which under Article 5 of the Ultimate Financial Settlement he has contracted to pay for a period of twenty years.

When we consider this sum here, and when we think of the debate that took place at an earlier stage to-night and a statement made by the President indicating how careful he was with public money, and how anxious he was that there should be somebody to come after him who would be equally careful and equally anxious, his speech seems to read as a huge joke. The statements he made in the House, viewed in the light of subsequent events, seem to be rather comical. We are asked under this Vote to hand over £600,000 to the British Government each year, apparently under an agreement which has never been brought to this House for ratification, an agreement which has never been ratified by the representatives of this piece of an island. Then we are wondering where does the Minister keep all his carefulness that he is boasting about here? When we view this anxiety of the President to see that there was no money expended uselessly, and that there was no money expended that should not be expended, the President may remember the 50,000 unemployed—in fact he went as high as 80,000 to-night—when we think of the 6,000 houses towards which he could give a grant each year of £100 each if he could have kept this money at home and put it to the use to which a President and an Executive Council who were as careful of the public purse as he pretends to be, would put it, then we are left wondering still. Why did he not devote all this money to the interests of those whom he claims to represent? I think the handing over of that £600,000 to the British Government is nothing more or less than scandalous, and it is nothing more or less than robbery of the Irish people by those who unfortunately have the handling of the purse-strings of the Irish people at the present day.

I wonder how any Executive Council can coolly sit down here and propose to hand over this money to the British Government without having any authority to do so, no authority whatever, and at the same time tell the people that they have no money for the relief of unemployment, and that they have no money for grants for the building of dwellings in rural areas, and that they have no money to give the farmers of the country any assistance whatsoever. We are going abroad to borrow money and lend it out at 6 per cent., and at the same time we are handing out £600,000 every year ourselves to the British. That shows how generous the President and the Executive Council have always proved themselves to be except when dealing with those to whom they should be generous. The people to whom they should be generous are our own people, who pay the piper. The more we look at this matter, the more we come to the conclusion that the President, much as he might seek to throw dust in the eyes of the people, has by this big nought of his that he brought back from those deliberations in London, apparently got any amount of figures back of it, and on front of it, and behind it as well. I think it is high time that the Dáil should consider this matter in a right light. The President of the Executive Council reminds me of a steward we would be leaving in charge of a farm and who would go into a fair to buy a cow to supply milk——

Oh! do not mention the cow.

We would find that when that steward came home from the fair that we would be told about this cow and all the milk she was giving night and morning, and the milk she was giving in the evening too. But perhaps we would after a time get into the stall, and at the end of six months or twelve months ——

You would not be milking her for twelve months, surely?

We would find at the end of twelve months when we would get into the stall that that animal was a bull. That is like the President. The President is like that steward. He insists all the time that he has got a good bargain, even though the good milking cow that he brought home has turned out to be a very bad bull. That is the position of the President of the Executive Council when he comes here to us and says: "I have got a good bargain. I brought home a big nought, but in this Vote I am paying £600,000 every year." There is no doubt that the President has got a lot of good bargains for the Irish people, and they will want one day to make their regards to him for these good bargains in a way which he will have no difficulty in understanding.

There are a few words which I wish to say on this Vote. When the President this evening in his usual frivolous manner was dealing with the Vote of his own Department or Office I was rather amazed at hearing him talk about the unemployment question. He said it was Labour's own child sometimes, and then again that it was the Fianna Fáil Party's own child. I did not think at the time we were so near the President's disowning his own child. But coming into this House with this Estimate, it cannot be denied that this is one of the President's own children—it is rather a peculiar incident to find that so soon he had to take up the role of denying one of his own children in the most unexpected fashion.

I think, in view of that, we should be disposed to take a more charitable view of this Vote. I would be in favour of having no division only for Deputy MacEntee pressing it to a division. Because it must be admitted from all we have seen and heard and the whispering that we get on this matter of the secret financial agreement, that the President was in one of his weak moments, and that he made a mistake in coming home with that huge nought in his pocket, and that he meant well and thought he was stating the fact. It was only afterwards he found that that huge nought was what Deputy Corry has described. I think that when we accept the rule of the Chair, as we are bound to on all questions, that we should take a charitable view of the President's previous statement on this matter of the financial agreement; and taking a charitable view of this thing we should, instead of voting against the President in this matter, sympathise with him on having gone once to London without having the financial experts about whom he talked so much a while ago. One time he went as far as New Zealand for a financial expert.

No, the Deputy is wrong—Australia.

There is very little difference, but it is a pity that he did not go to New Zealand for some financial expert. If he came to some Fianna Fáil Deputies at the time they would have been very charitably disposed to the President about that huge nought. We had, in fact, such foresight in the matter that we knew that it was not a huge nought, even before the secret financial settlement was disclosed here by the Minister for Finance. I would have been inclined to urge our Party and the Labour Party to take a charitable view of the President's mistake.

This is a Vote in respect of which there is an asset. I find it hard to explain that to the Deputy who has just sat down. If I took one of the Fianna Fáil Deputies to London, I would have taken one who said that we expect a sum of £19,000,000 annually to be charged. So far as this is concerned, it is an asset to the State. A public debt is a liability, but the Deputy will probably ignore the fact. It is a debt due in respect of the State. This was due by the local authorities in respect of such services as labourers' cottages. It was money advanced to the local authorities. The sum that will come in this year is about £617,000. That will have to be paid in the ordinary way, as it is due by the local authorities. We are discharged from the liability, and this is a gain.

An extraordinary position has been taken up by the President. This £600,000 is money that would come from the Local Loans Fund, and would naturally be a part of the revenue of this State.

It should be.

It could not.

Because it was a liability.

To those who advanced the money.

And what about the question of the freedom from liability to the British National Debt?

This is a local debt.

A local debt to whom? Let us hear the President.

I was winding up the discussion as the Minister for Finance is not coming in on this Vote.

We did not understand that. The President would like always to be in the position of being the last person to speak. He made a statement just now about £19,000,000. Will the President say exactly what I did say? I am glad to have an opportunity of dealing with this matter. I said that I had a document which showed that the British Government were putting in a claim for £19,000,000, and, because I saw that they were putting in a claim for that amount, I knew the type that they had shown themselves in the past to be, and I expected that they were going to squeeze people like the President.

No such sum was mentioned.

It was, and the document is in existence. If the President looks up the document, which I suppose is in his archives, he will find that a sum of £19,000,000 was estimated.

There was no such sum.

I am certain that it was mentioned. The basis on which the British were putting forward the claim was the basis of the Imperial contribution made in that year.

£19,000,000, which was the sum for that particular year. That was reckoned as the Imperial contribution.

Annually? Was it a lump sum or an annual sum?

It was the sum on which the British were putting forward their claim for that particular year, a sum of £19,000,000. They gave the figure on which they got the £18,000,000 which appeared in the 1920 Act, and they brought it up to date.

The £19,000,000 is not relevant to this debate.

I submit that it is.

I submit that it is not.

The point with respect to this debate is that we have to find out what is the basis of this contribution to England. If we are accused by the President of making ridiculous statements, I think that we ought, at least, be permitted to show that these statements were very far from being ridiculous.

I have permitted the Deputy to make a much longer statement than the President has made.

Surely a person can make a misstatement in one phrase, and one should have an opportunity of exposing it. When such a misstatement is made one cannot expose it also in a phrase.

If every statement is looked upon as a misstatement and is to be followed by another statement we will have no order. I want to try to make my position clear. I have no desire to restrict anybody more than is in my opinion necessary in the interests of order in this House. There must be some standard of order if we are to carry on our debates here.

We did not mention the £19,000,000 first.

I was invited to take over an expert from that party.

When the President suggests that we on this side made ridiculous statements, that we expected that this sum of money would be paid, we are entitled to make clear what we did say, and to give the basis for our statement. In the 1920 Act you have a sum of £18,000,000 mentioned. This £19,000,000 referred to was the correction of that, and the amount was brought up to date. That was for Ireland as a whole, of which 13.7 was to be our share. Therefore we concluded that there was going to be a claim put in by England for a large share of money, and we warned the Irish people what would be the consequences, and what would happen unless strong action was taken by them to see that their representatives carefully guarded their interests.

There is a reference somewhere in Article 5 of the Treaty to Ireland's share of the liabilities for the Public Debt of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. From these liabilities a later agreement freed us on certain considerations. Now here we are, having been freed from these liabilities to meet the Public Debt of the United Kingdom, contributing an annual sum for such purpose; money coming from the local authorities to the central authorities here; money coming in from local loans. These are naturally the revenues of the State, and should be retained as such, and to hand them over is simply to hand over money which belongs to the Irish people—handing them over unnecessarily to England. There is no justification for it. As was pointed out by Deputy MacEntee, if there was a basis of distributing liabilities with the assets, then you could simply take part of it and say: "Oh yes, for this particular part you can have assets." There should be a proper distribution of the assets and a proper estimate of the total assets and liabilities. On such a basis we are not asked to pay this particular sum. As I see it, the payment of this sum is not justified. No member on the opposite benches has justified it. We, at any rate, are not going to take any responsibility whatever for it, and we intend to vote against the Estimate.

There is one point in the President's statement which is incorrect, or is likely to give an incorrect impression. It conveyed, or attempted to convey, the idea that this £600,000 represents moneys paid by local authorities to the British National Debt Commissioners. That is not a fact. The moneys paid by the local authorities go into the funds of the Irish Free State, and are credited to the Free State.

Out of this total, £600,000 comes in from local authorities.

In other words, it is a transaction between the British Government and the Free State Government. I put it to the President that no sum becomes payable from the Irish Free State under the document called the Ultimate Financial Settlement? I take it the sum only becomes payable by the State if it is charged on the funds of the State by a vote of the House? Has that happened?

Under what Act?

It is done under this.

This is an Estimate, not an Act. There is no liability on the State to pay this amount to Great Britain. This State can be held liable by an International Agreement or an Act of this House. We want to know what it is. What is the International Agreement and what is the section of the Agreement?

The Ultimate Financial Settlement, Article 5, and this Act.

Is the President contending that the Ultimate Financial Settlement has received the force of law from the Dáil?

It is an international agreement.

Can this State be bound by an international agreement to which the Dáil has not given its consent?

It does every year.

If the Ministry entered to-morrow into an agreement with the Secretary of the United States Treasury to pay a sum of £1,000,000 as an Ultimate Settlement between the two countries in respect of services rendered in the '98 period, would the House be bound to make that payment without an opportunity of considering the matter or giving the force of law to the agreement?

I think that is too hypothetical a question to put to me.

It is a question that must be considered.

There are three different points involved. The first question is whether the money was advanced to local authorities, and have they got value for it? The second is whether they incurred any liability, and have they got the assets? The third point is whether they have to discharge the liability.

This money was advanced under an Act of 1887 passed by the political unit called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The money was due to the National Debt Commissioners acting under the Parliament. That political unit ceased to exist when the Treaty came into operation. The money would be no longer paid to the Exchequer of the unit.

It is payable to one of the partners. It could have been paid if we were not here at all.

The point is very important as to the liability. Here is money coming in to the Central Fund of the State. The point we want to find out is to whom is that money due? It is obviously not due to the British Treasury. I do not see how the President can assert that it is due to the British Treasury.

To whom is it due?

Certainly not to the British Treasury. I say that we should hold on to that money until it is proved that we are not entitled to it. Possession is nine points of the law.

That is the most honest case we have heard yet.

Why should we pay out money to the British Treasury if it is not proved that we owe them that money? If I said to the President. "You owe me £10," would he pay it?

If the Deputy had a good case, I would.

Exactly, if I took him into Court and satisfied him. I say that we should take up that attitude in regard to the British Government. Here is money we have and no Government has a right to get it from us. They have not proved their title to it. I submit, therefore, that it is a very injudicious matter for the Government to concede its title to the money in this manner by voting this money either on this or any other occasion. Let the money remain here until some liability to pay has been proved. There is no international agreement under which we have to pay it. No such international agreement exists. There is no law enacted by the Dáil directing the Executive Council or ordering the payment of this money, in this manner. The ultimate financial agreement, which is the only document mentioned has no legal status. It has no more binding force than an agreement between myself and Deputy Sheehy to contribute £10 to the funds of Skibbereen Urban Council would have.

Amendment to reduce Sub-head B by £300,000 put.
The Committee divided. Tá, 52; Níl, 63.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Mullins, Thomas.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Leary, William.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEóin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, John.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies G. Boland and Allen. Níl: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle.
Amendment declared lost.
Main question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 44.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEóin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, John.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Mullins, Thomas.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Leary, William.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.
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