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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1929

Vol. 31 No. 1

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 18.—Secret Service.

—I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £6,500 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Seirbhísí Sicréideacha.

That a sum not exceeding £6,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930. for Secret Services.

I will give a table of expenditure.

In the year 1922-23 when, as Deputies are aware, conditions were abnormal, the amount voted was £220,000 and the amount expended £118,762. In 1923-24 the amount voted was £50,000 and the amount expended was £39,236. In 1924-25 the amount voted was £25,000 and the amount expended £19,665. In 1925-26 there was £20,000 voted and £8,995 expended. In 1926-27 £14,000 was voted and £2,970 expended. In 1927-28 £10,000 was voted and £6,649 expended. In 1928-29 the sum voted was £10,000 and the expenditure £5,570.

If the amount expended last year was only half that voted and the amount spent the year before was three-quarters of that voted, I wonder why a vote of £10,000 is being asked for this year. Of course there has been, as the Minister has said, a great decrease in the amounts voted and the amounts expended since 1922-23, and it is not possible in any country to get an account of the method by which such moneys are expended. I wonder could the Minister tell us what percentage of the amount voted is for criminal investigation and what percentage for political espionage? We all agree that on criminal investigation work secret service is necessary in any country, but, when used in certain directions and on certain occasions, that money might lead to harm rather than to good. There is one case, at least, about which we are not satisfied and that is the Seán Harling case, despite all references made to it here in cross-fire and otherwise and in the implications of certain kinds. I do not think that the country is satisfied that that individual was not, for some time at least, an agent provocateur. If the Minister could give us what percentage of the money goes to political espionage and what percentage to proper criminal investigation, also what amount is spent in the Free State and what amount is spent outside it, it might be some enlightenment.

I could not give the Deputy any information, but I do assure him that no money has been or will be spent on agents provocateurs.

It is unsatisfactory that the Minister could not make a clear distinction between what has been spent on criminal investigations and what has been spent on secret service because neither of these services is very different.

The safety of the State, which is the same thing.

The safety of the State is a very different thing from the point of view of criminals and from the point of view of persons who might be foreigners, who might be in some way or another trying to interfere with the safety of the State, to use the words of the Minister, and it is due to the very fact that the two things are mixed up together that such deplorable acts have occurred. For instance, the condition of the County Clare at present, if one might judge from the reports, is anything but what one would desire. This body, which we cannot define exactly as one thing or another, is acting in a way which is undoubtedly causing a very considerable amount of trouble. I think it is largely due to the fact that the Minister allows politics to get mixed up with, for instance, questions of criminal investigation. There is no attempt to define some principle of distinction between political offences and crime in the ordinary sense. Things have been done by the officials, call them what you like or give them whatever functions you like. Acts of violence have taken place. References have been made to them on other Votes and the results have been most deplorable. I think that in view of the fact that the Minister will not make a clear distinction for us about these Votes it is necessary for us to vote against this Estimate altogether.

The Minister said he could assure the House that no money was spent on agents provocateur. Will he deny that in the case of Harling, he himself in his evidence admitted that he had suggested raids on certain offices and tried to organise them? If that is not the action of an agent provocateur I do not know what is. I suggest that the Government would be very wise if it reconsidered its whole attitude of employing touts and people like Harling. I believe, and I said it 18 months ago, that the Government have deliberately gone out on a certain provocative policy with regard to certain people, this business of raiding for arms, for instance. The other day I heard a story of an old Fenian who had a dump. He would not tell anyone where it was. For 40 years he kept the secret. He died, and the dump remained there. I believe if the Government adopted some policy like that the dumps would remain where they are and a lot of the arms would be rusted, but the very fact that they employ touts is a sort of stimulus to people to look after those arms and to keep them right. There has been trouble, shootings have taken place on both sides as a result directly of those people going around. I really believe that a lot of them are paid out of this secret service money. I have only the one case, the Harling case, that has come up. I believe the Government have put people into those organisations, and I would not be surprised if they encouraged them to some activities. I have not any proof of that, but I believe that is one of the functions carried out by people provided with money out of this Secret Service Vote, and the Government ought to alter their policy in that respect.

Question put.
The Committee divided. Tá, 62; Níl, 49.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEóin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Daly, John.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Mullins, Thomas.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Leary, William.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl: Deputies Boland and Allen.
Motion declared carried.
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