Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 1929

Vol. 31 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Children Bill, 1928—Third Stage.

SECTION 1.

Minister for Education (Professor O'Sullivan)

I move:

At the end of the section to insert a sub-section as follows:—

"(2) The said sub-section (1) of Section 58 of the Children Act, 1908, shall also be construed and have effect as if the following words were inserted therein at the end of the said sub-section, that is to say—:

"Provided also that the court shall not make an order that a child be sent to a certified industrial school on the grounds stated in paragraph (h) unless the child's parents consent or his surviving parent or, in the case of an illegitimate child, his mother consents to such order being made; provided also that if an application is made to the Minister for Education by the parents or surviving parent or, in the case of an illegitimate child, the mother of a child committed on the grounds stated in the said paragraph (h) to a certified industrial school for the discharge from such school of such child, the said Minister shall, if satisfied that the persons or person making such application are or is able to support such child, order such discharge of such child."

When the Bill came for Second Reading a considerable time ago I indicated that if certain amendments which I proposed to insert were inserted there would be no objection to it. I indicated the line these amendments would take, and I think there was general agreement that if the amendments were inserted the Bill would be acceptable. I now propose to carry out the views I expressed at the time.

Mr. Briscoe

At the time this Bill was introduced in the Dáil it was indicated clearly that the Bill as it was would require certain amendments. I would like to know if the Minister is prepared to make some further statement with regard to the purpose of the Bill than that made by the sponsors of the Bill.

Professor O'Sullivan

I made a full statement of the purpose of the Bill on the Second Reading here so far as I understood the purpose of the Bill.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not think that the purpose of the Bill was properly explained. I read in great detail through all the debates that took place on this particular Bill in the Seanad, and I tried to gather from the arguments, pro and con, what was intended to be accomplished by the Bill.

The amendments here, to a certain extent, go to taking away the one critical objection which we had on this side of the House. That was that poverty itself should be sufficient to take away from people their children without their being consulted. That has been remedied and it is certainly an improvement. If the parents do consent and if children are sent to these schools they can be discharged subsequently if the Minister is satisfied that the parents are in a position to support them. The proposer of this Bill in the Seanad stated that one need not be fearful of the consequences of the coming into operation of this Bill, as many people would not be affected, because the industrial schools were so filled at the present time that they would not be able to take at the outside more than 200 or 300 children. Are we introducing a Bill here to look after the poverty-stricken people to the extent only of 200 or 300 children? I contend that if we are going to go far enough to accomplish something we should make provision for the taking care of children of poverty-stricken people all over the country. I must say that I feel in full agreement with the sentiments expressed by Senator Mrs. Wyse Power on this matter. This is not going to meet the situation. It is going to alleviate, if you like, the hardships in a certain number of cases. I for one would press that the Minister should give us some outline now as to the purpose of the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is forgetting that we are on the Committee Stage and that the House has agreed to the principle.

Mr. Briscoe

On the Second Stage of this Bill the Minister made a very brief statement and said he would not accept responsibility for the Bill and that he was going to introduce certain amendments on the Committee Stage which would meet these objections. His statement could not be interpreted as explaining the purpose of the Bill.

Professor O'Sullivan

I made it quite clear that I did not accept responsibility. I am not accepting responsibility for this Bill. I am introducing an amendment that will make the Bill acceptable to me and to the Government and, I understand, to the House. I am not for a moment suggesting that this Bill solves the whole question. I am only suggesting that it goes a certain way to meet certain objections. On that ground, I was prepared if a certain amendment was inserted here and in the Seanad, not to oppose the Bill, and to admit that it removes a certain objection to the law as it at present stands. I make no further claim. I am not accepting responsibility. I made it quite clear that so far as I was concerned I would urge nobody to vote for or against the Bill.

Mr. Briscoe

That goes a long way to explain the position. I would be glad to hear the Minister state that the Bill as introduced now is not going to be used as an excuse for holding up the introduction of such measures as were recommended in the Poor Law Commission report.

Professor O'Sullivan

I think the Deputy will see from the way in which I rushed this Bill through that there is hardly any such desire on my part.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 1, as amended, agreed to.

Section 2 and title put and agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Bill reported with amendment.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

Mr. S.T. O'Kelly

On this side of the House, as on the other side, we are anxious to facilitate this Bill in the belief that it may go some little way towards helping—I do not know that I could say solving, the difficulties; it will hardly do that. But as some people in the Seanad and elsewhere think that this amendment to the present legislation will be of value, we do not wish to oppose it. We do not wish to take any responsibility for it either.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move:—

"That the Bill do now pass."

Question put and agreed to.

The President

I move the adjournment of the Dáil until Wednesday, 23rd October.