I beg to move:—
"In sub-section (3), line 36, to delete all the words after the word `repealed.' "
Seanad Bye-Elections Bill, 1929—Committee.
The Dáil went into Committee.
Sections 1, 2 and 3 were agreed to.
SECTION 4.
(3) Sub-section (3) of Section 3 of the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1927 (No. 33 of 1927), is hereby repealed and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that no nomination of a candidate at a Seanad bye-election shall be valid or complete unless such candidate or his proposer or seconder on his behalf shall have delivered to the Seanad returning officer before twelve o'clock noon on the last day for receiving nominations at such bye-election an affidavit in the form set out in the Schedule to the said Act sworn by such candidate in the presence of a commissioner for oaths (as defined by the said Act) or a peace commissioner to whom he is personally known.
took the Chair.
The purpose of the amendment is to secure the repeal of the section of the Electoral Act, 1927, imposing an obligation on candidates for election to make an affidavit to the effect that they intend to comply with Article 17 of the Constitution. It may possibly be argued by the Minister for Local Government that it is foolish to endeavour to secure the repeal of that provision in relation to the Seanad bye-election if it was to continue in operation in relation to the ordinary triennial election to the Seanad or the ordinary elections to the Dáil. But all great movements have small beginnings. It may be possible to start a movement to sweep away those various restrictions which have been imposed during the past two years upon persons seeking membership of the Oireachtas.
Some two or three weeks ago the Minister for Education spoke at a public meeting in Dublin under the auspices of the League of Nations Society. He stated that the policy pursued by the Free State delegation to the League of Nations was designed to ensure that no action taken by the delegation would hamper the successors of the present Government in ascertaining the Irish national position. That statement indicated a very welcome change of policy on behalf of the present Government, and most of us were glad to see the report of it in the Press. I want to suggest, however, on this amendment, that the mentality thus displayed should be translated into action in internal affairs as well as in external affairs. We are giving the Government the opportunity in this amendment, if they are anxious, as they have said, not to take any action designed to impede their successors in ascertaining the national position. They can take a small step in that direction by deleting the provision in the Electoral Act of 1927, designed to ensure that persons cannot be nominated for election to the Dáil or Seanad unless they make an affidavit to the effect that they intend to comply with Article 17 of the Constitution. I think it is generally admitted that compliance with Article 17 of the Constitution is not mandatory by the Treaty of 1921. The Treaty of 1921 does specify that if an oath is taken by members of the Dáil and Seanad it shall be in the form specified in the Treaty, but it does not provide that no members can be elected to, or sit in, the Dáil or Seanad unless they take that oath. The one thing that Article of the Treaty ensures, so long as it remains in operation, is that no other oath except the one mentioned there can be taken by members of the Dáil or Seanad. If, therefore, Article 17 of the Constitution were deleted, or if compliance with that Article was not enforced, it could not be held by those who advocate, and continue to advocate acceptance of the Treaty, that such action would be a breach of the Treaty likely to lead to immediate and terrible war.
I do not know how far the Minister for Education, in his speech at the League of Nations Society, represented the attitude of the Executive Council, but if he was speaking for the Executive Council, I think that the request that the line of action which he claims was followed by the Free State representatives at Geneva should also be adopted in the various matters of internal concern. Of course, the vexatious provisions in the Electoral Act of 1927 are not the only restrictions imposed upon people in this country. They are not made mandatory by the Treaty, but are designed to facilitate the political progress of the anti-Republican Party that has at present a majority in the country. Whatever case they could make to their own supporters for the creation of these restrictions at the time they were originally devised, I think they cannot now, in the changed circumstances at the moment, be sustained. In fact, if all the circumstances were taken into account, a very strong case could be made for the abolition of all those various tests and declarations that are required from civil servants, local government officials, members of the Dáil and Seanad.
I think the Deputy is now travelling very wide of his amendment.
What the amendment is seeking is the deletion in sub-section (3) of Section 4 of all words after the word "repealed." That, if agreed to, will effect the repeal of the section I referred to in the Electoral Act, 1927. I am making, in that connection, a case for the abolition of the restrictions imposed by that Act based upon the necessity for abolishing all the restrictions imposed by various Acts of a similar character. If, however, it is the wish of the Chair that I should confine myself to this particular restriction, I am quite willing to do so. I do not intend to delay the Dáil discussing it, because I think the case is quite clear. The circumstances that existed in 1927, when that Act was passed, do not exist now. The need for that affidavit does not now exist at all. To keep it in existence is merely to attempt to make the greatest possible number of vexatious regulations designed to impede political opponents. I thought when I read the statement, to which I have referred, of the Minister for Education, that we were going to witness in this session in the Dáil a change of attitude on the part of the Ministry. I do not know whether that hope is to be realised or not. If it is not, I think the ordinary members of the Dáil, who possibly have a greater amount of horse sense on matters of this kind than members of the Ministry, should indicate their views by supporting this amendment. Obviously no great harm can be done if persons seeking election at a bye-election of the Seanad have got to go through the formality of having to make an affidavit before being nominated. I do not think the foundations of the State will be destroyed if the amendment is carried, and neither do I think that any great revolution in national affairs will follow. It will merely be the abolition of an unnecessary formality and the simplification of the method of election.
I would direct attention to the Electoral Amendment Act, 1927. In Section 4 of that Act it is provided that when a person is elected for the Oireachtas if he does not take his seat and make the necessary compliance with Article 17 of the Constitution inside two months he automatically vacates his seat and a vacancy is created. The present Bill provides that a person before being nominated as a candidate in a bye-election for the Seanad shall declare his intention that he proposes to comply with Article 17 of the Constitution. This provision of the Bill is to ensure that persons will not be nominated for purely destructive political purposes as members of the Seanad, possibly be elected, and then refuse to take their seats and bring about a further election. If the Deputy wants to do what he suggests and remove the necessity for complying with the Constitution then I think he should attack it face on and bring in legislation to remove Article 17, or at any rate to deal with the Electoral Amendment Act, 1927. It is only wasting time unnecessarily to deal with the matter in the way he proposes, and preventing the case he wants to make from being fully, properly and frankly made.
May I point out that the Minister prefaced his remarks by making a much better case for the amendment than I did? He pointed out that Section 4 of the Electoral Amendment Act, 1927, provides that if a person does not take his seat within two months the seat is declared vacant. May I also point out this is a Bill providing a certain procedure for the filling of vacancies in the Seanad? It involves that any person to be nominated must be proposed and seconded, and in addition, receive the assent of ten other elected members of the Dáil and Seanad. Therefore, only those can be nominated who have the support of twelve who have already accepted membership of the Dáil or Seanad, and the possibility of any such number of Deputies or Senators nominating a person for the Seanad with the intention that he should not take his seat is, I think, very remote. Even if such a remote possibility could come about the only inconvenience that would be caused would be that a second election would have to be held after the lapse of two months. I suggest that the formality of having persons nominated sign an affidavit is out of date and should be abolished. There is no necessity for maintaining it.
Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 55.
Tá
- Aird, William P.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Crowley, James.
- Doherty, Eugene.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Dwyer, James.
- Egan, Barry M.
- Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Gorey, Denis J.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Kelly, Patrick Michael.
- Keogh, Myles.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Reilly, John J.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Shaw, Patrick W.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- Vaughan, Daniel.
- White, John.
- Wolfe, George.
- Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Carty, Frank.
- Cassidy, Archie J.
- Clancy, Patrick.
- Colbert, James.
- Colohan, Hugh.
- Cooney, Eamon.
- Corkery, Dan.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Doyle, Edward.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- French, Seán.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Kerlin, Frank.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Mullins, Thomas.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipperary).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.
Question—"That Section 4 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
The remaining sections and Title also put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be reported without amendment.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 6th November.