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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Oct 1929

Vol. 32 No. 4

Private Deputies' Business. - Proposed Wheat Control Board.

I move:—

That it is the opinion of the Dáil that proposals for legislation should be introduced by the Executive Council to provide:—

(a) for the establishment of a Wheat Control Board, which shall be a limited liability company, charged with the purchase of imported wheat for re-sale to millers and the fixing of a minimum price to be paid by Saorstát millers for home-grown wheat sold to them for milling purposes;

(b) for the prohibition of the importation of wheat by any person other than the Wheat Control Board and such persons as may be authorised by the Board;

(c) for the payment by the Board to Saorstát millers of such sums as may be necessary to make good the difference between the price paid by the millers for home-grown wheat and its market value compared with Pacific wheats, taking into account its higher moisture content;

(d) that the Minister for Finance be authorised to subscribe to the capital of the Company, and to make good any losses incurred by the Company in the administration of the scheme, out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas;

(e) that the importation of flour be permitted only under licence issued by the Wheat Control Board, and subject to an import duty: provided that there shall be no restrictions on flour imported for biscuit manufacture.

The proposal is that a Wheat Control Board be set up, to be a limited liability company; that the Board would have the sole right of importing wheat; that it would have the right of selling that wheat at its own price to millers in Saorstát Eireann; that it would have the right to fix the subsidy on home-grown wheat that would be given the miller, taking into account the difference in value between home-grown wheat and imported Pacific wheat; that it would have the right to fix the percentage of home grown wheat to be used by millers, and, further, that it would have the power to regulate the import of flour. We have been asked why we have chosen wheat as the crop to be picked out for special mention. We believe that it is the primary purpose of agriculture in this country to produce human food, and wheat being the raw material of the principal item of human food, we believe that special attention should be paid to the production of wheat for our own use.

The import of wheat and wheat products is a very large item. In the year 1927 it cost this country £7,393,000, and in 1928 £6,043,000. Evidently the reason for the falling off in 1928 was that there were big imports towards the end of 1927 owing to the fact that the question of a tariff on flour was under consideration by the Tariff Commission. We may take the normal import of wheat and wheat products as being valued at about £6,500,000. We believe that it should be our purpose in our agricultural policy to provide the greatest possible comfort for the largest possible population on the land. From figures that were supplied at the Economic Committee we find that a larger population could be maintained on land under tillage than on land under pasture. The figures showed that a hundred acres of potatoes will maintain 418 people, one hundred acres of wheat 208 people, one hundred acres of the finest pasture devoted to the production of beef, 40 people, and of pasture devoted to the production of milk, 41 people. We find further, when we compare this country with one which has a much larger percentage of tillage, namely Denmark, from the table which is given in the Trade and Shipping statistics for 1928, page 13, Roman numerals, that Denmark maintains a population of 478 per thousand acres, as against 246 in the Free State. In addition to that we find that Denmark has a net export, that is exports of agricultural products over imports, of agricultural products of £5 10s. per acre while our exports are £1 12s. 8d. per acre.

If we look into the question of wheat and the production of bread stuffs alone, and take the production of wheat and rye in Denmark as against the production of wheat here, we find that Denmark actually produces sufficient wheat and rye to maintain her total population, while we produce enough to maintain 3½ per cent of our population. The Danish people, however, use a considerable portion of the wheat and rye produced for feeding farm stock, so that actually they import some wheat. We import £2 7s. 6d. worth of wheat per head of the population as against £1 8s. worth per head in Denmark, the difference being that Denmark tills 65.5 per cent. of her land while we till only 12½ per cent. We believe that increased tillage is necessary to maintain a larger population here if we are to follow the example of countries like Denmark, which has practically a completely agricultural population like our own. If we want to maintain a larger population and maintain it in greater comfort we must turn to increased tillage.

In order to increase tillage we believe if we deal with the question of wheat that we will be dealing with one of the most important items in that tillage programme. It would not be advisable, I believe, to deal with oats and barley, for instance, in the same way as we propose to deal with wheat. Those who produce wheat here at the present time, and they are very few, produce it principally as a cash crop. On the other hand, a big percentage of the oats and barley produced is not produced as a cash crop, but for use on the farm for feeding. If wheat is being produced at present as a cash crop, under this scheme no difficulty would arise, because the producer would naturally bring his wheat for sale to the nearest miller. On the other hand, if the scheme were to be applied to oats or barley a difficulty would arise, because the buyers of oats or barley would be feeders of live stock, and we would have farmers selling oats to one another in order to get the subsidy, and that might merely result in an exchange of grain between one farmer and another. In that way these two crops would not lend themselves to this scheme. There are, however, other proposals for these two crops, but I need not go into them now. Another reason why we consider that the growing of wheat would be a benefit to this country is the fact that it would give employment where employment is badly needed, because there are many people unemployed in the rural districts, just as there are in the urban districts, and many people are only partially employed in the rural districts.

Even taking the official figures that were supplied by the Department of Agriculture it is estimated that the amount of manual labour necessary for the cultivation of one acre of wheat came to £2 6s. 6d. per acre. If we were to produce sufficient wheat for our own needs it was estimated that we would require about 860,000 acres, so that on the figures supplied by the Department there would be a distribution of £1,999,000 in wages.

It might be argued perhaps, and it has been argued, that the amount of wages paid, for instance, for the production of milk is just as large as would be paid for the production of wheat. But why should one be incompatible with the other? There is no reason. I have already said that Denmark has 65.6 per cent. of her land tilled, while we have only 12½ per cent. Denmark is only a little over half the size of this country, and yet, taking the figures for butter and bacon alone, Denmark, in addition to feeding twice the population per thousand acres that we have, is able to export £48,000,000 worth of butter and bacon, which, of course are her principal exports of agricultural produce, while the Free State total exports amount to £30,000,000. So a country like Denmark, which has gone in so extensively for tillage, is not in any way losing her production of milk or bacon. Therefore, the argument put up to us that the wages paid in the production of milk are as good as the wages paid in the production of wheat does not arise in any way. These are some of the arguments which can be advanced why it would be a good thing for the country as apart from the farmer to produce more wheat or, in fact, to aim at the production of our total requirements in wheat.

Some time ago this question arose in the Dáil, and the Minister for Agriculture accused us of making wheat a patriotic crop owing to the fact that we tried to prove to the Dáil that it would be a good thing for this country if it were to produce sufficient wheat for our own needs. If we succeeded in proving that to the satisfaction of this House we would perhaps have proved that it was a patriotic crop. On looking back over some of the debates, I find we have no less authority for making wheat a patriotic crop than the Minister for Agriculture himself. He said in a previous debate, which I mentioned, on the Agriculture Estimate of the 4th June, 1925:

"They can produce wheat for 7/- or 8/- per cwt. cheaper than they can purchase flour. They can, if they wish, bring back the tillage and pasture land into good heart. They must think in this direction, and, if they do, it will be all the better for the country. If I am wrong in that, I want to be shown where I am wrong."

There was not a Deputy even in the Farmers' Party at the time that could show him where he was wrong. If, therefore, we advocate the growing of wheat, and try to show the advantages it would have for this country, there is no reason why we should be accused of making wheat the only patriotic crop, because, as I have shown already, it is quite possible to produce more bacon and more butter with increased tillage, and I hope before I am finished to show that it will be quite possible, and in fact almost necessary, to produce more of other crops if you go in for increased production of wheat.

To show that it would be an advantage to the country to grow wheat is not getting us perhaps any further. Until we can show the farmer that it is an advantage to him we cannot get the wheat grown. At the Economic Committee, when this question was fully discussed and gone into in detail, we were asked to suggest a figure that would induce the farmers of Ireland to grow more wheat. We suggested that we could base our calculation on the figure of 30/- per barrel. We have never held that we were in a position to say definitely what would be sufficient to pay a farmer to get sufficient wheat grown, because if we were able to tell all those things there would be no necessity for a Wheat Control Board. But we said we can base our calculations on that and see how they would work out.

The figures supplied to us from the Department of Agriculture at the Economic Committee showed that the profit to be derived by farmers in this country from one acre of pasture when that pasture was put to the production of milk was £3 8s. 9d., and when it was put to the production of beef, £3 9s. 3d. per acre, and when it was put to the production of wheat, £2 18s. 7d. an acre, and oats, £1 16s. 6d. That was on the basis of wheat being sold at 24/- per barrel. If that were changed to 30/- per barrel there would be a profit of £5 3s. 6d. per acre, and that would compare very favourably even with the profits on this acre of pasture. I think some of the members here who have read the report will recollect that there were certain points made on this acre of pasture. For instance, the acre of pasture was supposed to produce 3 cwt. of beef in one particular year —that a bullock of 7 cwt., I think, going in would come out at the end of the year at 10 cwt. on the one acre of pasture. I think there are very few Deputies here who would be able to stand by that figure and would be able to say that, as they know the land of this country, it would be capable of that production of 3 cwt. of beef in one year Further, this bullock was to be bought at 36/- per cwt. and sold at 38/- per cwt. It is a most unusual thing in this country for the graziers, who usually buy their cattle in April or May and sell them at the end of the summer, to get a higher price per cwt. when selling them than they had to pay when buying. The case for some years past has always been the other way about. Then we find that the cow just taken into calculation was a 600-gallon cow, which is not the average cow at all, and the 600 gallons were sold at 8d. per gallon. I am not sure if it is the average either, but Deputies from the creamery districts will say that they are not getting 8d. per gallon, even taking into account the value of the separated milk. This cow which is producing 600 gallons of milk at 8d. per gallon is to be fed for the whole winter at £4 15s. 3d. If she gets hay and turnips to keep her for the winter, that is as far as £4 15s. 3d. will go, and it is not a proper way to treat a 600-gallon cow.

Some of the departments of agriculture in the various universities have been working at the accountancy of various farms, and I have read the report of two of them. One of them was from the Department of Agriculture, Cambridge University. It is a book entitled "Four Years Farming in East Anglia," by R. Carslaw, a member of Cambridge University School of Agriculture. He states: "On holdings where the production of fat beef and wholesale milk were the chief pursuits loss ensued." The average profit over all the farms which were accounted for by him was 8/- per acre. The profit from wheat was £2 per acre. There is a similar report from the University of Leeds by A.G. Ruston, accounts kept from the years 1921 to 1927. There were 55 or 56 farms. The last paragraph in his report is:

"Although the animal products represented 67.7 per cent. of the output on the successful farms, the profit derived from the stock was only 51 per cent. of the profit made. On the other hand, the profit made on the crops was 49 per cent. of the total profit, though the total crop products only amounted to 32.3 per cent. of the total output. From this it can be understood that the farmer who relies mainly on the rearing and feeding of cattle may easily find himself in an unsound financial position."

In this particular case where £2 per acre of profit was made on these 55 or 56 farms over a period of six years, wheat was produced and sold at the prices which ruled for these six years. It may be held that the price of wheat was higher then, that it was high enough to give a profit, and that it has not been so high since 1927. I saw, however, on the 23rd October—a few days ago—an interview in the "Daily Express" with the Secretary of the National Association of Corn and Agricultural Merchants, Mr. Herbert Smith. He said that if the farmers got 48/- to 50/- a quarter for their wheat they could give good wages and would be encouraged to develop. That would be 28/- or 29/- per barrel. Some of the Deputies here will be able to bear me out in this statement. A few weeks ago we were down in South Wexford, in a co-operative store. A number of farmers were present and were explaining to us how they were disposing of their grain to this co-operative store. The question of wheat arose, and one farmer told us that he had grown 20 acres of wheat for several years up to last year. Last year was the first year he ceased to grow it. He told us that so far as he personally was concerned he would be prepared to go back to the production of wheat if there was a guaranteed price of 25/- per barrel. He said he believed that would pay him better, or pay any farmer better, than 16/- per barrel for barley. So that we are still, at any rate, within the 30/- per barrel mark.

Mr. Hogan

Why did he cease growing it?

On account of the unstaple market, not so much on account of the price.

Mr. Hogan

It has never been below 27/- or 28/-.

It has, this year.

It was 24/- last year.

Mr. Hogan

Milling wheat?

It was 24/6 this year.

Mr. Hogan

Not for milling wheat.

However, that question can be settled by some of the Deputies on these Benches who had to sell milling wheat this year. They will be able to say what they were offered for it. In the speech of the Minister for Agriculture which I quoted a few minutes ago, he gave it as his opinion that wheat could be grown profitably by the farmers in the year 1925, when prices were higher than they are now, at 30/- or less per barrel. He said:

"The farmer may have two or three sons who would not be working terribly hard. What has that man been giving for flour, for instance, for the last two or three years? He was paying £1 or £1 0s. 6d. for the bag. He could produce that for about 12/- off his own land if that land was in good heart."

I presume the Minister meant a cwt. of wheat would correspond with a bag of flour. That is, if ground into wholemeal. At that rate it could be produced for 30/- per barrel. In the same statement he said that barley could be produced at 8/- per cwt. Our information at the Economic Committee, from the figures supplied by the Department of Agriculture, was that there was very little difference in the cost of production of wheat, barley and oats. So that it is questionable if there could be that difference of 12/- for wheat against 8/- for barley. The production of wheat would appear, therefore, from any authorities that we can find on the subject, to be a profitable thing to the farmer at 30/- per barrel. If we could induce the Dáil to pass this resolution and have a Wheat Control Board set up, and if that Wheat Control Board, after going into the question and consulting the various interests, which we did not do in the Economic Committee—millers, bakers, and so on—were to decide and fix the price of home-grown wheat at 30/- per barrel, I am quite confident that they would get a considerable amount, if not all, of the wheat required in this country.

A further advantage of this scheme, if adopted by the farmers of the country, would be that they would have cheaper offals. At the present time we know how the offal trade is regulated, that offals come principally from Britain, and if offals at Liverpool, say, are 7/- per cwt. they will be at least 8/- per cwt. in Dublin, and in the counties surrounding Dublin, which get their supplies from Dublin, there will be an increased charge, so that by the time the farmer in the midlands gets his offals it will probably mean 10/- per cwt. Under this scheme of increased acreage of wheat there would naturally be mills for the grinding of wheat set up more generally throughout the country, and the result would be that these mills would have to sell the offals more cheaply than they are sold at present, because the sale of offals depends, like everything else, on demand and supply. If we were getting all our wheat ground in the country, even if not grown here, we would find that the demand for the offals would not be equal to the supply, and at the commencement, at any rate, offals would fall suddenly in price. They would probably settle at 1/- or 2/- per cwt. below their present price when compared with the price of maize, oats, barley and other feeding stuffs.

These are, in general at any rate, some of the arguments that might be adduced for the growing of wheat here. There are, however, many and various arguments put up against the growing of wheat. I am sure the opposition to this scheme is crystallised in the Majority Report of the Economic Committee against the proposals for the growing of wheat. In that report there are thirty-one pages of objections. Some of these objections are, in my opinion, altogether unfounded, and some of them, I believe, have been suggested by minds prejudiced against the growing of wheat. For instance, the very first objection tells us that "flours manufactured from imported wheats, if sold without restriction, would appeal more strongly to the public taste than flour made wholly or partially from native wheat—that the people of this country will demand foreign wheat as long as they can get it, and that if we allow certain millers to grind foreign wheat only that they will be in unfair competition with millers who have to use a certain mixture of native wheat." First of all, of course, that is not in the scheme. Even so, I do not know if even that contention could be borne out by the fact, because we find, for the last three or four years at any rate, reports from the Department of Agriculture itself pointing out the good varieties of wheat that can be grown in this country. For instance, in the Journal of the Department in the first quarter of this year there is a report on Red Stettin wheat grown in Co. Tipperary which stated: "The flour produced from this variety of wheat again showed that it is capable of producing loaves of good size and flavour, and that in this respect it compares favourably with bakers' flour." In the Tariff Report we have the same thing from Messrs. Odlum & Odlum who were given flour milled from native wheat to report upon. Their report stated: "Wheat of the type reported on above can be incorporated in the average Irish millers' grist to great advantage both in the matter of colour and flavour.""To great advantage," they state; they do not go to the length of making any excuse for the native wheat; they do not try to excuse it by saying it was almost as good, but they say it can be incorporated to great advantage. So that at least we have millers with the reputation of Messrs. Odlum and Odlum. who have evidently taken up this question with an unprejudiced mind, and have reported that the native wheat is quite suitable for incorporating in the ordinary millers' grist.

Another very strong point made by the Majority Report was that we do not grow strong wheat in this country. They make the point that "popular taste demands bakers' bread of a kind to be made only from flour milled from grist composed wholly or almost wholly of strong wheat." That is not a fact. The popular taste may demand a certain sort of bread, but it is not a fact that the popular taste demands bread made from flour which is derived wholly or almost wholly from strong wheat, because the popular taste has never been supplied with any such thing. If the signatories to this Majority Report had known anything about the subject before signing the report, they should have known that no baker incorporates more than 60 per cent of flour from strong wheat in the mixture. There is 40 per cent. of flour from weak wheat in all bakers' mixtures, so that the popular taste cannot be demanding a thing that it does not know. Then they go on to say "neither this variety"—that is Manitoban—"of wheat nor any other of the strong Canadian wheats is reasonably productive in Saorstát Eireann." If we can produce a strong wheat, whether Manitoban or Red Fife, or some other strong wheat, we ought to be quite satisfied. We know that the millers are satisfied, that the bakers are satisfied, and that, in all probability, the popular taste will be quite satisfied, because the people will not know the difference between the two.

First of all, I should like to quote on this question a gentleman who was then an official of the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Caffrey. Reading a paper in March of last year before the Congress on Wheat Growing, he said: "Ireland was as capable of producing wheats well adapted to modern milling methods and perfectly conformable to the modern taste as she was when the stone mill was in vogue. From the old Red Stettin wheat which belongs to the County Tipperary, a selection had been obtained which was a good cropper and of excellent quality. Having been under test for several years, it has always produced a beautiful quality of grain, and it was evidently as capable of producing a loaf of as good volume, colour, flavour and crust as ordinary strong bakers' flour. In appearance and quality the grain resembled Manitoba No. 2. It also possessed good winter hardness and a good yield on suitable land, but the straw was not very strong, and it would not, therefore, be a suitable variety for cultivation on rich soils. Some millers have stated that this wheat is worth five shillings or six shillings per barrel more than the ordinary wheat grown in Ireland. The best sample of wheat grown in Ireland was grown last year, and some of the best lots came from the counties Kerry and Clare."

A few days ago we had also a report on this year's crop of Red Stettin wheat. A demonstration was given by a Mr. O'Donoghue, who has a farm near Kanturk, of certain crops to a number of farmers in the district. The report says: "The new variety of Red Stettin greatly impressed, and, judging from its appearance, it is very likely to solve the problem of winter wheat varieties best suited to our climate and to our soil conditions." We need not, however, lose any more of our time over this question of strong wheat, because, as I have already stated, the amount of strong wheat required for bakers' bread is only 60 per cent., and the other 40 per cent. comes from weak wheat. The amount of our flour used by bakers is only one-third of the total coming into the country, and all the flour used for domestic purposes—that is, 66 per cent. of the flour coming into the country is from weak wheat. So that, putting the two together, we find that 80 per cent. of the wheat required in this country is of the weak variety. It is only when we reach the stage of growing 80 per cent. our own wheat in this country that we will be up against the question of strong wheat.

We find also, from a table supplied as to the improvement in the production of various crops for the last seventy or eighty years, that the improvement in the production of wheat has been better than the improvement in the production of either oats or barley. The yield of wheat in the years 1847-1860 was only 12.9 cwts. per acre, whereas in the years 1921-28 it was 19.1. That is a much better increase than in either oats or barley. The majority who signed the report tried to explain this away, saying that the reason why the yield of wheat was better now in comparison with those years back between 1847 and 1860 was because of the small amount of land under wheat. In other words, that the best land was given to the production of wheat, and that if the area was increased we would not have the same good yield. In that connection I would like to come back again to what Mr. Caffrey said in that paper. He, speaking as an official of the Department of Agriculture, said "that no unsupported theories should be allowed to prevent farmers from producing as large a proportion as possible of the 500,000 tons of wheat which are necessary to feed our population. It had been proved by his division of the Department of Agriculture that not only could good quality wheat be grown in this country, but that it can be grown all over the country. It was difficult to maintain that any country could remain politically independent if it was of necessity forced to rely for its very existence upon imported food supplies. There were no other cereals, or, in fact, no other agricultural crop, which could be cultivated under as wide a range of soils and climates as could wheat."

The majority who signed this report stated the objections in tabular form against the growing of wheat from the farmers' point of view. They say that the first thing that must be taken into consideration is the economy of the farm. Of course that is not disputed; it must be taken into consideration. It says "wheat is regarded as a more exhausting crop on the soil than other cereals." There was a good deal of controversy about this statement before. It appeared to be taken for granted that that is so, but we should not fall into the error that we have been warned against by Mr. Caffrey of the "unsupported theory." There is one authority at least that I could call in against that theory on this occasion, and that is the authority of the "Irish Times." Their correspondent—he is also it appears correspondent to the "Daily Telegraph"—visited Denmark and he tells us that they have 46 per cent. of their land under cereals and that they have a yield of 23.8 cwts. of wheat per acre. He goes on to say that they have 17 per cent. of their land under roots and then winds up. "And the observer notices an almost complete absence of the dirty field and the starved piece." So that the field was neither starved nor exhausted after all this tillage and neither was it dirty with weeds as has been asserted by the majority of reports. However, we cannot, I suppose, place our whole reliance upon a correspondent of that sort so we must leave that a disputed question whether it is a more exhausting crop or not.

The next objection is the point about the field growing wheat likely to be more foul with weeds than under any other crop. Personally I have not seen that. It may be the case in some parts of the country but for the counties with which I am rather intimately acquainted so far as agriculture goes—Wicklow and Wexford—I have not seen any wheat patch that was any more foul with weeds than a patch under oats or barley. I think it depends on whether the crop is a good one or not. If the crop is a good one weeds cannot grow, if the crop is not good there will be weeds. But the same applies to any other crop.

The next thing from the farmer's point of view is that he is limited in the particular area that he can put under wheat because of the fact that he must have land suitable for the growing of wheat. Of course that applies to every crop; you must have land suitable for that particular crop, itself, but, certainly, that argument could be brought forward with much more force against barley or potatoes than against wheat—perhaps not so much against oats. Then they say "If corn is grown as a cash crop the return likely to be derived from a wheat crop as compared with a crop of oats or barley," and so on. But even taking the price for wheat as it was without any subsidy, and taking the yield of the three crops wheat, oats and barley in 1924-5-6-7 we find that the acre of wheat was worth £12 4s. 2d, the acre of barley £9 6s. 11d. and the acre of oats £7 10s. 7d. so that as a cash crop wheat was much superior to the other two, and that without any subsidy. Then they go on to this other vexed question of the nurse crop. It has been stated by many that wheat is not as good a nurse crop as either of the other two.

We find, however, in connection with that, that the only witness who was examined before the Economic Committee, and who had grown a considerable quantity of wheat every year, was the manager of the Agricultural College at Athenry. He told us that he saw no difference whatever between the meadows following wheat and the meadows following oats or barley. As far as my personal experience goes in the County Wicklow, where wheat is practically invariably followed by grass, I would say that it is considered by the farmers of that county as good a nurse crop as any of the others.

resumed the Chair.

The next objection is that wheaten straw cannot be used for fodder like oats or barley straw. There are two answers to that. The first is that some of the witnesses who came before us, County Instructors from the counties of Tipperary and Waterford principally, said that it was quite a common practice, some years ago, to feed wheaten straw to stock, with what result I cannot say, because we do not see it done now. Even apart from that, it is always necessary for a farmer to have a certain amount of straw for bedding for his stock, and it is not likely that the amount of wheaten straw will be too much for his requirements. The next statement is that there is no really prolific variety of spring wheat available. That, perhaps, is quite true, but we hope the Department of Agriculture will make that right. The report also says that "there is greater risk of total or partial failure of crops in the case of wheat than in the case of other tillage crops." There was a questionnaire sent out on this subject to the three agricultural colleges—Albert, Clonakilty and Athenry. Taking an average year, the questions asked were (1) what was the percentage of total failure in the wheat crop in each of the three colleges; (2) what was the percentage of partial failure— partial failure being described as 50 per cent.—and the answer from the three colleges to each of the questions was none, so that the evidence, as far as we could get it, was against this statement, that there was a greater danger of partial or total failure in the case of the wheat crop. Talking of the limited area that can be put under wheat, and taking into account the farmer's economy, the report says that the growing of wheat on lea land is not attended with success, save in the case of land which has been under grass for one year only. Now, I believe that is also what Mr. Caffrey referred to as an unsupported theory. I do not know if there is any Deputy here who will support that; that wheat cannot be grown on lea land except on lea land that is only one year under grass.

Mr. Hogan

Yes, there is one.

The report says also that wheat cannot be grown on stubble; that is, if oats or barley is grown on lea that it is not possible or advisable to follow that crop with wheat.

Mr. Hogan

It does not say anything of the kind. Is the Deputy referring to the first statement in paragraph 19?

It says that the growing of wheat on lea land is not attended with success.

Mr. Hogan

That is a different thing from not being grown. Do you not agree with that?

I have never seen it stated before in any place or by anybody except in this report.

Did the Deputy know it?

No, I did not know it. I therefore referred to it as an unsupported theory.

If the Deputy were a wheat grower he should know it.

I am a wheat grower. The report says: "On the other hand, the area of land capable of producing wheat satisfactorily as a second corn crop is limited." On that I wish to say that if we are to pay any attention to the witnesses who were called before us at the Economic Committee, that point was not only contradicted, but at least one County Instructor said that he had seen wheat grown for two years in succession—not only wheat grown after oats and barley—but wheat grown after wheat on the same lea land in the counties of Tipperary and Waterford. Another objection—I do not know whether it is really meant to be an objection, but at any rate it is a consideration—says that "unless the price of live stock and of live stock commodities, to the production of which the country is, beyond question, admirably adapted, should fall considerably in relation to that of wheat," and so on, that wheat would not be produced at the price. As I have already stated, I do not see how one interferes with the other. In countries like Denmark, which have a much higher percentage tilled than we have, they are able to produce more live stock products than we are. Therefore, why the question of replacing live stock by the growing of wheat should come in I cannot see, because it is evidently possible to do both at the same time. Paragraph 25, in brief, means that if we ask our farmers to grow more wheat they will be compelled to sow more roots in order to comply with their proper rotation; that it will be necessary then for them to buy more live stock to consume those roots, and that, the wheat being sold, it will further be necessary for them to grow more cereals to feed the live stock. According to this not only would our farmers be compelled to grow more roots, but they would be compelled to increase their tillage to a considerable extent. If they were induced to grow more wheat under this scheme we would at least achieve one of the principal objects we had in view in putting down this motion, and that is the increase of tillage in the country.

It says that in good husbandry the proportion of cereals to roots should be in the proportion of two to one. If we look at the statistics area we will see that cereals covered 814,000 acres and roots 700,000 acres, so that there is, keeping within the limits of good husbandry, room for expansion to the extent of almost another 600,000 acres of cereals, and it would not be absolutely necessary to change the farmer's economy, as far as rotation goes, to produce practically the amount of wheat we require. If what the majority report says is true, that it would change the economy to such an extent as to lead to considerably increased tillage all over the country, then all the better. Another point is that although the average price of wheat in the three years 1924-5-6, exceeded 30/- per barrel, the average area of wheat annually grown did not exceed 30,000 acres. I think the argument just used of the relative price of live stock, and more especially the relative price of other grain crops grown as compared with wheat would have a bearing on that, but I believe apart from that the most important point about this whole matter is the fixed price. The farmer, for instance, sowing his wheat in 1926 did not know, very likely, what he would get for his 1925 crop, for usually it is necessary for the farmer to sow his wheat almost immediately after he has threshed the crop of the previous year, and he does not definitely know what his wheat is worth.

The report goes on to say that the big danger in this scheme is that it would not lead to increased tillage, and that in fact it would lead to substitution—that wheat be substituted for barley and oats. If the majority who signed this report do not turn out to be right, that it will upset the farmer's economy by making him go into increased tillage, they are sure to be right in this, that barley and oats will be substituted by wheat. Again, the report states that "it would be a desirable thing in some dairying districts if we had more tillage, and the production of wheat as a cash crop would not tend towards a better economy in such farms," because it states: "It is unlikely that farmers will turn to the production of wheat as long as they make a profit out of their present system of farming." I have already pointed out what the most optimistic figures of the Department of Agriculture show as the profit on dairy farming or the production of beef, and it certainly cannot reach the figure of £5 3s. 6d. per acre which would be reached by wheat on the figures supplied to us at 30/- per barrel.

They go on to tell us that this is going to be a profit to certain districts only, that is, the wheat producing districts, and they remind us that the farmers themselves, including the farmers in the Gaeltacht, will have to pay. It is quite true that the farmers themselves will have to pay for a considerable part of this subsidy, but the very same argument could be used against all the other schemes brought in here with much more force. It could be used with much more force against beet, which is localised to seven or eight counties around Carlow, or against any money spent on the development of creameries, which are principally localised in two or three counties in the South of Ireland. Wheat would be grown to some extent, at least, in every county in Ireland, and it would be better distributed than either beet or creameries are distributed at present. At the conclusion of the majority report they say "that the farmers who are making most money for themselves and creating most wealth for the country as a whole are those who do mixed farming and who are tilling a much higher percentage of their land than the average. These farmers are the minority."

One of the principal arguments put against us on this was that in our scheme we were attempting to point out things that might be done in agriculture, that the farmers know their own business best, and that the farmers will do what pays them the best. We find that the seven gentlemen who signed this report point out that the farmers who are doing the best for themselves as well as for the country are the people who are going in for mixed farming. Still they say they are in the minority in the country, so that in that particular case, at least, the majority of farmers do not know what is best for themselves. The point is that the Ministers can discover certain things where the farmers do not know their business best, but if any other person attempts to point out any such thing he is told the farmers know their own business best.

That is, the good ones.

They go on to say that we made a ridiculous claim at the Economic Committee when talking about the possibility of this country being left without food in case of the interruption of communications between Great Britain and Ireland. The case was mentioned of a strike that occurred a couple of years ago. They told us that the difficulty would not be how to get food into Ireland, but how to get it out of it; that the food could come from other places such as Canada and the Argentine, and that our difficulty would be to get food out to Great Britain. If that is the case, if there is any possibility that we could ever be up against a difficulty like that, we should try to alter our economy in some way. If there is ever the possibility that we may be in the position that we will require to get wheat from the Argentine, the United States or Canada, that we would have no money to pay for the wheat because Great Britain could not take our cattle or our bacon, then we should try to alter our position somewhat.

It seems to me that the easiest way to alter that position is to try and produce the wheat, or whatever else we may require, for our own needs in this country. They tell us that we could easily exist on the food in the country for any length of time and, if we were put to it, we could turn to the sowing of wheat ourselves. We find, however, that the average amount of wheat which we would have on hands in this country, in the case of an interruption of communications, would not be sufficient to sow as seed to produce a crop capable of maintaining the population for anything like twelve months. Why we should be in a better position to compete in the case of beef, butter, bacon, eggs, or anything else in the British market, against the whole world than we are in the case of our own market for grain, wheat or anything else, I cannot see. It is a puzzle to me why we should not direct our efforts in that direction and try to produce these commodities ourselves. In the majority report they are, of course, certain to be right in some things. In one part of the report they say, for instance, that the subsidy is going to be too costly, that it will amount to a million, and that the farmers and others will have to pay for it. In another part of the report, however, they say that the farmers will not grow wheat, and that, therefore, there will be no subsidy at all. They say also in regard to the amount of wheat grown that the fact that the area under wheat has remained constant, for 1924, 1925 and 1926 in or about 30,000 acres, shows that the price does not tempt the farmer, because the price in some of these years was over 30/- a barrel, so that no price would induce the farmer to grow more.

In another part of the report they say that in some years the farmer cannot grow wheat owing to the bad season. They say that 1926 was a bad year, but, in spite of the assertion that in some years farmers cannot grow wheat owing to the bad season, the area under wheat has remained constant. In one part of the report they state that it will not lead to increased tillage, that there will be nothing but substitution, and that the farmer who is going to grow wheat will get out of barley or oats. Then again in another part of the report they say that the whole scheme of farming will be upset, that the farmer will have to grow more roots in order to rotate wheat, and in order to find more consumption for roots will have to increase his live stock, grow more cereals, and the result will be that he will have to grow three or four times as much as before. We can take it, of course, that there are alternatives to the report, so that if they are not right in one way they will be right in another. Another thing to which attention was drawn in the report was that not only would it put up the price by the people having to pay the subsidy, but also that the price of bread to the consumer would remain at its present level when it should fall, or that it would go up when it should remain at its present level. If we examine the report of the Tribunal on Prices we will find that it was stated that the 4 lb. loaf was selling in Limerick at 9d., in Dublin, Waterford and Sligo at 10d., in Dundalk at 10½d., and in Cork and Galway at 11d. If the 4 lb. loaf could be sold in Limerick at that time at 9d. there is no reason why it should not be sold in Dublin at the same price, and no reason was given why it should not.

That would have made a difference in the price of a barrel of wheat of 5s. 3d., so that here we had one of these various Commissions, which have been set up during the last few years to enquire into this question, giving an instance where the consumers of bread in Dublin are paying at the rate of 5s. 3d. per barrel of wheat too much, and in Cork and Galway at the rate of 10s. 6d. too much. Nothing has been done to remedy that state of affairs since the Commission reported. Objection is made here to a scheme which may increase the price of a barrel of wheat by 3s. 6d., and even a little more but not much more. We have the objection put up that not only will the people have to pay the subsidy in that case but also that they will have to pay in a secondary way, owing, perhaps, to the price of bread being kept up more than it should be. As a matter of fact when these figures were made out the price of imported wheat was at its very lowest level and since then the price has gone up. During part of this year it has gone up considerably over the price given in these figures.

Mr. Hogan

What is it now?

During the last few days the price of wheat collapsed, but there is not a collapse in Wall Street or London every day. As the Minister knows, that is a matter of only a few days. Before the collapse, for three or four months past, the price of wheat was a good deal higher than these figures disclose. The Minister in his speech on the question of a flour tariff said that the Fianna Fáil Party were wrong in their predictions that the price of wheat was going up. The Fianna Fáil Party did not make predictions in their report but said that the price of wheat at the time the report was being drawn up was abnormally low, as compared with that prevailing three or four years previously, and that it was possible that in the next few years it would be higher. The Minister said that the Fianna Fáil Party were wrong in their prediction because the price went down, but we could say that some time ago the Minister was wrong in his prediction. How is it going to work out for the twelve months? That is the question. At any rate we can say that it is not true that the price of wheat came down definitely, as was maintained by some of those who signed the majority report.

Mr. Hogan

Has it not been falling every year since 1922?

They maintain that the price of wheat had come down definitely and was going to stay down on account of the larger areas in Canada and elsewhere under this crop. That has not been proved to be true. There have, at least, been a few months during the summer when the price of wheat went much above that level, and that shows that it is possible that it may go up again. The figures given in the majority and minority reports are based on the abnormally low figures regarding imported wheat. Therefore the subsidy required to pay the farmers looks abnormally high and, according to the majority report at any rate, is sufficient to deter any Deputy from voting for this scheme. If the prices were inquired into and if the figure was made out by any Deputy on the prices ruling for the last two or three months it would be found that the subsidy would not cost as much as it was thought it would under these figures.

Mr. Hogan

Would the Deputy not give us his figures?

The figures are given in the majority and minority reports. I did not think it necessary to read out all these figures to Deputies who, I presume, have been supplied with copies of the reports.

Mr. Hogan

I am asking for your figures for the subsidy.

My figures are in the minority report, but I say that they were taken on an abnormally low price of imported wheat, and that if they were made out now the subsidy would not even be as high as the figure given in the minority report.

I second the motion.

Mr. Hogan

I am tired of wheat. I have listened to this speech from Deputy Dr. Ryan at least three times and, listening to it again to-night, I have heard the same old story. I have gathered the following things from it—(1) I have gathered that wheat is the least exhausting of all crops; (2) that it cleans the ground more than any other crop; (3) that it is an ideal nurse crop for grass; (4) that the ideal way to sow wheat is after oats or barley; (5) that wheat suits a wider variety of soil than any other crop.

I have given up contradicting the Minister. I think it does not matter what he says, but he should not tell seven deliberate misrepresentations.

Mr. Hogan

I do not want deliberately to misrepresent the Deputy. Other Deputies were listening to him. Farmer Deputies were listening, and his speech conveyed all that to me. He said it in a great many different sentences, and attacked it from a great many different angles, but that is what it all came to. Apparently the farmers of the country do not know all that. It is a pity that they do not, because, if they did, you would have the same area under wheat as under barley—in fact, a bigger area. As it is, you have only 30,000 acres of wheat and 130,000 of barley. If the farmers knew all that, you would, as I say, have a bigger area of wheat than oats, but, as they do not know it, the result is that you have only 30,000 acres of wheat and 640,000 acres of oats. I hope when it is announced in the newspapers in the morning that farmers will take advantage of it next spring, and, if they do, you would have about a million acres of wheat and about 30,000 acres of potatoes. Deputy Dr. Ryan spoke about unauthorised theories, unsupported theories. I thought that the Deputy was a practical farmer, that he had some land and farmed it, but, listening to him quoting irrelevant statistics from Denmark, the United States, Canada and elsewhere, I am reluctantly and rather sorrowfully forced to the conclusion that his only knowledge of agriculture is based on unsupported theory. Judging from the deductions which he draws from English, Danish, and Canadian agriculture, he is entirely at the mercy of Mr. So-and-So who farms in East Anglia, Herr So-and-So who farms in Denmark, and someone else in Canada. I cannot believe that any practical farmer would make the sort of speech which Deputy Dr. Ryan has just made on wheat-growing.

I quoted your Department principally.

Mr. Hogan

I am not relying on unsupported theory. I may say that we will have only to agree to differ, and let the farmers, even those on the Fianna Fáil Benches, judge, if they like to do so. I say that wheat is more exhausting and dirties the land more than any other crop. I say that a farmer who sows wheat after another grain crop is ruining his land and knows nothing about his business. I say that wheat impoverishes the land more and requires a choicer soil than any other crop. The evidence in support of that is the evidence of every farmer in this country. The figures speak for themselves. Wheat in the last sixty years has reduced in area to a greater extent than any other crop. It was 700,000 acres in 1840, and it is now 30,000, whereas there are 600,000 acres of oats, 300,000 of potatoes, and 150,000 of barley. I say that when you take that on one side, with the acknowledged facts as they are known to every farmer, that it is a difficult and exhausting crop, that it is absolutely certain that the conclusion that wheat pays the farmer less than any other crop is the true conclusion. There is no answer to that when you take on one side the admitted facts and on the other side the practice of the farmers of the country.

I asked the Deputy to state what subsidy he thinks would bring about the area of wheat which he wants. The Deputy referred to the minority report. I remember reading the figures, but I have forgotten them. I thought, however, at the time that they were perfectly absurd. I gave my figures. The Deputy says that he is quite satisfied that you could get a big area of wheat at 30/- a barrel. What has made him think that? Has he anything but unsupported theory for that statement? Irish wheat fetched 30/- a barrel for some years, but the area remained about 30,000 acres. The Deputy explained that there was no guaranteed market and that the price of oats and other cereals as well as live stock would have to be taken into account. I admit that. But surely, whatever else these figures prove, the figure of 30/- on one side and the still permanent acreage of 30,000 on the other, they cannot be adduced to prove that 30/- a barrel will secure 300,000 or 400,000 acres of wheat, which would be half the requirements of the country. In fact, they indicate the exact opposite, if they indicate anything. Even taking into account the considerations which the Deputy mentioned, they make it clear that to depend on 30/- in order to increase the acreage under wheat from 30,000 to 350,000, which is half the area required, is absolutely absurd. There is no possible chance that you would get half the area of wheat required for 30/- a barrel. We got £24 per ton for sugar beet, and how much extra land did it bring into cultivation? Very little. It merely brought about substitution. I make Deputies a present of these figures. Assuming for the sake of argument that you had a guaranteed price of 32/- per barrel, I do not believe that you would get 10,000 extra acres of wheat. Let us assume, however, that you would get half the wheat which the country required, what would that amount to by way of subsidy?

You must add to the 32/- a barrel the sum of 3/- in order to compare Irish wheat with Pacific wheat. The exact figure mentioned by the millers was 3/6. I am, however, taking 3/-, and that is to account for seven per cent. more moisture and the cost of taking it out. That gives you 35/-. What is the price of Pacific wheat at present? Assume that it is 30/-.

Assume it is 20/-.

Mr. Hogan

The fact is that it is about 27/6, but in order to make room for the rise that is to take place I will assume 30/-. I cannot deal with certainties. I know Deputy Lemass can. I have never attempted to predict what is going to happen in the future. I am putting the figures absolutely against myself. It all means a subsidy of 5/- a barrel. It would take about 4,500,000 barrels of wheat to supply the needs of the country; to supply half the needs of the country it would take 2,250,000 barrels. That would mean about £500,000 a year for the purposes of substituting one crop for another. I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned until Wednesday, 6th November.
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