Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Nov 1929

Vol. 32 No. 7

In Committee on Finance. - Civil Service (Transferred Officers) Compensation Bill, 1929—Committee (Money Resolution).

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

"Chun críche aon Achta a rithfar as tSiosón so chun daingniú do dhéanamh ar Chóaontú áirithe le n-a léirítear agus le n-a bhfoirlíontar Airtiogal X. de Chonnra 1921 agus chun socrú do dhéanamh do réir an Chó-aontuithe sin chun an bhreith dheiridh do thabhairt dá réir ar gach éileamh cúitimh, fén Airtiogal san 10, a dineadh roimhe seo no a déanfar ina dhiaidh seo ag daoine (nách baill d'fhórsa phóilíneachta) adeir gur haistríodh iad, de bhua aon aistriú seibhísí, o sheirbhís an Rialtais Bhriotáinigh go dtíseirbhís Rialtais Shealadaigh na hEireann a bhí ann le déanaí no go dtí seirbhís Rialtais Shaorstáit Eireann agus i gcóir nithe eile a ghabhann leis an mbreith dheiridh sin nó a bhaineann léi, go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú—

(a) go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróid an tOireachtas no amach as aon chiste eile ar a bhféadfar le ceart san do mhuirearú aon chúiteamh a deonfar d'Oifigigh Aistrithe fén acht san, agus

(b) go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas aon chostaisí fé n-a raghaidh Bord na Stát-Sheirbhíse (Cúiteamh) fén Acht san.

That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to confirm a certain Agreement interpreting and supplementing Article X. of the Treaty of 1921 and in pursuance of that Agreement to make provision for the final determination in accordance therewith of all claims for compensation under the said Article X. heretofore made or hereafter to be made by persons (other than members of a police force) claiming to have been transferred by virtue of any transfer of services from the service of the British Government to the service of the late Provisional Government of Ireland or of the Government of Saorstát Eireann and for other matters incidental to such final determination or in connection therewith, it is expedient to authorise:—

(a) the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas or out of any other fund which may be properly chargeable therewith of any compensation granted to Transferred Officers under such Act, and

(b) the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of any expenses incurred by the Civil Service (Compensation) Board under such Act."

As I have already said upon the Second Reading, the Bill will not involve any charge on the taxpayers.

Mr. MacEntee

Before the House accepts the motion which the Minister for Finance has moved, I think that some consideration should be given to the speech which the Minister made in winding up the debate on the Second Stage of this Bill. There was something in that speech which would be possibly generally acceptable to most parties in the House. There was, for instance, his statement that "I for my part see no reason at all why we should obstruct or in any way hinder or make difficult the action proposed to be taken by the British Government in paying that extra amount." As far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we have no objection whatsoever to the British Government making any donation or payment by way of extra allowance they may care to do or they may feel bound to do to those who were formerly members of their Civil Service in this country and helped them to carry on their administration. The relations between these two parties are really no concern of ours, and if the British Government outside this House, and without imposing any obligation on this State wishes to pay that extra compensation, we, on this side of the House, have no objection. However, it seems to us that the Minister's speech left a number of points very doubtful and very obscure, and we are anxious, before the Bill gets any further and before the Money Resolution relating to it is considered, to have those points cleared up. For instance, he said (column 667, volume 32):

"Incidentally, I am quite satisfied that this particular case, although we did not set out to destroy the appeal to the Privy Council by means of it, has in fact finished the appeals to the Privy Council."

"I think," he went on to say, "it is no longer a question of getting the British Government to agree to kill appeals to the Privy Council. It is only a question of getting them to agree to give the corpse a decent burial." If that is the case I think that we ought to permit the British Government to discharge that necessary and sanitary function of giving the corpse a decent burial. The only way we can permit them to do that is by signing its death certificate now.

If the Minister will say in this Dáil that in giving effect in this Bill to any agreement he made with a section of the Civil Service in this State he does not in any way accept the decision of the Privy Council in regard to the matters in the Wigg and Cochrane case which was referred to them, then I think he will have gone a long way towards clarifying what is at present an obscure position and will, I admit, go a long way to satisfy some of our objections to the Bill—not all of them. Possibly we would still have an objection based on Section 14. But, so far as the main purpose of the Bill is concerned, if the Minister will definitely state in this Dáil that henceforward there will be no appeals carried to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council by citizens of this State in relation to matters arising in this State or in relation to matters in which the Government or the Executive of this State is concerned, then I think that one of our major objections to this Bill will be removed. The Minister in speaking to the Bill was rather optimistic in regard to the position of appeals to the Privy Council.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely the question of appeals to the Privy Council does not arise on this Money Resolution.

Mr. MacEntee

It is germane to the Money Resolution. because the House is considering this Money Resolution in the light of the speech which the Minister made in closing the debate on the Second Stage of the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The point which the Deputy is now trying to make may be in order on the Bill, but it is certainly not in order on the Money Resolution, which is merely authorising certain payments.

Mr. MacEntee

Exactly, and naturally the Money Resolution must be read in the light of the debate which took place on the Second Stage of this Bill, in which the principle of the Bill was accepted by the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not for a moment concerned with the light in which the Deputy reads the Money Resolution. The Deputy cannot convince me that it is relevant to discuss the Privy Council on the Money Resolution.

Mr. MacEntee

I think I am not exactly discussing the Privy Council on the Money Resolution. I am discussing the attitude of the Minister to the Privy Council.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is attempting to discuss the Privy Council.

Mr. MacEntee

I confess that I am endeavouring to discuss the speech which the Minister made on the Second Stage of the Bill. I shall be compelled to ask the House to oppose this Resolution unless I get a clear statement from the Minister in regard to the matters which he referred to in his speech concluding the debate. I must naturally refer to these matters in order that I may have a statement from the Minister regarding them. I am not doing more than that. I based my speech entirely on quotations from his speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not necessarily put the Deputy's speech in order.

Mr. MacEntee

Very well. I will have to put it to a division.

The Committee divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 49.

Tá

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Coburn, James.
• Cole, John James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Colohan, Hugh.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Cooper, Bryan Ricco.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Crowley, James.
• Davin, William.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Everett, James.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Leonard, Patrick.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Higgins, Thomas.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carney, Frank.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• French, Seán.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Smith, Patrick.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Question declared carried.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Resolution reported and agreed to.