Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 2

University Education (Agriculture and Dairy Science) Bill, 1929. - Adjournment Debate—Prices of Imported Coal.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

At Question Time yesterday Deputy Lemass raised a very important question. He put a question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce concerning a scheme for the control of the price of coal in Ireland. In his reply the Minister left us in very considerable doubt as to what the position was, as to the nature of the information which he had, and, in fact, whether or not he had any information, or whether there was any such scheme as that referred to by Deputy Lemass in existence. Since Question Time yesterday a document has come into my possession which leaves no doubt whatever as to what the actual position is in regard to this very important matter. I think that it is only right that this House, and especially the Minister, should know what is being done and the scheme that is not only in contemplation, but that is, I believe, actually in existence. It is important, too, that we should know from the Minister what steps he proposes to take in view of this information to protect the interests of coal consumers in this country.

The document which I have before me and which has been circulated to numbers of people engaged in the coal trade is called a "Memorandum of Constitution of Joint Co-ordinating Committee representing coal owners in Great Britain and importers in Ireland engaged in the supply of coal to Ireland." The Chairman is named R. L. Angus, Esq., Ladykirk, Monkton, Ayrshire, and the Vice-Chairman is Sir Samuel Kelly, Station Street, Belfast. The Joint Hon. Secretaries are Major F. Middleton of the Old Silkstone Collieries, Ltd., Dodworth, near Barnsley, Yorkshire; and P. Newman, Esq., of 18 Donegall Sq. North, Belfast. It sets out who are the members of this Co-ordinating Committee and it includes as far as I can gather practically all the coal owners in Great Britain. They are set down in the list as Forest of Dean, the Lanarkshire Coalmasters' Association Area, Ayrshire Coal Owners' Association Area, Fifeshire Coal Owners' Association. Area, Lothians Coal Owners' Association Area, Cumberland Coal Owners' Association Area, South Wales Coal Marketing Association, North Wales Coal Owners' Association, and Central Collieries' Commercial Association. As far as I have been able to find out these Associations cover the whole of the coal owners in Great Britain and on the other part is the Association of Importers in Ireland whose names are given. They are set out in the list here and I think it is important that they should be given because it shows that practically every coal importer in Ireland is included in this scheme.

It is stated in the memorandum that it is understood that the following firms have either signed or are willing to sign an undertaking in the form set out in the appendix to the memorandum: In Dublin—Thomas Heiton and Co.; Wallace Bros., Ltd.; S. Irwin and Co., Ltd.; Diamond Coal Company; S. N. Robinson and Co.; McKenzie and Co.; Flower and McDonald; Tedcastle, McCormick and Co.; J.J. Carroll and Co.; P. Murphy; P. Donnelly and Sons, Ltd; Dublin General Steamshipping Co., Ltd.; North City Coal Co.; Thomas J. Nicholl and Sons, Ltd.; Clarkin and Co.; McCarthy and Co.; Sheridan Bros., Ltd.; Doherty and Co., Ltd. In Waterford—Messrs. G. Spencer; McCullagh, Ltd.; Tedcastle, McCormick and Co., Ltd.; S. Morris, Ltd.; Mr. Thomas Power, Mayor's Walk; Joseph A. Nolan, 83 Quay. In Limerick—Phillip O'Donovan; R. Despard and Sons; Clyde Shipping Co.; Tedcastle McCormick and Co.; Limerick Steamshipping Co.; Suttons, Ltd. In Cork—Suttons, Ltd.; D. W. Tooms; J. Collins and Co.; Kelleher and Harrington; Metropole Coal Co.; David Tierney; Clyde Shipping Co.; G. Scott and Co., Ltd. It states that the list includes all the important coal importing firms and practically all the small firms. It is important to note that the scheme is not confined to the Irish Free State. It covers all Ireland.

In the Minister's reply, I think he stated that he had no information as to whether any agreement had been made or was about to be made for the purpose of raising the price of coal in Ireland, but we have it stated very definitely in the Memorandum that one of the objects of the Committee is as follows:—"The Committee shall act in a consultative and advisory capacity, and shall meet from time to time for the purpose of considering and making recommendations to and for the mutual benefits of the subscribing coal-owners and importers concerned. Such recommendations shall deal inter alia with the following matters:—(a) The raising or lowering of all or any of the prices of coal supplied to Ireland; (b) the conditions which are to apply generally or specifically to sales of coal in Ireland." They provide in the next paragraph for penal action against any of the parties concerned should they depart from the arrangement or break the ring. This paragraph provides for "any necessary joint action in regard to subscribing coal-owners or importers acting in a manner prejudicial to the objects contemplated." They set out what the action will be as follows:—"Where the Committee shall be satisfied that any subscribing coal-owner or importer is acting or has acted in a manner prejudicial to the objects contemplated by the Memorandum of Constitution, they shall make a recommendation upon the following lines or otherwise as may seem to them appropriate, viz.: that importers shall refuse to deal with an offending subscribing coal-owner or vice versa, as the case may be."

It seems to be quite clear from this that the importers of coal in Ireland are especially being forced into this combination by the action of the coal-owners in Britain. That is what I read into it, in any case, that as practically all the coal importers in the country are in the combine or ring, and as the coal-owners have bound themselves not to supply coal to anybody who is not a member of the particular ring, it will be impossible for any small importer to get coal from Britain. I think it is clear from this that there can be no longer any doubt in the mind of the Minister that there is a definite combination here to raise prices. None of us believes that these people are philanthropists whose object it will be to lower the price of coal to consumers in Ireland. While undoubtedly one of the stated ends may be to lower prices, we all believe and feel that the principal object of this combine is, and will be, to raise prices, to control prices and to create a monopoly in regard to the supply of coal in Ireland. I think it is the Minister's duty, and it will be the Government's duty to take steps to prevent the possible fleecing of Irish consumers of coal by the action contemplated here. I have no doubt that the Minister will take cognisance of what is being done, and that he will take steps to see that the interests of the coal-consuming public will be protected against possible exploitation by a combine of coal-owners and coal importers about whose existence there can no longer be any possible doubt.

[An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.]

Mr. Lemass

I would like to support the case put forward by Deputy O'Connell, and to show why the Minister for Industry and Commerce should take action to prevent anything in the nature of a monopoly in the coal trade being established here. I think it would be very undesirable that such a monopoly should be established even if the immediate effect of it was not to produce an unreasonable increase in the price of coal. There are many reasons other than the price of coal why national interests demand that the Government should take action to prevent the formation of this ring. It is true. I think, that the competition between coal importers in Dublin has been very keen in recent months. A number of firms have, in fact, gone into liquidation in consequence of the keenness of the competition, and the prices which have been prevailing here have been on the whole lower than those prevailing in Belfast and other centres. Nevertheless, I think that that matter should be allowed to rectify itself through the operation of the ordinary economic laws. Any attempt on the part of the coal importers to combine for the purpose of rectifying that position, while it might do their interests some good in the immediate future, would ultimately result in the production of a situation very undesirable in the national interest.

I would like to remind the Minister that under the scheme for the reorganisation of the British coal industry, which is at the present time being discussed in the British Parliament, the Free State market is reckoned as the home market. The Minister is, no doubt, aware that the basis of that scheme is to increase the price of coal in the home market in order to permit the subsidising of exports to foreign countries. Under that scheme the Free State is to be treated as the home market and consequently an increase in the price of coal is to be expected here whether this ring is formed or not. That increase in the price of coal will help to make possible the economic working of Irish deposits of coal, which has been impossible heretofore. This ring is, of course, for mutual business. It is designed to serve not merely all the coal importers in Ireland but the coal exporters in England. Consequently it will be undoubtedly utilised to prevent that development of Irish coal deposits which the increase in British prices would make possible.

It is quite easy to visualise the manner in which a well organised ring can work. Prices could be cut in a particular district, or coal actually offered at particularly favourable prices to special customers, if there was any danger of the importing trade being seriously affected by the development of coal production here. Because of the fact that there is a possibility of increased production of coal within this country we should view with disfavour any attempt to organise this industry in combination with British coal exporters. If it was merely an association of Irish importers, acting independently of the British exporters to protect their own interests, it would not be so serious. The fact is, that the British coal exporters, according to the Minister's reply to a question which I asked here last May, took the initiative in this matter and on their initiative the ring has been formed. The prime purpose is to protect the interests of the British exporters and only incidentally to increase the profits of the importers. It is, therefore, in my opinion, desirable that the Government should utilise any powers they now possess to prevent this monopoly being constituted. If they do not possess adequate powers to deal with the question, they can come to the Dáil immediately with a proposal to acquire these powers. I am quite certain any Bill seeking to give the Government power to deal with a situation of this kind would receive a favourable reception and a quick passage in this House.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. McGilligan)

I am very thankful to Deputy O'Connell for having raised this matter in this particular way, and particularly for giving the contents of a document which has come to his hands. I propose to supplement what he said. I would like, at the beginning, to call attention to one or two things. The Deputy, in speaking of the firms in Ireland which are in this ring, as he calls it, went on to state that he believed the ring was actually in existence. I would like to point out that his own phraseology was to the effect that "the following firms" have either signed or are willing to sign, and secondly, that at the bottom of the page it is stated that it is understood the promoters of the scheme anticipate including therein practically all the coal importers in Ireland. I know certainly, with regard to a company formed recently in this country, that the articles of association allowed for fifty members joining. It will be noted, even from the list that Deputy O'Connell read, that thirty-eight people are mentioned and only six as signing or willing to sign. That is why I am not clear that the ring has been, in fact, formed. However, that is a small matter.

The point we have to consider is the effect of the reactions in this country of what is happening on the other side. A Bill is being discussed in another Parliament arising out of either one or the other of two things, or a combination of both, the working of shorter hours and giving more pay in the mines. The result of that is that a bigger price has got to be charged for English coal. Personally, I disagree fundamentally with Deputy Lemass when he says that the serious part is that it is a combination of British exporters. We cannot, to any great degree, counter what the British exporter does until his coal goes to a price with which either home produced coal can compete or at which other coal can be imported. The serious thing is the establishment of any organised profiteering here. That organised profiteering would be a much more serious thing if completely divorced from the exporters on the other side, because on the other side there is a scheme going through which has openly for its purpose an increase in the price of coal and an increase in price particularly in what are called the "home districts." The Irish Free State has always been, from the point of view of the English coal trade, reckoned as a home area. How far this combination is going to advance, what exact use it is going to make here of the powers taken with regard to looking after their mutual interests, with the special emphasis Deputy O'Connell placed on the raising or lowering of prices of coal, all that will fall for consideration, and can only fall for consideration when the measure on the other side has assumed its final shape. Meanwhile, we can watch the situation here and can make preparations if it attempts to organise profiteering on a large scale in this country. I would remind the Deputy that there is already on the Statute Book an Act for the protection of the community, the Protection of the Community (Special Powers) Act, 1926, to deal with what was then considered a national emergency. The Act gives considerable powers, even compelling the breaking up of any such combination. I do not think it will be necessary to use that. I think the worst part of this combination is a matter to which Deputy O'Connell did not refer. It confines trading to the people mentioned, and even prohibits direct trading except in the case of certain mentioned undertakings of a public utility character. Even with regard to these few exceptional undertakings, it says that it shall be the duty of the association to divert direct trading so that trading will be done only through the importing bodies. That is under consideration at the moment, to see whether or not it comes within the law as being an illegal combination, an illegal restraint of trade.

It is doubtful if a document of this sort, which obviously has been prepared by lawyers, would err in that way. The law can be changed to meet the situation, and by permission of the House can be changed if it is seen that this is going to result in fixing unreasonable charges on the Irish consumer. There again I find myself in disagreement with Deputy Lemass. I do not see why I should seek to prevent a monopoly just because it is a monopoly; and I do not see why we should force by law merchants in this country to continue what Deputy Lemass calls cut-throat competition. That would not appeal to the reason of anybody here. I would not like to say myself that I should forbid any combination with regard to prices. It is a thing we merely do not prohibit but even encourage in other businesses in order to let them go ahead. The whole matter will fall for consideration afterwards when the facts become clear, and when we get information of the price at which coal will be sold to the Association by the coal exporters on the other side, and the price at which it is afterwards retailed to the consumer. It happens that coal is a very easy matter to deal with in that respect. We can get the pit-head prices easily and know to the last penny the freight paid coming over. It is an easy matter to determine what profits have been made hitherto, what are the profits reasonably to be made, and we could see what the consumer is charged and estimate what the profits accruing to the merchant are. When these facts come to light, that will be the time to deal with them. I will not be remiss in dealing with the situation. It has been under consideration since last spring, when the first move was started. The document Deputy O'Connell read came into my hands about a week ago. The situation is not clear at the moment. This debate is useful to enable me to take action, and to give warning to the people concerned, that if there is profiteering on any scale that profiteering will be dealt with in so far as any legislation can be made to deal with it.

Mr. O'Kelly

I knew the Minister would not interfere at the stage at which this combination has arrived, and I do not think Deputy Lemass or anyone else expected him to step in and pass a Bill here against a combination which, as the Minister says, is not in existence. But I have in mind a combination of coal owners that did exist in the city of Dublin, unknown to the public. I was a member of the Board of the Grangegorman Mental Hospital fifteen or sixteen years ago, when one of the officials reported that they were not getting satisfactory coal, and that it was not being delivered properly. The complaint was that the institution was not getting the coal contracted for. Investigations were set on foot. The Board had the advantage of having experts on it. They happened to be members, if I remember aright, of the Transport Union, men who had worked all their lives at coal. They had grown up in the business and knew where the various classes of coal came from. I believe they actually knew the collieries in England and Wales from which the coal came. On investigation, it was discovered that there was a ring to supply the Electricity Supply Committee of the Dublin Corporation, the South and North Dublin Unions and the public boards. The ring was not set up by any agreement such as the Minister or Deputy O'Connell read out, but there was an arrangement whereby when these public bodies advertised for coal the ring arranged what contractors were to supply the various institutions. They sent in tenders which were arranged amongst themselves. There was zoning of a kind. One was to get a contract in Grangegorman, another in the Dublin Union, and so on. When they got the contract some big men in the trade did not supply coal of the quality stipulated, and in that way in one year sums of more than £10,000 were filched from the Dublin ratepayers. As the Minister said, it is useful to have even an attempt at a ring exposed. What we want is not to prevent fair competition in anything, but to prevent anything that will revive robbery of the ordinary ratepayers. It is a good job someone has, in advance called attention to this matter so as to give warning that if there is any attempt to revive that kind of dishonest trading in the Twenty-six Counties steps will be taken to forestall it.

Mr. Anthony

Might I ask what steps the Minister proposes to take in the event of any importing merchant in Dublin or Cork refusing to join this ring? Does he propose to take any measures to see that these merchants will be supplied with coal?

Mr. McGilligan

Obviously, if the coal association on the other side refuses to supply except to certain people, I am afraid the Deputy is asking too much. These things will arise in time, and in that case I have to see the situation as it develops.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m.