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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 67—League of Nations.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £120 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Deontas i gCabhair do Chostaisí Chumann na Náisiún, agus chun Costaisí eile mar gheall air sin.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £120 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for a Grant-in-Aid of the expenses of the League of Nations, and for other expenses in connection therewith.

The extra amount asked for at the moment is necessitated by the fact that a bigger delegation was sent to Geneva than had previously been thought necessary, and more particularly by the fact that the attempt to get hotel accommodation was made too late. The result was that the delegation had to put up in a hotel some four miles outside the city with consequent extra travelling expenses.

If it would not be anticipating a more formal debate, I think the Minister might tell us what are the hopes from the latest conference of the League of Nations with regard to the principal work which the League was intended to do. It seems from a rather hasty reading of the Minister's speech that he was rather sceptical about the progress that was being made towards that end. For instance, in the first paragraph of his speech there is this statement:

Progress in the Preparatory Commission's work has, unfortunately, not so far been favourable to the calling of the Conference. Although some important decisions have been reached, practically the only result that is claimed for the activities of the Commission since last year is an improved atmosphere in the discussions. This result is, of course, to the good; but I think that in the eleventh year after the world war, and a year after the signing of the Kellogg Pact, some more definite result might have been expected.

Later on we find the following in the Minister's speech:

But we feel that if these words and professions, however sincere, are not followed up by appropriate action, first they will lose their effectiveness, and, eventually, will become harmful, as conveying to the public interested in these matters that words and actions have here no bond, that statements are not seriously meant, or that the League is so ineffective that even in one of the principal tasks laid upon it by the Covenant, it can and ought to be ignored.

It is evident the Minister felt that previous Conferences did not lead substantially to the goal towards which the League was directed from the first and that progress has not been made towards the fulfilment of the principal object of the foundation of the League. At the same time the Minister was making that statement the special correspondent of the "Manchester Guardian" was writing in that paper to this effect:

"What does matter is that Lord Cecil has exposed the insincerity of the majority of Governments in this matter of disarmament and the worse than futile methods of the Preparatory Disarmament Commission, who, as Lord Cecil said, are offering not bread but a stone to a world hungry for pence. This has not been a pleasant morning. Far from it. This revelation of the attitude of so many members of the League towards what Count Bernstorff rightly said this morning was the chief question with which the League had to deal does not encourage the facile optimism of those who put their confidence in Mr. Briand's pacific rhetoric. But it is far better that the public opinion of the world should realise that the League has as yet done nothing at all to achieve the chief purpose for which it was founded and that the majority of its members are determined that it shall do nothing if they can help it."

In face of statements like that, if the occasion seems appropriate to the Minister, we should have some statement from him as to whether the result of the last Conference indicated that any further progress had been made. I think everybody interested in public questions is interested in the League from that point of view, as to whether it will fulfil the purpose for which it was founded, whether it will bring about disarmament, and create a condition where world peace must be maintained. If the League is not going forward in that direction, if it is merely passing resolutions which are afterwards not confirmed by the Parliaments from which the delegates are sent, or are only confirmed, as the Minister himself remarked, with reservations that more or less destroy their value, it will be an unfortunate thing. In such case very many people would inevitably come to look upon the League just as an international association where perhaps pleasant and interesting conferences take place but where nothing of any great importance to the world occurs. None of us wants to hear a message of that kind, but, at the same time, if it is true that there are certain powers, certain big influences in the League, who are not only content that nothing has been done to achieve the purpose for which the League was founded but are determined that nothing shall be done if they can help it, if that is the state of things, we are entitled to know— for I suppose we are able to bear such news—what we are voting the money for when we are passing a Vote like this which has to be paid by the people.

I agree with Deputy Moore that it is regrettable the Minister, in introducing the estimate, has not made some statement as to the fruits of the labours of the Free State delegates to the League of Nations. The Minister is no doubt interested in this question and both himself and his colleague, the Minister for Education, have stressed the fact that the Assemblies of the League of Nations have done a good deal to create an international atmosphere and an international understanding. The Minister for Education in an address on this subject mentioned that the League of Nations Assembly was very useful for clearing up matters. What precisely the matters were that were cleared up we would like to have some information upon. The House will remember that when the League of Nations was originally formed, and even up to the present time, the United States of America refused to participate. That was chiefly because of an agitation which was got up in the United States of America by the Irish section in opposition to Article X of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which guaranteed the territorial integrity of the constituent members of the League against interference by other members.

Therefore, it seemed to supporters of Irish aspirations for freedom that by America entering the League of Nations she was giving cognisance to, and acquiescing in, the English claim that British Imperial affairs as such should not come within the jurisdiction of that body; that the British Empire acted there as a unit, and that no matters connected with the internal affairs of any part of the British Dominions and British Empire should come within the jurisdiction of the Court. The Minister for External Affairs on some occasions in this House treats us to elaborate expositions of the advances that we have made in the Imperial Conference. We have made great strides towards freedom, and we are constantly waking up to find ourselves even freer than we were before, the only limit being put upon our ultimate freedom in that connection being that we shall be free as long as we are not free. So long as we do not seek to be really free, then we are as free as we like. The Minister can, no doubt, explain that.

Scarcely this evening. This would not be the appropriate occasion. The Deputy, I am sure, realises that.

Or to query it?

In any case the Ministry have one philosophy with regard to the British Empire and the affairs of the British Imperial Conference and, on the other hand, they tried to get us to support them in their contention that membership of the League of Nations constitutes an acceptance by the other States in that League of the Irish Free State as a full national entity, having full sovereign independence, and having all the attributes of separate nationhood.

As well as the Covenant of the League of Nations, which in that Article X guarantees the territorial integrity of the British Empire and of all its parts, and therefore makes it impossible for the Free State to seek assistance in any dispute that may arise within them, or any other constituents of the British Empire, you have the recent position created by the so-called optional clause, where you had the British representative signing that clause with a distinct reservation that they would only agree to the jurisdiction that is implied in that clause and only subscribe to it on the condition that they would be allowed to put their own interpretation upon it. So that in the inception of the League of Nations and in its latest manifestation, where so many nations signed this optional clause, the British Empire, or England as the headpiece of the Empire, has twice affirmed the position that a dispute within the Empire will not be open to the jurisdiction of the League of Nations or of the International Court.

How does the Deputy connect this with the supplementary estimate? This supplementary estimate is for the expenses of the delegation to the Assembly of the League of Nations last year. The Deputy is discussing the question as to whether we ought to belong to the League of Nations or not.

What precisely am I allowed to discuss?

If I knew what the Deputy was desirous of discussing now, I might be able to help him.

I am discussing our attitude towards the League of Nations.

Our membership of the League of Nations is ratified by an Act of the Oireachtas and this particular estimate is not even the main estimate for the year. It is a supplementary estimate dealing with travelling and incidental expenses. Deputy Moore raised the question as to our attendance at the assembly and particular matters which arose out of that assembly. That, of course, is completely relevant. But the fundamental question as to whether or not we ought to be a member of the League of Nations is completely outside the scope of this estimate—indeed, it seems to me, of any estimate, as it is a matter for legislation. The Deputy in his allusion to the Minister for Education and the Minister for External Affairs at last year's assembly was quite within the scope of the estimate, because the expenses for that are included in the estimate.

I take it I am precluded from following the line I had undertaken. I want to say in conclusion that the Minister for Education stated, and I am sure we were all glad to see the statement, that in their efforts to advance Ireland's cause, or that portion of Ireland called the Free State, at the League of Nations, the Free State delegation were prompted by a sincere desire not to impede in any way the work of any successors they might have. They wanted to leave them quite free and not to impose any obligations upon them. It seems to me that by participating in the Conference under the condition in which it is at present, and under the regulations and restrictions which bind it, the Ministry, whether they like it or not, are binding the Free State and any future Government, so far as it is possible for them to do so.

I want to ask is this the appropriate occasion to discuss the general report of the delegation to the League of Nations or should that take place on the main estimate in the summer?

And the time to discuss the optional clause would be when the motion is before the House?

Yes, the special motion on the paper.

The only cheerful result of these debates is that I notice an encouraging increase in interest in external affairs on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Does the Fianna Fáil Party arise properly on this estimate?

If the Ceann Comhairle could make a rule that neither Cumann na nGaedheal nor Fianna Fáil was to be mentioned in debate, he would gladly make it. I must listen to Deputy Esmonde for a moment and see what he has to say, and then I shall take the point of order.

You, sir, called up Deputy Derrig because he was going outside the scope of the estimate. It strikes me that members on the opposite benches have really no interest in the League of Nations. It seems to me that they are pledged to break the Covenant of the League as soon as they get control of this State; that they are pledged to violate some of the principal clauses of the Covenant.

Would not that bring under discussion the matter which Deputy Derrig was prevented from discussing?

They are pledged to violate national agreements which have been——

The Deputy is transgressing the ruling given from the Chair.

Then I presume that on the next occasion on which we are discussing the main question we will have an opportunity of congratulating the Minister and his colleagues on the most excellent and dignified and very efficient manner in which they represented this State at the last assembly of the League of Nations.

As the Deputy has stated, the appropriate occasion on which to discuss this Report and the very serious matters that Deputy Moore raised will be when the Report has been read and understood by Deputies opposite. There will be time in the early summer for the discussion when the main Estimate comes on. Quite a number of questions that Deputy Moore asked are answered in the pages of the Report itself. They will see there certain activities of the League. Similarly the discussion of the optional clause will arise on the special motion down on the Paper. I do not know that there is anything to be answered at the moment.

Can the Minister give me the pages of the Report where the questions I raised are answered?

The Deputy will have to read the whole of the Report.

He would want to read it very carefully to find them.

Vote put and agreed to.
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