Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 64.—Army.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I beg to move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Costas an Airm, maraon le Cúl taca an Airm.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1930, for the cost of the Army including Army Reserve.

It will be seen that the sum is one of only £10. It is merely a token Vote, because it does not add any further sum of money to that already voted on the original Estimate, and this expense will be met out of moneys therein voted. Certain sub-heads are exceeded and new ones are created, so that it is necessary to bring them before the Dáil. If you extract the first and third items the other four arise out of the creation of the Volunteer Reserve and the O.T.C. units. The first item arises out of the general re-organisation of the Army, in which, as we have decreased in size, certain N.C.O.s and other men become supernumerary, and it is proposed to give them small gratuities. Item No. 3—"Animals and Forage"— comes from the fact that last year it was made clear to us, particularly as we are a horse-breeding country, that it was necessary that our jumping team should appear at a number of foreign shows. That necessitated an increase in the general equipment for animals, etc., and that is the reason for the token Vote. The clothing and equipment is for the Volunteer Reserve and the O.T.C. The item of general stores also is due to the creation of the Volunteer Reserve and the O.T.C. The same reason applies to barrack maintenance, and incidental expenses also arise out of the creation of the Volunteer Reserve and O.T.C. As I have already explained, this is not adding to the amount voted in the original Estimate last year. The Estimate at that time did not include either the Volunteer Reserve or the O.T.C., for the reason that I was not in a position of being certain that we would advance to the stage of getting these organisations when the Estimate was being prepared. I take this opportunity of saying that I frequently referred here to the proposed creation of those bodies. Judging from the discussions that took place on those occasions, the proposal quite naturally met with the approval of the Dáil. I say "quite naturally," because I think that the creation of the Volunteer Reserve and the O.T.C. is one of the most hopeful signs of the times. These bodies have no relation to party politics. They are recruited from young men belonging, if they like, to any party or to no party, and they come forward to give service to their country.

The response which we have had from those bodies has very far exceeded anything that I expected, and I regard that response as one of the finest signs of what I might call a return to normality in this country, where people tend to think more of the State as a whole than of their own individual political or other opinions. To me it is very gratifying to see the way that these young men have come forward for those organisations. For the sake of charity I may explain again that items Nos. 1 and 3 are not associated with the Volunteer Reserve or O.T.C. and that all the other items directly arise out of the creation of those bodies.

Mr. Aiken

We are certainly glad to observe that the taxpayers of this country will not be called on to give any substantial increase in the sum already estimated for the Army. The sum of £1,600,000 which has been estimated, apart from military service and wound pensions, is quite sufficient for this country to spend on its Army. There is an item for gratuities, gratuities for N.C.O.'s and men. I suppose that as there has been some saving in gratuities paid to officers we might put in an additional estimate for gratuities to men. The whole gratuity payments have excited great criticism in the country. It is well-known that some of the men who got gratuities in the Army got as much on retirement after a couple of years' service as they would have earned in forty years in their previous occupation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Are those the gratuities for the N.C.O.'s and men referred to?

Mr. Aiken

No.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then the Deputy is not in order.

Mr. Aiken

In that case I will have to deal with a few of the Minister's assertions about the Volunteer Reserve. The Minister says that he is delighted at the success of the Volunteer Reserve. We believe that if there was really a National Government in control in this country practically the whole of the Army could be organised on volunteer lines.

Mr. Davin

What do you want an Army for at all?

Mr. Aiken

I do not know what the present Government wants an Army for.

Mr. Davin

What would you want an Army for?

Mr. Aiken

To protect the rights of the people.

Mr. Davin

To protect them against the peace-makers outside?

Mr. Aiken

The peace-makers are going to be the greatest troublemakers so far as I can see. I do not know what reason the Minister has to be delighted at the measure of success which he says has attended the establishment of the Volunteer Reserve. I see an item of £10 for advertising. The Minister must be getting his advertisements at very special rates if they cost only £10 in connection with the Volunteer Reserve. I would like him to explain that item. I think it is pretty obvious to anyone that the Minister for Defence must have spent several thousands, if not tens of thousands, of pounds in organising the O.T.C. and the Volunteer Reserve, but the only result that attended those activities has been the coming forward of 300 men for the Volunteer Reserve in Dublin and another couple of hundred between the two O.T.C. units. To my mind, it is an indication that the people do not trust the Minister when only 300 young men have come forward in spite of all sorts of inducements to join the Volunteer Reserve. Only 300 ordinary people in Dublin have come forward. The Minister stated yesterday that 82 men came forward in Trinity College, and he said that they came forward solely in order to render service to Ireland. I know that there are some men who might be expected to come forward from Trinity College and to join the Army solely to give service to Ireland, but I believe that the larger portion of those who came forward from Trinity College did so in order to get trained to give service to England. I think it is a sheer waste of public money to spend it on training an O.T.C. in Trinity College. I do not think that the people of the country approve of it, and certainly we on these benches do not.

Mr. Davin

The fighting mentality disclosed in the speeches which we heard yesterday from the Minister for Defence and to-day from the prospective Minister for Defence on behalf of the two big parties, is a very unfortunate mentality for those who have to put up with it from day to day. From platforms in the country and from benches here, we repeatedly hear about the type of Army which this country would require to defend itself from people—I do not know who they are—who are going to attack this country. The Minister for Defence, who made a fighting and rather provocative speech, is represented at the Naval Disarmament Conference in London by a delegate whose duty, I presume, it is to do away with arms and munitions.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

With the s.s. "Muirchu."

Mr. Davin

Yes; the flag-ship of the Free State navy. I think it is unfortunate that that sort of thing should be preached from platforms in the country and by responsible politicians in this House. I have a notion that all this balderdash about defending this country is talked from a wrong angle. If we are going to talk about defending the country from those outside who are going to attack it, either now or in future, we will have to talk about the proper defensive tactics that should be adopted by an island such as this. It is not going to be defended against great naval powers by a few thousand men who stand to attention in Athlone, Templemore, or Dundalk. If we are to talk about real defence forces we will have to talk about aeroplanes and submarines. I am in favour, particularly in view of the mentality of the Minister and Deputy Aiken, of getting rid of armies for a particular period of years, and to giving up even talking about them. What I really rose to refer to was the military reception which has been given to distinguished visitors, presumably on the suggestion of the Minister for Defence.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there any money in the Estimate for that?

Mr. Davin

Yes, certainly.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy mention where it is?

Mr. Davin

I will leave that to the discretion of the Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy say where it is referred to?

Mr. Davin

I think "General Stores" should cover the point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid not.

Mr. Davin

The Minister gave me an opportunity of referring to this matter when he referred to this as a token Vote, and was followed by Deputy Aiken talking about the policy and various aspects of the Army.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, he did not.

Mr. Davin

I maintain that I can raise the matter under sub-head for General Stores.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That deals with stores for the Volunteer Reserve and O.T.C.

Mr. Davin

Then I submit that I am entitled to raise it under the sub-head for the clothing of officers and soldiers who are called on to stand behind the guns which fire a salute of nineteen rounds as part of the reception given to distinguished visitors to this country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is again wrong. That refers to the Volunteer Reserve and the Officers' Training Corps.

Mr. Davin

I say it is a mockery.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would not advise the Deputy to go any further.

Mr. Davin

If the Chair rules me out on this occasion I will wait for the appropriate time to proceed further with this matter.

Mr. Esmonde

I am always a bit nervous listening to Deputy Aiken, because I do not know whether or not he is still a member of the Irish Republican Army. I always feel alarmed discussing the defence of our State in the presence of eminent members of that Party which is engaged in subterranean conspiracies against our State. For all I know, Deputy Tubridy may be the head of a great Black Hand gang which is plotting secretly for the overthrow of our institutions. And yet they are allowed to come into the Dáil, to utilise every modern convenience here, to be shown everything that there is to be shown in our State, and to be allowed to discuss the defence of our State.

There is one element in this Estimate which appears to have been overlooked by the Deputies who have spoken, and that is sub-head N. It refers to the purchase of horses for the Army jumping team. As far as my information goes, the Minister has not been very generous in his treatment of the Army jumping team which has brought great credit to this country and has done a lot of good in the way of advertising Irish horses abroad. Our jumping team in America has won great successes, and, in spite of the efforts of Deputy de Valera to minimise the effect of that good propaganda for our State, I think it has increased the sale of Irish horses in the United States. The Minister who, of all Ministers, is the one most beloved by the Department of Finance because he always submits to their cheeseparing methods, has not treated the officers and men connected with the Army jumping team with the generosity which they deserve, not only from the Army but from the country as a whole.

I understand foreign jumping teams are largely manned by men of private means. Even in those teams the prize money is divided between the horse and the rider. One half goes to the rider and the other half to the Army, or whatever fund is concerned. The sum total of the prize money which is won by our officers is captured by the Minister as agent for the rapacious Minister for Finance. There are many other items in connection with the trips abroad of our jumping team which the Minister should look into, and I hope he will be a little more generous in his treatment of these men who have undoubtedly brought honour and credit to the country.

Mr. O'Kelly

I do not intend to say very much. I shall have other opportunities of discussing Army Estimates. Military matters are very popular subjects in this House. They have been so, and I suppose they will be in the future.

Mr. Davin

Between the two big Parties.

Mr. O'Kelly

The Labour Party had their share, and a great deal more than their share, of the discussion on military topics.

Mr. Anthony

We have fighting men.

Mr. O'Kelly

We have our own opinion on that matter. I hope you think it is sensible. With most of what Deputy Davin has said about the Army, I am in agreement. He was sensible there for once, I admit.

Mr. Davin

Thanks very much.

Mr. O'Kelly

He spoke of the type of Army that Ireland would need and he said that we have not a real defence force. To my mind the organisation that is called an Army is useless as a defence force. It is not the fault of the men who are in it and possibly not the fault of the officers over it, but you might as well have as many men in their shirts or their bare skins as to have men equipped as they are to-day to defend the country. If there were to exist a real defence force in this or any other country you would have to spend ten times as much money as you are spending. It is a farce and not an Army. That is not due to any fault on the part of the individuals concerned.

Deputies will see that this is a token Vote. It is a token army if you like because they might as well be armed with blackthorns for all the good they are, or for all the good any other body of men could be. If they were 100 per cent. Republican and were equipped as they are to-day to defend Ireland they could not do it and they could do very little beyond demonstrate. They could not defend Ireland against any country that might invade our shores. We are spending one and a half millions on the Army and I say that we would get as much value if we reduced that amount by two-thirds. If you want the force to be a token force just as this is a token estimate you could get that equally as well by spending only one-third of the amount that you are spending on the token army of to-day. Any army worthy of the name in any country to-day has to be equipped in an entirely different manner as compared with our Army. So far as my knowledge of it and its equipment goes I may say that to be a real defence force it will have to be better equipped. An army to-day is a very highly-scientific and technical organisation. It has to have associated with it technical equipment that is of the most costly character— aeroplanes, chemicals, artillery of certain kinds, tanks, machine guns of a varied character and a highly-equipped organisation for the manufacture of the arms and implements of war. We have none of these in this country. There is a kind of token air force. I wonder how many aeroplanes they have.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not in this Vote.

Mr. O'Kelly

I mention it in passing as part of the highly-scientific equipment that an army requires. We are not likely to have it, because under present conditions we cannot afford it. We could well do with a token army the cost of which would be reduced to one-third of the present figure, and it would not be less effective. Perhaps it would be more effective than the Army that is costing one and a half millions now. That Army is of no value, even to the Free State. I quite agree, as Deputy Davin pointed out, that it is balderdash to be talking about defending the country with an army of that type. The Deputy asked who would be likely to attack us. I maintain, but I suppose the Deputy would not agree, that we are being attacked in our sovereignty every day. When we will rise to defend ourselves against that attack upon our sovereignty is another matter.

We are being attacked, and our sovereignty is being attacked every day in this State. I suppose we here in this House—the majority of us at any rate—have no desire to attempt to repel that attack, having no desire to remove those who are invading our rights. Well, that may happen some day or another, not perhaps this year or next year, or the year after, but perhaps ten years hence. That will be achieved perhaps some day, not by an army, but I hope it will be done in some way other than by the shedding of blood. That it will have to be done, and attempted to be done, some day is as certain as that we are here now. I hope sincerely that an army will not be necessary to achieve the final freedom and the sovereignty of Ireland, securing our rights and winning them back and securing the independence of our country. I hope the Army will not be necessary for that. But an army of the present type, equipped as that is with a tenfold increase in numbers, would not perhaps achieve it, because the present Army's equipment is as antiquated as at the Battle of Waterloo.

Deputy Esmonde mentioned one or two points about the horsemen who went abroad. I do not know. Perhaps they did well in their competition, but from any of the results that we saw I know that my recollection is that these men did not win one single first prize in any important competition. It may be no fault of their own. It may be due, as Deputy Esmonde said, to the penuriousness of the Department concerned, that they did not win any first class prize in an important competition. That is my recollection of the reports as I read them.

Mr. Esmonde

They won first-prize in Boston.

Mr. O'Kelly

In some minor competitions they won first-prize but in nothing important. They were not any credit to this country and that was not due to the men's fault and not due to the horses' fault. If more money were spent on them they might have done better. I do not know. At any rate as the matter stands they did not win first-prize in any important competition. If Deputy Esmonde hopes to get much benefit for the men concerned out of the prize money, I am afraid he will find that that prize money would not stand him many drinks. The prize money they got altogether in their competitions would not stand many drinks. If you are sending men out—and I am not advocating that you do send them out—but if you do, spend money on them and try to make them what would be worthy of the horsemanship of this country, and the horse flesh of this country. You sent out second and third rate horses. I do not know anything about the men you sent out, but if the horses sent out were worthy of the traditions of the country they should get the first prize everywhere. If you are sending out these teams do not do it in a half-hearted way. Again, I say I am not advocating that they should be sent out, but if you are sending anybody, send the best, do not send a boy on a man's errand. There is just one other question. I do not know if this is in order or not. It is a question of the gratuity. I would like to know if the gratuity to Deputy McKeon is included in this Vote.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not.

Mr. O'Kelly

How is that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This refers to the N.C.O's. and men only. I understand that Deputy McKeon held a higher rank.

Mr. Brady

Does the Leas-Cheann Comhairle suggest that Deputy McKeon is not a man?

Mr. O'Connor

How very clever.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No; the Leas-Cheann Comhairle does not suggest any such thing. I understand that Deputy McKeon held a higher rank than that of N.C.O.; therefore he is not included in this Vote.

Mr. O'Kelly

We are against these gratuities to N.C.O.s and men of higher rank. It is proved in practice that these gratuities are political bribes, political bribes given in order to attach these men to a particular political Party. That is how it has worked out in the past, and I presume that is how it will work out in the future, so far as the present Government is concerned. For that reason we will vote against it.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

I would like to say that it would be regrettable if it went out from this House that the feelings of representatives of the people in this country were given expression to by the Deputy who has just spoken. In that speech there was pessimism, defeat and a sense of failure—that we can do nothing, that we are not able to fight anybody. If everybody in this country was armed with a blackthorn, I suppose we could not, but I would suggest another weapon. I think it should not go forth from this House that the Irish race and the people we represent are not still able to defend our shores. I think the Deputy called it our sovereignty. I am very glad to hear the Deputy say that and to acknowledge that we have a sovereignty to defend. I am very pleased to hear him say that he would be glad in future if more money were spent on the teams that were sent abroad to exhibit before the people of other countries, and to show what Irishmen can do in the matter of horsemanship. I notice that there is an attempt made by the Deputies opposite to make a joke of this Vote. They speak of a token Vote and a token Army. It is a token Vote, and it is really a token of what the policy in this country will be, namely, to defend the country by the Volunteer Defence Forces, the O.T.C., and the ordinary Reserve. If that policy develops it will give an opportunity to persons of all political thought and creed to take a part in defending their country—I had almost said either sex in the country. I hope it will not include the Cumann-namBan. But I trust it will give an opportunity to the young people who have not grown up and who did not suffer from those bees in the bonnets—from that feeling of defeat and from that anti-Army bug that a number of persons who spoke from the Opposition Benches in this House suffer from; and naturally they should suffer from it, because the Army did beat them; when their generals set forth to fight they beat them.

Mr. Davin

On a point of order, when I was raising the question of Army policy in connection with a certain matter the Chair ruled me out. I submit it is not in order for another Deputy to raise the question on which I was ruled out.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I should say, sir, that I arose to welcome the policy which this token Vote exhibits, namely, if the Deputy will agree, resignations and retirements and discharge gratuities, clothing and equipment for the O.T.C. and the Volunteer Reserve. I was speaking on the advisability of the development of the Volunteer Reserve, and I submit I am in order. It would be advisable and it would be a happy thing in this country if the persons who did not suffer from any of these causes of defeat or otherwise and who did not suffer from any of these bugs would get an opportunity of saying that this is their country. I think it is very regrettable that a Deputy here should make a remark to-night derogatory of the intentions of persons in one particular University in this country who joined the O.T.C. in that University.

Mr. Aiken

Eulogise them.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Deputy's leader, I understand, is a pupil of that distinguished University. If the Deputy who made those derogatory remarks understood that if he had actually joined the O.T.C. like the persons who had not the traditions behind them that the Deputy has it might be a good thing. We suffer and possibly enjoy a good deal in this country because of those traditions. The more I think that we meet the people of this country who have not the same line of thought and the same line of tradition behind them as the Deputies on the opposite Benches claim to have—those sea-green Republicans, persons who would fight with blackthorns—the better. That is why I welcome the policy shown by this token Vote.

Mr. Shaw

It is nothing short of disgusting to hear Irishmen traducing and running down everything connected with their own country simply because they are jealous of and do not like the Army. I hold that the Irish horse and the Irish horsemen have, perhaps, done more to bring the name of this small country before the world than anything else. The performance of our Army officers at the Horse Show last year and the year before won the admiration not only of Irishmen but of the whole world. When they went abroad to compete the jumps arranged for the competitions were such that they had not been used to and yet they did splendidly. The horses had to travel to these countries, and we all know that travelling does not improve horses. Having studied the results won by our officers abroad and heard the opinions of people well qualified to judge, I think they did remarkably well. Irishmen in America, regardless of their political opinions, were the proudest people on earth when they witnessed the success of the officers of our Army, with their Irish horses, in that country. A few years ago such a thing was not even dreamed of or contemplated. I think it is nothing short of disgusting to have to listen to this continual wail-walling of Fianna Fáil. According to that Party everything in Ireland is rotten. We are poor, and everything here is to be abused. I think that, on the contrary, this is a great country. I am afraid we do not realise how great it is. We have one of the finest countries in the world. It is admired by people of every other country in the world except by a small section of our own people.

Mr. Kerlin

I would like to elaborate one or two points raised in connection with the Volunteer Reserve and the Officers' Training Corps. Deputy O'Sullivan seemed to take exception to the objections raised to the Minister's policy in regard to the Officers' Training Corps in Trinity College. The Minister said that the members of Trinity College who had joined the Officers' Training Corps were actuated solely by a desire to serve Ireland. I have an extract here from an article which appeared in the "Trinity College Magazine" which throws an interesting sidelight on whether that statement of the Minister is true or not. The article starts off by stating:

In the first place, Trinity is, and will continue to be, loyal to the British connection. More than 3,000 of our men fought in the war, and nearly 500 were killed. As I think, therefore, it is essential to the success of the Corps that its officers shall be College men who served at the Front, and now are willing to do their best to serve the Free State as a Dominion of the Empire. If we have our own officers, furthermore, confidence in the Corps will be encouraged in Northern Ireland, whence College draws so many of its best students; and every man in Trinity will be able to join the Corps without political or national misgivings. In the second place, I take the view that the formation of an O.T.C. in College would provide an excellent opportunity to promote reconciliation between Britain, Northern Ireland and the Free State. It would prove to the Free State Government that College is not unwilling to take its proper place in the country.

What follows is the most important:

And, if it were organised properly, it might constitute a highly valuable liaison between the Free State and British armies. To that end, might I suggest that part of the annual training should be held in the Free State, and the other part either in England, or in Northern Ireland?

That is the attitude of Trinity College towards the formation of the Officers' Training Corps. That is one of the reasons why they welcome it. Some of these people look upon the O.T.C. as a jumping-off ground for the British Army. I cannot see that that fits in with the Minister's statement that these men, in joining it, were actuated solely by the desire to serve Ireland. There is another point that I want to make in connection with the Volunteer Reserve itself. The Minister, in the debate that took place yesterday, seemed to give the impression that there was a distinct difference between this Volunteer Reserve and the B. Reserve. He implied that there was no grant or gratuities in connection with this force. I looked over the regulations, and I find that these men are entitled to grants varying from £5 to £15 per annum, to extra payment in respect of drill above a certain percentage. In fact, I think that on the whole these men will receive higher payments than the men in the B. Reserve. I would like if the Minister would point out the essential difference between the B. Reserve and the Volunteer Reserve, that is, leaving out the fact of the three months' initial training.

Mr. B. O'Connor

I rise to support the Vote. Deputy O'Kelly in his speech seemed to question whether our Army would be fit to meet any force that might oppose the sovereignty of the people of this country. Listening to him, I tried to think what force was most opposed to the sovereignty of our people. It struck me that it was the Party which the Deputy represents. The sovereignty of this country is the will of the Irish people. The Irish people, by the majorities they gave at the elections, established their Government. That Government has raised an Army which they think is suitable for the requirements of the country. The only challenge to the will of the Irish people comes from the Party Deputy O'Kelly represents. I know the country well. I keep my ear close to the ground. A great many people say to me: "You do not want a big Army, all you want is an Army fit to keep in control the people who challence your right to govern in this country." I really think that this country would require no Army at all were it not for the fact, as was remarked on a previous occasion, that we want it as an assurance for the Irish people that something is not going to happen again such as happened some years ago. We have no need for an Army at all except to keep peace in the country. I think there is no fear of any outside force attacking the sovereignty of the country. Our troubles are internal, and I think our Army is quite capable of dealing with any internal trouble that may arise. I agree with Deputy Shaw that Deputies sitting here in our native Parliament who belittle the efforts of our Army abroad show very bad taste indeed. I have received letters from America, and I read in the American newspapers as well, accounts which gave wonderful praise and credit to the members of our Army for the distinctions they won in competition against armies from other countries that had years of tradition and of training behind them, and armies, too, that were not stinted in any way so far as financial support went. I think our Army did very well, and the people in America are proud of them. It ill becomes Deputy O'Kelly to stand up here in the House and make little of his own people who did their best to uphold the traditions of this country abroad. I am greatly surprised that Deputy O'Kelly expressed the remarks he did here to-night.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Most of the speeches seem to have only a very attenuated connection with the Estimate before us. Deputy Aiken, in his usual uninformed way, was, roughly, £200,000 out in his figures. He doubted if we had a national Government in control of the country.

Mr. Aiken

Did the Minister examine the Estimates to see if I was £200,000 out?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I said what I said, and I think I am right.

Mr. Aiken

I ask the Minister to read the Estimates.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think the Deputy said that, independent of Army pensions, the expenditure on the Army was £1,600,000, roughly. His roughness was only £200,000 out. He questioned was there a real national Government in control of the country. The Government in control of the country is the result of elections held on adult suffrage. These elections indicated the persons in whom the power of government should rest. The Deputy says we must have got our advertisements at a special rate. He thinks we spend several thousands, if not tens of thousands, on advertisements. It may be the notion of prices given for advertisements which makes Deputies opposite so fantastically optimistic about the future of their proposed newspaper. The fact is that there was nothing like £1,000 spent on advertisements. He talked of the comparatively large number who came forward in Trinity College. I do not think it was a comparatively large number. I am very glad to see young men. I do not mind what Party they belong to, coming forward and joining a body of men whose sole purpose is to make themselves available for the service of the country. I do not care whether they come from Trinity College, Fianna Fáil or elsewhere.

Mr. Aiken

It is to be a Reserve for the British Army. That is its sole purpose.

Mr. Fitzgerald

It is not its purpose. Deputy Davin talked about my making a fighting and provocative speech yesterday, and he commented on that as being out of harmony with the fact of our being represented at the Naval Disarmament Conference in London. Yesterday I said nothing in my remarks that could be regarded as of a fighting and provocative nature. As a matter of fact, the only complaint made about my remarks was that I did not say enough. Following the innocuous and inoffensive remarks of mine a general discussion took place. Deputies opposite objected to certain things, and they made charges that were mutually contradictory, for they have no coherence of thought amongst them. I endeavoured to reply to remarks that showed an ignorance and wrongheadedness calculated to make one angry. In relation to a fighting and provocative speech, and as to having a representative at the Naval Disarmament Conference in London, there was one part of my speech which bore on that. I do not remember my exact words, but they were something like this: that the Army and Volunteer Reserve exists for the reason that the Irish Free State exists, for the well-being of all the people who live in the State, and that it was necessary for their material and spiritual well-being. That being so, it was a reasonable thing they should come forward and defend the State in case of need. That was the only statement I made which had any relation whatever to our being represented at the Naval Conference. That statement I do not regard as coming under the description of fighting and provocative, but as simply an ordinary elementary statement of civic ethics, and entirely in harmony with any effort that may be made in any part of the world in the interests of peace.

Mr. Davin

What I wanted to suggest was that the speech yesterday afternoon was provocative in so far as it dealt with the chief Opposition Party.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I was replying to remarks made by Deputies opposite which were based on a misunderstanding of the whole situation, and when you have to combat ignorance you have to deal with it with such weapons. The Deputy referred to the entertaining of distinguished outsiders.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy was not allowed to deal with that, and the Minister cannot deal with it.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Deputy Esmonde complained of not being generous to the men who go abroad with our teams. We treat them as generously as any country in the world. The financial system of the country is that when any Department in one way or another earns money that is graded as a grant-in-aid and it goes into the general fund.

Mr. Aiken

The Minister challenged my figures with reference to the Army Estimate, and he said I was £200,000 out. I would like to read an extract from the Estimates published by his Department.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy quoting from last year's Estimates?

Mr. Aiken

Yes. It says the total expenditure on the Army was £1,830,000. One has to deduct from that £253,000, which leaves £1,577,000. That, I take, is not £200,000 short of £1,600,000. I said that the Army cost the country, exclusive of pensions, roughly about £1,600,000, and the Minister said I was £200,000 out.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I said roughly, and I repeat the word "roughly."

Mr. Aiken

The Minister said, and everybody here heard him say, that I was £200,000 out when I said the Army was costing £1,600,000, exclusive of pensions. I suppose the Estimates are prepared under the Minister's supervision, and the Estimate shows that the expenditure on the Army was £1,577,000, exclusive of pensions.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think the Estimate is £1,440,000.

Mr. Aiken

Well, the Minister is wrong.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Deputy O'Kelly and others think that our team going abroad did not win any prize money. As a matter of fact, it won a fairly considerable sum.

Mr. O'Kelly

I did not say any.

Mr. Fitzgerald

He said that the amount they won would not have gone far in the way of buying drinks for them. I may say that if the team during their absence had consumed drinks to the value of a small fraction of the prize money won, I should have felt called upon to get them out of the Army on account of their heavy drinking habits. As a matter of fact, the team did extraordinarily well. They have brought a name both to our country and to Irish horses that has been quite extraordinary. I have seen reports from interested people in the countries they have visited and I have also heard from people in a position to speak authoritatively that their performances in these countries has had the immediate effect of increasing the sale of Irish horses. The men have held their own with practically every country with which they competed. They have won prizes equal to those won by any other country at the shows at which they have competed and certainly the prize money amounted to a very substantial sum.

Mr. O'Kelly

About how much?

Mr. Fitzgerald

Something over £1,000. I am not speaking by the book, but it is roughly about that. That comes in as a grant-in-aid. The financial system of the State cannot be carried on in that way, that when money is to be spent, it is to be spent out of State funds, but that when it is earned, it has to go into private pockets. That is not our financial system here. Deputy Kerlin I think suggested that I was misleading yesterday when I spoke of the difference between the "B" Reserve and the Volunteer Reserve. I think it was Deputy Aiken who talked about men starving in this country and still not joining the Volunteer Reserve. I pointed out to him that, if such a question as starvation came into the matter, the more likely thing for a man to join would be the "B" Reserve.

The Deputy knows that the gratuities, such as they are, from £5 to £15 for the Volunteer Reserve are only paid after a year's drills and a fortnight in camp. I put it to the Deputy that if he were in the starving condition that Deputy Aiken thinks everybody in this country is in, and he had the choice of joining the "B" Reserve and being fed and paid immediately for three months, or of participating in one year's drill, plus a fortnight in camp, and getting a gratuity, he would, I think, choose the "B" Reserve. That was, I think, the gist of my remarks yesterday.

Mr. Kerlin

Are not the regulations the same for each Reserve, and are not the grants in each case only paid after the period of training?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think the "B" reservist is paid in the ordinary way as an ordinary soldier when he joins for the first three months. When he is called up for training he receives 30 days' pay at 2/- per day, and he gets a service grant at the end of the time. He is actually paid during his time of service.

Mr. Kerlin

A man who joins the "B" Reserve is not necessarily called up for training.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Yes. When he joins the "B" Reserve, he joins by actually coming in for training. The Deputy does not seem to have read the regulations in the matter.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 51.

Tá

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Cole, John James.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• MacEóin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Crowley, James.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Higgins, Thomas.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reynolds, Patrick.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• Vaughan, Daniel.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.
• Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carty, Frank.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Everett, James.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• French, Seán.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Reynolds, Patrick.
• Ryan, James.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Smith, Patrick.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Question declared carried.