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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 7

Local Government (Dublin) Bill, 1929—Second Stage.

I beg to move: "That this Bill be now read a Second Time." The main matters with which this Bill proposes to deal refer to the local government of the city of Dublin and to the proposed coastal borough and the occurrence of certain changes of a minor but not unimportant character as a kind of background. It would be well that we should see these changes first and bear in mind certain dates. First, there is the date of election, the date on which the new city council, the coastal borough council and new county council will be elected. The next date to keep in mind is the appointed day, which will be fourteen days from that date. Then we come to the 1st April, 1931, or, perhaps, the 1st April, 1932. There are between the land boundaries of Dublin and the sea twenty-five bodies which deal in some way with local government matters. Certain clearances will take place in this respect. In the first place the provisions of the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, which superseded boards of guardians by boards of public assistance, and the further Act of 1925 which transferred the duties of rural district councils to county councils were held up in their application to the county and city of Dublin pending the settlement of matters relating to the local government of the city and county following the Report of the Commission on the government of the city and county of Dublin. It is proposed to apply those Acts now to the county, and the Boards of Guardians, namely, Balrothery, Rathdown, and the Dublin Union, will go out of office from fourteen days after the date of election. For the present their places will be taken, so far as Balrothery is concerned, by a group set up by the county council to deal with the duties of the board of guardians in the present area. A similar group will be set up by the new county council for Rathdown, and another group shall be jointly set up by the county council and the new city council in connection with the Dublin Union.

Similarly, rural councils disappear as from fourteen days after the date of election and their duties will be transferred to the county council or the board of health as the case may be which will be set up by the county council. It is proposed to dissolve the Urban Councils of Rathmines, Pembroke, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and Killiney. Arising out of that there will be further dissolutions, namely: the Joint Hospital Board of Rathmines and Pembroke; the Joint Drainage Board of Rathmines and Pembroke, and the Joint Drainage Board of Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock. That will clear seventeen bodies in all. There will be left in the county the new county council to be elected, the board of health which will be set up by the county council, the Town Commissioners of Balbriggan in connection with the elections for which there has been no change and the Urban District Council of Howth at present run by a commissioner and to be run by a commissioner to a date not later than June, 1931. There shall be a coastal borough in connection with which there will be the Dean's Grange Cemetery Board, the Port Sanitary Authority concerned with Howth, Dun Laoghaire and the city as regards the prevention of sea-borne disease. There will be the Port and Docks Board, the new County Borough of Dublin and the Grangegorman Mental Hospital Board. In all, there will be ten bodies left and if you add the three temporary bodies dealing with the duties of board of guardians in the county it will bring the number to thirteen.

That is the background in regard to which changes in connection with the city of Dublin and the new coastal borough will take place. It is proposed to extend the area of the city of Dublin and to take in the present Urban District Councils of Rathmines and Pembroke and certain rural areas specified in the Schedule. It is proposed to set up a council of twenty-five and a City Manager to run the affairs of the city. It is proposed to pool the debts and assets of the various bodies which will form the new city, and to have an equalised municipal rate with the stabilisation of certain rates in connection with Rathmines and Pembroke and the rural areas brought in in order to avoid any immediate increase in rates as the result of those areas being brought into the city. The settlement of the present rates exemption, the rates that will be paid by bodies holding exemptions from municipal rates, will be on a certain percentage of valuation, so that the moneys paid in future will be comparable with the moneys paid in the past. It is proposed to extend to the workmen in Rathmines and Pembroke the pension arrangements which at present apply to the workmen employed in the city of Dublin. In connection with the coastal borough it is proposed to form such borough from the townships of Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and Killiney without taking in rural areas and it is proposed to apply the same arrangement to that as applies in the case of the City Manager, the equalisation of municipal rates, certain exemptions in regard to land and the extension of the pension scheme to the workers in the coastal borough which exists in the city.

In connection with these proposals we have to look back somewhat especially in regard to Rathmines and Pembroke, and then consider the present proposals in the light of proposals made by the Commission set up to examine the position in the City and County of Dublin. I understand that it will be argued here, as it has been argued before the Commission referred to, that Rathmines and Pembroke should not be included in the city. In respect to that, we have to look back. Prior to 1840, the area comprised in Pembroke formed portion of the Borough of Dublin, but on the revision of the boundaries of the Borough effected by the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act, 1840, that area was excluded from the Borough and remained without any form of municipal government until 1863, when the area was formed into a township. The area of Rathmines and Rathgar appears never to have formed part of the Borough of Dublin and to have had no form of municipal government until 1847, when the area then known as Rathmines was constituted a township with an area of 930 acres. The township was subsequently extended in 1862 by the addition of Harold's Cross; in 1866, by the addition of Sallymount and Rathgar; and in 1880 by the addition of Milltown. From 1840 to 1847 Rathmines, and from 1840 to 1863, Pembroke, were under the jurisdiction of the Grand Jury of the County of Dublin. In 1876 a Select Committee of the House of Commons was appointed to inquire into the state of the municipal government of towns and cities in Ireland, and after inquiry and the consideration of a report presented to them by W.P.O'Brien, an Inspector of the Local Government Board for Ireland, that Committee reported that a general inquiry into the subject of municipal areas should be undertaken and that a Commission should be appointed for that purpose. Accordingly, by warrant dated 31st October, 1878, the Lord Lieutenant appointed W.A. Exham, K.C.; W.P. O'Brien, an inspector of the Local Government Board for Ireland, and C.P. Cotton, C.E., as a Commission to inquire into the question of the extension of municipal boundaries. This Commission is known as the Boundaries Commission of 1878, and is sometimes referred to as the Exham Commission.

Until this Commission was appointed no question of amalgamating Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke with the Borough of Dublin had arisen, but on its appointment the Corporation of Dublin petitioned the Commission to recommend the extension of the boundaries of the Borought to include the townships of Rathmines and Rathgar, Pembroke, Kilmainham, Drumcondra, Clonliffe and Glasnevin, and certain parts of the county of Dublin. A petition was also presented from certain ratepayers in Clontarf praying for the inclusion of the township in the Borough. The Corporation did not make application for the inclusion of Clontarf, because they had considered that the township was separated from the Borough by a belt of agricultural land. The Commission duly heard the case presented by the Corporation and reported that the boundaries of the Borough of Dublin should be extended to include the townships of Rathmines, Pembroke, Kilmainham, Drumcondra and Clontarf, and also certain portions of the county, mainly lying to the south of Rathmines and Pembroke. No action was taken by the Legislature of the day on the report, and none of its recommendations were in consequence ever carried out.

During the period from 1881 to 1898 the question of the extension of the boundaries of the Borough of Dublin became acute, and in 1898 the Corporation promoted a Bill for the inclusion within the boundaries of the Borough of the areas recommended by the Boundaries Commission. The Bill, with certain slight amendments, was passed by the House of Commons by a large majority, but on going to the House of Lords was amended by the exclusion of Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke. On the Bill being sent back to the House of Commons with the Lords' amendments, the House of Commons refused to accept their amendments, the consequence being that the Bill was lost in 1899 through the expiration of the then session of Parliament. The Corporation, however, encouraged by their success in the House of Commons, reintroduced in 1900 the Bill as amended in the first instance by the House of Commons, and that Bill was-committed to a Joint Committee of both Houses, which, after a lengthy and exhaustive hearing of the evidence, rejected the claim of the Corporation for the inclusion of Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke. The Corporation were perforce obliged to accept the amended Bill, which became the Act of 1900, under which Drumcondra, Kilmainham, Clontarf and certain portions of the County of Dublin were brought within the Borough. The Joint Committee which considered the Bill of 1900, made a special report to both Houses of the heavy burdens falling upon the City of Dublin to which the townships of Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke did not adequately contribute, and suggested that legislation should be proposed to Parliament to equalise those burdens.

Following upon those recommendations, the Dublin Corporation promoted a Bill for the purpose, which became law under the title of the Dublin, Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke (Equalisation of Rates) Act, 1901, which provided for the equalisation of the rates over the city, Rathmines and Rathgar, and Pembroke, regarded as one area in respect of expenses incurred for the following purposes:—(1) Sanitary purposes under the Public Health Acts, excluding main drainage and water works: (2) public lighting; (3) streets, including maintenance and cleansing; (4) markets; (5) reformatory and industrial schools, and (6) lunatic asylums. The justice of the case for including in the city area Rathmines and Pembroke was so apparent that although the British Legislature actually turned down proposals to include them the Joint Committee that dealt with them pointed out that these areas were so circumstanced with regard to one another there should be equalisation of rates in respect of some of these matters. It is worth recalling the points put up by the Dublin Corporation in 1879 as the grounds on which the inclusion of Rathmines and Pembroke should take place. They argued:—(1) That the townships were separated from the city by an artificial boundary only; (2) that persons living in the townships ought to be considered and in fact were almost as much citizens of Dublin as those living in the city; (3) that the city was included in a ring fence and could not grow; (4) that the townships are a continuation of and part of Dublin; (5) that the principal portion of residents of the townships were merchants and professional persons who used the city daily for their business purposes, but resided in the townships to avoid city taxation and to obtain the purer air there which they could not obtain in the city proper; (6) that the residents of the townships thus escaped all taxation necessary to maintain the city and avoided their proper share of responsibility for the efficient management of the city in and by which they made their living; (7) that Dublin City has been built up and cannot be extended otherwise than by including the townships and portions of the county; (8) that the artisan class and labourers who have built the houses in the townships and engaged in maintaing them live almost exclusively in the city, thereby increasing its expenses; (9) that the sanitary expenses of the city were increased by the number of tenement houses in the city in which the poorer classes live, and this expense is thrown exclusively on the city and unfairly benefits those who make daily use of their labour and services; (10) that the roads and streets of the city are used by the inhabitants of the townships, with its educational and other advantages, thus increasing expense for maintenance and seavenging; (11) that building materials and daily supplies of people in the townships are drawn from and through the city; (12) that the townships do not contribute to hospitals, etc., nor to the cattle market, abbatoir, etc.; (13) that the repairing and seavenging of streets in the city and its sanitary condition is of immense importance to the inhabitants of the townships, who ought to contribute to its expenses and also to the increased charges of the city caused by the large number of poor people in the city; (14) that the townships fulfilled all the conditions upon which extension of towns has taken place in England as being suburbs or rather parts of the city and not merely suburban rural districts exclusively built on.

That was the case made by the city of Dublin more than fifty years ago; that was made in 1901, after thirteen years of equalisation of rates as between Rathmines and Pembroke and the city in certain matters, by the Act that had to be introduced by the City of Dublin Corporation. The whole proceedings, apart altogether from the cost of the inquiry dealing with the equalisation of the rates in 1901-1902, and again ten years after that —this whole inquiry and the whole prosecution of legislation in 1898 and 1901 cost the city of Dublin £50,000 without achieving the object that the city then thought should be achieved, and that the House of Commons in Great Britain, by a majority of three to one, thought should be achieved too. However, that is, as I say, looking back. What the House here has to decide, among other matters, in connection with this Bill is whether Rathmines and Pembroke are to be brought into the city. The consideration of this matter was gone into by a Commission that inquired into the government of the city and county of Dublin, and it not only came to the conclusion that Rathmines and Pembroke should come in, but that the city should be given further extensions. I recall that matter to show the historical background to that position with regard to these two townships, because I understand it will be argued that these two areas ought not to come in. Now we have to see what we are doing in relation to the proposals of the Greater Dublin Commission.

As against what we are proposing, the Greater Dublin Commission recommends that an area should be taken in to Greater Dublin that would extend from Malahide to Killiney; and that a great council should be set up over that area, and that inside that council representatives on that council from the coastal borough—that is, from the four urban districts of Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, and Killiney— should act as a council in dealing with certain matters of local interest which they describe in Schedule 3; and that in respect of the Pembroke area that representatives from Pembroke should act as an advisory council in regard to those local matters in Pembroke, and that representatives from Rathmines should act as an advisory body with regard to local matters dealing with Rathmines. But the rest of the council should deal with matters outside these areas—that is, matters dealing with the present city proper and the rural area that extends to Howth and Malahide.

In approaching the proposals of the Greater Dublin Commission, I, as it were, took it that a case had been made for the green line, the boundary mark on the map of the Greater Dublin Commission's Report. I began the consideration of the matter from the point of view of the county. I found that the acceptance of the Commission's proposal would leave us with a county with 29 per cent. of its present rural population and 28 per cent. of the valuation of the present rural area, and that it would place upon the County Council the problem of dealing with local government for that percentage of their present rural population, with 28 per cent. of their present rural valuation as their financial foundation, and that they would have to carry out the administration of local government over 85 per cent. of their present rural areas. It appeared quite clear that what we would have surrounding our metropolitan area would be a new Leitrim with twice as many people only per acre as there are in Leitrim, with twice the valuation per person that Leitrim has, and with an area more effectively divided off in the middle by the City of Dublin than Leitrim is by Lough Allen. I convinced myself that the conduct of the local government of the County of Dublin would be impossible under such conditions. But still accepting that I would find that a case was made for the satisfactory carrying out of local government by accepting the green line, I considered that perhaps the remaining portion of the County of Dublin should be divided; that North County Dublin should be thrown into Meath, and that South County Dublin should be thrown into Wicklow, and that instead of three county councils we would have two county councils to carry on the work. It was clear on the financial side that the rates in North County Dublin could be comparatively considerably reduced, and that the rates in Meath would rise to a small extent. In so far as it was possible to carry out an examination on purely theoretical grounds, the rates in North County Dublin would be reduced by 2s. 6d., and the rates in Meath raised by 1s. That is accepting that there were no economies effected in the doing away with the extra county council. As far as South Dublin was concerned, the rates there might be reduced by 1s., and the rates in Wicklow increased by 1s. But when I came to consider an administrative change of that kind, and even a social change of that kind, and the political effects of a change of that kind, then I was driven back to consider what were the interests of the citizens of Dublin, or the citizens of any townships, that would warrant making changes of that particular kind.

After very, very careful consideration of the matter we were driven to the conclusion that the proposals set out by the Greater Dublin Commission for dealing with the local government of the city and urban districts and rural districts which they proposed to take in were not satisfactory and that in practice when it came to be worked out they did not provide as effectively for the proper carrying on of the business of the people as a different method might. Just as it is very much in our own minds, it was uppermost in the minds of the members of the Greater Dublin Commission that Dublin was extending and would extend. But due to the fact that Dublin is extending there is a certain burden thrown down on the city. There is a burden thrown down for supporting the loans for the further extension of water, drainage and housing, and it is essential that while bearing these burdens that these burdens would not be made unnecessarily great by stretching them out too much. Where objection can be found to the setting up of the greater council and the taking in from Malahide to Killiney is on the grounds, in the first case, that the local government problem presented there is not a homogeneous one. The council dealing with that area could never get their minds clear that they were dealing with an urban problem, because too much of that rural area would be brought in. Arising out of the want of homogencity of the problem presented to them, the representation proposed was wrong. The representation proposed in the Commission's Report would give 108,000 local government voters in the old City of Dublin, 35 representatives, while giving half of that number or 54,000 local government voters in the rest of that area 30 representatives. The representation system then arising out of want of homogeneity of the problem is wrong. I do not believe the council control could be worked. You were to have a great council dealing with all different matters set out in Schedule 2 of the Report, 34 items. The items set out in Schedule 3, that is, cleansing of roads, street surfacing public lighting, provision of standards and lamps, abattoirs, markets, domestic seavenging, public sanitary conveniences, public baths, wash-houses, and local amenities such as parks, pleasure grounds, piers and promenades, were to be the peculiar responsibility of the local councils. You would have certain matters discussed locally in the coastal borough, and certain matters discussed locally in Pembroke and Rathmines but no local discussion for Howth, Malahide and Raheny beyond general matters dealt with in the council.

Deputies may have seen recently where a meeting of citizens was held in Dun Laoghaire with regard to the wants of Dun Laoghaire, and they may have seen that a fortnight or so before a meeting asking for the formation of a north coastal borough was held by persons interested in the Howth, Malahide, Baldoyle and Sutton side. The discussion that took place at these meetings, and the very calling of these meetings, shows another great objection to the Greater Dublin Commission proposals. The bringing of these areas into the city on the grounds that they were growing and developing, and that they ought to be provided with services of a particular kind, raised extravagant hopes in the minds of the people of these not yet urbanised areas that they are going to be provided with very great services. For instance, the Baldoyle, Sutton and Howth people want a main drainage scheme analogous to that of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire, and the Government is supposed to pay for it. They want a big road scheme from Malahide to the city, and the Government is supposed to pay for it. In the same way slum clearing and houses are wanted in Dun Laoghaire. Coastal area roads are wanted; improvements on the sea front and general improvements in the amenities of the seaside resorts are considered necessary, all involving a big amount of money which is to come from somewhere else than the areas in question. If these areas are brought into the city there is no reason why there should be Government assistance to provide drainage for Howth, Sutton and Baldoyle similar to that which the Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire people have had to pay for in their own areas. Similarly, the Pembroke and Rathmines people have had to pay for theirs, and the Dublin people have had to pay for their own.

What we want to provide in the proper development of the Dublin area is the widest flung area that can be satisfactorily administered, and that will contain a homogeneous circumference. With that in our minds we have considered that the most satisfactory area for the Dublin county borough is the city, Rathmines, Pembroke and certain rural areas that we have fully examined and marked out. A number of the rural areas that it has been often suggested should come into the city on the grounds that they were urbanised, or were being rapidly urbanised, were found in fact to have been diminishing in population between 1911 and 1926. The areas that we have proposed to come into the city are areas where definite urbanisation has taken place. In so far as is possible we have not divided townlands, but in three cases as far as the city is concerned we have divided townlands for the reason that the townlands were large and if the whole of them were taken in we would have taken in rural areas that did not appear to be required for development for some years to come.

Turning then to the coastal borough there is the fact that if the four urban districts along the coast were taken from the county council, the county council administration would be made exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, and the burden that would be thrown on the people would be very much increased. Apart altogether from that fact, we have had to come to the conclusion that the coastal borough is a separate place from the city in the whole outlook at the present moment. Their heart is the seafront and their whole life has grown up around the seafront. In so far as services are required for them, the services that would warrant joining in, taking their present position, would be that they would require water from the city or drainage from the city or that they would require roads. As far as water is concerned they have it at present and they are paying a satisfactory price to the city for it. As far as drainage is concerned, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire have their own drainage, and under no circumstances can that drainage be linked up with the city drainage; it is a separate system in itself. Dalkey would require some additional drainage service and Killiney has not a drainage service at the moment. The drainage services there will have to be improved. But Dublin City cannot help Killiney or Dalkey by taking their drainage into the Dublin drainage system.

No case can be made in the matter of roads for requiring the linking up of the two areas because the machinery for dealing with the city as a compact area—the road making machinery—will be organised for that area economically. Additional road making control would be wanted in the coastal borough and the advantage, if any—and it is doubtful if there would be any advantage—of joining up the coastal borough to the city for the purpose of having joint control of roads would not be such as to outweigh the disadvantage that would otherwise arise, the disadvantage being that at the present moment the problem that the new Council of the City of Dublin will have before them in settling down for their new administration will be to direct all their attention on the city and the city's peculiar problems, which are different from the problems of the new coastal borough. The residents in the coastal borough could hardly expect to get that close attention from the city at present that they would get from their own council. The representation of the coastal borough, if brought into the city, as I have shown, could not be satisfactory either, and the general affairs of the coastal borough in its present state of development and the present state of development of the city can best be left in our opinion to itself.

The question arises from the Dublin point of view for what purpose does Dublin City want the coastal borough attached to it? What advantage can it be to it? I know of no advantage that it can be to the citizens of Dublin to bring in the coastal borough and to make the Dublin Council responsible for the administration of its affairs. I should like to see it shown that it would reduce the rates in Dublin by a halfpenny in the £. What Dublin really wants in any reorganisation is the proper settlement of efficient management there, and that it will have fairly satisfactory powers of extension. The city is prevented from extending over to the sea by an angle of about 69 degrees. It is prevented from extending down against Blackrock by an angle of about fourteen or fifteen degrees, and of the 360 degrees in four right angles, it has about 280 degrees in which it can extend. As far as the extension of the city is concerned, the last place that the city would decide to extend itself is down to or at the back of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. If extension is going to take place there, it can most satisfactorily be controlled from the Dun Laoghaire side at the present moment. When further extension does take place, then the question of whether the joint interest will be served by amalgamating the two areas can be considered. Bearing in mind that the urbanisation is going on round the forceps of Dublin Bay, we have introduced a provision into the Bill by which if either the council of Howth or the council of the city, or the council of the coastal borough consider an extension is wanted, they can make application for such extension as they want. An inquiry can be held by the Local Government Department, and such extension as a case is made for can be made the subject of a provisional order which can be passed through this Oireachtas. So that there will be a systematic and easy way of extending the area that will be controlled by the urban authorities around the Bay, and the process of urbanisation going on gradually there can go on under the public eye with a thorough sensing by the councils responsible for the administration of the area, and by the people as regards the joining up of further urban areas.

As regards not taking rural areas into the coastal borough, a private measure was introduced in 1924 by the Urban Councils of Blackrock Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey for joining these three areas into a borough. No proposals were made in that measure for the extension of the boundaries of the borough. No provisions, so far as I recollect, were inserted in the measure giving power in a simple way for extension. If there was an urgent pressure on the local bodies for extension, they would, I submit, have made some kind of provision in their Bill for it. If Deputies will look at the map prepared by the Greater Dublin Commission and look at the road stretching from Temple Hill up to Cabinteely and Loughlinstown and see what urbanisation is going on there, I think they will be convinced that there was no case for bringing that area into the borough. Of the forty-three townlands which it was proposed should be included within the boundary line of the coastal borough, twenty-six have a population of less than one per acre, and fourteen of these have actually decreased in population since 1911. I submit that the House may leave it to the local authority, planning for their own area and looking at their problem, to say whether further extension of their boundary is necessary in order properly to look after the interests of the citizens of these districts.

Part of Deputy O'Connell's amendment takes exception to there not being provided in the Bill a local authority of any kind for dealing with matters common to the metropolitan area as a whole. I am sure the Deputy will give us an idea as to what he means. I submit that the new city, the new borough, and Howth, with simple powers of extension, give you all the chances for growth that are desirable. The next thing that is required, if you want something else besides the Department for Local Government to control that growth by inquiry, is what would be called a town-planning or regional planning board. I do not know if that is what the Deputy has in mind. If that is so, I should like to know what town-planning is for. Exception has been taken in other places to the fact that there is no provision for town-planning in this measure. When we deal with legislation for town-planning we want to be quite clear in our minds what the object of it is. The object, I suppose, that Deputy O'Connell and others have in mind is that proper steps should be taken that there would be a reasonable and co-ordinated development of roads, drainage services, and all that, in the areas outside. What we want for that is a clear conception of a regional plan. We want legislation for that, and I submit that no body ought to be established to look after regional planning in a frame of mind of wanting over-organisation for greatness sake.

For some months, I have had the Department examining the problem of town planning so that it can be dealt with, but certain problems have to be solved before it can be effectively dealt with. There is no use in introducing legislation that will not thoroughly realise these problems and that will not deal with them, not only in a theoretical way, but in a practical way. As I say, the situation has been thoroughly examined, but I think regional planning outside the city and into the county should be for the purpose of serving the interests of a growing city and the city council comes into that. As it is regional planning extending into the county, it brings in the county council. If any body is going to act as an advisory body for regional planning in the County Dublin, in my present frame of mind, with the problem not fully examined, and not having come to the stage at which we can put legislation before the House, I see no other body but one such as this: The Lord Mayor of Dublin and one or two of the city councillors; the chairman of the county council and perhaps one member of the council; the mayor of the coastal borough and, say, one member of the coastal borough, and the chairman of the Urban District Council of Howth. Such matters as require to be dealt with or to be examined for the purpose of seeing what regional development is and the preparation of plans would require a body like that. If Deputies are looking for the establishment of a local authority of a kind for dealing with matters common to the metropolitan area as a whole, if they want any other body, I should like to know what body they want, and what things they have in mind as common to the area as a whole. So much with regard to we submit to the House as the most satisfactory areas that can be set out.

Next we come to the proposal that there be associated with the councils governing these areas a manager—a manager for the City of Dublin and a manager for the coastal borough. A considerable amount of talk has been indulged in to the effect that in providing for the appointment of a City Manager our Bill is subversive of representative government. Deputy O'Connell, in his amendment, objects to the Bill on the ground that it deprives the citizens of effective control over the administration of their municipal affairs. The history of local government is the history of the devolution of the powers of the central government to locally-established authorities arising out of the necessity of meeting local or national needs as they arose. In the first instance, they were confined to certain aspects of the poor law. Gradually they grew, and they grew from time to time in a haphazard way and, in consequence, the local government organisation has grown up in a haphazard and piecemeal way and not in pursuance of any organic conception of the function, broad and comprehensive in its scope, under which the orderly and progressive expansion of local government services and machinery could be co-ordinated and secured. That devolution of power has proceeded at a great pace during the last thirty years and has resulted in a system under which an ever-increasing complex mass of administrative and deliberative functions has been devolved upon local authorities without sufficient consideration being paid either to the question of their capacity or the ability of the machine to deal adequately with those functions. In view of the importance of the proper exercise of local government functions to the welfare of the community and of the financial effects of bad and uneconomic management, it has become of paramount importance to secure the utmost efficiency in execution by local authorities of their powers and duties. Local government is dynamic —it cannot stand still. It is continually adapting itself or being adapted by the legislature to new functions imposed upon it. A tribute must be paid to the efforts of those public-spirited members of local authorities who, caught up in a complexity of system which it would require years of study adequately to understand, have grappled with the problems of local government and endeavoured, with very considerable success and with limited means at their disposal, to secure the efficient local government of their areas. A point, however, appears to have been reached at which, in the interests of better local government, a separation of the deliberative and administrative functions of local authorities is desirable, particularly in reference to the larger municipalities, where the complexity of function is most apparent, and large financial matters are concerned. It is conceived that such a separation would be entirely in accord with modern democratic theory and practice. Such a separation should ideally take place on the lines that the purely administrative and executive functions of local government should, in an important local government area such as a large municipal borough, be entrusted to an expert officer capable of co-ordinating and controlling the management of the local government business of the authority. That officer must necessarily be invested with all the necessary powers for that purpose and be responsible to the local authority for the satisfactory discharge of his duties.

It is the aim of this Bill, as it was the aim of the Cork Bill, to devise such a system of separation of powers for the City of Dublin, the capital city of the country. Modern theory and practice both concur in the view that the expert administrator is a necessary institution in local government required for the dispassionate consideration and solution of local government problems. Admittedly the problem is to secure the proper demarcation of functions between the expert administrator and the local government body. Such demarcation should apparently follow the lines which separate the deliberative functions of the local authority from their purely administrative functions. We have in this country progressed very far in the matter of improving our machinery for local government. We have progressed that far because, I think, there has been a general appreciation not only in the different parties in the country, but throughout the people of the country as a whole, of the lines upon which the main local government machinery should be formed.

In Cork, no doubt.

We set up a manager system in Cork and we gave certain reserved functions to the manager.

It is a failure. You reserved all to the manager.

We said that these, in our opinion, are sufficient to give the Cork Council complete control over policy in their city, complete control over the machinery, complete control over the manager, who is their executive and administrative officer, while leaving him full and free responsibility to carry out their policy without interference in the matters of detail.

They were told explicitly in the Act that such additional powers as they considered were required in order to give them the necessary control over policy could be given by Order after the passing of the necessary resolution detailing what these powers should be, if necessary after an inquiry into the matter and after a decision by the Minister for Local Government that these powers should be given.

Surely the Minister must be aware that the City Manager in Cork absolutely refuses to take or even to obey any orders given him by the Council.

I am not aware of anything good, bad or indifferent about it.

You are not aware that by a majority of 14 to 4 the Council decided against the Cork City Manager.

Although the Cork City Council has power to sit down and examine what powers the Council require as reserved functions I have not had a scrap of a suggestion from them that a scrap of additional power is required.

You will not be so.

I hope I will not be so, if the proper dividing of the control from the executive and the administrative sides of local government interests requires that there should be additional powers and functions given.

Did the Minister receive a request from the Cork Corporation to meet a deputation this week?

Let us not discuss the Cork Corporation.

If we may say another word or two upon the matter, I did, but I did not receive the slightest suggestion as to what additional powers are wanted. I have informed the Cork Corporation that I will be delighted to see them when I have heard from them what additional powers are required by them. As I say, there is common appreciation through the country, I find, of the lines upon which improvement in the fashioning of the local government machine is necessary. Going into the matter, the Greater Dublin Commission proposes, in fact, what we have attempted to provide in Cork, a City Manager that will deal with the executive and the administrative side of what the council wants to do. We can look in a few moments at what difference there is between what we are proposing here and what is proposed in the Commission. What we are trying to do, and trying to do, not as a matter of theory but trying to do on the practical side, is to find out what exactly the reserved functions are that ought to be reserved to the council in order that they may control local policy and local development and to keep them from interfering in what should be the functions of their chief administrator, because we have got to realise this, that the proper carrying on of the services for democracy must mean that with the non-expert democratic elected body you must associate the expert, and you must give the expert independence that will enable him to carry out the work that the democratic body wants. That does not mean that you set up a democratic body and an expert in order that the expert will flout the democratic body.

That is what is occurring in Cork.

That is not what is occurring in Cork. I have heard a lot more about it. But that is what is necessary, that you have your expert to work out the policy of the democratic body and that he be not interfered with. We have no provisions in our Bill for making it a misdemeanour if a member of the council interferes with the Manager in carrying out his business but so keenly did the Greater Dublin Commission feel on the matter and so clearly did they realise that it must interfere with the interests of the people if the Manager is interfered with unnecessarily that they would propose to make it a misdemeanour for a member of the council to interfere with the Manager except in a formal way in the carrying out of his work.

So what we are concerned with in this legislation, whether dealing with the Dublin Bill, with the members of the Oireachtas or with the Cork Bill, with the elected members of the Cork Council, is to find out not as a matter of theory but from the actual practical working point of view what the division exactly of functions should be. The Commission proposed, as far as the Manager is concerned, that the Manager should have an advisory council. The present Bill provides for the appointment of a Manager. The Commission sets down the different classes of directors there might be but the Manager must be the responsible person and I cannot see a more satisfactory advisory council for a Manager than the heads of the different services. For instance I would have the Manager deal directly with the head of the Engineering Department; I would have him deal directly with the head of the public health services. I would have him deal directly with the treasurer in the matter of finance. I would have him deal directly with the solicitor. These high officials, responsible for their own big departments should be the persons, if any, in my opinion, who ought to be the members of any advisory council. They are, in fact, the persons that the Manager will deal with and, if it is necessary, in the actual working out of the organisation under the Manager, that some other layer of responsibility ought to come in between him and the heads of these services then that is a matter for organisation, for the Manager in the carrying out of his responsibilities, in organising his machinery to arrange for such persons but I would not undertake to suggest in the Bill that, as well as having a Manager, we should, by statute, also say there shall be directors. There would have to be heads of special services.

On the question of the necessity for the Manager the total expenditure of the old City of Dublin for the year 1927-28 was £1,797,000. It is probably the biggest business in Dublin. It is a complex business and requires capable and, shall I say, independent management. When you appoint a Manager and make him independent of interference in the actual carrying out of his business you do not put him in a position to flout the authority or question the decisions of the council in which these matters of policy are concerned. It is absolutely essential, if you are going to have clear disinterested, efficient work that the Manager, be in an independent position for carrying out his duties. Even he requires to be independent in order to avoid the danger of being corrupt, so that when Deputy O'Connell argues that the present Bill deprives citizens of effective control over the administration of their municipal affairs I want to know does he object to a City Manager, and if he does not object to a City Manager what does he object to in this Bill with regard to the position proposed for a City Manager?

The council to be associated with the City Manager in the city and in the coastal borough is a small council. Carrying on the affairs in the city is a practical matter. Any Deputies who have any experience of the discussion of intricate matters in large councils will know how impossible it is to get clear, accurate, responsible discussion where there are a number of people present who are not taking part in the discussion. The number suggested for the council in the city is twenty-five, and the number suggested in the borough, fifteen. As far as the number suggested in the borough is concerned, that matter has been the subject of discussion between myself and the representatives in the borough, who put forward the Private Bill in 1924. I think we have come to fairly amicable conclusions that fifteen for the borough will serve the purpose of that area.

Deputies will remember in dealing with the Cork Bill that one thing that I was very anxious would not happen would be that Cork would be split up into wards, and that the new city council would be a city council that had a ward mentality. We proposed to make the coastal borough one electoral area, and we propose in the city that the city will be divided into three electoral areas. With regard to the council in the city it is proposed that there shall be twenty-one elected on the ordinary local government franchise, and that there shall be four elected on a special franchise, and this special franchise has been questioned as giving votes to property. Deputy O'Connell, in his amendment, suggests that the Bill should be rejected because it introduces the undemocratic precedent of conferring a special franchise, rights and privileges based on the possession of property. The local government franchise is based upon the occupation by a person of full age of rated premises. We will say that having established the fine industry that he has established in Cork, Mr. Henry Ford sent another detachment of his organisers to Dublin, and organised an aeroplane factory that was giving employment to as many people making aeroplanes in Dublin as there are employed making motors in Cork. Deputy O'Connell would regard it as undemocratic and as conferring special privileges upon the possession of property if the firm that were employing 6,000 people in the City of Dublin were given a local government franchise while the caretaker who may be living in the lodge of the works had a vote for himself and another for his wife if she were over thirty years of age. I do not know whether the Deputy wants to argue that the present local government franchise is the last thing in democracy.

Will the Minister state why he has not proposed to take away the vote from the caretaker?

Because it is not necessary. He is paying rates.

That argument was first used before the deluge.

The present local government vote is based on the occupation of rated premises. The total valuation of the old City of Dublin was £1,227,683. That is supposed to be the basis of the local government vote, but of that amount more than half, £628,847, is the valuation of business premises in the city. We are in the position that the tendency is for private persons running a business to become a company, even if we only refer to the ordinary individual. But when we turn to the big firms in the city giving, in commercial or manufacturing ways, employment, we are in the position that, although these firms have to pay a large amount of rates, a very high valuation in respect of premises not occupied as a matter of enjoyment of property but for the purposes of the carrying on of the life energy of the city by giving employment here, they have no franchise in respect of the rates they pay.

The question arose before the Greater Dublin Commission, and they recommended that votes be given to companies. The question arose rather late in the day when dealing with the Cork Bill. On going into the matter it seemed to be clear that the giving of a vote in respect of premises valued, say, at £1,000 or £500, and employed for the purpose of giving employment, was not a fair kind of equality with the giving of a vote to a person living in an ordinary house and using the house for living in simply. We felt, in order to be effective in the first place, that some other method had to be adopted and that there was another side to the case. Men engaged in business are very much immersed in their own affairs and do not go in for either national or municipal politics, and the work that they are doing is quite as necessary for the life of the people as the carrying on of local or national government. We must all realise that to a certain extent a man's first duty is to provide for himself and his dependents. He can be excused for engaging in his business for the purpose of doing that.

We also have to realise that local government has to be carried on and that if the local government of the City of Dublin is not properly carried on, the carrying on of ordinary business in the city is going to suffer. We felt that by giving a special franchise of a very limited kind to those people who paid rates on property, used by them not for occupation pure and simple, but for the purpose of giving employment, that a certain limited number of places on the council would be given to them, in the first place, in respect of the valuation of the property, the valuation of property being the basis of local government franchise. In the second place, we wanted those people, who are engaged in the business, commercial and manufacturing life of the city not to shut their eyes entirely, or to the extent which a large number of them have been doing, to the proper carrying on of the business of the city. If Deputies on the Labour Benches see the outraging of democratic rights in extending to persons occupying premises for business purposes a franchise of this particular kind, I would like to have it explained. I would like to have explained also whether we do or do not want in the councils of our municipalities men who are highly skilled, but who are so very much immersed in commerce and manufacturing business that they will not turn to the task of facing the ordinary electorate for local government election purposes.

Slum owners.

I do not know if the Deputy would get the draftsman to agree with him that slums come within the description contained in the Bill. From my point of view, if the Deputy can argue that the description of business premises can be interpreted as including slums, I will see that slums are taken out. The Deputy cannot deny that the commercial, manufacturing and industrial work in this city is providing the life blood of the city, and that there would be no local government necessary if it were not for it.

The Bill provides certain financial adjustments as between the present bodies and the bodies that are being absorbed. In the first place, in the city, to which will be added Rathmines, Pembroke and some rural areas, it is proposed that the assets and the debts of the various bodies will be pooled. That is a common practice in the association of existing bodies with one another to form a new unit. There is no other way, and it has never been possible to find another way of solving the matter. One area may have a burden of debt simply for the reason that they have laid down their roads or drainage, whereas another area which has been joined with it may have no debt, for the reason that its roads and drainage are in a bad condition; but generally when new areas are created, they are brought together because their interests are common interests. The services provided in each area have to a certain extent been commonly used by the people of those areas and there is a fair case for pooling the assets and the debts. As a matter of fact there is no other practicable way of dealing with the matter. In the City of Dublin at present there are thirteen different rates. The authority for these different rates comes from different statutes, many of them private statutes. The incidence of some of these rates is different and the method of recovering them in the Courts is different. The Bill proposes amalgamating all these rates in the municipal rate. The simplicity of the arrangement will be very great and the economy and general convenience of it will be much greater than can be imagined.

It is proposed in the case of the new city to stabilise the rates for Rathmines and Pembroke for a period of five years at the figure for the present year. The present rate in Pembroke is 12/4, and in Rathmines 12/8. The present rate in the city is 14/8. It is proposed to stabilise these rates in Pembroke and Rathmines at the present figure in so far as they are not increased by poor law charges. The reason for making a distinction for poor law charges is that there has been an additional burden put on the rates in respect of poor relief of the able-bodied since these rates were struck, and it is reasonable that Rathmines and Pembroke would pay their normal charge in connection with that matter. In the same way it is proposed to have a flat municipal rate for Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Dalkey and Killiney. It is proposed to stabilise the Killiney rate at its present figure of, I think, 12/8 or 12/4, as against 14/8 and 14/4 in the other places. The rate in Killiney will be stabilised for a period of five years, but there are certain exceptions of a particular kind in the city and in the boroughs confined to land and railways.

In the city there are certain classes of property indicated in the Schedule of the Bill, and it is proposed with regard to these properties, that while they will be rated on the full municipal rate, they will pay the full municipal rate only on a certain percentage of their valuation. The reason for this is that, if we take the case of railway companies, the following rates are paid in full: poor rate and criminal injuries. The domestic water rate is not paid in full, the rates for measurement or dead walls are not paid, and the following rates are paid on a quarter of the valuation only: the improvement rate, the district sewer rate, the grand jury rate, the domestic water rate, the borough rate, the library rate, the public water rate, and the police rate. In previous consolidations of this particular kind it has been the practice to continue in existence the enactments giving these exemptions. The result has been to detract from the advantage of consolidating the rate. We have estimated the percentage actually paid by the bodies in question for a period of five years. We have taken that amount as a percentage of what they would have paid if they paid the full rates, so that we may get rid of the old enactments and the old different rates. We propose that they will be assessed at a flat municipal rate according to the percentages that are given there.

The position with regard to land is somewhat different. There has been no exemption in regard to land in some of the urban districts, but we propose that there will be exemption of one-half of the rate on land generally. The Bill proposes that the fact of amalgamation and the fact of a transfer of officers from a body to its successor shall not be taken as a cause for going out on pension. It makes adequate provision for the pensioning of redundant officers, and it gives a year for clearing up the situation in regard to officers. It may be necessary to extend that period. As I stated before, the Bill provides that the workmen in the new city and the new borough will have extended to them the advantage of pension, sick leave, and other privileges which the present Dublin Corporation staff of workmen have. In so far as by-laws exist in these areas they will continue to exist until they are either extended or revoked by the bodies which succeed the present bodies. Generally both as regards the extension of the area suggested here, as regards the money and as regards the franchise, we are putting forward proposals to the Oireachtas that we consider are the best proposals that can be put up for the satisfactory carrying on of the local government of the City and County of Dublin.

I move:—

To delete all words after the word "that" and to substitute the words: "the Dáil declines to give a Second Reading to a measure dealing with the local government of the City and County of Dublin which fails to establish a local authority of any kind for dealing with matters common to the metropolitan area as a whole, which deprives citizens of effective control over the administration of their municipal affairs, and which introduces the undemocratic precedent of conferring special franchise rights and privileges based on the possession of property."

As stated by the Minister, the Bill before us makes provision for the local government of Dublin City and County, and to a certain extent, therefore, it might be considered as being of comparatively small importance to Deputies who do not represent a constituency within the city or county concerned. There are special reasons, however, why this measure should have more than local interest for every Deputy in the House. Not alone the citizens of Dublin, but the people of the whole State are concerned, and should be concerned, and take a deep interest in their metropolitan city. Anything that tends to make or mar the city should have an interest for all the citizens of the State. The elected representatives of the city will, no doubt, have special responsibilities thrust upon them in connection with the Bill, but it is the duty of every Deputy to take a special interest in the progress of the measure and to look at it, not alone from the narrow, local municipal point of view, but from the point of view of the country as a whole. It is possible, perhaps, that those of us who do not represent any constituency in the city or county are in a position to take a more detached view of the measure than Dublin Deputies and have more regard to its broader aspects and the general principles embodied in the Bill. So far as the amendment which I have moved is concerned, I have not considered the Bill from the purely Dublin standpoint.

I am asking the Dáil to reject the motion for the Second Reading on the three main grounds which I have stated in the amendment, which were referred to by the Minister in the course of his speech, and which I shall briefly cite as follows. There is the failure to entrust the management of the affairs which are common to the metropolitan area to one governing body. Thus we have a representative council set up under the Bill which has no effective control, and which I hope to show will have no effective control over urban or municipal affairs. The third reason is because of the revival of the archaic and long-discarded principle of conferring special franchise rights on property holders. The first objection which the Minister felt would be raised to this Bill was that it brought in Rathmines and Pembroke. So far as I am concerned, I am not making that objection. I support as strongly as I can the proposal to include in the Bill Rathmines and Pembroke. My opposition is of an entirely different kind. It is first in regard to the areas concerned. It is because in addition to Rathmines and Pembroke, other areas which, in my opinion, should be included are not included that I ask the House to reject the measure.

We have had from time to time, in regard to all cities, measures extending and enlarging the original boundaries and making provision to meet various stages of growth of the city. In some cases, and it was the case in years gone by, extensions were made with great hesitation and only in a small way. The Minister gave us an interesting outline of the efforts that had been made so far back as 50 or 60 years ago to extend the City of Dublin. Many old traditions, many vested interests, stood in the way of doing things in a big way and on a large scale. Of late years different ideas are held in regard to the necessity for planning extensions to the city on a large and extensive scale. I am sorry to say that in this respect our Government here, which one would expect would not be tied down by these old traditions or hampered by them in any way, seem to be following in the tracks of their predecessors and, instead of looking at the problem in a big way as one would expect they should have done, they are nibbling at the problem. They are engaged in a process of nibbling just as one would expect to find a body doing 30, 40 or 50 years ago.

We have had the question of Greater Dublin agitating the minds of the citizens and the people of the country generally, as the Minister pointed out, for a period of something like 50 or 60 years. All of us felt that the problem could only be satisfactorily and adequately dealt with by a home Government. All of us had hoped that the home Government would not be tied by the traditions which affected previous Governments but I am afraid that all of us are sadly disappointed with this first effort on behalf of our native Government to deal with this age-long problem. The Minister told us what happened 30 years ago, perhaps it is longer than 30 years ago. In the opening portion of his speech the Minister gave us a history of the attempt to include Rathmines, Rathgar and Pembroke in the city area. The citizens of Dublin 30 years ago were anxious to include Rathmines and Pembroke within the city. Every argument used then, and which has been recited by the Minister in the course of his speech, is an argument to-day in favour of the inclusion of the areas left out, by the Minister, in this Bill.

As I say we know what happened in the case of Rathmines and Pembroke. We had a Unionist Government in power in Westminster and we had Unionist Councils in power in Rathmines and Pembroke. The combination of politics and vested interests was too strong for the Nationalist Corporation at the time, so Rathmines and Pembroke were left out. We had had for over thirty years the anomaly of these two areas, which were really within the city, part of the city, but not part of the city for the purposes of local government. When steps are being taken now to end that anomaly and to bring these two areas within the city, the Government in effect creates a greater anomaly by leaving out areas that are naturally part of the city, obviously ought to be part of the city, and are there because Dublin is there. If the Minister proposed merely to leave them out and to wait until perhaps a greater realisation of the necessity for bringing them in should come to those in authority, until circumstances were such that they would be brought in as a matter of course, it would be bad enough, but instead of that they are going further. First, they are consolidating those outside areas, enlarging their powers, creating new vested interests and making, in so far as they can make, extremely difficult their future absorption by the growing city.

Thirty years ago, when the British Government refused to include Rathmines and Pembroke, if they had not alone left them as they were, but if they had proceeded to consolidate them and to create new vested interests, if they had given them new and additional powers to what they had already, and set up a Mayor and a Corporation there, if all that had been done, surely it would have been more difficult to-day to have these areas absorbed within the city? Yet that is what the Minister proposed to do in this measure. Blackrock, Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire are townships and are there because Dublin is here. They are part and parcel of Dublin just as much as Rathmines and Pembroke are part and parcel of Dublin. If there were no Dublin, would the Minister say, or would anybody say, or believe that we would have townships of the nature and kind that we have along our coast? Would these townships not be just small coastal seaside towns like Laytown, Courtown, or Skerries, and places like that? They are there because the city is there, and they are as much part and parcel of the city as Drumcondra and Clontarf are. Drumcondra and Clontarf were taken into the city. Already these townships have municipal services in common. The direction and the whole tendency will be for these services to grow. The tendency is for the consolidation of these services. Take, for instance, a service like the Fire Brigade. You are proposing to have a duplication of these services. One united body would be in a better position to provide the kind of machinery that would be necessary, say, for fire appliances than to have two separate bodies. Many instances of that kind could be quoted. These areas are really part and parcel of the City of Dublin. They had for many services in the old times, like the police, always been regarded as part of Dublin. They are now to be divorced from Dublin and set up as an independent and, I might say, a rival authority to the City of Dublin. Every argument for the inclusion of Rathmines and Pembroke in the city of Dublin is an argument for the inclusion of the coastal borough in the city area. We have heard about the men who have made their money in the city, and then went out to live in Rathmines, and then did not bear their proper share of the burden of the rates in the city out of which they made their living. Now, they go, and they will go more in the future to live in Monkstown, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire——

Or Greystones.

Do you want to bring that in too?

Mr. O'Connell

Exactly the same thing is happening now. These areas that I have mentioned have been brought nearer to the city as a result of motors and motor buses. I suppose that in the days before the motors came into use, it could be argued that Rathmines and Pembroke were quite a considerable distance from the city. They were as far from the city then, speaking in terms of the time in which it would take to reach the city from their residence, as Howth, Stillorgan and Killiney are now.

The Minister talked of the Greater Dublin Commission. The Greater Dublin Commission went into this matter at very great length. They examined expert witnesses, and they gave the matter very serious consideration. They considered that arrangements could be come to— as a matter of fact, they made representations to the effect that the area included in the townships should be included for local government affairs in one authority, with one great council to have control of the whole area, with local arrangements for local autonomy for the various areas within that. Now, the Minister says that is not practicable, but that is only a matter of opinion on the part of the Minister. I think he will find that evidence was given by people who were expert in municipal affairs that it was a practical proposition.

The Minister has put forward arguments as a result of consideration by himself and his Department showing why the report of the Commission could not be accepted in this regard. In my opinion those arguments will not bear serious examination. We hear a lot in this country of the evils of partition and the waste and the extravagance of setting up two governments within a country that could very easily be governed by one authority. Here we find ourselves duplicating services and setting up two independent governments, creating vested interests which will be extremely difficult to deal with later on, if and when a demand is made for the absorption of the coastal borough in the City Council. We have certain clumsy attempts in the measure to provide for co-operation between the borough and the city in matters of common interest. The framers of the Bill, apparently, recognised the necessity for such co-operation, but I suggest that that could be had more simply and at very much less cost to the citizens as a whole if there were one authority governing the whole area. I think no adequate case has been made by the Minister for rejecting the recommendations of the Greater Dublin Commission and for setting up an independent coastal borough, a new authority within the City of Dublin, for it is impossible to hold that these townships are not in effect part and parcel of the city, and are there because Dublin is there.

In addition to the coastal borough areas there are other areas rapidly becoming part of the city. The Minister talked of the slowness of the urbanisation of certain areas, but surely he must know the reason of that. It is due to the difficulties placed in the way of local authorities by property owners. We know what is happening along the main outlets from the city. Houses are erected on one side of the road, while no building whatsoever takes place on the other side of the road. That is due to the difficulties which are placed in the way of local authorities or private builders by the owners of property who will not allow them to build. We have instances of that. The Minister talked of town-planning. Planning for the growth of a city is surely necessary The Minister also talks of a joint authority, but I suggest that we should look ahead and that the Greater Dublin Council would be a far more effective body than any joint authority such as the Minister suggests, for the purpose of planning the lines along which development should proceed. What happens is, that we are late in making our plans; we find when we proceed to make our plans that something has already happened. Haphazard buildings and development goes on without any real thought for coordination in a growing city. That has repeatedly happened, and developments which we would like to see taking place on the outskirts of the city are hampered because of some haphazard attempt at development made without system, and often without very much thought as to what is going to happen in the future.

There are various areas where building is taking place at present outside the city and the coastal borough. For instance, the Mount Merrion Estate, which is at present being developed, will be neither in the city nor in the coastal borough. The result of all this will be that a new generation will be faced with the same class of problem as we ourselves are faced with to-day in regard to the development of the city. A good deal has been said, though the Minister did not dwell much upon it, about the inadvisability of including agricultural land within the city area. Surely an adjustment could be made. It would not be beyond the power of the legislature to devise some suitable and equitable adjustment in regard to agricultural land, so that it might be included within the city area. It would be easier to do that than to allow the kind of thing that is going on. It certainly would be well if land which is required for development would be within the control of the city authority. I believe that sooner or later a demand, an irresistible demand, will be made by the citizens for the inclusion of all these areas which are now being left out by the Minister. I believe the same kind of demand will be made as has been made for years for the inclusion of Rathmines and Pembroke, and I believe the right thing to do is to make a really Greater Dublin now, a Dublin that the whole country and everyone who calls himself an Irishman can be proud of.

The first and principal objection to this Bill is because of the area which it proposes to exclude. I should say, having regard to the report of the Greater Dublin Commission, because it does not include areas that in my opinion ought to be included, and especially because not alone does it not include them, but it sets up a new borough with new and extended powers by way almost of rival to the city.

On the second part of the question —the managership and the system of managerial control—it is a new system of development in local government. It was tried in Cork by way of experiment, and I shall leave it to Deputy Anthony to tell us of the success of that particular experiment in Cork. It will be sufficient for me to say that, so far as I can discover, the system has not proved the success that the Minister expected it would. He asked me, in the course of his speech, whether I wanted a City Manager. I am not against the idea of having a City Manager, if a City Manager is to be a chief Executive Officer, as the Minister seemed to indicate in his speech that he would be, but to my mind, listening to the Minister, there was a great deal of difference between his speech and what is in the Bill with regard to the powers and functions of the City Manager. If the City Manager is to be an Executive Officer, then I am in favour of the City Manager. If he is to be, as he appears to me to be, given powers which he can exercise absolutely independent of the council, and if they are to be given to him to the extent that powers are given to him in the Bill, then I am against a City Manager, because in my opinion it is taking from the citizen and the council effective control of their affairs. I have failed to find—perhaps the Minister would point it out to me—where the City Manager is subject to the council, or what measure of control they can exercise over him except in the striking of the rates. It seems to me the only control the council can exercise over the Manager is to refuse to strike the rates.

We are anxious to get down to hard facts. Perhaps the Deputy would indicate some of the powers the Manager could exercise as against the City Council.

Mr. O'Connell

No, I am rather anxious to know what powers the City Council can exercise as against such Manager. That is what I want to know. The Manager has complete control of the staff from the Town Clerk down to the smallest office boy.

Does the Deputy object to that?

Mr. O'Connell

No. But if the City Council wants a certain thing to be carried out the Manager could refuse to carry it out.

Will the Deputy say what?

Mr. O'Connell

I am stating the general position. That is the reading I take out of the Bill, that all these reserved functions are extremely limited. The distinction between what is policy and what is purely administrative matter does not appear to be very clearly defined. I think the question that came up in Cork was a question whether three-roomed, four-roomed, or five-roomed houses should be built. Suppose it was that. Who has the right to decide?

Of course, the council.

Mr. O'Connell

Well, perhaps we will hear more about that.

If the Deputy will allow me to interrupt him for a moment. We would like to hear more about that from the Deputy.

Mr. O'Connell

I think it is the Minister's duty to say what control the council has over the Manager. Have they any? Unless I am sure that they have I am not going to support that system, because I believe that the council as representatives of the people ought to have the supreme control. That is what I am standing for. If they have not they are merely a simulacrum of a council, and I would prefer to see the Government going out wholesale for a dictator. Then we would know where we were.

The Minister's men.

In our interest or the Deputy's interest?

Mr. O'Connell

In the interests perhaps of truth and honesty in any case, because then we would know exactly where we were. To elect a council and pretend that they have certain powers and then to limit their powers to the extent that they are limited in this Bill, and to give the Manager the power that he is given in this Bill is not in my opinion in accordance with the principles of representative government, and because of that I am opposed to it. We will hear about Cork later and we will have the advantage of hearing how the matter works out there.

It has caused a revolt, even in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party in Cork.

Mr. O'Connell

That would be one of the reasons I would vote for it. Now I come to the third, and I think the most indefensible point of the whole lot, although the Minister did make an attempt to defend it. It is a revival of an old discarded system, and I say "revival" advisedly. Many of us will remember the system that existed pre-1898. Some of us were not very much interested in local government at that time, but we remember the local landlord who had eight or nine votes. Perhaps the President does not remember that time. At every election for a board of guardians in 1895-96 the local landlord had as many as eight or nine votes, I think. All that was done away with. He had all those votes because he had a big valuation and because he owned property, but that was done away with. Why was it done away with? Was it a wrong principle? But that principle is to be revived now by the President and his Ministers. The same idea as running through the Minister's speech was advocated by those who opposed electoral reform in 1832 and for years afterwards. What right had any man without property to have a vote? What right had the ordinary labourer or workman to have a vote at all. What did he know about it? Do we or do we not want business men on our councils, asked the Minister. We do, but we must bribe them to come in. Is that the position? Will these business men who serve their country so well refuse to carry out ordinary civic duties that all of us are supposed to carry out unless they get a special privilege and are placed in a privileged position? That is the case the Minister makes. If that is revived there is no knowing where it is going to stop. I am sure the Minister could argue equally in favour of giving six votes to Deputy Good and one vote to Deputy Davin in a matter concerning income tax for instance. If we take the rate of income tax fixed on the people of this country Deputy Good, I am sure, pays six times the income tax that Deputy Davin pays.

But the basis of voting is entirely different under local government.

Mr. O'Connell

Why is it? But on that principle why begin at £50? Why should a man with £50 valuation have only one vote when a man with £20 valuation has one vote? Why stop at even £250. Why, if there are six votes for a man with £250, should not a man with £1,000 valuation have twelve votes?

We are open to discussion.

Mr. O'Connell

Of course, the principle is wrong. What is behind the principle: one man, one vote? It is a question of human rights against property rights. If the principle is good and sound in the City of Dublin, it should be good and sound in the coastal borough.

It should be put out altogether.

Mr. O'Connell

I believe that is the Minister's own view as expressed to a deputation of the Chamber of Commerce. I have an extract here from a report of the Council of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. We know, of course, what is the origin of this revived proposal. The report of the Chamber of Commerce contains an account of an interview with the Minister for Local Government on the 15th April, 1929. Deputy Good and Senator Nugent were members of the deputation from the Chamber of Commerce, and here is an extract from the report:—

"The deputation based the claim for votes for companies on the ground that all business concerns as ratepayers should be given a voice in the election of the representatives who control the expenditure to which they contribute. In reply, the Minister stated that he would give careful consideration to the case put forward by the deputation. But, in his opinion, if companies were to receive votes the privilege should not be restricted to the area to be dealt with by the Greater Dublin Bill."

That was the opinion of the Minister, but evidently he believes in getting in the thin end of the wedge, and does not extend it to the whole of the area dealt with in this Bill. Are there any business men in Dun Laoghaire, Monkstown and Blackrock? I think that principle cannot be defended; it is a vicious principle. It is a very poor compliment indeed that the Minister has paid to the business men here this evening, when he says that unless they are elected on a special franchise and given special privileges and rights they are not going to do what are the ordinary duties of every citizen—to take part in the civic management and control and government of their city.

Why should business men have such special privileges? Are there not other classes of the community who might claim special privileges? Professional men, solicitors, doctors, and professors must face the ordinary electorate and get the ordinary vote of the working man who lives down in a poor street. They must hold their election meetings there if they want to become members of the council. But the business man, the pillar of the State, must not be offended in any way; he need not in any way consult meetings. He can get elected as the representatives on the Port and Docks Board get elected. He can send round circulars to his business colleagues, and they need not even go to the trouble of going to the polling booths to mark their papers. They can mark them in the privacy of their offices and send them in to be recorded for their special representatives.

These are the three main objections that induced me to put down this amendment. I do not wish at this stage to go into details with regard to every section, but I have given these three principal objections to the Bill. I express regret that the Minister, when he was introducing new principles, did not introduce principles that many of us would be glad to see introduced in making a new departure with regard to local government. We know that the whole principle in regard to local government here is that the local authority can only do the things that are laid down for it to do. In other countries there is the opposite idea— that except the things which are specially forbidden them to do, they can do anything in regard to local government or local control.

Improve the machinery first and you can then extend in that direction.

Mr. O'Connell

I am sorry the Minister did not make a better attempt at improving the machinery than he has shown in the Cork Act or in this Bill. There are some other sections in the Bill that I would like to speak about, but at this stage I shall confine myself to what I said were the main objections to the Bill. In regard to the latter one especially, I believe the measure is entirely reactionary and is opposed to principles that have been won after long agitation. I believe that if a principle of that kind were in force in 1916 we would not have had the advantage of the President in the Dublin Corporation.

You would not have the Treaty either.

Mr. O'Connell

I was saying that if this system of voting and this new franchise that is now being introduced was in existence then, it is possible we should not have had the advantage of having the President elected to the Dublin Corporation.

That is the only thing you said in favour of the Bill.

Twenty-one persons.

Mr. O'Connell

I doubt if the President would be one of the twenty-one.

If the Deputy knew the circumstances he would not say that.

Mr. O'Connell

I shall ask the House to reject this measure, not to give it a Second Reading and so let the Government and the members of the Executive Council see that we are really anxious for a greater Dublin but a Dublin that belongs to Ireland. Dublin belongs to Ireland. We all take a special interest in the City of Dublin and we feel that the principles which are sought to be introduced in this Bill are principles which the House ought not to approve of.

I would like to know what exactly is the position now with regard to the motion and the amendment?

Both the Bill and the amendment are before the House and open for discussion. The Minister will conclude the debate generally and the question to be put is "that the words proposed to be deleted stand."

We oppose this Bill almost wholly for the same reasons so far as reasons have been given as the Leader of the Labour Party. We object to the area that is proposed in the Bill. We object because areas that we think ought to be included have not been included. We are dissatisfied with the boundaries. We dislike intensely what Deputy O'Connell referred to as partition. Partition has entered so deeply into the souls of the Ministers and they are so fond of it that they are not satisfied with partition of the Thirty-two Counties; they want to extend it to the City of Dublin. We object strenuously to the amputation of what we regard as an important area in what we think, at any rate, is the capital of Ireland. The proposal to establish a coastal borough as a separate entity will be strenuously opposed by us. We see no good reason for the adoption of that principle. We object, as Deputy O'Connell objects, to the autocratic powers of the Manager. We object to the powers being robbed from the City Council however it may be constituted. We object to the commercial register. We object to the insufficiency of representation. We oppose the Second Reading for a variety of other reasons, particularly because of the powers that we think ought to be given to the Council under the Bill and which have not been given.

Deputy O'Connell referred to the failure to make provision of some kind for town planning. Another matter, that has not so far been referred to and that we look upon as of great importance, is the failure to deal with the antiquated franchise of the Port and Docks Board and the failure to give power to the Corporation to deal with derelict sites. These, amongst others, are important omissions. We believe that when the subject is being dealt with at all important matters of that kind ought to have been brought within the scope of the Bill. The Minister told us a little about the history of the Bill. It was suggested to me that we should set out our main objections in the way of amendment as Deputy O'Connell did. I felt after I read the Bill over and studied it a few times that that would be useless and that the better thing to do was to go straight for the whole Bill because the weight of advantages as against disadvantages was with the latter. The Bill to my mind is a rotten one. I think no better adjective could describe it. It is a rotten Bill and worthy of the people—the reactionaries as they have grown in the last ten years— who introduced it (hear, hear). I am glad you agree.

The Deputy does not believe that.

The Greater Dublin Commission was appointed on July 4th, 1924. This is February, 1930. The Final Report was dated February 29th, 1926, and the Bill was published on 11th February, 1930. For two years the Commission sat investigating the condition so far as local government is concerned of the City of Dublin and its environs. In that two years the Commission heard a great deal of evidence, and had before it people of all classes of society, experts in almost every branch of knowledge, at any rate, in so far as they could be connected with local government. I took pains during the Recess to go through the evidence. There are several large volumes of evidence in the Library. I certainly got a considerable amount of instruction from them. It was valuable evidence, and those who wrote out their precis of evidence and afterwards appeared before the Commission to be examined and cross-examined went to a great deal of trouble and expense, and provided most valuable information for everybody who wished to avail of it.

For that we ought to be grateful to those concerned. We ought to be grateful to the members of the Commission. It is remarkable that the Minister had not a word of thanks to offer to the members of the Commission who sat for two years examining into this question and bringing to bear on it long years of experience and expert knowledge. I certainly feel that a tribute of gratitude is due to the members of that Commission and to all the witnesses who came before it, and in one way or another, some to a great extent, and others to a less extent, added to the sum of our knowledge with regard to local government. They deserve our thanks as citizens for duty done to this city. That tribute of thanks would come naturally, better from the Minister than from me, but as he has omitted it, somebody ought to do it. I would like to say this, that there was no one of these members of the Commission, as far as I know, of my way of thinking politically; most of them are the Minister's way of thinking, and that is all the thanks he shows them for their efforts. The Chairman of the Commission, judging by the evidence and by the report, gave a lot of time, study and thought to that work. He and his colleagues showed a civic spirit that seemed to be dead or at any rate moribund in this city for a long time, and the cause of which some of us may be able to describe. At any rate, for the civic spirit they displayed, both the members of the Commission and those who gave evidence before it, deserve our thanks.

The Commission that gave us this report set out over 90 recommendations of one kind or another dealing with every branch of local government, so far as it refers to that area. I do not know whether the Minister for Local Government would call himself an expert on that subject or not, but the man who is probably his chief adviser, President Cosgrave, I am sure would call himself an expert. As I said, they had this Commission sitting for two years. They selected their own people, they carefully selected some people with expert knowledge and long experience. These people made 95 recommendations. What did the Government do with the recommendations? I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that they tore them in pieces and flung them in the faces of the Commission. That is the gratitude they have shown to the Commission for their two years' work, their long report and their 95 recommendations. Of the 95 recommendations they have adopted four, so far as I can gather, in comparing the Bill and the recommendations of the Commission. Some might increase the number, but my estimate is four recommendations of that report, arrived at after years of hard work and the best knowledge that was available from technicians, engineers, officials, and lawyers. Every branch of knowledge that would affect local government was at the disposal of the Commission, and officials whom President Cosgrave holds in the highest regard gave expert advice. I have two particular officials in mind whom the President has gone out of his way to honour. I do not think it would be proper to mention their names. These two officials gave very valuable evidence, though I would not agree with it. The President has honoured these men by promotion and otherwise; yet he tore up their evidence in the same way as he tore up the report of the Commission as a whole. And he thinks they are fit and proper people to direct some of the most important affairs of the land, industrially and administratively, but he does not think their advice worth putting into practice when he gets it.

We object to the boundaries set out in that report. The Minister told us a little of the history of the efforts of the Dublin Corporation to enlarge its boundaries in the last half century or so. I am old enough to remember the Boundary Commission of 1900, though I was not in public life till three years or so later. I do not remember the one that goes back to 1878 or 1879. That was some years before I was born. I have taken an interest in these matters for a good many years. President Cosgrave has too. We both entered municipal politics about the same time. We do know that the Dublin Corporation and Dublin citizens in general were anxious, for good reasons, we believe, to have the city boundaries extended, especially in the direction of Rathmines and Pembroke, and, as was brought out here this evening, it was the Unionist Government of the day in England, particularly the House of Lords, that defeated the efforts of the Municipal Council of Dublin. It occurs to me in connection with the promotion of a Bill of that kind in the British House of Commons that it was in that connection Sinn Fein first became known as an organisation in municipal politics, because President Cosgrave, myself, and a few others started out to defeat the efforts of the Municipal Council in getting authority to go to London. We succeeded eventually for good or ill, and now they have to come here. I would rather they would have to go to a council that would be representative of all Ireland, but President Cosgrave had his way. However, this is a digression. It was one of the beginnings of Sinn Féin in municipal and international politics.

The Minister told us that Rathmines and Pembroke succeeded in their efforts in opposition to the Bill, and that they were not brought in. The arguments that were used in '78 and '79, and again in 1900, with regard to the bringing of Rathmines and Pembroke within the ambit of the city proper, are as sound to-day as they were 30 or 40 years ago. There is no change except that time has made these arguments all the more valuable, and has brought out to a greater extent the truth of the arguments that were used 30 or 50 years ago. I would like to say further, that similar arguments for the spread of urbanisation around the old City of Dublin that were used 50 or 30 years ago in favour of the bringing in of Rathmines and Pembroke into the city, can be advanced with regard to the areas that the Minister now proposes to include in the southern coastal borough, and many areas in the northern borough, contiguous to the city. All means of transport in the last 30 years have developed at a remarkably rapid rate, and they are, if not solely, to a great extent responsible for the tremendous changes in municipal life and in the ordinary life of our people. We have to take note of these facts and realise the great change that has taken place in the manner of living of our people, and in the transport arrangements. It is quite proper to use the arguments that were used with regard to Rathmines and Pembroke 30 years ago as to why they should be included in the city, in reference to Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire to-day. The same arguments apply. We look upon the setting up of the coastal borough as an independent body as just as great a blunder, municipally speaking, as the keeping of Rathmines and Pembroke with their boundaries outside the old City of Dublin.

One argument used with regard to Rathmines and Pembroke was that there was no natural boundary there. The same thing applies with regard to the coastal borough to-day. Anyone starting from here, by road or train, and going to Dalkey will see one city without a boundary of any kind. There is nothing to mark a boundary between the old city and Dun Laoghaire, between it or Blackrock or Dalkey. It is all one continuous city, and we believe it should be part and parcel of the city which is the capital of Ireland. We think, and I personally agree with Deputy O'Connell, that this matter has been viewed with eyes that have no vision. They have not the courage to envisage the growth of Dublin or the growth even of their own amputated part of Ireland. They ought to drop the old notion of those who, in the British Parliament, could not see fit to include Rathmines with Pembroke, and look on this problem with the eyes of a progressive citizen, of one who has faith and believes in the future of the capital city of our country. To my mind, the arrangement that is proposed is democratically and nationally grotesque. For what purpose the boundaries suggested have been adopted, I do not know. To my mind they bear a very close resemblance to the gerrymandering of President Cosgrave's Orange friends in the North last year.

In reference to the coastal borough, what I think can be called the Solomon's judgment that they propose to put into operation displays a cynical indifference and culpable ignorance of municipal affairs. I agree with Deputy O'Connell when he says that it is reactionary. It is certainly that, and to my mind is opposed to the teaching of civic experience so far as I know. What I have said with regard to the proposed southern boundary of the city applies, in great measure, to the northern boundaries also. The old boundaries of 30 years ago are to be preserved with slight modifications so far as the northern boundary is concerned. Why such a place as Artane or Raheny should not be in the City of Dublin is more than I can explain.

The second reason that we object to giving a Second Reading to this Bill is because of the autocratic powers that it proposes to give to the managers in the enlarged city and in the southern coastal borough. The Bill, instead of setting out the powers that the manager would have, which to my mind would be the natural way of doing it, sets out the very restricted powers that the council will have, all the rest going to the manager. One of a number of powers which the Corporation and the borough council will have will be that of being able to confer the freedom of the city. That, I think, is a fair sample of the type of powers that are to be given to the elected council. Of course, they will have power over the striking of the rates, but they are not to have a word to say as to the spending of that money when it is raised.

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

They can raise the money, but not spend it. They can raise the money and hand it over to the manager, who will then advise them, but they cannot even advise the manager. There are several sections in the Bill setting out how the manager is to advise the council, but there is no arrangement for the council to advise the manager. They can amend by-laws on the instruction of the manager; they can make an order, when instructed by the manager, putting his decisions into operation. But any effective power that they are to have can only be exercised when the manager directs them so to do. The manager is to advise the elected body, but the elected body is not to advise him. Autocrats do not accept advice. Therefore there is no arrangement for the council to advise the manager.

One would imagine that one of the powers that would be given to men in a responsible body, men elected by an important municipality like Dublin to run its affairs, would be the right to select their own manager. I do not know whether we have any trusts or big combines in this city. I know that we have factories that are branches of combines, but I do not know that we have anything bigger in that way than the railways. Would anybody suggest to me that the directors of the railway system in Ireland should not have the right to elect their own general manager? In this Bill the body into whose hands the citizens are to entrust the running and working of their city are told in advance that they are so bereft of honesty, intelligence and integrity that they are not to be allowed to elect the chief official of their organisation, but that some hand-picked body behind closed doors is to select the manager. We can easily guess the type of man that will be selected and the qualifications that will be looked for. The hand-picked body behind closed doors will select the manager.

I wonder where they are going to get this super-man? He will probably be somebody who has served well in the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal. That would be the chief qualification, as it was the chief qualification of Deputy Doctor O'Higgins when made county medical officer of health down in the County Meath a couple of months ago—no special qualification, although we were told that particular office required super-excellent qualifications. When it came to putting that in practice we have one example of how it was done. We will have another when it comes to the appointment of Manager for Greater Dublin. Fear of the people is evidenced in almost every line of this Bill, at least in any line that the people might have any say in. That is from people who are always mouthing about the will of the people, how they want the will of the people in evidence everywhere. But they never get an opportunity of this kind that they do not take good care that the people will have as little power as they can give them.

When the manager is to be appointed the body who will appoint him will not be his colleagues in the municipal council. They will have nothing to say to it. They will shut their eyes and open their mouths and see what Cumann na nGaedheal will send them. I was interested in looking over the evidence to find that one gentleman—I think within the last couple of years he was chairman of the Chamber of Commerce in Dublin—was asked by one of the members of the Commission what his view was as to giving the right of selecting their own manager to that elected body, and the gentleman, Mr. J.C.M. Eason, answered, speaking for the Dublin Chamber of Commerce: "I cannot see how you could remove from the administrative body which will have control over the executive the power of choice in managers." Again he said: "I favour giving absolute freedom of selection." Even the Chamber of Commerce is more progressive and has a little more trust in the citizens of Dublin than this reactionary body known as the Free State Executive Council. Then if it comes to removing this superman, this manager, unless the Council pass a resolution by a two-thirds majority they cannot call for his removal, and even if they be unanimous they must submit to the will of the Minister. He is the person who will say whether that manager shall be dismissed or not. Constitutional history tells us that even the King of England can be removed off his throne by a majority in the British House of Commons, but the future king of Dublin cannot be removed, even if the elected representatives are unanimous.

Another objection we have in common with Deputy O'Connell to this Bill is the commercial franchise, so called. Again, here we have evidence of the fear of the common people by those who have for seven or eight years, as I have already said, been mouthing from one hundred platforms all over the country how they love and trust the people, and only want the will of the people to be put into execution. Here we have another evidence of their profound trust in the will of the common people, the common people that brought all of us who have any right to be in an elected assembly, this or any other, into our positions as Deputies or Councillors. The common people, who first elected President Cosgrave, are not good enough to elect the council. You see, we have got up in the aristocracy of councils. We have moved up the ladder on the necks of the common people, President Cosgrave included, and when we get up we know how to treat the common people. This is a vicious effort to restore the old ascendancy on the necks of the Dublin citizens. It is a return to the autocracy that was fought for centuries in this and many other countries, and which was smashed more than a century ago. The Northern Government, so called, the Government of the Six Counties, I read somewhere recently, boasts of going step by step in legislation with the Parliament of England. I suppose this is the first movement in the step by step policy of President Cosgrave following on the footsteps of his friend, Lord Craigavon. They introduced something of this kind into their local government legislation a year or two ago.

The principle of giving a man votes according to the size of his bank account is bad, and is one that no democratic institution ought to stand over. This playing for the Unionist and Tory vote, that is what I call it, by President Cosgrave is due to a feeling that the common people are slipping away from him, and he is trying to tie as fast as he can the element he fought so long, and which he is now clasping to his bosom and hoping that they will clasp bim to theirs, in the expectation that he will be kept in power a little longer. In this section of the Bill the common people are insulted, and an effort is made to see that their representatives on the council will be impotent. In this connection I saw a few lines in the Labour paper, I do not know whether it is the official organ of the Labour Party or not, "The Irishman." Referring to this particular section it was stated in that paper: "Words fail us to comment on this reactionary measure. One can only wonder how much it will be worth in subscriptions from property owners to the election funds of Cumann na nGaedheal." Probably they had one eye on the poor electorate keeping them out, and another eye on the big bank balance of the commercial elements in the city when they were including this section in the Bill.

Another reason why we object to the Bill is because the proposal for a council of twenty-one members, outside the few aristocrats, is an inadequate representation. When we include in Dublin County Boroughs Rathmines, Pembroke, and Rathgar that means roughly a representation of one to every 19,000 of the population, and that to my mind is not an adequate representation in a popularly elected or democratic body. I realise there are difficulties in a matter of that kind. There was a difficulty because of the slow and inefficient working in the old days of the Dublin Corporation when we had 80 members for a much smaller area. These eighty members represented a population of 300,000. I do not want over-representation. I do not want such a crowded assembly as would make impossible proper working, but I do say, and my colleagues here agree with me, that twenty-one representatives for a population of 418,000, or almost 420,000, is insufficient and would not give the opportunity for getting adequate representation for all classes of the community. The Greater Dublin Commission in their report suggested that 54 members would be necessary to give adequate representation on the basis of population. That is on the 1911 Census. They said that the old City of Dublin should have 47 members, and the townships now proposed to be added. should have 10.

I think the Deputy will have to go back on that. The recommendation is 38 for the city. Page 8.

I would rather take Page 5.

Yes. Take Page 5.

That is the first error.

Midway down the page, paragraph 23——

Take the recommendation.

I am making my own case in my own way, and the President will have plenty of time to talk afterwards, when I will listen to him, as I always do.

Take the population alone.

I am speaking of population. In that paragraph they say——

If population were taken as the ground of calculation made on the basis of the 1911 Census the representation to be allocated would be —Dublin, 60 members; coastal borough, 5. (a) For Dublin City, that is the area at present administered by the Commissioners, 47 members; (b) for the area at present administered by the Rathmines and Rathgar and Pembroke Urban District Councils, 10 members.

That was not the recommendation.

I said "on a basis of population." There is another paragraph on another basis earlier in the report, and if the President were listening to me he would have heard me say that it was on the basis of population.

The Deputy does not want the recommendation to be brought out.

The omnipotent and omniscient President on municipal affairs is wrong for once. I am not a faddist on such questions as town-planning. I realise the difficulty in that matter, and I realise especially that money is a great difficulty in clearing away obstacles. If you want to plan a city properly, especially an old city like Dublin, you require to have ample money at your disposal. Here you have an old city with a modern exterior, with new areas and with others which, we hope will form, as John Redmond used to say, at no far distant date, a splendid capital of a great country called Ireland, and not merely of 26 Counties. Having that in view and looking a bit forward, I think that some arrangement ought to be made —call it town-planning or what you will—by which power ought to be given in the Bill to the principal municipal authority to plan and lay out such schemes for the future. Such plans, however, are not, so far as I can see, within the ambit of this Bill. Numerous people who take a keen interest in this matter, some of them distinguished citizens, gave evidence before the Commission as to the necessity of town-planning, and the Commission was seized with its importance, and included it among the recommendations in their report. It is nearly the hundredth recommendation which the President tore up and threw back at the Commission which he himself appointed.

I would like to see some powers given for regulating the future development of the city. I know that in our own time, in the last 25 years or so, the Municipal Council experienced great difficulty in widening streets and making new thoroughfares, and that great expense had to be incurred in connection with such work. To my own knowledge there were cases in which part of a street was widened so far back as 25 years ago, and in which houses in streets like George's Street and Aungier Street in the South, and Liffey Street in the North, were knocked down and others pushed back ten or twenty feet to improve the thoroughfares. Yet, owing to the absence of power to deal with the problem, that condition remains to-day. The Corporation has to wait until the lease falls in, and even then it often happens that because of enormous expense the widening of such thoroughfares cannot be continued. It is to avoid difficulties of that kind that I suggest that if you had people who were looking ahead in regard to such matters, they would have put some provision in the Bill giving power to the municipal authorities by which they could in a large way—I am not speaking or bye-streets and alleys—direct the channels in which the main traffic would go to and from the city, say, for 30 or 40 years to come.

I had a case brought to my notice only within the last fortnight in connection with one of the new thoroughfares in North Dublin, Griffith Avenue, a case in which that magnificent thoroughfare has been blocked by a landlord who erected four houses on a plot of land facing it. He apparently had the plot, the money and the power and he built four houses which practically blocked that magnificent thoroughfare. In order to prevent that sort of thing the Minister should have included provisions giving some extra powers to the municipal authorities in the Bill. Another matter that ought to have been dealt with in considering Dublin and in arranging for the restoration to the citizens of their municipal powers was the position of the Port and Docks Board in relation to the city. I am of opinion, and I think that a great many citizens agree with me, that the existence of the Port and Docks Board with its present powers and franchise is an anomaly. I do not object to those who have a very special interest in the port—such as shippers and commercial men who have special interests to guard— getting special representation, but I do object to them practically owning and controlling the port, which is the main artery, so far as the commercial life of the city is concerned, and, indeed, so far as the life-blood of the Twenty-six Counties is concerned. I do not think that a port of the importance of that of the capital city should be in such hands but should be run in the interests not alone of the city but of the country, and I think that the type of management and control that now exists in the Port and Docks Board is something which should have received consideration from the Minister. I wonder if we might again drag Cumann na nGaedheal into this matter, because the Chairman of the Port and Docks Board is also Chairman of Cumann na nGaedheal and that may be the reason that their powers are not being touched. Such things have happened.

No. It is because a tribunal is inquiring into them.

Such things have happened in the past and will happen again. These are my main objections to the Bill. There are others which we can go into later, as no doubt there will be plenty of talk when it comes to the Committee Stage and we are not going to waste it all to-night. There will be plenty of opportunity for Ministers to defend their Cumann na nGaedheal Bill.

Do not be too sure of that.

That is, of course, if the President remains here long enough, because the newspapers told us that he is going to the Viceregal Lodge. I wonder whether all the reactionary proposals which are to be found in this Bill have anything to say to his going to the Viceregal Lodge.

I come to another aspect of the matter with which it is pertinent to deal in discussing Dublin and the restoration of the powers which the President stole from the citizens in 1924. I come to the Commissioners. I know Ministers are anxious to take part in the debate. I know the Minister for Education is bursting with anxiety to speak. I will give him a chance in a few minutes. He has a whole deck of cards in front of him, dealing them out since the debate started. He will have plenty of time but he will not put all his cards on the table, you may be quite certain. I would like to know as one citizen, a very modest citizen, what the Commissioners have done during their term of office for Dublin?

Surely that is not relevant to this debate.

Why not, a Chinn Comhairle?

This is a Bill for the future government of Dublin.

This Bill proposes to terminate the period of office of the Commissioners, and surely it would be in order to urge in the debate that the term of office of the Commissioners should not be terminated.

We cannot have a debate on the past administration of the Commissioners.

When the Minister was introducing the Bill he went back almost to the Flood.

The one remark I heard the Minister use about that was that he was not there. This is a Bill to extend the area of the City of Dublin and to make certain provisions for the future government of the city. We cannot have on the Second Reading of a Bill of that kind, a debate on the past administration of the City Commissioners.

I am very sorry.

Mr. Boland

Can we have a debate on the old Corporation?

If Deputies desire that, they can consult with the Ceann Comhairle as to how it might be done, but it cannot be done in this particular fashion. I will hear Deputy O'Kelly on the point of order.

The Commissioners, I presume, will be—all of them may not be, as one of the super-men may be retained—restoring to the City of Dublin all that belongs to it. There will have to be an examination to see how accounts and moneys were dealt with, and of matters that have a very close connection with the finances of the city at the moment. One item that occurs to me is the debt of the city. That will hamper future development. Owing to the fact that the debt of Dublin has been increased by two millions practically in the last six years, the future development of the city will be hampered. Every aspect of the city life will be hampered in some way by reason of the fact that this debt has been incurred.

That is not relevant to the question as to how the city is to be governed. We are now discussing the principles of this Bill which would seem to be the principles upon which the City of Dublin, as it will be de-limited, will in the future be governed. To allow that type of legislative proposal to develop into a debate on administration by the Commissioners or by anybody else would appear to be impossible.

Mr. Boland

Has not that already been done?

I suggest that it is a matter that arises in connection with the appointment of a City Manager. One or other of the Commissioners may be appointed to one or other of the two managerships.

The Deputy is inviting me to base a ruling on a hypothesis put forward by himself. I could not do so.

Mr. Boland

Is it not in order, in making proposals for the future government of the city, to refer to the past government of the city? It would be practically impossible to discuss this Bill without referring to it.

We may possibly have an amendment to this Bill prohibiting the appointment of any of the City Commissioners to the position of manager. Certainly that amendment would be relevant to the section which prescribes that the City Manager shall be appointed by the Minister. The House might desire to limit the appointment or to exclude certain persons, and in order that we may be able to discuss these matters, I think that we should be allowed to discuss and criticise if necessary the conduct of the present Commissioners in relation to the affairs of the city.

If that arrangement holds good we could discuss anybody in the world who might be appointed City Manager, and whom we might wish to exclude from the position.

Mr. O'Connell

Is a Deputy free to discuss another system of government for the city besides the one proposed in the Bill, possibly government by Commissioners?

That is the point that I want to put. This Bill proposes to establish one form of government for the city. Another form of government is government by Commissioners. Surely a Deputy could argue against the form of government proposed in the Bill on the grounds that government by Commissioners is a better proposal?

Does the Deputy desire to do that?

Surely the fact that that argument could be advanced by a Deputy and that a Deputy can give examples from the history of the administration of the present Commissioners indicates that it should be in order to discuss the work of the Commissioners in a debate on Second Reading?

Are we not entitled to review the activities of the City Manager of Cork. Is that not quite in order, so that we may prevent the same catastrophe from happening in Dublin?

If Deputy Lemass kept out of his point of order the statement that he wanted to discuss the actions of the Commissioners over a number of years, it might have some validity, but a discussion cannot take place on the administration of the City Commissioners. The Deputy's argument for a system of Commissioners as against this particular system might be in order, but he is not at liberty to discuss the administration of the City Commissioners, which is a completely different topic.

What about Cork?

With regard to Cork I think there is a better case for discussing the City Manager system as it has worked in Cork, but I think in discussing that we would get ourselves involved as to the actual conduct by the Cork City Manager of municipal affairs in Cork. There is some relevancy in referring to the managerial system in Cork and as to how it has worked, but there is none in the case of the Commissioners.

Mr. Boland

You have not ruled out discussions in regard to the work of the old Corporation. The City Commissioners is a continuation of that Corporation, and surely it is relevant to deal with what has been already dealt with in the debate.

I did not hear anything in relation to the old Corporation discussed in the debate, and I would not be prepared to allow this debate to develop into a discussion either on the alleged sins of the old Corporation or the alleged sins of the Commissioners.

Or the virtues?

Or the virtues.

I am afraid that with that ruling I will have to curtail my speech considerably. We will have some chance of getting at it. I will not discuss the details with regard to their working, but I do contend that if this Bill be passed, taking into consideration the powers that are to be given to the manager, the autocrat who is to be called manager, the system will not be very different from the system that has been in operation in Dublin in the last six years. That has not been for the good of the city. I would like to warn the House against giving autocratic powers of that kind to any individual when I see what has happened when autocrats have been put in control. In this Bill it is proposed that a certain measure of control and at any rate publicity can be given, and I hope will be given, to the acts not alone of the council but of the manager as well. If that is not given we will have a repetition of the last six years, which has not made for a better Dublin. I do not want to discuss or attempt to discuss the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle. But I do maintain that the Dublin that will be restored to the new council, with its truncated powers, will be, financially speaking, hampered at every turn. Therefore it is all the more necessary that the council should have free choice in all matters, especially with regard to expenditure.

The debt of Dublin is now practically two million pounds more than it was six years ago, and in extending its boundaries and its services that fact must be taken into consideration. While the debt has gone up by two million pounds, and while the Government have showered money on the gentlemen who are in control, the gentlemen appointed by the Minister for Local Government or by his predecessor or, more strictly speaking, by President Cosgrave himself, these gentlemen have so used the autocratic power they have, as to make us feel the consequences if an autocrat of that kind will be in control of the city in the future. They have so used that power that the city is considerably in debt now as compared with six years ago, and yet in many things, and particularly in one aspect of municipal life, especially as far as Dublin is concerned, it is far and away worse off than it was when the control was taken from the Municipal Council by the Commissioners.

I do not want to be regarded as rude or offensive to these gentlemen personally, but I might call them marionettes appointed by President Cosgrave who run the City of Dublin. They are marionettes in so far as their every action was directed with an eye on the local government headquarters. That was bound to be so because they were temporary officials. I say with regard to one aspect of municipal life we are very much worse off altogether, even though we are in debt considerably more, and I emphasise this, because unless the powers of that manager are curtailed and greater power given to those who will have as a primary interest the interest of the poor and the working classes—unless power to look after the poor to a greater extent is given to the new council—we will have a worse condition even than the Medical Officer of Health described in his speech the other day in Dublin. He was speaking on the question of housing. The Medical Officer of Health, speaking last week at a meeting connected with the Orthopædic Hospital in Merrion Street, said: "Notwithstanding the houses that have been built in and around Dublin, it would be news to some of them that there were more unsanitary rooms and dwellings to-day than ever in the history of Dublin." That is the statement made by the responsible Officer for Health in Dublin, that there are more unsanitary rooms and dwellings to-day than there were ever in the history of Dublin. "There were kitchens occupied to-day that had been closed in Sir Charles Cameron's time." Sir Charles Cameron is probably ten or twelve years dead.

I think it is pertinent to this Bill to say that the system of autocracy has not done for Dublin all that ought to have been done for it, especially in the erection of houses in the last six years, and if that principle is to be extended, as proposed in this Bill, ten years hence we will have the same complaint to make in this House. Money, I will not say has been lavishly given, but a considerable amount of money in grants for houses was given in the last six years—half-a-million pounds, and another half million pounds in various other ways was given to Dublin. Despite that, compared with the old days of the Dublin Corporation, the way money was showered in the last six years and the use that has been made of it, at least the improvements that we can see in the city, is something that would not recommend the autocratic system to me.

Further than that I do not want to go into the history and administration of the Commissioners now. But as it is proposed in this Bill to restore even the truncated powers of the municipal council—to restore the municipal control to Dublin, I think I might say this much, especially in view of the fact that the evidence given at the Greater Dublin Commission very frequently showed that the citizens and some citizens of responsibility had an idea that in the past those in charge of the Municipal Council were a corrupt body. It occurred, I will not say at every sitting, but certainly it occurred very frequently in the sittings of the Greater Dublin Commission. There was some one or other citizen who, in the course of his cross-examination, did cast a reflection upon the old municipal council and talked of it as a corrupt, inefficient and improper body. It may have been inefficient in many ways, but I had fifteen years experience of it and I deny in toto the charge of corruption.

I would remind this House that there was a Commission set up in 1924 by President Cosgrave to examine into the question of administration and to hear charges that might be brought by any citizen against the Municipal Council. Not one solitary citizen came forward with a charge of corruption against that body. I think it is only fair that I should say that. There has been no opportunity to stand up to these charges, certainly to those that had been made at the sittings of the Greater Dublin Commission. I feel that it is only right, as one who for many years was a member of that body to say that I, at any rate, did not find that that body was a corrupt body. I know in the City of Dublin great and important bodies where nepotism is rampant. All of us know it. I certainly could not make that charge in the same wholesale way against the old Municipal Council of Dublin. These statements when they were made at the Greater Dublin Commission were frequently repeated and printed in the daily and weekly Press. It is unfair to ourselves as citizens, to the Municipal Council, and to our city that these unproved charges should be allowed to remain and to be continued. I do not wish to be taken as a defender of all the acts of that old body during the time that I had cognisance of it. I am not going into it very deeply now, but I want to say that I went into that Corporation with President Cosgrave. When we went in there first we were a small minority. We were a reform party in that body. We were attacking that body and criticising it with all the powers that we possessed. While we did criticise it. I doubt if President Cosgrave will disagree with me when I say that he could not lay his hands on even one instance of what could be accurately described as corruption in that body during the time that he was a member of it, and our periods of service there were co-equal.

The system there was not ideal, I admit. There were many changes and many amendments that could be made; but offering suggestions for amendment is one thing and allowing a body of that kind, its antiquity and its standing, to be crushed and blotted out of existence, and allowing charges of corruption to be made against it, is something that I, at any rate, was not prepared for from President Cosgrave. Within the last six years these charges have been constantly made and, with all respect, I say to the President that it was his duty as much as mine to have stood up to those who were making these charges—that is, if he believes as I believe that that body was not a corrupt body. It did not, perhaps, do its work as efficiently as it might; that could be argued; but inefficiency is one thing, even if that were proved, and corruption is quite another thing. I would never stand up here to defend inefficiency, but, having in mind my own membership for so many years, I certainly would not be fair or true to myself and to my own good name if I allowed that slur to remain unanswered.

The fact that President Cosgrave suppressed the municipal council by his own order was responsible at that time for reviving these charges of corruption and probably was responsible for all the references that were made before the Greater Dublin Commission to the corrupt and inefficient body and all the sins for which it was supposed to be responsible. I think the least he might do —and he has the opportunity now— is to defend his own honour as a member of that body. If it was corrupt he is as much responsible as any other individual member of it, and, in fact, he is more responsible because in later years he was the leader of the Dublin Corporation. He occupied that position in 1920. I was not there then. He was the leader and if it was a corrupt body he was the chief person who was corrupt in it. If I were there I know where he would be; he would be the small boy that he always was. That is where he would be. I was not there at the time. Later when he gets into power he suppresses the body of which he was a member for so long and allows charges to be made against it that were never proved. There was no attempt ever made to prove the charges of corruption made against that body. That is no credit to him, even if he is the President of the partitioned twenty-six counties of Ireland.

On a point of correction, I would like to point out that I did not abolish the Dublin Corporation nor did I appoint the Commissioners, as the Deputy knows.

You pulled the strings.

The Deputy is well aware of what I say.

I am not.

It was all done by the President's own deputy.

It was not done by my Government even, as the Deputy knows.

This Bill has been attacked from various sides, first because it introduces into the proposed new city too much territory, and then because it introduces too little territory. The mover of the amendment, Deputy O'Connell, dealt with what are the main principles of the Bill, and his speech in that sense was eminently a Second Reading speech. He dealt particularly with three points which are after all, the cardinal features of the Bill—the appointment and the duties of a City Manager, the extension of the city and the precise location of its boundaries, and thirdly, the adoption to a certain limited extent of a franchise that is not the ordinary franchise that at present prevails. There may be obscurities in the Bill. We were not aware there were these obscurities, but it is quite possible from a great deal of discussion that has taken place outside the House, and it is quite clear too from Deputy O'Connell's speech and the interchange of opinion that took place between himself and the Minister for Local Government, that it might be said there is an obscurity as to what the precise relations of the Manager and the City Council are. We are of the opinion that the matter is set forth clearly in the Bill, and it is not true to say that the City Manager is the master of the Council and that the Council is deprived of all practical power. I can well imagine that those who examine the Bill in a hostile manner, even some who might be quite friendly to the Bill but do not see it quite from the point of view of those who were responsible for the Bill, may say that the powers reserved to the Council are not sufficient. There may be some obscurity on that point.

Deputy O'Connell mentioned the question of housing. He thought it was advisable and healthy for the future government of the city that there should be a pretty clear definition of functions. I think duality of functions is the phrase referred to in the Commission's report. In determining in favour of that duality of functions it was certainly intended, and that is the purpose of the Bill, that matters of general policy should be with the Council and administration with the manager.

Deputy O'Connell mentioned the question of houses, and asked would the council have any voice in determining whether they would be three-roomed or four-roomed houses. So far as that is concerned, I think it would be a matter for the Council to determine that in a certain area so many houses are wanted of a certain specific type. After all, they have control of the purse. In drawing up their estimates, they have also control so far as borrowing is concerned. It is for them to put up to the manager and to discuss with the manager the type of house and vote the money for that particular type of house.

Will the Minister mention the section?

Section 49. If there is any obscurity in the matter, as there does seem to be, there is no reason why reasonable amendments which will define the relative powers of the manager and the council should not be put forward. I think the Minister in his speech made it quite clear that there was that duality of function. I think Deputy O'Connell acknowledged in his speech that it was clear there was that duality of function and that that was the purpose of the Bill. This undoubtedly is intended, as was the Cork Bill before it, as a very important reform in local government in this country. So far as the City of Dublin is concerned, it was the next step to the governing of the city by means of Commissioners purely as a temporary measure. In itself, we thought that the attempt to govern the city by Commissioners, though we regarded it as only a temporary measure, was a step forward. I think it was generally regarded, and is generally regarded, as such by the bulk of the people of Dublin. The experience of those interested in democratic forms of government, especially local government, in this country and practically every other country, is that during a long period it had to face a certain number of difficulties. Experience has brought them face to face with these difficulties.

A certain dissatisfaction undoubtedly exists with the ordinary type of city government that we have been mainly familiar with in this country. It is a system that we have inherited from a neighbouring country. There has been a growing sense of dissatisfaction with that particular type of government. It is not what Deputy O'Kelly spent a long portion of his curtailed speech in dealing with; it is not a question of corruption; that is not the question. It is not a question as to whether the people elected are morally fit to be there— whether they are corrupt or not. That is not what causes the dissatisfaction. Essentially that is not what gives rise to the problem. What gives rise to the problem is the growing complexity of the various kinds of business that local government has to deal with. That complexity is increasing every day. There are continual demands being made on all types of government — central government and local government— by way of new services on behalf of their respective communities. That is increasing, and must increase. A system of government that grew up so far as this country is concerned under entirely different circumstances, which had nothing democratic in its origin whatsoever, which was never meant to deal with the problems that local government has now to deal with, is still being asked in many cases to deal with problems altogether far beyond the problems dealt with formerly. Local government, as I say, has become more and more complex. It is impossible, especially in the case of the larger cities, for a system of government that was tolerable enough 80 years ago, and was able to carry on not merely the general policy, but also the administration, to be satisfactory to-day. You might as well expect this Dáil to carry on the administration of the country as well as deciding on the question of the general policy. That is a thing it does not attempt to do. Those who have experience in this House ought to know well that such a thing would be absolutely impossible. What holds true for the Dáil in reference to the country holds equally true, though to a lesser extent, in the case of the city. But you have complexity in both cases. It is fair to say that, comparing the extent of the districts and the number of people to be dealt with, it would be quite as impossible for a city council in modern times to carry on the administration of the city as well as decide its policy in anything like an efficient manner. It is not a question of corruption one way or another. A number of individual citizens have put themselves forward again and again for election. They have taken on their shoulders the business of the government of different areas—different organised centres and cities. They have undertaken that burden, but it is becoming increasingly impossible for them to do it if they are not to be relieved of the purely administrative side of the duties of local government, and that is really what is at the basis of the desire to distinguish the functions of the manager from the functions of the council.

The whole case made against the Bill from that point of view is based on the assumption that the normal relation between the City Manager and the Council will be one of distrust and a desire to hamper each other in forwarding the general interests of the citizens, whose welfare it is their business to promote I refuse to take that particular view of the relations that would prevail between the Council and the City Manager. When representatives are chosen at an election they are, at the very best, chosen because they represent a certain general policy. That very often happens. They may be chosen also on account of certain general abilities they have, but nobody could suggest that a person is generally chosen because he has a particular administrative ability. He is not chosen from that point of view. He may represent a certain point of view as to the duties of a municipal council, what it should undertake or should not undertake; whether it should undertake more services and therefore increase the rates, or whether it should lop off some services already there and therefore cut down the rates Questions of general policy of that kind generally govern elections to municipal bodies. The members are not elected on account of their administrative ability. As a result of the increasing business devolving upon them, that question of the administration is becoming of greater and greater importance, with the result that it becomes a matter of life and death to a city, especially a big city like Dublin, to get expert advice, to get specialist advice, and the best type of manager you can get to look after the purely administrative side of the matter.

The Bill attempts quite a number of things, and having read some of the criticism to which it was subjected outside the House and listened to the criticism offered to the Bill by Deputy O'Connell and Deputy O'Kelly, it seems to me, if I express my own personal point of view, that the Bill was attacked on account of its merits and not on account of any demerits it may have. It was attacked because of the good points it has, so far as this is a Bill to promote the future government of the City of Dublin.

It has been thrown in our faces that this Bill is undemocratic. Any attempt to interfere with the old system that we have inherited from what we may call the Victorian days is always denounced as undemocratic. I know there is one party opposite especially that cannot get away from the prejudice of confusing democratic institutions and British institutions. From the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the twentieth century, when local government in England had to a certain extent become democratic, because to an extent it had always some kind of representative character, there was the view that attempts to interfere with it must cut away the root principles of democracy. We have had that particular prejudice to face in this House again and again. I cannot see that there was anything essentially democratic in the particular type of local government that came down to us from a very aristocratic period, that was particularly suited and developed in one country, but which had very little to do with the general principles of democracy, and for a long period of its existence was completely in disagreement with it. The question is, what has anybody interested in democratic government, whether workman or capitalist, to gain from wasteful administration? If you have wasteful administration, that is not necessarily due to any corrupt qualities on the part of the people elected, but to the fact that you are putting upon people whose business is not primarily local administration, work they cannot possibly undertake. We hold that it is in the interest of democratic institutions that you should have good administration. Everybody will realise that new burdens are being put upon the taxpayers and the ratepayers. New services are undertaken by central governments and local governments. That being so, surely if the burdens are not to become intolerable it is our duty to see that the money raised is properly administered. It is of prime interest for the future continuance of anything like democratic government to see that the thing is properly administered. That is the reason why we take our stand on this question, and what Deputy O'Connell harps back upon and called the managerial system. It is a practical matter; it is a question of life and death for local institutions in this country, because if there is not proper management the burdens will become so heavy that you will have to revert to what Deputy O'Kelly would call autocracy.

Other points with which I shall deal were raised by Deputy O'Connell. He took three points which he said were the crucial points of the Bill. One was the question of the extent of the city. Deputy O'Kelly, on the whole, so far as a Second Reading speech went, followed Deputy O'Connell very closely. Deputy O'Connell suggested that in dealing with the coastal townships we were tied down by old tradition. Surely we are not. So far as traditions are effective at all, and so far as Deputy O'Connell brought them out, they referred to two other townships. We are not tied down by old traditions. To say that merely because a thing has existed for a number of years, and merely because these townships have enjoyed to a considerable extent from time immemorial, or certainly for a long time, certain privileges, that in itself because it is an old tradition is not sufficient now to do away with their separate autonomy.

Mr. O'Connell

Why take in Rathmines?

It is a question which you ought to take in or which you leave out. It is not a question of principle. Rathmines and Pembroke are geographically much more close to Dublin in interest and more closely bound up with Dublin than the other townships mentioned. Deputy O'Connell mentioned various other places like Foxrock because the people who live there have their business in Dublin. He asked why treat them like Skerries. Skerries also has to a large extent its existence in Dublin. Deputy Davin made a very illuminating remark about Greystones. Precisely, his argument so far as it was valid, would lead to the inclusion of Greystones in the Bill. It is not true to say that we have given them increased power. We have not. We have joined them together and consolidated them. Deputy O'Connell also used the phrase that we had consolidated them. We have. By this Bill we have attempted to consolidate them but we have not given them increased powers, and I see no reason why there should be any more difficulty if the time comes, and I think Deputies O'Connell and O'Kelly saw it coming very soon, when the demand would be irresistible. If a demand became irresistible it could not be resisted and, therefore, the millennium will come.

Mr. O'Connell

There will be costly vested interests to get rid of.

Not necessarily. It would be easier to deal with one borough with a central administration than with three different ones.

Mr. O'Connell

That is a thirty years' old argument.

No. We suggest that the case has been definitely made out. As Deputy O'Connell himself pointed out, the case is long ago made out, so far as Rathmines and Pembroke are concerned. The contention of the Minister for Local Government is that no case has been made out for inclusion, so far as the coastal townships are concerned. To justify inclusion and their addition to the City of Dublin some attempt should be made to show that there was community of interest requiring their absorption in the city. No such attempt has been made The Minister gave several reasons why it would be unwise to incorporate these townships in the city. But it was assumed that because they had the same tramway system as Dublin, because they had the same police service as Dublin, therefore they should be included in the city. That argument was applied. It is a matter for the common-sense of the Dáil to decide whether this Bill is just in including Rathmines and Pembroke and not including the coastal boroughs. Then what services are there in common which would require to be dealt with by a common authority over them, common to the coastal borough and to the new greater City of Dublin?

The other point that has been raised is a question of the franchise. Before I pass from the question of the coastal borough, those who have listened to the debate will have noticed that both Deputy O'Connell and Deputy O'Kelly took up the line, and anybody not knowing the actual state of things as they are at present, would certainly be under the impression that these were integral portions already of the civil administration of Dublin that we were lopping off the City of Dublin administration. It may be said that that was a mere matter of words. It was not, but a clever shifting of the onus of proof. They took it for granted that they were in the City of Dublin, and that the onus of proof lay on those who were outside, whereas the normal thing is to take for granted the existing state of affairs, and the onus of proof lies on those who want to change it.

The last matter I will deal with is the question of the business franchise. At a public meeting held in the City of Dublin the Bill was objected to on the very extraordinary grounds that this was an effort to give over 16 per cent. of the representation of the City of Dublin in the new City Council to foreign capitalists, though if one-fourth of what we have heard about the new City Council is true, the wonder is that Deputy O'Kelly or Deputy O'Connell should care in the least as to who gets in or as to who gets out. This was the statement made by a Mr. Daly—I do not know whether I should call him a colleague of Deputy O'Connell or not—namely, that 16 per cent. of the representation of the new City of Dublin was to be given over to foreign capitalism. Some people, I suggest, have foreign capitalism on the brain. I think the phrase used by Deputy O'Kelly was that a man was to get votes because he had a big bank balance. That is precisely what the principle involved in the Bill tries to avoid. It was not because people have property of a certain amount that they were given an extra vote, this special representation. It was because they represented business interests and, presumably, gave employment.

We have heard a great deal of discussion in this House about the lack of employment in the City of Dublin, the lack of energy of business men, and the first effort this Government makes in a Bill of this kind to do something to give that particular type of interest representation is immediately denounced as a betrayal of all democratic principles, as a setting back of the clock, as a going back to 1832. Listening to Deputy O'Kelly more than Deputy O'Connell, I was under the impression that we were disfranchising a lot of people and that the only people who had votes were people with certain property qualifications. We are not disfranchising anyone. The ordinary person will exercise his vote, but the question is: is it advisable to have a capitalist or two, if possible, in a corporation like the Council of Dublin if you can get them there, a corporation, one part of whose principal business will be the promotion and development of the interests of the City of Dublin and the raising of large loans for that particular purpose. I suggest that if anyone will be useful for giving advice there that a man with business interests will be useful. It is a problem to solve and the taking of people of that particular type on will help it.

Deputy O'Connell says that they can get on on a normal register. We are not interested in can they get on. The question is, do they get on? This seems a way of giving what I might call functional representation to a type who have an interest in the city, people who are not merely property owners but business men and who give employment. That is what is at the basis of this particular franchise that is objected to. These are the main points of the Bill. They are the points dealt with in Deputy O'Connell's speech. I suggest we have here a real effort to advance a very definite step in the direction of better government for the capital of this country. I suggest that none of the arguments that have been used by the mover of this amendment or the supporter of this amendment would be sufficient to induce the House to vote against the Bill on these particular grounds. It contains these principles and we are prepared to face the vote of the House on the merits of these particular principles.

I must protest against the Minister for Education's statement that a man was in the past not elected for his special ability as a civic administrator. As perhaps the oldest citizen of Dublin here at present I must say that I always rejoice that Alderman W.T. Cosgrave and Alderman S.T. O'Kelly were, in the eyes of the public, elected for their special administrative ability and business acumen to the Corporation of Dublin.

I think that the proposal for the future local government of the City of Dublin which is contained in this Bill had been killed before this debate commenced, and has not been revived by the speeches we have just heard from the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Education. Before the corpse is finally interred, I would like to take a hand in the post mortem examination, because I think we might possibly get some ideas that will be of use when we do attempt to tackle this problem of the future government of the capital of the State. The most remarkable thing about this Bill, in my opinion, is the fact that not one single voice outside the Executive Council has been raised in unqualified support of it. Every political section of the community and every class of the citizens of Dublin have, through their representative, condemned this Bill more or less with qualifications. We have seen, on the one hand, where the Trades Union Council called on this Dáil unanimously to reject it. We have seen where such a representative business man as the Chairman of the Dublin Port and Docks Board, Mr. McGloughlin, said that if the position in Dublin is to be similar to the ridiculous position existing in Cork, where the council has no control over the City Manager, in his opinion no sensible man would seek a place on the council. "If that is to be the position," he concluded, "I think the council ought to be boycotted." That proposal to boycott the council which it is proposed to establish under this Bill might conceivably have come from some supporter or some member of the Fianna Fáil Party. It might even have come from some member or supporter of the Labour Party. But when we find it coming from such an individual as the Chairman of the Port and Docks Board we must come to the conclusion that this Bill is fundamentally rotten.

I think when we come to the examination of this Bill we will have very little difficulty in deciding that it is bad. It is not merely bad in principle, but it has been badly drafted. It has been so badly drafted that I think it is impossible for it to be amended in Committee. If there is any Deputy here under the illusion that he will be able to convince the Minister for Local Government as to the inadvisability of any particular part of the Bill in Committee and that, therefore, the Bill can be given a Second Reading in the hope that such a change would be effected, I would ask that Deputy seriously to endeavour to set down in writing the amendment which he would move to effect the alteration which he thinks should be made. Any Deputy doing that will, I think, come to the conclusion that not merely is this Bill rotten in principle, as I have said, but is so drafted as to be practically incapable of amendment.

The Minister for Education has produced a number of rather ingenious arguments to justify some of its provisions. The extraordinary procedure which has been adopted in relation to this question of local government in Dublin makes it almost impossible to hope that any Bill which the existing Government framed could be anything better than the present one. The City Council was abolished in 1924 and Commissioners were established in place of them. The Greater Dublin Commission was established to consider the question of municipal government as a whole, and to bring in recommendations as to the manner in which the charter of the Corporation could be altered after the Commissioners' term of office had expired. That Commission, as Deputy O'Kelly said, went to great trouble in the collection of evidence. It spent a long time in the preparation of its report and when its report was prepared and produced it lay in the office of the Minister for Local Government for four years, and at the end of the four years was torn up. Apparently the members of the Executive Council think that they can afford to ignore every opinion which is contrary to their own preconceived ideas. Why, however, they went through this farce of establishing a Commission, of printing that Commission's report, at the public expense, merely for the sake of ignoring its recommendations, I cannot see.

Take this matter of the new city which it is proposed to establish in the southern side of Dublin. Deputies and Ministers have referred to it as the coastal borough. That is a term taken from the report of the Greater Dublin Commission and which is not contained in the Bill. The proposal in the Bill is altogether contrary to the proposal contained in the Greater Dublin Commission's report. The coastal borough which the Greater Dublin Commission contemplated was to be a body subordinate to the municipal council and limited in its functions to matters which were of concern only to the areas to be included in it. Even that proposal to establish the subordinate coastal borough within the area of Greater Dublin was accepted very reluctantly by the Greater Dublin Commission. If this Bill contained the proposal of the Greater Dublin Commission in that respect unaltered I would still be opposed to it. There is one city here on Dublin Bay and one only, and we want that city under one authority.

The Minister for Education asked that some attempt should be made to show that a community of interests exists between the townships of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire and the old city. Why is it not the duty of the Minister for Local Government, who introduced this Bill, to show that such a community of interests does not exist? Why are we to take it for granted that the specially privileged communities which were established by the British Government represent the natural order of things with which we must not interfere without good cause? Surely there should be a presumption in favour of the existence of one city only and that that city should not be divided into separate administrative areas without very good cause indeed. This proposal to establish a coastal borough can only be carried into effect at very great cost to the taxpayers. I hope that point is appreciated by every Deputy.

No case, I say, has yet been made out to convince this House that its establishment is necessary. We will consider later the few arguments that have been advanced, but before doing so let us consider the overwhelming nature of the case which can be made against it. Not one Deputy—not even the Deputy who is interrupting, for example—has told us what particular argument exists for having duplicated control in relation to such services as main drainage, water supply, public lighting, road-making, fire brigade. Are we going to have a repetition of the old system by which when a fire occurred anywhere near the city boundary the captains of the fire brigades drove out with a map of their area in their hands, and before they could turn a hose to extinguish the flames they would have to be satisfied that the fire was within their functional area.

Does the Deputy suggest that main drainage in the coastal borough could in any way be co-operated with the main drainage of the city?

If we are going to consider this question of the drainage in the coastal borough, there is another matter to be taken into account. The citizens of the City of Dublin have a considerable interest in the drainage system of the coastal borough. At present the drainage is emptied on the foreshore of Dublin where the poor children from the Dublin tenements go to take their holidays. The ratepayers of this coastal borough may be effecting some sort of saving by that system, but I say that any municipal council that had the interests of the poor Dublin people at heart would not permit that system to continue. The main drainage of the coastal borough is emptied untreated into the waters of Dublin Bay, the only place where the vast majority of our citizens can get a summer holiday. They cannot all go to the Riviera when they feel tired of working.

Take such questions as the registration of jurors and voters, of maternity and child-welfare, school attendance, reformatories and industrial schools, and technical education, what case has been made out by anybody in support of duplicating systems of administration in respect of these services? Take the question of food inspection. It has been stated to me by individuals who are prepared to stand over their statements that the system of food inspection at present in operation in the township of Dun Laoghaire, is corrupt to the core. Is that system to continue in operation unchecked? Do Deputies not think that we could get a better system of administration in respect of that service if we had unified control for the whole city? Not merely, therefore, do the Government propose to duplicate these services in the City of Dublin, to maintain dual staffs, dual managers and dual equipment, but there is nothing in this Bill to provide that there will even be consultation between the two councils in respect of them. So complete is the separation that no link whatever is maintained. Do Deputies think that that is going to make for efficiency? Do they think that this duplication in respect of essential services is going to make for economy? If the business men of the City of Dublin have any interest in this Bill, that interest should be to secure the most efficient form of administration at the lowest price. In respect of this one matter, at any rate, the most efficient form of administration, at the lowest price, could be secured by having one authority for the City of Dublin which extends around the whole Bay.

There are other questions which the Minister did not deal with. Will this Dun Laoghaire Borough Council have control over the harbour at Dun Laoghaire? Is this Dun Laoghaire Borough Council to be free to develop that harbour in competition with the port of Dublin? Are we going to have a trade war between the two councils in respect of that service? Some Deputies, at any rate, know that the transference of the passenger services from the North Wall to Dun Laoghaire harbour resulted in a considerable loss of revenue to the Port and Docks Board, involving an increase in tonnage dues and consequent diversion of traffic to the ports of Belfast and Cork. If the Dun Laoghaire Council is to be free to develop the State-subsidised harbour at Dun Laoghaire in competition with the Dublin port, then we can contemplate a further increase in harbour dues here and a further diversion of traffic from Dublin. What case has been made for the proposal? We have been told that there is no natural boundary to the city. We can make a boundary to the city, whether it is natural or unnatural. We are told by the Ministerially-inspired editor of "The Star" that we should contemplate the spectacle of the street cleansing machines starting out from the depôt on the quays to sweep the streets of the Dun Laoghaire borough. What a wasteful method of administration! The only service in respect of which that inspired leader-writer was able to offer any case for dual administration was in regard to street-cleaning. Apparently the imagination of Ministers and of their supporters does not run the length of contemplating the establishment of a separate depôt in Dun Laoghaire, not necessarily under separate control.

Has any other case been made for duplication? I say deliberately that the only case that exists for the establishment of this city at Dun Laoghaire is a political one. It has nothing whatever to do with the interests of the ratepayers, nor with the efficiency of these services. This separate borough is being set up because the political interests of Cumann na nGaedheal so require it. It may be thought necessary that we should have a Mayor who would harmonise with the background at Dun Laoghaire pier when distinguished foreign visitors are about to arrive. It may be thought undesirable that members of the Government should take the risk of a democratically elected Mayor from the City of Dublin rubbing shoulders with them on such occasions at Dun Laoghaire harbour. Therefore, they think it is necessary to get one of the right colour to fill that rôle. It may be that the Government were given to understand by a section of their supporters who have shown in the past that they exercise the most influence in their councils, that their continued support for Cumann na nGaedheal was dependent upon their being kept within this imperialistic reservation. Deputies will not deny that the separate councils of Rathmines and Pembroke were established for political reasons. Any Deputy who has any doubts on that matter can resolve them for himself by looking up the history of these two bodies. These councils were set up because the members of one political section could always be certain of having a majority on them. I suggest that identical reasons have operated to secure the establishment of this city at Dun Laoghaire. I hope, no matter what case can be made for every other provision in the Bill, that it will be rejected because of the inclusion in it of this one particular proposal.

When we consider the question of establishing this second city at Dun Laoghaire, we have also to consider the question of the area it is proposed to include under the municipal council. Reference has been made in the debate to the necessity for town planning. Proposals were put forward by the Greater Dublin Commission in respect of this new service of town planning. These proposals have been rejected by the Government while offering no alternative proposals. There is nothing in the Bill concerning town planning. The Minister talks of consultations between the two borough councils in this respect. It is not consultation that is wanted. We can consult and discuss the matter as much as we choose. There have been consultations about this question for 20 years, but nothing has been done. What is required is legislative power, in the hands of some executive authority, so that the question can be properly dealt with. If we want to secure that the growth of the City of Dublin will be properly regulated, we must have not merely a town planning authority but around the city a belt of virgin land on which building has not yet begun and over which any development that takes place can be properly controlled. We do not want to have cement villas, with red tiles strung out along all the roads around Dublin, offering no attractiveness from the point of view of rural beauty. We want to see some authority in existence that will ensure that the amenities around Dublin will not be spoiled by the speculative builder.

There are undoubtedly proposals in the Bill to provide for the inclusion in the borough area of areas which it is not proposed to include now. Apparently the idea is that as soon as unurbanised areas have become urbanised in any way that they like, without regulation and without control, they can be brought within the city. The growth of the capital is to be left to chance. That particular defect in the Bill has been criticised more than any other by that section of the Government supporters which is vocal through the columns of the "Irish Times" and such organs as the "Irish Statesman." I think it is likely, in consequence of that fact, that we will be able to get the Government to change its attitude in that respect before the Bill becomes an Act.

You will get a great surprise over that.

We are always glad to get a surprise from the Government. As a rule, we can foretell with considerable accuracy what they are going to do. We will wait for the surprise. Coming to the constitution of the council, the Minister for Local Government, in introducing this measure, gave the impression that the question of securing adequate representation for particular interests was not considered. In fixing the size of the council the only question taken into account was the number required to secure the efficient carrying out of the work of the council. This theory that a legislative council improves in efficiency in inverse proportion to its numbers is, I think, fundamentally unsound. If, however, there is anything in the idea the Minister did not explain to us why twenty-five members represent the acme of efficiency in the case of the City of Dublin, but fifteen have equal virtue in reference to the Dun Laoghaire Borough. If we are to leave out of account altogether the number of voters per representative and think only of the numbers required to secure a proper atmosphere for the discussion of policy, then we have to compare the proposed council in Dublin with this Dáil. Surely, if twenty-five members of the Dublin Borough Council represent the most efficient machine which can be devised by the Executive Council for deciding policy in respect of Dublin City, a similar number should be equally effective in deciding policy for the country? Size does not matter, population does not matter, the relative importance of the question does not matter. It is the actual working of the council only that matters, according to the Minister for Local Government. I say we cannot leave out of account the question of representation. We want to secure that every considerable interest amongst the ratepayers will have a representative on the municipal council. We want to get upon that council the greatest possible variety of views consistent with efficiency.

And sanity.

And sanity. We want to secure that a body of citizens, numbering for example 10,000, with some special interest common to them, will be able to elect at least one representative on the borough council to speak for them. Is there any objection to that principle? Is there any reason to believe that a council consisting of forty members, say, would not be able effectively to carry out the very limited powers which it is proposed to give it under this Bill? What has been the experience in relation to the Cork City Council? The average attendance at meetings of that council has been less than one-half the total membership. That may be explainable by the fact that the powers of the council were so curtailed. I hold there would have been a better opportunity of having the affairs of Cork properly discussed if a larger council had been established in the first instance. Members of the Executive Council are, I think, always mixing up the idea that for executive purposes a small committee is more useful than a large one with the idea of a legislative council. For the purpose of legislation what is required is a proper representation of the views of all the people concerned. For the purpose of administration you want merely unity of control. The proposal to unify the administrative functions of the corporation in one individual is in our opinion good, and we are prepared to accept it, but we think that the legislative functions of the corporation cannot be possibly carried out unless the basis of representation is much wider than that proposed in the Bill.

Another remarkable result of the operation of the Cork City Management Act has been that practically no public interest whatever exists in Cork in the actions of the council. Any citizen of Cork, the members of Cumann na nGaedheal in this House, the members of Cumann na nGaedheal on the Cork Council, the members of Cumann na nGaedheal whom President Cosgrave met at a recent reception, every one of them, I am sure, would have told him if he asked them that public interest in the activities of the Cork Council was non-existent. The reason for that is that the basis of representation is too small. That was only one reason, I admit. The absence of powers which they should have was another. Let us come now to the question of the commercial register.

No, the powers.

I will deal with the powers in due course. I want to deal with the constitution of the council first. There is a theory current, not merely in this country but outside it, that democracy is on its trial. It is on its trial quite a long time. Let us in regard to this proposal conduct one part of the trial. Let us call some witnesses for the defence. I will call President Cosgrave as the first witness. He will testify, I think, from his experience as a member of Dublin Corporation that he did not find administrative ability was the monopoly of any one class. He found good administrators and bad administrators amongest the business men on that body, and he found good administrators and bad administrators amongst representatives of labour on that council. The President will not deny that, I think.

I think I stated that is the case.

I thought the President might have forgotten. He stated that fact in this House before the Bill was drafted. Nevertheless, he is assenting to this proposal, which has as its fundamental idea the theory that only amongst the business community can good corporators be found. I want the Minister for Local Government to tell me one State or one country in the world where this idea of a business man's Government has proved workable. We have had a lot of talk about the necessity of getting business men into the Dáil and Corporation, but why cannot we judge by the experience of other people? Can we find one place where the idea of the business man in politics was carried on with successful results? I do not think so. The only interest which the business man has is the question of presenting a balance-sheet at the end of the year. That is all right in business, but it is only of minor importance in politics. In political affairs principles come into operation. The business man is not trained to consider principles at all, and he is concerned only with profits, but profits have no place in municipal government, and no one emphasised that theory more forcibly than the President and Vice-President of the Executive Council. The theory that riches constitute a criterion of efficiency is, as I said by way of interruption earlier in the debate, inherited from antediluvian times. The principles on which this particular section of the Bill was framed were current in the days of Neanderthal man.

We have had some talk as to whether the old municipal council was or was not corrupt. We have had from both sides of the House assurances that it was not corrupt in recent years but that before the basis of representation was widened and when we had a strict property qualification in relation to the Corporation there was any amount of corruption in the municipal affairs of Dublin. In any case the absolute amount which an individual pays is of no importance. I have no doubt that President Cosgrave pays a much larger amount in rates than I do but I have equally no doubt that proportionately he pays less. It is the amount which a man pays in proportion to his total resources that matters. The Minister for Local Government gave an example of the possibility of Ford's coming here and establishing a factory and he asked whether the Ford Company should have only the same say in municipal affairs as the caretaker in the Concern would have.

No, but should they have none. I said "none."

I will deal with that I want to know who suggested this proposal in the Bill. It was not suggested by the Chambers of Commerce. I was approached by a person who stated that he was appointed by the Associated Chambers of Commerce, that the most they wanted was votes for companies, one vote to one company, and they did not ask for more. He told me that he approached the Minister for Local Government and was informed by him that the Government could not take the responsibility of introducing that proposal because they knew that it would be opposed by Fianna Fáil and that consequently Fianna Fáil would gain some political kudos.

Surely the Deputy does not say that his informant told him that?

That is the second surprise to-night.

I do most certainly say that I was so informed by the person who came to me as representing the Associated Chambers of Commerce. The Government are proposing to give to these business interests much more than they have asked for. We want to know why that is so. We do not believe that it is because they are convinced that it is the best system of municipal control but rather that it is a quid pro quo for something, and we want to know for what.

As I was saying, all citizens pay proportionately the same amount in rates, and are consequently all equally concerned as to the manner in which rates are spent. The system which it is proposed to establish by this Bill is going to give preferential treatment to foreign companies with rateable property in Dublin. I have been elected to represent 11,000 citizens, but I will have less say in the election of the Municipal Council than several foreign companies, whose only interest in the city is to make as much profit as possible out of the citizens. Why should we permit a firm like Burton's to have a say in the election of the Dublin Municipal Council, irrespective of the rates they pay? This Bill is copied from the constitution of the Dublin Port and Docks Board. We are the only port in the world, so far as I have been able to discover, that permits foreign shipowners to have a vote in the election of the harbour board. We are going to translate this magnificent new principle into municipal affairs and allow foreigners to elect the municipal council by giving them half a dozen votes, whereas the ordinary citizen can only get one. I hope that there will be found in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party some people, at any rate, with sufficient interest in public affairs to vote against this antediluvian proposal. The principle that a person should be able to exercise political influence according to his wealth is the negation of democracy. Democracy, of course, is not fashionable now. We heard a speech from the Minister for Education deriding democracy. Since he has been attending assemblies of the League of Nations at Geneva and rubbing shoulders with Mussolini he has come back to let the light shine on the darkness of our Victorian ignorance. Certainly we have learned more about democracy from the Minister for Education this evening than we learned from our own experience since 1918 at any rate.

What about the Stone Age?

We are progressing. The Minister told us that the abolition of the Dublin Municipal Council and its replacement by Commissioners was a big step forward.

What about the Stone Age?

There seems to be a survival of that age on benches opposite. We are still going forward. This proposal seems to be a survival of the idea that we move in cycles, so that if we keep going we will eventually come round to the Stone Age again—Stone age municipal government, Stone Age Deputies.

Stone Age speeches.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

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