In reply to a question which I put to the Minister for Finance to-day I got some information with regard to the Dáil Eireann Internal Loan. He informed me that to date £292,000 odd has been paid back to subscribers; that for the current year £33,000—I am taking principal only—has been paid back, and that there remained to be paid £86,000. He further informed me that the staff employed in attending to this work consisted of 21 officers, costing £4,377 per annum. He said that in the case of supervision, where the higher officers of his Department were occupied in the work of this particular section, he could not possibly apportion the amount that was paid for that particular work, so that we have not really the total cost of this particular section.
We find, on examination of the various financial accounts for some years back, that in the first year of the repayment, that is, the year ending the 31st of March, 1928, the sum of £226,000 was issued for payment in addition to the interest of £90,000; that in the following year £42,000 was repaid, and this year to date the amount paid was £33,000. That means that since the 31st of March, 1928, for the period of two years, this staff has succeeded in paying back £75,000, and the cost to the country for that work has been almost £9,000. It cost £8,740 to distribute £59,000 of capital subscribed to the Internal Loan. That is, it is costing at the rate of 15 per cent. to pay this money back to the subscribers. I am perfectly certain that the cost of the collection did not amount to any such sum. As a matter of fact, we find in prospectuses issued in forming companies that the usual allowance for collection of capital is one-and-a-quarter per cent. I find, from examination of finance accounts, that the cost for floating the Second National Loan was 2.3 per cent. I believe that the collection of the Dáil Eireann Internal Loan did not cost even 2.3 per cent., because at that time the money was collected by the people free of charge.
We all know from our own experience that the money was given willingly by the people, and collectors were not paid for their services. We know, also, that when people who subscribed to the Dáil Eireann Loan asked civil questions we gave them civil answers. We charged nothing for our services in collecting that money. But now, when the Minister is asked to pay back that money, when subscribers write letters to civil servants who have to be paid for returning that money and dealing with queries in connection with it, they do not even get a civil answer. They do not get an answer at all in many cases. If a person insists that he is a subscriber he is treated with the greatest suspicion. If a former collector sends up a list of people from whom he collected money at that time, he gets no satisfaction from the Finance Department, and the result is that many of those collectors, who did their work free of charge at the time when collecting that money, are looked upon now with suspicion by people who subscribed the money and have not got it back, and are actually accused of having kept the money, and of not sending it on to the Finance Department. The Finance Department will not go so far as to write and reassure those people, and tell them that the money was received from the collectors but that they have not been able to verify the names and the amount. That would, in many cases at least, save the characters of the collectors concerned.
Last year, on the 1st May, I asked a series of questions of the Minister for Finance about the number of people who subscribed to the Dáil Eireann Loan in South County Wexford. I got a reply to each question, but it was the same reply, and it was to the effect: "I would refer the Deputy to a previous reply given to a similar question." Again I asked on 27th November, 1929, about the money that was subscribed and again I got the reply, "I would refer the Deputy to my previous reply to a similar question." The people got no satisfaction, even though they are only anxious to see whether their money was received by the Finance Department. They are not even informed whether the money ever came to the Finance Department at all. I do not intend to go into particular cases to any extent, because I have been asked by other Deputies to allow them time to say a few words upon this motion, but there are two or three cases that I would like to cite. There is one man whose case is amongst those I asked about on the 1st May, and again on the 27th November. He assures me that two years ago he sent his official receipt to the Finance Department, but never got an acknowledgment even that they had received the receipt, not to speak at all of his not receiving the money he had subscribed. The second man, I remember, was a labouring man in the town of Wexford when the Dáil Eireann Loan was being subscribed. He came to me of his own accord at that time and told me that he had saved a certain small sum of money, and asked me would I advise him to put it into the Dáil Eireann Loan as an investment. I told him, as honestly as I could, that it would be a patriotic thing to do, but I said I was not prepared to guarantee that it would be a business-like thing to do. However, he looked upon it as a patriotic thing and he invested £5 out of his savings. I have asked questions again and again on that man's behalf, but I never got an answer except, "I would refer the Deputy to a previous reply given by me." That man now wants his money back, and wants it badly, but I cannot promise him that he will ever get it, because I cannot get a definite reply to any questions I asked.
There is a third case. There was a family in the town of Wexford that were fairly wealthy at that time, and there never was a fund open for the Republican movement that they did not subscribe to liberally. We had various funds at the time—an Anti-Conscription Fund, a General Election Fund, a Railway Fund and the Dáil Eireann Loan, and for every one of these funds these people subscribed every time liberally when asked. The house of these people was raided often, so that they had not been able to preserve the receipts they got for the Dáil Eireann Loan, and they have not been able to say what amount they subscribed. They were so liberal in their subscriptions to every one of these funds that they have forgotten how much they subscribed to this fund, but it is quite definite that they subscribed liberally. They have written again and again to the Finance Department, and have sought interviews with the persons responsible for the return of this money. They have not found out yet whether they are registered with the Department. They have not even got the satisfaction of knowing that they are registered with that Department. They cannot get even that much information. These are three very typical cases. I asked questions on this matter on a few occasions. Four of those questions each contained a list of between 20 and 30 names. If I had the information I could supply particulars of all that the Department required. I have the information about some of these cases. If I had the information about 70 or 80 of these cases I could give the House the particulars about them as I have done in the case of the three that I have mentioned. These three cases that I have now referred to are typical of many of the cases about which I put questions.
I put it to the Minister that he should at least instruct the officer concerned in this matter to give a civil reply to a subscriber or to an alleged subscriber if you like. I put it to him that when a person writes to the Department to know if he is registered as a Dáil Loan subscriber or to know when he is going to have his money returned to him, that he should be given a reply. I submit that if we in this country are going to pay over £4,000 a year to a staff who are distributing between £30,000 and £40,000 a year, that that staff ought at least have a little time to reply to questions in a civil manner. They ought to go even further, and if the Government is prepared to find the money—that may be difficult too— they ought be able to pay out this money at a little quicker and faster rate than that at which they have been paying it out during the last two years. If the Minister tells us that he is not in a position to make payments for these Dáil Loans until he floats the next National Loan in order to get funds for his Exchequer, then I may tell him that we will take that as a reasonable reply. But if he is going to get up here and make the usual statements referring us to previous replies on this matter, then I will say that we cannot accept any such answer as a reasonable answer to the complaints that we have put up on so many occasions as to the delay of his Department in dealing with these loans.
