Vol. 33 No. 14
A Message has been received from the Seanad in regard to an amendment made by the Dáil to an amendment inserted by the Seanad in the Game Preservation Bill. The Message states:—
Seanad Eireann has passed the following Resolution:—
"That the Seanad insists upon amendment No. 6 in its original form made by it to the Game Preservation Bill, 1929, to which the Dáil has agreed with an amendment—viz., the deletion of sub-section (5) of the proposed new section."
The Seanad has passed the following Resolution:—
"That it is desirable that a Conference be held between members of the Seanad and the Dáil upon amendment No. 6 made by the Seanad to the Game Preservation Bill, 1929, to which the Dáil has agreed with an amendment—viz., the deletion of sub-section (5) of the proposed new section, and upon which the Seanad has decided to insist in its original form:
"That five Senators represent the Seanad at the proposed Conference:
"And that a Message be sent to the Dáil acquainting them accordingly and requesting their concurrence."
I move:—
"That the Dáil agree with the Seanad in this Resolution."
Deputies will recollect that the Seanad put in an amendment to the Game Preservation Bill enabling the Minister for Justice to set up a consultative council to advise me in carrying out the duties imposed or the rights given to me by the Bill.
On a point of order, I am rather in a difficulty. I understand that the Minister for Justice is proposing a motion, but I do not see any notice of motion on the Order Paper. I see a notification to the effect that the Seanad has passed a certain Resolution, but I do not see any notice of motion to nominate five members of the Dáil to represent Dáil Eireann.
What is on the Order Paper is a Message from the Seanad saying that the Seanad has passed a particular Resolution. In accordance with Standing Orders and the practice of the House, a Message from the Seanad is put on the Order Paper next prepared after the Message is received. The Minister or Deputy concerned, generally it is a Minister, announces to the House on that or some succeeding day his intention with regard to the Message from the Seanad. The intention of the Minister to move concurrence with the Message from the Seanad was announced some days ago, last week I think. All the Minister is doing now is moving that the Dáil concurs with the Seanad in this Resolution. If the Dáil agrees to concur with the Seanad Resolution a Message will be sent to the Seanad acquainting them of that fact. The Seanad will then proceed to set up a committee and a further motion will be required here to set up a committee on our side. The Minister is not now proposing to set up a committee but he is taking an important step in that particular process by proposing concurrence. It is not usual to put down a motion but it is usual to give notice of the intention of the Government. In accordance with notice, the Minister is now moving concurrence. Does that meet the Deputy's point?
Yes.
The notice was given on 6th March.
The Dáil agreed with that amendment, which I have mentioned and which was made by the Seanad, except for one sub-section. This was part of the amendment which was deleted in the Dáil:—
"Payment may be made by the Minister out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas to the members of the said consultative council or any committees thereof to such an extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance in respect of the repayment of travelling expenses and the payment of subsistence allowances."
That was objected to for two reasons. In the first place, in my view it was hardly necessary, because there is an existing Section 32, which says that "all expenses of carrying this Act into effect shall, to such extent as shall be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas." If it is necessary to pay travelling expenses to the members of the consultative council, if set up, they can be paid by the Minister for Finance. I ask the Dáil to reject that, as the Seanad really imposed a new tax. The Seanad have taken the line that they are entitled to propose a new tax, and they insist on their amendment. They request a consultation between the two Houses, and I think it is only courtesy on the part of this House to meet the Seanad and talk the matter over as between our representatives and theirs.
I regret that we cannot accept the position which has been taken up by the Minister for Justice in this matter. We think that the action of the Seanad is one which does not permit of discussion between this House and the Seanad, and the mere holding of a conference might be held afterwards to be an acceptance of the principle that the Seanad has a right to impose what, as the Minister said, would be a fresh charge. In view of the many attempts which the Seanad has made from time to time to encroach upon the rights of the Dáil in regard to financial matters, we think that the time has come when the Dáil should say to the Seanad that it is not prepared to discuss with the Seanad any further matters arising out of any unwarranted attempt on the part of the Seanad to secure for itself privileges and rights which are not conferred on it by the Constitution. One of the reasons which strengthen us in that attitude is the fact that this particular amendment is altogether unnecessary. If the Seanad in amending the Bill thought that certain machinery should be set up, the expense of which should be borne out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, the Dáil itself had already taken steps to that end when it passed Section 32 of the Bill, which provides that "all expenses of carrying this Act into effect shall, to such extent as shall be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas." In view of that it would seem that the insertion of a sub-section into this new section was redundant and unnecessary and was merely a provocative attempt on the part of the Seanad to create for itself a privilege and a right which is denied to any private member in this House.
Under the following Standing Order it is laid down that "Every motion for any aid, grant or charge on the public revenue or for any charge upon the people shall be considered in Committee of the whole Dáil to be known as the Committee on Finance." The Standing Order proceeds "No such motion as aforesaid, nor any amendment thereto proposing to increase the amount named in any such motion may be made by any Deputy save a member of the Executive Council." That is a very salutary provision because it means that those who have not the responsibility for administration should not have the power to create a fresh charge on the public purse. The members of this House have laboured under that restriction and the Ceann Comhairle has often imposed it on us. I have no doubt that if sub-section 5 of this particular section had been moved by any private member of the Dáil the Ceann Comhairle would have ruled the motion out of order. It certainly seems strange that the Seanad, which under the spirit of the Constitution, has no control whatever over financial matters should have liberty to insert an amendment of this kind in the Bill. As I say I think it had been already pointed out to the members of the Seanad that the necessary financial provision had been made by Section 32 of the Bill as it left the Dáil. I think in view of that fact, this House is not justified in meeting the Seanad any further in the matter. Accordingly we do not agree with the motion of concurrence which the Minister has proposed.
I would say that with almost everything in Deputy MacEntee's speech I am in agreement. It does seem to be illogical, if it is the position, that the Seanad ought to be able to introduce an amendment which the leader of no Party in this House could introduce and which only could be moved from the Government benches. I agree with Deputy MacEntee in that but I think that to preserve better relations between the two Houses it is very much better to meet the members of the Seanad and point out that to them. I think it is an act of courtesy from one House to the other and I would suggest to the Dáil that they should pass this motion.
