Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1930

Vol. 33 No. 17

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £28,270 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tailte agus Iascaigh agus Seirbhísí airithe atá fé riara na hOifige sin.

That a sum not exceeding £28,270 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, and of certain Services administered by that Office.

Minister for Lands and Fisheries (Mr. Lynch)

Deputies will notice that the title of the Vote this year has been extended to include not only fisheries but Gaeltacht services. That alteration clearly identifies a special responsibility of the Department to examine the problem in regard to the economic development in the Gaeltacht. Its work in that direction is not quite fully reflected in the Estimate itself, as many of the activities originating in the Department—the Gaeltacht Economic Committee is working under the auspices of my chairmanship—are shown on other Votes. Under Sub-head A.— Salaries, Wages and Allowances— there is an increase of £654. That is partly attributable to the normal increments on salaries of the staff and also to the fact that there are two new appointments in the Department, attributable entirely to Gaeltacht services. An increase of £130 under Sub-head B. is also attributable to the greater organising activities relating to the Gaeltacht services. Under Sub-head C. there is a very small reduction. In the next Sub-head there is no change. Under Sub-head E. there is a reduction of £8,470. This is due to the fact that provision is made under a number of the headings for the earlier months of the financial year, as it was intended that the services should thereafter be carried out by the Sea Fisheries Co-Operative Association under the scheme I have previously outlined here. The first directors have been appointed and their names published and the rules of the Association are now ready. They are in draft from for submission to the first meeting of the Association which is summoned for either Wednesday or Thursday next. When these have been approved of by the members of the Association they will be laid on the Table of the House here for discussion. A Bill, of course, will be necessary to enable the society to function. It will be a short Bill. At the same time, the rules will be available and with the Bill the rules can come up for discussion.

A reduction in the fishery services applies to several items. It applies to loans, for instance, which stand at £1,150 as against £5,000 last year; to fishery requisites, £250 as against £1,000 last year; boat-building, nil as against £400 last year; re-conditioning and maintenance, £150 as against £1,400 last year; fishing operations, £1,000 as against £3,000; wages of storekeeper, £75 as against £250. Of course, it is obvious that the Estimate is catering for about three months' fishery operations from the Department's point of view. Subsequent to that, it will be the Fishery Association that will be dealing with many of these matters, and it will be noticed that financial sanction will be obtained here for the expenditure which will be necessary.

Last year I referred to the review of outstanding fishery loans and arrears of loans that had been received from the Department. I said at that time that a scheme that had been at one time outlined to deal with the recasting of loans had been found, after full consideration, not to meet the case. It was too cut and dry, as it were, from the point of view of the times between which loans had been granted. It went from 1916 to 1923. It fixed the dates, and no case outside those dates could be dealt with. I promised last year that we were going to deal with that in another way—that each case would be examined on its merits. Within a few weeks after I had made the promise a Committee was set up. It has been dealing with these cases since then. There were something like 1,000 cases in all, and I understand that about 700 have been pretty well dug into. I think the reports in about 500 are nearly ready. It was not quite so easy as it might appear on the surface, because many matters have to be taken into consideration by this Inter-Departmental Committee.

There is a saving under the head of statistics which stands at £300, as against £500 last year. It is because the Gárda Síochána are utilised now to collect some of these statistics that formerly other persons were employed on. If you look at the Estimate you will see a new item. It appears under the subhead—"Kelp development, etc., £150." I referred last year to the fact that the Department had set up machinery for the organisation of the kelp industry. The main objects are to improve the quality of the kelp produced, and to establish a greater feeling of confidence on the part of the kelp makers, both from the point of view of getting a market and of getting a fair price for their products when they put them up in proper condition. A certain amount of research is being carried out as to the most satisfactory method of preparing kelp, of treating the weed in the different types of burning so as to get the best iodine product. When the kelper comes to sell his kelp he will be able to have the result of the analysis showing the iodine content, and will know that the price he is being paid is the best. This will be a test conducted in my Department. It will show the iodine content of the particular man's kelp, and whether or not he is getting a fair price for his product. It will also, of course, have the advantage when he will compare it with his neighbour's kelp of showing him whether or not he has been burning his kelp in the proper way. If his next door neighbour is getting something more per ton because of the iodine product of the kelp produced by him, he will know that there is something wrong with his own methods. This year it is almost evident that the whole output of kelp will be marketed by the Department on behalf of the kelpers. This will have some advantages. It will enable certain expenses in the way of agency, analysis, selection, storage, and so on, to be considerably lowered. Of course, all that advantage will accrue to the kelpers themselves. It is not, of course, quite possible to forecast as against last year, what the output will be this year, because the chief gathering occurs in the May weed, but basing our estimate on what has happened with the November weed, I believe, as against 3,000 tons collected last year, there will be about 5,000 collected this year. The sum provided here is, of course, very small, but the expenses to be borne by the State are chiefly in connection with research and preliminary organisation. The industry will, we believe, in other respects be self-supporting.

The "et cetera" in that can be taken as referring to Carrigeen moss. That affects also the people on the West coast. It was a subject mentioned by the Gaeltacht Commission. The Department has taken into consideration the possibilities in connection with that industry. Certain examination has been carried on, and we believe there, too, a certain amount can be done. We know, for instance, that in America and in other countries it is something worth while, and there is no reason really why we here should not be at least as good as they are. At any rate, we feel that we should very much improve on the present methods in regard to it.

In connection with the inland fisheries there is very little change in the Estimate as compared with last year. It would be interesting to mention, though, that the Act of 1925 has brought in very considerable revenue to the Board of Conservators that they did not have before. The total revenue of all Boards in the year 1924 was £15,162. In 1928 it was practically double that—£29,700. In 1924, the Boards were able to spend on watching rivers only £13,600. In 1928 the sum spent on watching was £27,173, nearly double that amount. In other words, the chief result of the 1925 Act, as far as inland fisheries was concerned, was to place at the disposal of the Boards of Conservators far more money than they used to have in the sense that rates on valuable fisheries went to the Boards of Conservators instead of going to county councils, as they formerly did. The result has been, of course, that we have nearly doubled the income of every Board of Conservators, and, therefore, they have been able to employ more bailiffs and to get a better type of bailiff to watch the rivers, especially during the spawning season. I might add, of course, that the Gárda Síochána, as portion of their training, get instructions on fishery law, and, through the Chief Superintendent in each county, they are given instructions, especially during the spawning season, to look out for any infringements of the fishery laws. They have done that work extremely well, and it is only fair to them to say that.

Sub-head F. deals with rural industries. You will see there an increase of £6,794. That increase is accounted for by very considerable developments of the rural industries, or proposed development of those industries, which are on hand. Provision is made there, for instance, for the cost of the administration of the central marketing depot. I mentioned that as coming several years, but, in fact, it is now in hand at Beggar's Bush. The establishment of this depot gives effect to a recommendation of the Gaeltacht Commission, and it was adopted by the Government in the White Paper. The scheme which I am putting into operation will go something further than the recommendation of the Gaeltacht Commission. Their report, if I understood it rightly, was that an organisation should be set up as a centre through which the goods of the different little classes, as they were called then, or factories should be marketed. That was very well in its way, but in order to get any real improvement or any real extension of that it was not sufficient. If you want any wide expansion of these little industries in the Gaeltacht there would have to be something more. A great deal of the goods turned out in these industries do not represent the standard of material, workmanship, design or finish that would get the markets, and they cannot be sold to the best advantage. There is very little blame to be cast on the classes for these particular faults, and it does not apply even to a big number of the classes. The extraordinary thing was that in their position of isolation they did so well. By more centralised help we believe the good ones can do a great deal better, and the bad ones can be brought up to the standard of the good ones. Our proposition is that these industries in the Gaeltacht will be worked on a co-operative basis. I will elaborate that a little afterwards.

The instructions necessary to enable the workers to acquire proficiency in turning out work of the highest standard will be arranged for by the Department. It will be useless to contemplate any permanent establishment or any wide expansion of the industries on any other basis than that of good workmanship. I believe it is possible to get that workmanship in the Gaeltacht. If the Department had any doubts about it, it would be useless to attack the problem at all. The Department will enable the workers to get, by a system of loans or otherwise, appliances and machines for use in these industries in their own homes. There is then the question of procuring the raw materials. In the past these classes have nearly all been functioning independently and had to buy as best they could. We propose to buy centrally. We hope to buy better and more cheaply for them so that they will have the raw materials at a lower cost than in the past. Apart from merely acting as places to dispose of the products of these classes the depots will help, with designs, with raw material and will render assistance in the description of goods that are to be made. It will enable goods, when made, to be submitted to the finishing processes that will get them a better market. The arrangements also provide that any article that is sold by the depot will be sold subject to a guarantee. If an article is not found up to the standard it will either be replaced or the money refunded. After investigation we are satisfied that we can safely do that without any loss. Of course, the depot will be registering a trade mark under which the products will be sold. Most of this work has been done already.

The Board of Works is already at work at Beggar's Bush preparing a place for the central depot and a great deal of the preparatory work that will be done afterwards in the depot is under way in my Department. I have already stated that I think the industries will pay their own way. The machinery set up by the Department will go far to counteract the disabilities under which the Gaeltacht labours as compared with urban industrial areas. It will facilitate the obtaining of raw materials and better terms than they would otherwise be able to get. It will undertake the marketing of the finished product. The industry will pay a percentage of the price realised for the goods as a contribution to the central depot. This change in the status and character of the industries will involve certain readjustments of the piece-work rates which have hitherto been customary.

In many places piece-work rates for these goods were extremely low. In other places they were far higher than the industries could bear. We hope to arrange a settlement by which the worker will get a fair return for his or her work—in the case of the cottage industries it is nearly always her work—and at the same time provide more constant employment, due to the fact that we will have a market for more than what was produced in the past. In connection with the instruction the Government will still have to arrange for all the necessary technical instruction, to provide money for the purchase of raw material and provide a marketing organisation. When the goods have been sold the industries will repay all the cost of the material, and pay, for the services of the marketing depot, a percentage of the goods sold. Any profits made will go to increase the income by way of bonus or otherwise of the workers themselves; they will not go to the Government.

The revival of the industry in home-spun and in hand-woven tweeds has been discussed here several times. It has now reached a definite stage at which its further expansion depends almost entirely upon the training of weavers who are competent to produce work of the standard required. The preliminary work was conducted at Ardara, which was at one time a centre of the industry. We trained between 50 and 60 weavers there. I must say that the results in Ardara were not at all satisfactory. The number of weavers capable of turning out work of the required standard has been very small, and there has not been any indication or general disposition to take it up as a trade. The instruction has now been transferred to Kilcar, and there, I am glad to say, there appears to be a better spirit, certainly a far more ready and satisfactory response. Arrangements are also being made to go on from Kilcar to Glencolumbkille, Dunlewey, and to some centres in Connemara and Kerry. I do not expect any difficulty in providing work for a good number of weavers if we get weavers who will produce the required product.

In Sub-head A—Appropriations-in-Aid—there is a decrease of £5,315. Of course, that is due to the fact that it was anticipated that the Department will receive the receipts only from fishery schemes and fishery loans during the earlier months of the year.

Acting-Chairman

The Appropriation-in-Aid as shown on page 220 of the Estimates is £29,375 for 1930-31 against £34,690 for 1929-30, an increase of £5,315. Is that a printer's error?

Mr. Lynch

Yes, it should be a decrease. That is obvious from the figures. The reason for that is that it is only for the earlier months that we will be receiving fishery loans and the results from the fishery schemes. Subsequent to that the Fishery Association will be receiving these, and therefore, while last year £34,000 was budgeted for as being the appropriation-in-aid, this year it is only £29,000.

Mr. Moore

Are we to understand from the Minister that the Fishermen's Association is already in existence and that a meeting of the members is being held to consider the rules?

Mr. Lynch

Yes.

Mr. Moore

Because we have not heard of that Association.

Mr. Lynch

Oh, yes; that is so.

Mr. Moore

I thought that the Minister might have meant simply a meeting of the directors, because I had not heard of the Association up to the present.

Mr. Lynch

It is a meeting of the directors, if you like.

Mr. Derrig

I desire to move the amendment standing in my name— that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. We are very glad to hear that steps are at last being taken to reorganise the fishing industry. The industry, as everybody knows, is in a parlous condition at present. I think it has been stated in one of the official reports that there are only a thousand professional fishermen left in the Free State, and I have noted in the report of the Tariff Commission on the application for a tariff on fish barrels, that out of 300 drifters which find employment in Free State waters only two are registered in the Free State. The "Irish Independent" in a leading article on 3rd January said: "The trade in fish, which ought to be a valuable asset to the nation, is down by £202,401, while at the same time the imports of this commodity increased by £38,295"—that is for last year—"It is somewhat anomalous that this country should be importing fish at the price of £354,452 per annum." We have the position that while our own industry is disorganised and at a low ebb, suffering from post-war depression, bad seasons, lack of equipment, and almost everything that could help to reduce or to extinguish the industry, foreigners are finding ample sustenance and ample profit in fishing in Free State waters. The attention of the Department has frequently been called to the necessity for adequate protection. Only yesterday a Deputy on these benches suggested that at least an extra motor boat should be placed at the disposal of the Civic Guards in the area where trouble has occurred with French trawlers. On several occasions the Minister promised to introduce an Estimate for a second or, if necessary, a third fishery cruiser, but nothing has been done about it. At the same time he promised that more stringent regulations would be made to deal with these foreign poachers, and I think he promised to introduce a Bill to deal with that whole question and to deal with the question of extraterritorial jurisdiction.

So long as these matters of protection and territorial waters are left in their present position, it seems inappropriate even to discuss the question of reorganising the Irish fisheries. At least before a board of businessmen are called in, give them a fair chance; do not come along afterwards saying: "Well, we got the best men that we could; we gave them ample facilities and plenty of powers, and still they have not been able to do any better." We want to be quite sure, and I hope the Board will be quite sure, that when they undertake this work they will be doing so with a feeling that everything possible has been done to make this work which, even in the best circumstances would be extremely slow, costly and difficult, as easy as possible. It is a good thing that some of our prominent businessmen, including our colleague Deputy McDonogh, have been placed upon this Board. With a very wide experience of the fishing industry and of the circumstances in different areas, I am sure, with the assistance of the Department's experts, that they will be able to do the best that can be done in the circumstances.

The Minister frequently said that he did not favour State action. It is satisfactory to find that he has at last come round to believe that the situation is so serious that only by direct State intervention can the fishing industry be saved. It is absolutely useless to talk of Irish capital being invested in the industry until our own Government really take steps to show the public the wealth that lies in our fisheries, and, moreover, until it goes further, and by reasonable experiment and reasonable expenditure, shows that the thing can be made a commercial success.

The great difficulty in my opinion that the Board will be up against is the question of capitalisation. The whole question in this matter is a question of sufficient funds. It was recommended in the Gaeltacht Report that a capital sum of, I think, a quarter of a million should be placed at the disposal of some such body as is now being constituted. I understand that the proposal is to pass a certain amount in the annual Estimate. It would be much better if a definite sum were car-marked, as has been done in the case of the Shannon Board, the Barrow Drainage, and other things. If, from the commencement, the directors are able to tackle this question on a large commercial scale, the work of re-organisation will take a considerable time. It is going to be extremely troublesome and costly. If, this day twelve months, not much progress has been made, except in the actual development of the industry, but if all the foundations have been laid for building up the organisation, which I can foresee is going to be exceedingly troublesome, since this Board is going to take control and responsibility for the catches, and the whole marketing is going to be taken in hands by them, it is going to be an extremely difficult task. It would be fatal if the Board, who have not the opportunities that they should have, and who cannot for a long time decide what actually their expenditure will be, in the opening stages of their work should be held up for lack of finance. There is no use in asking them to undertake this work on a piecemeal scale and to dole out small amounts to them. We must hold the Minister for Finance to what he said in this House on the 2nd May, 1928:—

If a well-thought out scheme were propounded, it might be better to face a period of five, six or seven years during which considerable expenditure could be made to determine whether even with that large expenditure there would be considerable development in the fisheries.

That is the opinion of the Minister for Finance.

It would be interesting to know whether his Department and his officials live up to it. I have an idea that they do not see this development in the way that I think all parties and Deputies would like to see it; that is, an industry on which a really genuine and big effort should be made, and upon which, as the Minister for Finance admitted, perhaps in a moment of enthusiasm —if our Ministers can be said to suffer from that—a well thought-out scheme with considerable expenditure for five or six or seven years, would be really worth the money if we felt that that was necessary, and was going to bring results.

With regard to the Estimate in general, the amount available for the fisheries service has been reduced by £8,470. I do not know why that should be, why we should not grant the amount voted last year, and, in the event of the Board taking over the work of distributing this money, why that could not be done later on. It seems to me not to be a sound excuse to say that the Board will start this work. The Board may not actually be able to get into the work for several months, and I see no reason why the estimates for the fisheries service should be cut down. The Minister referred to these reductions. The amount for boats and gear is only £1,250, and for re-conditioning boats, £150. I do not know how the Minister can expect the House to believe that these amounts are commensurate with what ought to be spent, particularly the £150. If the whole industry is being got under way, that amount is very small, unless the Department have all their boats in a much better condition than we think.

With regard to fisheries protection, there is the objection that the present protection is inadequate, and that the Minister should long ago have made provision for dealing with the protection of fisheries.

As to the inland fisheries, I do not know what State fishery rights mean. They are going to cost £1,000. I do not know whether that means that the State is buying over certain inland fishery rights. If that is so, we should like to have some information about it.

Many Deputies on this side would be glad to see a large expenditure on fish hatcheries. They seem to be confined to a small number of areas, and, in view of the enormous potentialities of the salmon and inland fishing generally, it would perhaps be advisable to increase the amount spent on hatcheries.

With regard to rural industries, I am very pleased to see that steps are being taken to develop them. Unless the industries are developed in a short space of time, there will be actually nobody left in the Gaeltacht to work them, whereas if steps had been taken before now, or could be taken within the next year, to give employment to a large number of young people who would otherwise emigrate, the Department would certainly do immense good for the country. The Minister has not told us what the £12,000 is actually being spent upon in connection with the purchase of raw materials. I should like to know exactly what products are going to be turned out. The practice of the Department in training workers who have been working in these industries in design and in management, so that they can undertake the management of these industries themselves, is a very good one. I hope that the Minister will be able to extend the practice of giving greater technical instruction to those girls in the work of designing and so on.

With regard to the question of vocational instruction, for which some money is made available, there has been no effort made up to the present to get going the continuation schools which were promised for the instruction of young men anxious to take up fishing. I note that there is no provision in the Estimate for minor marine works, and I cannot see any estimate in the Public Works Department for them. Although we are placed at a disadvantage in discussing this question, as we have not the report of the Ports and Harbours Tribunal before us, there is a general feeling, especially in the poorer fishing areas, that a great deal of leeway has to be made up in conditioning the piers and fitting out landing places.

We are glad to hear that the Minister is dealing with loans arrears. There are one thousand cases. He has not told us how many cases have been dealt with, but he says the Committee are working very hard and that there are over one hundred cases under consideration. I wish the Minister could tell us that a certain number of cases had been definitely disposed of. Although we recognise the difficulties of going into each case separately, nevertheless, when a certain number, say, fifty cases, have been dealt with, some general principles should be established which should make it easier to deal with the remainder in a short time.

One other matter I wish to refer to is the question of certain alterations in the inland fisheries. The Minister has promised a Bill to deal with the question of illegalities in connection with the election of Conservators.

Another matter I have frequently urged is the question of opening the fishing season at an earlier date. I am told that the position is that the Minister, so long as he secures a fishing season of not more than 197 days, has power to alter the dates. There is a definite feeling in the country and amongst experts that the later months of the season, such as May or June, are practically worthless, and we have examples where, even at the end of April, fishermen have had to give up fishing. I have an extract from the "Fishing News" dated August 11th, 1928, which is still applicable. It says:—

Some few years ago the salmon season proper—February to May —never paid the men for their expenditure on boats, nets and gear; but the peal season in June and July made up well for the deficit, the boats landing them daily, often in hundreds. Of late the tendency has been for the mature fish to be caught in increasing numbers while the peal diminished rapidly This year has established a new record, only very few peal being taken in occasional ones and twos. As a matter of fact the great majority of the fishermen hauled up their boats early in June, there being no prospect of fish. So far no satisfactory explanation of the phenomenon has been suggested, the oldest and keenest fishermen being mystified.

It is said by those who are anglers that these laws were made about 60 years ago and there is no reason why, if Waterville River is opened on 1st June, the Shannon and other rivers should not be opened on this date. I believe the Minister had an inquiry into this matter of the Blackwater and I would be glad if he would tell us what is the latest information at the disposal of his Department in connection with it. Is it a fact that the time fishing season does not correspond with the season as laid down in the bye-laws, and if that is so and if the fishing season in recent years is quite different to the season as laid down in the bye-laws I would like to ask the Minister whether he would not think it well to give the fishermen an opportunity of getting some advantage by way of starting earlier in the season. There is no doubt that fish come in very early and if it is a natural thing that salmon come in early in January I see no reason at all why the fishing season should not begin when nature says the salmon must be coming up.

Mr. Anthony

Does Deputy Derrig know that if the season were to open at the time he suggests there would be a lot of what is known as unclean fish running. Does he know that at that time there would be a lot of fish that had spawned. If the Deputy knew that I think he would not advocate opening the season earlier.

Mr. Derrig

I do not think there is any foundation for that statement made by Deputy Anthony. The anglers say it is not so.

Mr. Lynch

I would like to know does the Deputy want me to make a general bye-law? The Deputy is right in saying that certain rivers open at certain times, but that I should make a general bye-law, a bye-law to govern the earlier opening of all rivers would be absolutely impossible. Each river has its own time, it seems, because the fish run earlier in some than in others, and each must be governed by the result of a particular inquiry held. I would have to give my decision on the report of the inspector who held an inquiry and the evidence brought before him as to whether or not the fish is running earlier than the date in the bye-law.

Mr. Derrig

Would the Minister be prepared to hold an inquiry about opening the Shannon?

Mr. Lynch

I am prepared to hold an inquiry when an inquiry is sought, but I shall only give a decision when the inspector reports on the result of the evidence given that the fish are running earlier than the bye-law authorised the river to be opened. I shall then, automatically, make a new bye-law to change the time, but if such evidence is not brought forward, I cannot make any change.

Mr. Goulding

In view of the fact that the evidence in the Blackwater case was that the fish were running earlier, why was it that the date was not altered?

Mr. Lynch

I have not the Blackwater case before me at the moment. The raising of that matter would be more properly done, I think, by giving me notice of the question in the ordinary way, but I can assure the Deputy that if the evidence was to that effect, and that the inspector was satisfied that it showed that the fish were running earlier, he would have made a recommendation to me that the time of the bye-law should be changed, and I would automatically make a new bye-law. The evidence must not have been to that effect if the change was not made. The inspector must not have been convinced.

Mr. Derrig

I suggest that the Minister, in his concluding statement, should give us more information with regard to the Blackwater inquiry.

Mr. Lynch

I shall make inquiries certainly.

Mr. Carney

Deputy Derrig, in his speech, expressed the hope that the Board as constituted will resurrect the fishing industry in the Free State. I echo that hope for the reason that we have had a gradual decline in the fishing industry from practically 1830, but there has been a very marked and rapid decline during the last seven or eight years. It is a difficult task for any Minister or any Board that may be constituted to resurrect the almost defunct industry in the Free State. But it does not follow that because it is difficult it should not be tackled in the proper spirit. When we look at the figures before us in this particular Estimate, we discover that the biggest part of the amount is to be devoted to the payment of salaries, allowances and expenses of officials. The fact that the fisheries is a big job for anyone to tackle should warrant that the biggest expenditure possible should be made upon it. Not alone that, but to reestablish the rural industries in the Gaeltacht would be quite a problem in itself, and so much of a problem, as to warrant the expenditure of all the money that the State could devote to that purpose. We discover that out of £47,270 the sum of £25,937 is to be expended in the payment of salaries, allowances and travelling expenses, and the sum of £18,330 is to be expended actually in the betterment of the fishing industry. There is quite a big gap between that amount and——

Mr. Lynch

Might I ask the Deputy to look at the Estimate and to show me any other Estimate in any other Department in which practically the whole amount of the money that has been estimated for is not spent on salaries, wages and allowances?

Mr. Carney

Am I then to whitewash the Minister and to say "your Department is no worse than any other Department in the Free State?" That is not for me to do.

Mr. Lynch

There is no question of whitewashing. Estimates are submitted for the public services. These include salaries for civil servants for every Department including mine.

Mr. Carney

I am to say this—that because the Minister does not spend as much on the salaries and expenses of his Department as, for example, the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Agriculture does, that he is a good Minister or that his Department is a good Department. That is not for me to say. The Minister's colleague, Deputy Sheehy, will use all the honeyed phrases at his command to do that for the Minister. That is not for me to do. I am only pointing out as far as I can what might be done. I have admitted that the Minister has a difficult job but there are certain things that might be done. Most humbly I would like to point them out. I was only drawing a comparison between the amount expended on salaries and expenses and the amount actually devoted to the restoration of the fishing industry. There is also a gap between the amount devoted to rural industries. That amounts to £22,440 and the amount of £25,937 is devoted to the payment of salaries, allowances and travelling expenses, which means that for the sake of having a certain number of officials to dispense the good cheer, we have to pay a bigger sum than is being devoted to rural industries in the particular part of the country called the Gaeltacht that has a population almost on the verge of starvation.

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

If a small or a large number of officials are to have a bigger sum devoted to their payment and to the payment of allowances and expenses than all the people concerned in the rural industries of the Gaeltacht, then it is time that there was some revision made in the particular dispensation of moneys in this State. The Minister, I believe, made a statement in regard to one of these rural industries. That is the homespun industry in Ardara. It is almost two years ago since this matter was referred to in this House by various Deputies. Almost two years ago we had assurances that an inspector was being appointed with a view to the re-establishment of the whole industry of the homespun and handspun manufacture in Donegal. Up to now we have not had very much results from the appointment of that inspector. As far as we have been able to investigate conditions there, we find that the people who are engaged in the industry have not had any benefits accruing from the appointment of inspectors or from the over-lordship, if I may use the term, of the Department in which the Minister exercises control. In the handspun and homespun industries there were to be big improvements. When we complained that the handspun industry was not being catered for, we were told it was impossible to get spinners. At another time it was impossible to get weavers. It was proved to the satisfaction of the Minister that there were sufficient spinners and weavers to do any work that might have been required either by private individuals or the Department of Lands and Fisheries.

Mr. Lynch

Certainly not.

Mr. Cassidy

There were hundreds of spinners and weavers.

Mr. Lynch

Where are they?

Mr. Cassidy

Their names were supplied to the Minister's Department.

Mr. Carney

A list of names was supplied to the Department. The Minister said that in order to help the homespun industry they were prepared to give assistance, financially and otherwise, to the people of Ardara and the surrounding districts; that would include the area down to Glencolumbcille. The local committee in Ardara approached the Department, and had a lot of correspondence. They were prepared to put up a certain proportion of money for the purpose of installing machinery in Ardara for a breaking and carding mill and for the purposes of dyeing. I think the proportion of money to be contributed by the Department would have amounted to £700, but that has not been forthcoming for the last two years. I would just like Deputies to recollect that we have given £3,000 to the motor races in the Phoenix Park. A number of people in cottages in Donegal are still waiting for the Minister to contribute the £700 towards the re-establishment of the industry in Ardara.

Mr. Lynch

Is it in Ardara or Kilcar?

Mr. Carney

Kilcar, Ardara, Glencolumbcille or Killybegs.

Mr. Lynch

Where do you want it for?

Mr. Carney

The promised money is not yet forthcoming. The Minister told the Ardara people that it would be possible to have their wool sent to certain mills in Donegal, where it would be prepared and then returned. Here is a query from the Committee in Ardara: "Can Mr. Lynch give any idea as to the amount expended on mill-spun yarns and the amount expended on the purchase and spinning of local wool? This answer would show if either is receiving the preference." I would like to know the assistance they are getting in Ardara and surrounding districts either for mill-spun or home-spun yarn put into what are called home-spun and handspun tweeds.

Progress reported.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 21st March.