Financial Resolution No. 5—Excise.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

That on and after the 1st day of August, 1930, every person who travels with a mechanically propelled vehicle and goes from place to place, or to other men's houses, carrying to sell or exposing for sale any goods, wares, or merchandise, or exposing samples or patterns of any goods, wares, or merchandise to be afterwards delivered shall be deemed to be a hawker within the meaning of Section 2 of the Hawkers Act, 1888, and that Act shall apply to such persons accordingly, subject to the modification that the duty payable upon an excise licence issued under Section 3 of the said Act to a person to whom the said Act is applied by this Resolution shall be ten pounds, and no such person shall be deemed to be duly licensed under the said Act by reason of his having taken out a licence under the said Act on which a less duty than ten pounds was paid.

The effect of the Resolution, which is subject to the exemptions in the Act of 1888—exemptions which may also be inserted in our section—is simply that the man who with a motor van at present engages in hawking will have to pay an annual tax of £10 where the hawker operating a horse-drawn vehicle will pay, and at present pays, a £2 annual tax.

Mr. Moore

I have no doubt that, on the whole, this will be a very popular tax, but I think that at least one exemption ought to be made. We all know that the fisheries are about to be organised, and that the task which the new Fisheries Bill will impose on the Council to be set up will be to capture the home trade. In connection with that, the Council will be constantly up against this difficulty: that in the average small town shops will not be set up for the purpose of selling fish only and no other goods. The position, therefore, will be that the Council will not be able to create a demand in these places for the sale of fish.

Mr. Blythe

There is an exemption in the Act which applies to any person selling fish, fruit, victuals or coal. Thus, when this Resolution comes into force under the Act, with the exemptions, if necessary, reenacted, it will not apply to a person selling fish, fruit, victuals or coal

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

I take it that the person aimed at under the Resolution is the vendor of second-hand clothes?

Mr. Blythe

Largely.

Mr. O'Connell

But, supposing such a person engages in the sale of fish, fruit, victuals or coal as part of the commodities he has to sell, will he be exempt?

Mr. Blythe

No.

Mr. O'Connell

There is another point that I wish to bring to the Minister's notice. It is quite customary for shopkeepers in different places to go out through the country with delivery vans and sell goods— not to deliver goods already ordered or sold in their own shops, but actually to bring out lorry loads of goods and sell them to the people in the country. I take it they would come under this unless they were selling fish, fruit, victuals or coal?

Mr. Blythe

They would be caught. I may say that there was a suggestion made to which I promised to give some further consideration—that the word "victuals" was a rather extensive word, and that we should make it apply to fish, fruit, milk and coal. So far I have not had that suggestion fully examined.

Professor Alton

And bread.

Mr. Blythe

Yes. It may be that "victuals" is too wide a word. There is no doubt but that the people mentioned by Deputy O'Connell— people who go out with motor vans, not to deliver goods already ordered or purchased in their shops, but to sell goods through the country would be caught under this.

Mr. MacEntee

And meat?

Mr. Blythe

Yes.

Mr. Davin

I entirely approve of the action of the Minister in proposing to impose this new tax. At the same time, I am rather surprised that he has not made an attempt to increase the tax upon travellers operating horse-drawn vehicles. If the Minister is anxious to do away with the obnoxious practice of people going out to the country and selling goods from house to house, a practice which has a very serious effect upon the traders in our small towns, I would like him to say why he has not thought fit, when proposing to impose this new tax on travellers operating mechanically propelled vehicles, to, at the same time, increase the tax on travellers using horse-drawn vehicles?

Mr. Moore

Has the Minister considered that he may possibly affect injuriously the sale of certain Irish goods by the imposition of this tax? I suggest that, in levying a tax like this, some advantage could have been taken of it to force country shopkeepers to stock Irish goods to a larger extent than they do. At present, all over the country, there are individuals who would fain buy Irish goods invariably when making their family purchases, but they find that the local shopkeeper is not able to supply these goods. Very often these people are glad to be able to deal with one of these hawkers who offer for sale such things as homespuns. It seems rather curious that, in proposing to impose this tax, no notice appears to have been taken of that aspect of the trade. If the imposition of this tax were to stop even one traveller from selling, say, Irish woollens, it would be a bad thing for Irish Industry. I think the Minister might very well consider that aspect of the matter before asking the House to agree to the imposition of this new tax.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

I would like to know if this new tax will apply to the individual who goes around from fair to fair, or from one market town to another, selling goods? He does not pull up selling his goods from house to house, but goes along with a load of second-hand goods and sets up his tent or stall in a market place or fair and sells the goods off the stall. A good deal of objection is taken to him by the small shopkeepers in the different towns whose trade, as the result of his operations, is taken away. I would be glad if the Minister would say whether such an individual would be liable to this new tax or not.

Mr. Blythe

The person who goes from market to market—legally established markets—and who does not go from door to door, is not liable. That is a point due for consideration when drafting the section of the Bill.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

I think that class of trader needs to be taxed more than the hawkers.

Mr. Blythe

With reference to Deputy Davin's question with regard to horse-drawn vehicles, I have not had any representations made to me in connection with them.

Professor Alton

Does not the Resolution seem to be rather wide? It seems to cover every commercial traveller.

Mr. Blythe

That is only the general charging. That will be the charging paragraph, but there will have to be a series of paragraphs of exemptions. A person seeking orders, or a dealer in goods, such as a commercial traveller, is exempt.

Mr. Davin

I strongly sympathise with the large number of people I met in the country who are out against this travelling shop system. It is certainly doing untold injury to the traders in the towns who are paying rates and taxes in their localities. The Hawkers Act was drafted in 1888. If a sum of £2 was considered a fair and reasonable tax in 1888, there is a good case in the changed circumstances that have taken place in the intervening period for a reconsideration of that figure.

Progress reported.

The Committee to sit again to-morrow.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 30 Apr 1930