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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Apr 1930

Vol. 34 No. 9

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 40—Local Government and Public Health.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £320,158 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Rialtais Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí, maraon le Deontaisí agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Tógáil Tithe, Deontaisí d'Udaráis Aitiúla agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair, agus Costaisí Oifig Chigire na nOspideul Meabhar-Ghalar.

That a sum not exceeding £320,158 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, including Grants and other expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Government Authorities and Sundry Grants-in-Aid, and the Expenses of the Office of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals.

The total amount of this Estimate is £482,158 compared with last year's Estimate of £463,603, showing a net increase of £18,555. In considering the causes for this increase special attention must be directed to two of the most important sub-heads. In the first place, the treatment of tuberculosis shows an increase of £32,750, but if Deputies will turn to page 146 of the Estimates they will recognise there as a new feature, the inclusion of an amount of £27,750, a figure with which they will have been familiar during the passing of the recent National Health Insurance Act. It consists of the compensation to local authorities given because of the withdrawal of moneys previously available under the National Health Insurance Act of 1911 for sanatorium benefit. It will be noted that this sum would of itself exceed the net increase in the Estimates by £9,195. This sum of £27,750 is in effect a book-keeping transaction between the Estimates for the National Health Insurance Commission and the Estimates you have at present before you. The expenses of medical certification have this year disappeared from the Estimate of the National Health Insurance Commission which shows a net decrease of £29,997. The only other sub-heads to which it is proper to refer in a preliminary review of the difference between this year's and last year's Estimate are the sub-heads concerning housing which, taken together, show a reduction on the previous year of £22,492.

While I will refer more fully to housing at a later stage in my remarks it is well to remember that no direct inference can validly be drawn between the expenditure of one particular year and another, as much may depend on a particularly large sum belonging to some particular scheme falling for payment in one or other year. The proper method of examining housing developments is to take cognisance of the moneys provided in the various Housing Acts since our first Housing Act in 1924. The outstanding feature of interest in these Estimates is that they testify on the face of them to the continued progress in matters concerning the health of the community; the care of mothers and infants; the ascertainment and prevention of physical defects in school children; the feeding of school children; the care of the blind and the treatment of tuberculosis. I feel that those Deputies who give any special attention to these matters will afford a very ungrudging acquiescence with the increased amounts now provided. As I remarked when submitting the Estimates on a former occasion, every penny of this money will bring its certain return many times over in the prevention of needless suffering and in the avoidance of the many kinds of impairment which become chronic in adult life because of neglect, inattention or ignorance during child-birth and infancy.

I would like, however, to give this assurance, that the greatest possible care is taken to ensure that all this money is legally and prudently administered. The accounts of local authorities are rigidly examined by my own audit staff, and the amounts passing from this Vote as recoupment to local authorities are likewise most vigilantly scrutinised. In great part this expenditure is under the experienced supervision of county medical officers of health. When dealing with last year's Estimates I was able to report that county medical officers were then working in Cork, Carlow, Kildare, Louth, Offaly and Westmeath. I am now pleased to be able to state that appointments have been made or are imminent in Donegal, Galway, Meath, Wicklow, Cavan, Limerick, Monaghan and Roscommon. In some counties a considerable advance has already been made in the reorganisation of the public health services. In Cork County much attention has been devoted to school medical inspection, treatment of tuberculosis and inspection of midwives. A system of central meat inspection has also been initiated. In Kildare County the medical inspection of school children is being systematically carried out by the county medical officer of health and his assistant. Provision is being made for the segregation of advanced cases of tuberculosis in an institution provided locally, while the systematic inspection of midwives is being carried out under the supervision of the country medical officer by the public health nurses. In Louth County the work is proceeding on similar lines. In this county the striking effect of immunisation against diphtheria is noted in the report for 1929 of the county medical officer of health. The number of cases of diphtheria in Dundalk urban district for the year 1928 was returned as 84. The immunisation campaign conducted by Dr. Musgrave commenced in November of that year and 500 children were inoculated with three doses of toxoid anti-toxin before the end of December, 500 more in the spring of 1929, and another 500 in the autumn, making a total of 1,500 children protected against the disease in that year. The number of cases of diphtheria in Dundalk urban district for the year 1929 was recorded as only 38, a decrease of almost 55 per cent. on the preceding year. Immunisation schemes have also been initiated in the county borough and county of Cork. The schemes are popular and are largely availed of. From July to December, 1929, the number of children immunised in Cork County Borough was 1,600, and in Cork County 1,500. County medical officers of health and school medical officers are unanimous in paying tribute to the cordial co-operation of the clergy and school teachers.

The teachers are giving their services in connection with school inspection, calling attention to pupils needing special attention, and in some places helping to weigh the children and fill the school cards.

The Department has long been concerned as to a means of extending pathological aids for the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of disease. I am glad to be in a position to announce that the Executive Committee of the Rockefeller Foundation to whom we are already much indebted for practical assistance have generously offered me a sum of £21.000 towards the construction and equipment of a diagnostic laboratory in Dublin. They will also contribute, as may be necessary, towards completing the training of any laboratory staff required. I have had some preliminary conversations with the Minister for Finance on the matter and am hopeful that the project will develop successfully without any burden of consequence on the public funds. It will be of very great assistance to the county medical officers of health, particularly in the neighbourhood of Dublin, when we have this diagnostic institution in full working order. It will be very necessary to have an institution like it when we come actually to put into operation the legislation that we propose introducing dealing with the question of pure milk supply.

Medical treatment of school children is in operation in the four county boroughs, in Clonmel, and in Counties Cork, Kildare, Louth, Offaly, and schemes are being formulated in the remaining counties where county medical officers of health have been appointed. The records for the past year indicate steady progress, although medical treatment falls short of the completeness that it is hoped to achieve. Generally speaking, it can be said that inspection revealed a high rate of decaying teeth, enlarged tonsils and adenoids and defective vision, while all forms of tubercular deformities and conditions of crippledom were fewer than anticipated. The commonest physical defect proved to be dental caries, which was found in over 55 per cent. of the total children examined.

The percentages in the particular districts are as follow:—Dublin County Borough, 65; Cork County Borough, 58; County Kildare, 54; County Louth, 51; County Cork, 26.7; and County Offaly, 60. That is the percentage of total children examined who were found to be suffering from dental caries. Enlarged tonsils and adenoids were found in 16 per cent. of the total children examined. Medical inspection revealed that 11 per cent. of the total number of children examined were in need of the services of an ophthalmic surgeon.

On the general question of child welfare, there has been an expansion in this service during the past year. Payments from the grant for the current year will amount to about £20,700. The infantile mortality for the year 1928 was the lowest recorded in this country for any year, with the exception of 1923. being at the rate of 68 per 1,000 births. For the urban areas, the rate was 90.75 per 1,000 births, and for the rural areas 55.75 per 1,000 births. For the preceding year, the rates were, for the Free State, 71 per 1,000 births; for urban areas, 98.98 per 1,000 births; for rural areas, 56.08 per 1,000 births. The average rate for the decennial period 1918-1927 was 73 per 1,000 births. In Dublin County Borough, the rate of mortality among infants was 102 per 1,000 births, or 21 less than in 1927, and 22 less than the average rate for the quinquennial period 1923-1927, although in itself rather high.

During the last financial year School Meals Schemes were established in Drogheda, Letterkenny and Wicklow Urban Districts. Schemes are now in operation in 32 urban districts, and in three county boroughs. These areas represent over 75 per cent. of the total urban population of the country. In Dublin County Borough, meals were supplied in the financial year ending 31st March, 1929, to a daily average number of children of 6,725, at a total cost of £10,856.

On the subject of general administration, the county boards of health and public assistance have now been in operation for a number of years, and in order to enable them to get in proper perspective their general work and to assist them in dealing with the general administration of the work, which is pretty complex, we propose to hold a conference in July of this year, in Dublin, to which we have invited members of the county boards of health, officials, and others interested in the general work of the boards of health and public social services generally. The Conference will last a couple of days, and we hope by bringing the members together, by getting an exchange of ideas, that it will help them in the administration of their work and give them a unified outlook on their general problems. The subjects which we hope to discuss at this Conference will deal with the despatch of business at meetings of boards of health and public assistance; the county medical officer of health and his functions; the health of the school child; the improvement of county homes; general rural health problems; the welfare of children in the care of the public assistance authorities, and such other matters as between this and the Conference may be brought to our attention as matters that may be usefully discussed. I think it should be of great assistance in the general work of the boards of health.

I referred last year to the progress of rate collection. This was well maintained in the financial year that has just closed. In 1928-29, the percentage of warrants for that year collected within the year was 80.5, so that 19.5 per cent. of the total warrants was uncollected in March, 1929. At the end of the financial year, 1929-30, the percentage collected was 86.4, so that there was an improvement of about 6 per cent. in the collection, or the amount outstanding last year was only two-thirds of that outstanding the year before. This is rather satisfactory, but we feel that much greater improvement can still be effected if a general effort be made to collect the rates earlier in the year. Pressure is being brought to bear upon counties to get that done. It is desirable that it should be done, as in many counties the public services still continue to be financed to a pretty fair extent by means of overdrafts.

The amount of county overdrafts on the 31st March, 1930, was £137,000. This compares well with £172,000 for the year ended 31st March, 1929. One feature of the over-draft system was reflected in the tendency of local bodies to under-estimate their requirements and to continue to expend in excess of the amounts provided. However, the improvement is found to be satisfactory, and there is a general prospect in the way in which local bodies are addressing themselves to this matter of rate collection that the situation will improve, and improve rapidly, so that we may very shortly hope to get to the position that the total warrants will be collected by the end of the financial year.

The particular changes effected in housing policy during the present financial year were (1) the passing into law of the Housing Act, 1929; (2) the opening of the Local Loans Fund for the making of advances to urban authorities for the erection of houses under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts. Under the Housing Acts, 1924 to 1929, the amount of £1,350,000 was provided for the making of grants to private persons, to public utility societies, and to local authorities for the erection of houses. Of that entire sum £1,276,889 was allotted up to 1st April, as follows: to private persons, £831,016, representing 12,293 houses; to public utility societies, £84,985, representing 922 houses, and to local authorities £360,888, representing 4,615 houses. The balance un-allocated on 1st April was £73,110.

Of the 13,215 houses erected and being erected by private persons and public utility societies, 10,874 have been certified as completed: of the 4,615 houses approved for building by local authorities, 3,900, approximately, have been completed; of the 13,215 approved for erection by private persons and public utility societies, 9,151, or 69 per cent., are in rural areas. It may be of interest to show the counties in which the greater number were built. Cork County comes first with 1,147 houses, Mayo next with 1,134, Galway 844 houses, Dublin 773 houses, Kerry 706 houses. The counties in which the smaller number of houses have been built, working backwards, are: Carlow, which is the lowest, 6 houses; Kildare, 28; Offaly, 44; Waterford, 67; Kilkenny, 73, and Wicklow, 79. These figures will be of interest when we see that private persons, in rural areas in Mayo, built 1,134 during the last few years as against six in the County Carlow. In the county boroughs 1,997 houses are being built by private persons and public utility societies, of which 90 are being built in Cork County Borough, 1,658 in Dublin, 95 in Waterford and 154 in Limerick.

In the urban districts 1,409 houses are being built by private persons and public utility societies, and 166 houses are being built in towns with Town Commissioners. The total number of houses in respect of which grants have been allocated to private persons and public utility societies is 13,215, being an increase of 1,960 during the year ending 31st March, 1930. In all there are 27 public utility societies carrying out operations. As I say, advances from the Local Loans Fund have been made available during the year for the erection of houses by urban authorities. These are repayable over a period of 35 years at 5¾ per cent. interest under certain general conditions. We were able to report, that as a result of making the local loans available to local authorities, there was a very definite move on the part of the local authorities to build houses. At present, of the total number of 93 local authorities, including Town Commissioners, 27 local authorities are in the position that they have acquired sites and have had plans approved for the erection of 1,591 houses. In the case of another 22 local authorities they are acquiring sites, and plans are being prepared for 363 houses. During the last couple of months we have had a census taken by the local authorities of the total number of houses which they considered required to be built, in order to solve the working class problem in their area. On the survey, as carried out by the local authorities themselves, and the estimates furnished, we find that about 43,000 houses are, in the opinion of the local authorities, necessary.

I found it desirable to send an inspecting group, consisting of an architect, or an architect with a medical inspector, to examine the situation in the light of the figures submitted by the local authorities, with a view to satisfying ourselves as to the general reliance that could be placed on the figures submitted by the local authorities. I do not mean that we doubted the bona fides of the local authorities in submitting their figures, but we felt it was well to review their figures by expert technical men. Inspection of this particular kind was carried out in 23 districts out of 93, and in these 23 districts the number of houses estimated as required by local authorities was 6,738. The number estimated by the inspectors was 4,776. Thus it would appear that we might take 30 per cent. off the figure of 43,000 houses, and we are fairly sure that if 30,000 houses were built in these urban districts the position would be very satisfactory from the general housing point of view. As I say, the opening of the Local Loans Fund to the local authorities has brought about a speeding-up in the preparation of plans and the facing of the housing requirements in these districts by a large number of local authorities. The disposition in the local authorities is pretty satisfactory, although there are cases of local authorities making no attempt to deal with the housing problem that they know very definitely exists in their areas, and we will have to consider in time what steps require to be taken with regard to these local authorities.

The whole question of roads and the question of efficiency in the methods of the work itself, and of improving the organisation in the area of the road authorities, has continued to engage the unremitting attention of the Department. With the exception of a few counties there is no serious difficulty between the Department and the road authorities and, even in these counties, the difficulties have very largely disappeared. Taking the counties as a whole they have shown keen realisation of their road needs and desire to have, in the solution of their difficulties, the assistance which the Department can, and is always willing to, afford. So far as grants for the coming year are concerned we are for the present, allocating £700,000 towards the upkeep and improvement of roads. Whether any larger sum can be allocated will depend upon the revenue as well as upon the rate of expenditure in respect of new grants and commitments on foot of existing schemes. All our grants have been made in anticipation of revenue so that at the beginning of each financial year we have commitments to meet apart from new grants. These commitments of old grants at present amount to about £345,000. There is due to the Exchequer under the Old Road Fund Advances at present the sum of £640,000.

For the year 1927-28, the year in which the grant towards the upkeep of main roads was instituted, 1928-29 and 1929-30 we gave as an upkeep grant 50 per cent. of the cost of repair of main roads which were trunk roads, and 30 per cent. of the cost of those which were link roads. We found that this had two unsatisfactory aspects—one, a tendency to neglect link roads, the other, an involved and onerous amount of account keeping in the books of the county councils. A man employed on a trunk, link and county road in the one week had to have his wages apportioned to three different accounts, and, in some counties, entered on three separate pay-sheets. Accordingly, the position was examined, and it was decided to fix a flat rate for all main roads, whether trunk roads or link roads. One disadvantage in this is that, in future, the county council accounts will not show the expenditure as between trunk and link roads. It was felt, however, that with the data of the three years available the balance of advantage was in fixing a flat rate. This rate for 1930-31 is 40 per cent. of the cost of the repair of all main roads, and represents the proportion which the grant towards upkeep of main roads allocated in the past three years bore to the expenditure on these roads. The fixing of a flat rate has been welcomed by the county councils generally and the county surveyors as an improvement on the former basis, and, judging by the increased sums voted for the repair of main roads, leeway is being made up in regard to the link roads. The grant towards upkeep of main roads, which was about £200,000 when instituted, reached £300,000 in 1929-30, and will be nearly £340,000 for the coming year.

On the general question as to the amount of money being spent by local authorities, that is on general upkeep and repair only, the Deputies may be interested to have the figures, say, for the last three years. I will give the actual figures for 1927-28, and the estimated figures for the year 1928-29, and the year 1929-30. The gross amount spent in the year 1927-28 was £1,208,058, of which £198,589 was a grant, and the amount falling on the rates was £1,009,469. The gross amount in 1928-29 had increased to £1,284,360. The gross amount had increased in the year 1929-30 to £1,363,510. The grant in the year 1928-29 was £210,330, and in the year 1929-30 was £308,549. I have said it is increasing this year to £340,000. The total amount falling on the rates in the year 1928-29 was £1,074,030. This amount had decreased by about £20,000 in the year ending March, 1930, the net amount falling on the rates in that year being £1,054,961. For the current year the gross amount is £1,475,955, the net amount falling on the rates being £1,140,147. I quoted a figure last year as being the percentage increase over 1913-14 that local authorities were spending on their roads. I think I said that there was a difficulty in finding out exactly what local authorities spent on their roads in the year 1913-14, that certain loan charges might have been taken into consideration in the figure that was taken as a basis for the figure I gave last year. The figure I quoted last year as being the percentage increase last year has gone out of my head at the moment, but the estimated expenditure by local authorities this year when compared with 1913-14 shows an increase of 80 per cent. When we say that we have to remember, however, that there is an increased agricultural grant paid to local authorities since then. The average monthly employment on roads during the past eleven months on direct labour has been about 13,000 men; a high proportion of these men are employed on the maintenance of main roads.

The present system of carrying out engineering work in counties has grown up on somewhat indefinite lines, or rather upon lines which did not take into account the possibility of substantial savings in salaries and travelling expenses and which omitted altogether a consideration of the position of the chief engineering officer of the county—viz., the county surveyor. We have the position in which the twenty-seven county councils between them employ 30 county surveyors, 128 whole-time assistant surveyors, 10 part-time assistant surveyors, and I find that there are 31 boards of health and public assistance who administer between them practically the same territory as the county councils and employ upwards of 100 engineers or clerks of works. Several of the officers employed by boards of health and public assistance are already assistant county surveyors, but there are only two county surveyors employed by those boards —South Kerry and Limerick.

The result is there is a very considerable amount of overlapping, a very considerable want of co-ordination, and I have come to the conclusion that as we get an opportunity of reorganising in different counties we have to arrive at a position in which the county surveyor will be the chief engineering officer in the county. We are getting at present county surveyors appointed by the Local Appointments Commission. They are first class, all-round engineers. From the point of view of general benefit to the country alone, it would be very wrong that men with the possibilities of these men should get into the groove of simply being roads men and would be denied, simply because they were kept away from the work, the possibility of developing generally on the engineering side. If we had the county surveyor in the position of the chief engineering officer of the county, then he would be responsible for repairs to cottages, he would be responsible for waterworks schemes and sewerage schemes, not necessarily the person who would draw the plans in connection with big waterworks or sewerage schemes, but the person who would advise the local body in charge as to the type of the particular consulting engineer that would be brought in, and generally would be responsible for the administration of these services when they had been set up. However, the present position is that the county surveyor is simply responsible for his roads. The assistant county surveyors are simply responsible for roads, whereas they could, being men also who are selected through the Local Appointments Commissioners and men of general all-round engineering capacity, under the county surveyor as chief engineering officer, be responsible for all the engineering works in their sub-area. The matter has been taken up, I think, by three county councils at the present moment where circumstances are such as would make it possible to carry out all the necessary reorganisation by appointing a county surveyor who will be in the position of being the chief engineering officer of the county. Deputy Carey says, I think, that it would be impossible for the county surveyor to do all this. He ought not to judge by the position of Cork, which is very different.

What about Limerick?

I think the county surveyor in Limerick would see nothing very difficult in the matter.

He could do the two jobs.

I want to explain the policy of the Department at the present moment and our approach to this matter. I think if Deputies will consider it they will see that we are working upon proper lines. It would be a tremendous thing for the county if we had the fabric of engineering power scattered through the country under our county surveyors not only in the handling of the work of the county councils and the boards of health, but in other respects. The reaction on the general mind of the country through proper co-ordination of the engineering services under one man would be very great educationally. The value of the work that will be carried on under the county medical officer of health scheme is going to have an inductive educational effect. I think we would have as valuable an inductive educational effect arising out of a scheme operating under properly qualified engineering officers throughout the country. It would, in our opinion, bring about much more satisfactory work to the nation and effect great economics. and would cut out a lot of the very poor and questionable work that is being done at the present moment by a body of officers scattered through the country, principally under the boards of health. I think these are the only matters that I want to bring before the notice of Deputies.

I move: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration." I was prompted to put down this motion by a recent utterance of the Minister for Local Government in the debate on either the Vote on Account or the Central Fund Bill that it was not the intention of his Department to endeavour to do anything in the near future so far as rural housing was concerned. I am wondering what prompted the Minister to arrive at that decision. His inspectors are certainly very active all over the country, and I think it is apparent to them that housing for the really poor in rural areas is as much required as it is in urban centres. When I speak of rural housing, I do not altogether mean housing in the countryside. There are large villages and small towns at the moment which have no power to proceed with housing schemes, and these villages and small towns are deteriorating rapidly. The housing shortage has become very acute within recent years.

The Minister has told us that 69 per cent. of the houses that have been erected have been built in rural areas. I would remind the Minister that the people for whom these houses were built are in a great many cases people who could have afforded to build the houses themselves. When those housing grants were first instituted one thought that it was the intention of the Minister to have them applied to the building of houses for the working classes all over the country. I know quite well that at the beginning there was a sort of intention that these housing grants should initiate employment which was badly needed. I am prepared to believe that there is something in that. At the same time, when one hears a definite statement made by the Minister who is responsible for the public health and especially for the housing of the people, that he does not intend to approach the Minister for Finance with a view to having him do something for housing in rural areas, one is prompted to put down a motion of this kind in order to draw the attention of the House and of the country generally to the Minister's policy in this direction.

In the constituency that I represent there are some large villages and one town at least, the town of Gorey. That town has a population of about 3,000 and they are unable to do anything so far as housing is concerned. It is places like that that are suffering through the Minister's want of action. Anybody passing through these places occasionally will find that housing is needed there just as much as it is in the urban area. I am prepared to admit that a great deal has been done in so far as urban housing is concerned and that a serious effort was made during the past twelve months when local loans were made available to local authorities and they were put in a position to build houses that could be let at something approaching an economic rent; but the rent that is put on, even with the advances from the Local Loans Fund for 35 years, is not at all commensurate with the position of the unskilled worker, and one wonders if the Minister would be prepared to make further representations to the Minister for Finance with a view to getting cheaper money than he has been giving for the past twelve months. When it was decided by the Minister for Finance to permit money being released from the Local Loans Fund the bank rate stood at something like seven per cent. The bank rate to-day is 4½ per cent. and I think we are entitled to take that into consideration and to expect that owing to the easing of the money market the rate which the local authorities are charged for moneys from the Local Loans Fund should be reduced. Taking a sum in simple proportion, if the bank rate was 7 per cent. then and 4½ per cent. now, it would reduce the rent of a house that would be built at about £250 by something like 1s. 9d. per week. That is a relief that would be welcome all over the country.

What would give the relief?

The bank rate was 7 per cent. when the Minister for Finance decided to release the Local Loans Fund. To-day it is 4½ per cent. If the rate to local authorities was reduced accordingly it would be a relief of about 1/9 a week in the rent of a house that cost about £250 to build. In the Wexford urban area they built houses quite recently. They were built under the conditions of the Local Loans Fund. The annuity charged was £6 13s. 4d. per £100. These houses are let at 6/6 per week, which covers all charges. We feel that that is too dear, that we are not catering for the people we would like to cater for. We want a house much cheaper than that for the unskilled worker. I think the Minister will admit that if a man has, as he has in a great many cases in some urban areas, only 30/- to £2 a week, and if he has to take 6/6 out of that for rent it leaves him in a very miserable position for the rest of the week. I do think that the Minister should make strong representations to the Minister for Finance, in view of the decrease in the bank rate, to have a review of the whole situation in so far as that matter is concerned.

A thing that I asked the Minister to do some time ago was to endeavour to get into touch with people in this country who are quarrying slates. Unfortunately, at the moment it would be uneconomic to use Irish slates on a great many of the houses that are being built. We all regret that; I certainly regret it, and I have always been an advocate of Irish manufacture; but we found in the case of a bungalow, where the area of roof is rather large, that it would mean a difference of 10d. or 1/- in the rent to use Irish slates as against asbestos slating, and that is a bit of a problem for us. I do believe that if the Minister for Local Government were to get into touch with the slate quarry owners and endeavour to obtain an agreement with them whereby a general supply of slates would be forthcoming for all urban authorities, if he were to go into the matter, find out what the needs of the urban authorities are, and buy in a large way, that the problem would almost entirely disappear. We all know that the ordinary slate forms a better roof than the asbestos slate, but, as I say, the position is uneconomic, and something ought to be done by the Minister to get into touch with these people with a view to having the problem solved.

The Minister has referred to the county medical officers, and I am wondering when he is going to use the powers that he received under the 1925 Act to insist on county councils or county boards of health, as the case may be, appointing these medical officers. I have always been an advocate of the appointment of county medical officers. On three or four occasions the Wexford County Council turned down such a proposal, but quite recently we happened to get it passed by one or two votes. A notice of motion was handed in to rescind that, but at the last meeting it was defeated. We have arrived at the stage where the majority in County Wexford wants a county medical officer, and I do not think that the Minister should allow this thing to tarry, as it has been doing since 1925, because we know that the services of this county medical officer are badly needed in the various counties in the Free State. In my opinion, the most important function he has is school inspection. In a great many cases, as we know, children's health has been neglected, with the result that we have had young men and young women going to early graves. Some people would perhaps resent the inspection of their children in school by a county medical officer, but we know that it is the ignorance of the people of the diseases of their children that was responsible for a great many of the untimely deaths we had. I would urge upon the Minister to set into operation immediately the provisions of the 1925 Act, under which, if necessary, he can mandamus the county council and make them appoint this county medical officer.

A thing has happened in Wexford which I am certain would not have happened if a county medical officer had been appointed. The town of Wexford has a population of 12,000, and within the last eighteen months the county board of health have taken away the fever hospital from the town. I feel certain that if there were a county medical officer of health there he would not have consented to that. Here we have a population of 12,000, and the County Fever Hospital has been transferred to New Ross, simply because the county board of health would not expend the sum of £1,000 to keep it in order. New Ross is twenty-three miles from the town of Wexford. It is almost in the extreme North East of the county. South of Wexford town to Carnsore Point, there is another twelve or thirteen miles, and we can imagine what a fever patient will go through if he or she has to be brought from Carnsore Point to New Ross, a distance of thirtyfive miles. I think the Minister will agree with me that his Department should never have permitted the county board of health to make that transfer. Personally, I believe that so far as fever is concerned, there ought to be a hospital in each of the four towns in the County Wexford. I do not need to have any medical knowledge to know that fever always carries a high temperature, and that a person who has to be brought the distance required in the present conditions in Wexford undergoes a great danger. I do hope that the Minister will attend to this matter, and also that he will see to it that a county medical officer for Wexford is appointed at once.

Another matter that is engaging the attention of urban areas at the moment is the question of putting into operation by-laws in so far as slaughter-houses and the sale of meat are concerned. Both of these are very important matters, but to attend to them properly it is necessary. in my opinion, to have a fulltime officer. To many of the small towns that would certainly mean an expenditure for which I am afraid they are not prepared at the moment. I am not saying that it should not be done; as a matter of fact, I have said already that I am very much in favour of it, and in my own town of Wexford we are at the moment preparing by-laws to put into operation. But I suggest that to do it properly there must be a whole-time officer. If you are to have a veterinary surgeon as a whole-time officer, he must have a decent salary, and as the rural population purchase meat in the towns where such officers would be operating, I think it would be only fair that the Minister should take powers to himself as soon as possible to make county councils or county boards of health pay some contribution towards the maintenance of these officers in urban areas. I obtained figures of the amount of meat that is purchased in Wexford by people living outside the town, and I found that this represents forty-two per cent. Surely, if an urban area takes steps to prevent bad meat being sold, and if forty-two per cent. of the meat is purchased by the rural population, the county health boards or the county councils ought to be made to pay some contribution towards the maintenance of the officers who would carry out this work, and I do hope that the Minister will go seriously into this matter.

The Minister also referred to the poor rate and to the improvement in its collection. Certainly the position, so far as poor rate collectors is concerned, has improved within the last couple of years, but to my mind there is too much overlapping in regard to the poor rate. Take the position of an urban area. The county council makes a demand on the urban area, which has to appoint a collector to collect the rates for the county council. What I think ought to be done—and I would seriously recommend the Minister to consider it and to carry it into operation— would be that the county council should collect its own rates in the urban areas—perhaps not in the boroughs, where they have a different proposition—as well as in the county council area. From time to time there is friction, though not perhaps serious friction, between urban authorities and county councils with regard to the poor rate collection. There are administrative charges and various things in connection with the collection as far as an urban area is concerned which would be dispensed with if the collection were made direct by the county council, and I seriously suggest to the Minister that he should consider that.

The Minister has also suggested that in the near future the county surveyor ought to be appointed as a county engineer, as he described it. Whilst that might be all right with regard to small places that would be under the control of town commissioners, who would be unable to appoint their own surveyors, I doubt very much if it would be practicable where large or fairly large urban centres were concerned. I believe you would have a conflict between the borough surveyor and the county surveyor, because while a county surveyor might have certain theories so far as carrying out work in an urban area is concerned, in my opinion he must also have the practice, because when a man is working in a rural area for some time he acquires a certain outlook which is altogether different from that which he would acquire in his application to town affairs, and I do not agree with the Minister that it would be judicious to do this indiscriminately. There is certainly something in the Minister's point. Another thing is that the county surveyor would be entirely under the control of the county council, and I would not like to see a county council controlling an officer who would be called upon to apply himself to sewerage, waterworks, and things of that kind in a town, because I do not believe we would get the best results.

I have in my mind the position which prevails to-day with regard to the upkeep of main roads in boroughs, and I know from experience that trunk roads in urban areas are not getting from the county council the attention that they should get.

What happens when an estimate is submitted at the beginning of the financial year by the county surveyor? They examine the position so far as the main roads in urban areas are concerned—I am speaking now for County Wexford—the county surveyor puts down a certain amount for urban roads, and someone from a rural area, who is a mad economist, without having any regard for efficiency, proposes that the estimate be reduced by 20 per cent., and even by 40 or 50 per cent. That is done indiscriminately, without having any regard whatever to the amount of money required in the urban area. With all respect, I submit that you must have better roads in the towns than in the rural areas. There is the question of footpaths and channel ways on the main roads to be considered and to which the county councils pay no regard. Having that in mind, I am prompted to condemn the system, which the Minister suggests he is going to bring into operation in the near future, so far as the county surveyor or county engineer is concerned. Before that is done I believe there should be a consultation with the various urban authorities.

I quite see that there could be at any time an extension to urban areas where the urban council was satisfied, but my proposal at present is simply to bring in the county engineering services of the county councils and the board of health. That is a development that I believe will naturally take place, but it is not proposed now.

I understood by the Minister's proposal that it would not be mandatory on the urban areas, but that the advice would be there if required.

No, but I believe it would grow.

I hope he will leave it there. The Minister dealt with the roads, and told us how the amount of money available this year was spent, and the system by which the road grants are advanced to the county councils. As far as maintenance is concerned, the amount given by the Department is fairly liberal, but there is one aspect of the situation which has been discussed by Wexford County Council, and that is where, if a county council decides that a road should be reconstructed, they lose any grant for maintenance or anything else. We have asked time and time again when we were about to reconstruct a road that we should be permitted to take the maintenance grant into consideration. After all, if the road was not reconstructed the maintenance grant would be paid. If a county council has sufficient foresight to procure money to reconstruct a road, I think, at least, the Minister should permit the maintenance grant to be taken into account. That is only reasonable. Say that a county council decides to go to a bank to procure £4,000, £5,000 or £6,000 to reconstruct a road, I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that the Minister should permit that the maintenance grant which is not required for the road, should be taken into consideration, for interest charges and things of that kind. In some cases this is only preventing county councils from borrowing considerable sums of money to reconstruct roads, and I would ask the Minister to consider that aspect of the matter.

There is another matter that I would like the Minister to go into, as I do not know what is the exact position at present. I refer to the application of the public health laws to places of entertainment. I know that urban authorities have power to deal with theatres and cinemas, but recently we have had travelling shows in tents. I have one particular case in mind where one of these shows stays in town for four or five weeks. As far as we have been able to find out the public health authorities have no power, or very little, to go into and to examine that place. I would like the Minister to go into the matter, and to find out what are the powers of the local authorities in the matter. I think they should have a great deal more power than they have at present. It also strikes me as being very unfair to shopkeepers and people in urban areas to permit owners of shows to come into a field in a town, and to keep their entertainment there, as I have known them to do, for a month or six weeks, and to pay no rates whatever. The valuation of the field is very low.

It is unfair to shopkeepers and to others who have to make a livelihood in the town, even to the ordinary householders, and to proprietors of theatres, who give a good deal of employment, that these travelling shows should be permitted to come into a town, from the other side of the Channel, and to stay there, as they have done on many occasions, for five or six weeks, without making any contribution to the rates. I believe the Minister should look into the matter, to ascertain if there is any way by which some rates could be levied on such people, as they absolutely fleece the public. As a matter of fact, I go so far as to say that the public authorities should be in a position to say to such people: "You can stay for a week or a fortnight, but you will not be permitted to stay any longer." Certain people on the road have a sort of prize scheme for which they sell tickets, and I know one town where they took £3,000. That is a very serious matter for shopkeepers and others, and I would ask the Minister to look into the matter. It is a problem that should be tackled, as I believe local authorities should be permitted to levy rates on these shows, in the interests of the public.

Is the Deputy referring to shows, circuses and merry-go-rounds?

A circus only stays a night in a town, but I have in mind a certain touring company—I dare say other people know it—which comes to a town and stays for five or six weeks in a field, the valuation of which is only about £2. Of course. the owner of the field pays rates, but I think local authorities should have power to levy rates on the owner of a show who takes a couple of thousand pounds out of the town in a few weeks.

I hope the Deputy understands that, in moving to send back the Estimates, he is moving to do that on grounds that have nothing at all to do with the Minister for Local Government.

I stated that my principal reason for moving to send the Estimate back was prompted by the fact that the Minister stated definitely that he was not prepared to do anything for rural housing.

The only thing I see you can do is to open the Local Loans Fund for rural housing. With regard to the Acts that are there at present, if the local public health authorities build houses in Gorey they can get the grants available. The only thing that they cannot get are local loans.

If that is all the Minister has to offer it is useless.

The Deputy can attack the Minister for Finance on the question of local loans, and I will support the Minister for Finance in replying to that case.

In regard to this Estimate, the total of which amounts to close on half a million pounds, I note that as regards several items in it increases are proposed this year. Instead of complaining about these increases, I would like to say that, generally speaking, we approve of them, for they are in relation to matters that we think are of particular concern to the health and general welfare of the people of the State. As the Minister has stated, there is an increase of £32,750 for the treatment of tuberculosis. Anybody who knows the condition of the country and has studied the widespread nature of tuberculosis here, would not, I think, find fault with that increase. It is probably as large an increase in one year as might be justified, but the widespread nature of the disease is such that, within reason, any amount spent by the Ministry and by local authorities to eradicate the disease would certainly have our approval. We might make similar remarks with regard to the increased amount set down for child welfare. Personally, I would go so far as to say that, if possible, a greater effort ought to be made to get more money for that purpose and to induce local authorities to take up that subject and develop it more rapidly than they are doing. The same remarks also apply to the increase proposed for medical treatment of school children.

On previous occasions, when this Vote and similar matters were being discussed here, I and others on these benches have said that we were of opinion that the condition of the education of the people—and in many cases also I think it might be said of public representatives and members of local authorities—on this question of public health was very backward. A good deal requires to be done in the way of advancing the education of the people on public health matters and as to the necessity for improving public amenities throughout the country in the smaller towns and villages in particular. We are not at all as advanced in these matters, in practice or in education, as we ought to be. The more the matter is discussed here— the more publicity it gets in the Press and the more it is brought to the attention of the local authorities —the greater the advance that will be made. For these reasons, I am glad that there is an increase under these particular headings. With regard to some of them, at any rate, I would not, and our Party would not, in general complain if the increases were even greater.

Taking the total figure of the Vote, I note that there has been an increase in the number of staff by four persons, with accordingly an increase in salaries—not very great— of roughly in or about £500. I do not think that my friends on these benches would complain in general about an increase in staff if they were satisfied that we were getting increased efficiency and increased work. Perhaps the Minister would be able to enlighten us as to the necessity for that increase in staff and the increase in expenditure in accordance therewith. Without some explanation, I do not think that anything we can see happening in the country with regard to the administration of this Department warrants the increase. However, I speak subject to further information being forthcoming, but it is, I think, the opinion of many that this particular staff, with the process of reduction that has been in operation for a number of years, might carry on a little further before any occasion would arise for an increase.

There is one subject and a very important subject closely related to the question of public health with which this Department has to deal, and to which I would like to refer. It is the question of housing to which Deputy Corish has already referred. We are not at all satisfied that all that could be done by the Ministry of Local Government to improve housing conditions in urban and rural areas through the country is being done. The Minister may say that grants are not available, and that if he could get enough money from the Department of Finance his Department would be very glad to administer it for improving housing conditions in the country. We have said here before, and we will repeat it as long as we think it is necessary to do so, that this matter of carrying out improvements in housing is urgent. It is not being dealt with in a manner that we believe is proper considering the nature of what I may call the disease. Speaking for my own constituency, I can say that there has not been any attempt made to tackle the problem in Dublin, and particularly in North Dublin. Money has not been made available to tackle the problem in the big manner in which it ought to be tackled. Not alone are the housing conditions bad, but they are very bad, and the effects on public health, so far as infantile mortality is concerned, are atrocious.

I have quoted here before the words of Dr. Russell, Medical Officer of Health for Dublin, who certainly speaks with knowledge, and considering his position we must assume that he speaks with authority and a sense of responsibility. In a speech which he recently made in one of the city hospitals—I think it was opposite the doors of Merrion Street itself—he said that the housing conditions in Dublin had disimproved, and that there were in the city cellar dwellings occupied by families that were condemned as long ago as in the lifetime of his predecessor, the late Sir Charles Cameron. That ought not to be so, and though the Ministry may say that they are not entirely responsible for the City of Dublin, and that is so, they have a very great responsibility, particularly in view of the fact that they added to it by taking from the citizens direct responsibility and putting in their own official nominees to run the city. Officers of their own Department are responsible, and, therefore, the Ministry are responsible in my judgment for the abominable condition of housing in Dublin, and the shockingly high rate of infantile mortality in the city. It is a matter that cannot be too frequently spoken about and too often stressed, until a remedy is found. I do not know what the policy of the Department with regard to housing in general is, and I would like to know what it is.

We know that a number—a considerable number if you like—of houses have been built under the various Housing Acts that have been passed here during the last seven or eight years. I think the Minister told us that 17,115 houses have been built. I take it these figures are correct. If it is the policy of the Department to build in seven or eight years 17,000 houses, I say that discloses a mentality that does not realise the condition of housing in this country, the backward nature of it, and the urgency of the problem. If you build at the rate of 5,000 houses a year, you would not, in my opinion, be doing enough. That may be thought a rather extreme statement. I know that the money question enters largely into this, and I know the Minister told us here in discussing housing that the question of the cost of building enters largely into this matter. The cost of building could be largely reduced if the question of housing were tackled as it ought to be. Even if the suggestion made by Deputy Corish to-night with regard to slates were adopted, it would be an advantage. The combined purchasing department has been very much criticised, but, in my opinion, it is a necessary and useful department, and if that department inquired into the number of houses local authorities throughout the Free State area intended to build in any one year and endeavoured to get the slate quarries to contract for the supply of slates for these houses, in that one item alone I imagine a considerable reduction could be made. What could be done in that direction I believe could be done in many other directions also. On several occasions here we have urged the setting up of one authority to deal with the question of housing. I will not go into that now, but I believe if there were such an authority and the question of builders' supplies were taken up, the present cost, and in some instances high cost, of house building in the Free State could be materially reduced, and, therefore, more houses could be built and let at lower rents than have to be charged at present.

The Minister, as we know, has had a survey made among, I presume, all the urban authorities of the Free State with regard to the question of housing. I do not know whether that census is completed or not yet. I hope it is. It certainly is useful work. The Minister told us, according to the estimate given to him, that the number of houses required in the urban areas is 43,000. I wonder would I be thought to be extreme in suggesting that a similar number would be necessary for the rural areas, including the small villages and towns. The Minister or his officials considered that an over-estimate of the number of houses required, and he suggested that 30,000 would probably be nearer the number necessary for urban areas. We will take it that probably another 30,000 would be necessary for rural areas. That means 60,000 houses would be necessary, but at the present rate of progress it would take twenty-four years to get these 60,000 houses built, without taking into account whatever increased demand there might be if there were an increase of population in the meantime, and without taking into consideration the number of houses that would fall into decay. I do not know if the Minister is satisfied himself with the rate of progress. If 30,000 houses are, as his officials suggested, immediately necessary for urban areas and 30,000 for rural areas, and that is a moderate estimate, I wonder is the Minister satisfied that it would be at least twentyfive years at the present rate of progress before these houses could be built?

I do not think, if that be the policy of the Department, that it can be called satisfactory. In the meantime, one can imagine the condition of the slums in Dublin City, and one can imagine the death rate in the city. The Minister told us this evening that there had been an improvement in the matter of infantile mortality. That is very satisfactory, and I hope the improvement will continue. There will be no rapid progress in the right direction unless a more satisfactory housing policy can be introduced and developed by the Local Government Department.

[An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.]

It was satisfactory to hear that numbers of local authorities had developed a desire for the medical inspection of schools and school children, and we were told that the number of authorities taking an interest in child welfare is increasing. In that connection I am sure that everybody who takes an interest in the subject was glad to see the Press announcement some time ago, and was glad to hear the reference made to-night by the Minister, to the effect that there will be a Public Health Conference held in Dublin in July. That is a development in the right direction: it is something that was for a long time necessary. I hope the Conference will be a success, and that there will be in attendance many public men from all over the Free State. I hope that the people will be encouraged to take an increased interest in public health matters.

Last year the Minister promised a Bill which, he said, would bring about a codification of the poor law. That Bill has not yet made its appearance. Perhaps the Minister, when he is concluding the debate, will tell us what progress has been made, and if and when the Bill will be introduced. Similarly, a Bill dealing with pure milk was promised. I hope these two Bills will be introduced in the near future. There are one or two matters in relation to public health to which I would like to refer. In the report of the Department for 1927-28, published a couple of months ago, there are figures given on page 33 relating to the number of cases of infectious disease. It seems to me that in regard to some of these diseases the figures are very high. In relation to diphtheria and scarlatina the figures are, perhaps, unduly high in comparison with other years. I would like to know in what number of cases is the disease fatal. The report does not indicate the percentage of fatal cases arising out of infectious disease. I notice on the next page of the same report a disease that ought not to be common in this country. I refer to enteric fever which appears to have been fairly widespread in certain parts of this country. These are matters that bear out what we say with regard to the question of public health and the necessity for education in matters relating to public health. The number of cases of infectious disease, such as enteric fever, diphtheria, and scarlatina is too high. There are too many cases of disease in this small, thinly-populated country. If our knowledge in public health matters were improved I believe that such diseases would be rare—some of them, at any rate. A disease like enteric fever ought to be rare in the Free State. I move that progress be reported.

Progress reported: the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
Twenty-Third Report of the Committee of Selection.

I beg to report that the Committee has nominated the following Deputies to serve on the Special Committee to consider the Legitimacy Bill, 1929:—Deputies Beckett, Bennett, Buckley, Byrne, Cole, Egan, Fahy, Little, T. Murphy, O'Mahony, and Ward.

Report ordered to lie upon the Table.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, the 1st May.

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