Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 May 1930

Vol. 34 No. 10

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on Motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy Corish.)

Mr. O'Kelly

Last night, when Progress was reported, we were on the subject of public health. I am glad to see in the last annual report of the Department of Local Government and Public Health a statement on page 5 that greater activity was shown by local bodies in the promotion of waterworks and sewage schemes. That is development in the right direction. There are a very considerable number of towns and villages in the Free State area in which there is no proper water scheme and no proper sewage disposal arrangements to-day, so that the statement made. I think, by the Minister himself a couple of years ago acknowledging the backward position of sanitation of towns in the Free State area still holds good. Much remains to be done to bring those two important aspects of public health work to the condition they ought to be in. However, it is, as I have said, satisfactory to know that progress is being made as stated in the last annual report of the Department. In that connection, I read somewhere in the report that the State contribution for the promotion of waterworks and sewage disposal schemes is one-fifth of the cost. It is also stated in that report that the usual amount allowed from the National Exchequer towards relief works is at the rate of one-third of the cost.

Now to my mind—I may be singular in this—there is much greater need for development in the direction of sewage disposal schemes and waterworks in the country than in the direction of road construction. If the Department of Public Health could secure from the Minister for Finance a contribution of one-third towards these activities it would be doing better work than giving one-third towards the development of road construction.

Another aspect of public health work that has been referred to almost every year is the question of overcrowding in the county homes. County homes are, I take it, places chiefly for the convenience of old and infirm people. In a great many places there are many besides old and infirm people in these county homes —people who ought not to be there, imbeciles, lunatics, unmarried mothers and their children. There ought to be—again, it is a question of finance—proper segregation of these classes. Unmarried mothers and their children ought not to be in the county homes, and there ought to be proper provision made in the mental hospitals for imbeciles and lunatics. Such people afflicted mentally cannot get treatment in the county homes. Whatever slight chances of cure or improvement there may be in some of the cases, it certainly will not take place as long as they remain in county homes and get the kind of attention which in ordinary circumstances they are bound to get in these institutions, which are already overcrowded with other classes who are entitled to be there.

Another problem which gives cause for worry in some cases is the question of the care of the blind. There has been an improvement in that direction in recent years, but there is room for more. I had a deputation from the blind people in my constituency a couple of times in recent months and they complained bitterly that enough was not done for the blind. Again, we are up against the question of finance, but while there are some good institutions in the country where the blind are well treated the blind themselves feel if they got better technical education that they could be put in a position to help themselves to a larger extent than they can at present with the meagre technical education facilities that are afforded to them. I wonder if pressure of any kind could be put upon the local authorities to improve the facilities that are offered to the blind for technical education. I am sure it is a subject which has received attention. We know there has been improvement in recent years, but there is room for more improvement.

The Minister dealt, in his opening remarks, with the question of the appointment of county medical officers of health. There has been progress in that direction. There are more county medical officers of health working now than last year and the year before, but still we are a long way from having a county medical officer of health in every one of the twenty-six counties. Progress has been slow. Progress in the last year, I think, has not been very rapid, and in that connection the Minister said something last night about the educational effect of these county medical officers of health. When he stated that, the question flashed across my mind, was he referring to the educational effect of the political activities of the county medical officer of health for Meath? If there is one thing that is likely to put obstacles in the way of county councils accepting the policy of the Minister—a policy with which I agree —as to the appointment of county medical officers of health, it is activities such as those indulged in by a whole-time official. Dr. O'Higgins, a member of this House, is a whole-time official as medical officer of health in County Meath. These arctivities are condoned by the Minister. The Minister may say that he does not control that officer directly, but he certainly pays a considerable portion of that officer's salary as medical officer of health. In County Wexford, a number of members of the board of health opposed the appointment of a medical officer of health. There are counties, as the Minister and his Department know, where public men have fought and put every obstacle they could in the way of the appointment of these officials and said they are unnecessary. They are certainly given a very good argument when they see that a medical officer, a whole-time official, can spend so much of his time away from the work for which he is appointed and paid. The Minister and everyone else in the House know, or ought to know, that there should be work enough and more than enough to keep one medical officer of health in a county fully occupied. Every one would admit that we are not so far advanced in public health matters and that the health of our children and the health of people generally in every county is far from satisfactory. For the next ten years, with one medical officer of health in every county in Ireland, there is work enough to keep one man busy six days in the week without his running from Dun Laoghaire to Cork or from Letterkenny to Galway doing political work, even on days when that particular medical officer of health is not occupied in this House doing his work as a member of the Dáil. That kind of activity and the fact that the Minister condones it is bound to give weight to the argument of members of county councils and boards of health who ask: "What do we want a medical officer of health for? There is no work for him. Cannot the dispensary doctor do that work?" That is the cry usually. "Cannot the medical officers of health who are dispensary doctors, do the work?" That is the cry everywhere where there is opposition to those county medical officers of health. Certainly good grounds are given to people who oppose such appointments by the activities I refer to and by the Minister's attitude with regard to them.

There are other matters with regard to public health that might be dealt with. I am sure there will be other Teachtaí who will be anxious to speak on this subject, and probably none of these points will be overlooked. I will not take up time going over them. Most of them have been mentioned from time to time in discussions of this kind here. I read somewhere in the last couple of weeks in the daily Press a return of the collection of rates during the twelve months ended 31st March, and, as far as I recollect, there was an improvement. I have an idea that there was in some counties a considerable improvement with regard to the collection of rates. That is certainly all to the good, but there are counties that are still backward and, as the Minister said in his opening statement, efforts are being made to bring these counties up-to-date in the way of collection. I would like to say that I entirely endorse what the Minister said, that the policy of financing Local Government work out of loans is very bad and costly, and instead of helping Local Government it is a big obstacle, because money is spent in paying for these loans that could be spent on more fruitful activities in the various counties. I would like if the Minister would tell us if there has been an improvement in regard to the number of defaulting rate collectors. The number in recent years has been rather high, and the amount of money lost has been fairly considerable. Perhaps the Minister would be able to tell us if there has been any improvement in that direction.

Another subject that is causing considerable anxiety, particularly in rural areas, is that of roads and the amount of money that is being spent on them. Of course, those who are frequent users of motor-cars are very happy to find a good road and to praise those responsible for the good roads, but I suppose the users of motor-cars are in a very small minority. The people in rural areas who do not use motor-cars and who have to continue the old methods of transport—horses and cars or other methods—certainly are complaining of the cost. I do not know if it is possible for us to continue paying for two great competing methods of transport. We have the railway system, and we have to pay for that one way or another. Competing with that we have the more up-to-date system of road transport—the transport of goods by heavy motor vehicles—and the cost of the roads necessary to keep that transport in proper order is a very heavy drain. I think, considering the heavy cost and the small population we have to bear that cost, the cost of rural transport is one that is well worth consideration. I am sure it has got consideration, but it is worth reconsidering.

The amount spent on roads is growing enormously. Of course, it comes to a large extent out of the licence fees paid on motor cars, but a very big percentage of it has to come out of the rates. That is where the trouble begins. Frequently, we have had angry complaints made to some of our members about the cost that is put on the rates for the upkeep of roads. Those who have complained to us are very largely, of course, people from rural areas. They say that the roads that so much money is spent upon are roads that they cannot use. In great number, they are agriculturalists who are not in a position to use motor cars; for their cattle transport they have to use by-roads. The main roads are lost to them because they cannot risk putting their cattle upon them. I am sure that the Minister has had these matters put before him, and if he has given the matter any recent reconsideration we would be glad to hear what the result is. It seems to me that the cost is very heavy and it could even be proved that the cost of the upkeep of these very good roads, as they are in a great many cases, is too great in proportion to the number of motor users and the number of people who cannot use those roads.

There are other points with regard to roads that have been mentioned over and over again. There is the difference that one finds in the quality of the roads in different counties. Evidently in some counties there are good road makers, good engineers, county surveyors or assistant county surveyors, as the case may be, but those who travel any distance in different counties know that there are other counties where the roads are not at all up to the standard, although we are told that the same ratio of money is spent on the construction and maintenance of these roads. It is probable that that matter is receiving the attention of the engineers of the Department and it requires further attention. There are, I believe, justifiable complaints as to the quality of the roads and the value got for the money spent on them in some of the counties. Some of our members have spoken to me of their roads and the value they get for them as compared with the value that other counties—neighbouring counties in some cases—get out of a similar amount of money.

As one of those who put down the motion asking that the Estimate be referred back, I should say that we adopted that method to show our dissatisfaction with the Estimate and with the policy which it outlined, first of all, on the question of housing. We are not at all satisfied that housing is receiving the attention that it deserves. The problem is a very pressing one and we find it very difficult to discover what the policy of the Government on the matter is, if they have any policy.

The survey has been made so far as urban areas were concerned, and the Minister told us the result of it. He gave us a figure of 30,000 houses as necessary in urban areas, and I say that possibly another 30,000 are necessary in rural areas. Has the Minister any idea as to when those 60,000 houses are to be built? Has he any plan? Can he give us any idea as to when we may hope to see the slums in the City of Dublin abolished? They form a large part of the area immediately requiring houses. He must have given consideration to this matter, and he must have fixed some limit of time, remote or near, as the date by which we might hope to see the number of houses now urgently necessary built in the Free State area. The figures he gave us last night as to the total number of houses built showed that less than 2,500 houses a year have been built in the past seven years. At that rate twentyfive years — a generation — must elapse before the number of houses that are at present required can be built, and by that time many of the houses that are now habitable and fairly decent will have collapsed or will be in slums. Are we never to see an end of the housing problem? If that be the best that the Minister can do it is a poor look-out. On the question of housing alone we believe that the policy of the Government does not deserve support, and we are prepared to show our dissatisfaction by voting for the amendment in my name and in the name of Deputy Corish, that this Estimate be referred back.

The second point—it is not so important, of course, but it has its own importance as bearing on the question of public health—is what I mentioned a few moments ago, the attitude of the Minister towards one of the officials of his own Department neglecting the work for which he is paid as a whole-time officer, trotting around the country five or six days of the week when he has a sufficient amount of work to do for the full week in looking after the health of the people of County Meath, if he would only do it, for the money that the ratepayers are taxed to pay him a decent salary.

Sir James Craig

In the early days of the Dáil in successive years I was at times a very severe critic of this Estimate. I find, however, that there are grounds upon which I can support the Estimate, and grounds upon which I could not support the amendment. I look back to five years ago and I find that the total Estimate then was £561,889; this year it is only £482,158; in other words, there is a reduction in the entire Estimate of practically £80,000. One of the points upon which I laid very great stress in the early days was the cost of administration, but I now find that I am able to congratulate the Minister in this direction. He may not have gone far enough to please everybody, but he has gone a considerable way. I find that the cost five years ago of salaries and wages was £91,000 odd; this year it is £81,000, so that there is a reduction of £10,000 on administration in this year's Estimate as against that of five years ago. Another point upon which I spoke severely was the amount of expenses that were entailed by the travelling of inspectors throughout the country. This was a huge item, and on one occasion I remember saying that these inspectors were not needed in anything like the numbers that were going through the country, and that it would be better to let them stay at home and pay their salaries than in having the cost that there was then. I find, however, that as far as this item is concerned the travelling expenses have been reduced from £10,500 to £6,600. On these two points alone I think we should give credit where credit is due.

On the other hand, when I turn to what is being done as far as social services are concerned I find that there is a good deal of improvement with regard to the amount of money spent on them. I find for child welfare that, whereas only £14,000 odd was spent five years ago, we are now spending over £22,000. That is, child welfare, schools for mothers, etc., grants to the societies that are working in this most needy direction. Of course, five years ago the medical treatment of children was practically unknown, because then £1,166 was provided in the Estimate, but this year there is £11,000. I give the spending of that money my most earnest commendation, but it is not anything like enough; we want a great deal more to spend in medical inspection and in the treatment of children, particularly in the treatment. As far as the grants for the provision of meals to school children are concerned I have to find fault with the fact that the increase has only been from £6,000 to £7,600.

I do not think that I ever spoke on this Estimate without appealing to the Minister to encourage in every possible way the spending of money in giving meals to poor children attending school, and I say that this item in the Estimate could be very greatly increased. With regard to the welfare of the blind, there has been practically no change in five years. But when we come to the treatment of tuberculosis we have to admit that there has been an improvement—from £43,000 to £91,000. I take it that that is largely due to the appointment of county medical officers of health, and the expenses that have been entailed thereby. The treatment of venereal disease is practically the same, but the amount spent on housing has very greatly diminished.

With regard to the county medical officers of health, on whom I spoke until I was almost tired, we have made a certain amount of progress, but I think in about half the counties no county medical officers of health have been appointed. On the other hand, in the counties where medical officers of health have been appointed, not enough is being done. I do not think there is any use in appointing a county medical officer of health and giving him tuberculosis work without giving him assistance to do the work. How is he going to call to inspect the 120 or more schools that there are in a county? Say that there is an average attendance of 60 in each of these schools. How can he possibly inspect them? One of the things that is most urgently needed, in my opinion, is that help should be given to the county medical officers of health by appointing assistants to inspect and treat children. There is another point in connection with that which also requires attention. Many of these children are suffering from forms of disease that require special treatment—treatment of the nose, throat and eye. In my opinion that is not capable of being done—particularly treatment of the throat and nose—even by the surgeon connected with a county hospital, so that it is necessary that some provision be made by which children who are suffering from enlarged tonsils and throat complaints of that nature should be treated by someone who has a more special knowledge.

I agree with Deputy O'Kelly that some more provision should be made for the unmarried mother. I need not go into that question any further, but I think it is a deplorable thing that these girls are turned out of the county home a short time after giving birth to children. Their parents in many cases do not want to have them back in their homes, and they, in many cases, do not want to go back to their homes, and there should be some provision to look after these girls when they leave the institutions.

A matter on which a great deal of discussion took place last year was with regard to the sanitary condition and the water supplies of various urban areas. Cases were brought forward that; to say the least of it, were disgraceful. In fairly large towns there were no water supplies and the sanitary arrangements were disgraceful. I do not know whether the Minister is making much progress in that matter, but I want to ask whether any progress is being made in the schemes that were suggested. Last year he stated that he would be prepared to adopt schemes if they were put forward. Unless we have proper sanitation we cannot expect to have a healthy population.

With regard to the housing problem, that, in my opinion, is a most urgent need. We are not going to reduce tuberculosis until we provide decent houses for the poor. Sanatorium treatment is practically useless if the people are afterwards sent back to live in the insanitary conditions in which they were infected. I want to stress again that, in my humble opinion, the only way in which tuberculosis will be diminished, at all events in the country, if it is not excluded altogether, depends largely on the type of houses the people live in. Over and over again I have seen people who were improved, or who were cured in sanatoria returning to insanitary buildings, where they either fell back into their previous condition or, if they were cured, they got fresh infection.

I say that it is not possible for the county medical officer of health to do the tuberculosis work of a county and the medical inspection and treatment of school children, and I would urge upon the Minister the necessity of seeing that some arrangement is made by which he would receive assistance. There are many other points that I would like to dwell upon, but I do not want to occupy the time of the House any longer, except to lay stress on the three matters that I have alluded to, the provision of sanitation and water supplies in the urban areas, the provision of houses for poor people who, after being treated for tuberculosis in sanatoria, are bound to fall back into their previous condition if they are put into insanitary houses; and finally, with regard to the inefficiency that must arise in connection with the work of a county medical officer of health if he is not provided with assistance to carry out medical inspection and the treatment of school children. I venture to say that in some counties where these county medical officers have been appointed they have not been able to get over all the schools within their areas. I do not see any necessity for referring back this Estimate, but I think we should urge upon the Minister the points where improvements can be made. I congratulate him on having reduced the expenditure in connection with administration and on having increased the amount of money to be spent on social services.

Mr. Shaw

There are very many important subjects in this Estimate that one could deal with, but I purpose confining myself to two or three of the most urgent. I would press first the question of houses, because, in my opinion, that is one of first class national importance. It is a question that I consider should be tackled in an intensified manner, more particularly at present, owing to the very unique opportunity provided by the fact that we have the lowest bank rate since the war. There is an announcement in this evening's newspaper that the bank rate has been reduced to three per cent. It has not been three per cent. since 1914. Six months ago it was 7½ per cent. The result is that what was uneconomic six months ago is economic now. I consider that this is an opportune time, and that we ought to endeavour, if at all possible, to go into this matter in a non-political manner and come together in an endeavour to solve what I believe I am correct in saying is one of the most important problems facing this country. I also consider that now is the time when the rates of interest ought to be revised. The Board of Works will lend money at 5¾ per cent. for thirtyfive years, the same rate of interest as when the bank rate was 7½ per cent., so that it is quite apparent something ought to be done in that connection.

The Westmeath Board of Health has approached the bank with regard to a loan. Boards of Health at present are not eligible to receive local loans. I do not know why. I do not think there can be very much progress made until they are brought in, because unless you can get long term loans you will have very little chance of being able to erect houses that can be let at an economic rent. At the same time, I am very hopeful of the position, in view of the terms which I believe we will be able to get, because we have been offered money at 4 per cent. by the bank, and it is quite possible that we will get it for 20 years. If we are able to do that we will be able to build houses. I agree with the Minister that the public bodies have not been doing their duty. There is no use in waiting for the Government to do everything. The public boards have an opportunity now. They can borrow money, and it is up to them, owing to the fact that there is an unique opportunity at the present time to tackle the problem.

It is a sad thing in a country such as this, where the standards of morality and of religion are so high, that such a large number of boys and girls, brothers and sisters, have to live and sleep in the same rooms. Unfortunately these conditions prevail all over the country. It is injurious to their health and injurious to their morals. I stress in the strongest possible manner this need, and I hope the Minister will introduce a Housing Bill on a much more elaborate scale than any Bill he has introduced so far, and that he will tackle the problem and avail of the unique opportunity that now exists. I would like to draw special attention to the reconstruction clause in the Housing Bill which does not apply to rural areas at present. Something should be done to provide either grants or loans for people whose houses are in a dilapidated condition, and who are unable to pay the amount that would be required to repair them, but who would be quite solvent if they obtained a loan, and would repay it in the same manner as the advances made by the Agricultural Credit Corporation are repaid by farmers.

I hope the Minister will introduce the Housing Bill as soon as it is possible for him to do it. All parties, I think, should join together in the attempt to solve this very important and difficult problem. On the question of the roads, I think the cost of them should be a national one. It is not fair, for instance, that the people of Westmeath should be asked to pay 2/- in the £, which produces a sum of £28,000, to repair roads that motor lorries and heavy vehicles from all parts of the country are injuring every day. I think that the cost of the upkeep of the roads should be made a national problem, because ratepayers will not continue to pay 2/- in the £ for a service from which the majority of them get very little benefit. A great deal of damage is being caused by the slippery condition of tarred roads, and I would like to know from the Minister if anything is being done by his Department to remedy that. In the locality I come from a good many horses fall on these tarred roads and get injured, while the other day I saw a valuable heifer slip up and break her hip. I understand that some developments are taking place in connection with that, and I hope a remedy will be found. In view of the fact that the revenue from motors has increased to the figure of £880,000, I think that the grants for the maintenance of these roads should be considerably increased.

I desire to congratulate the Minister with regard to the appointment of county medical officers of health. At first there was a good deal of opposition to the making of these appointments. Now that a number of them have been made it is realised that these officers are going to be of very great benefit to the country. The inspection of school children by them as well as the treatment, in the early stages, of people suffering from disease will, it is believed, lead to a reduced death rate. Although, as I have said, there was a good deal of opposition at first, the people now appreciate the very good work that is being done by the county medical officers of health. I hope there will be a full attendance of members of boards of health at the conference to be held in Dublin in June. A number of very difficult and important problems will be dealt with at that conference, at which the members of these boards will have an opportunity of conferring with the Minister. It is to be hoped that as a result of that conference a way may be found for removing many of the difficulties that exist at the moment.

Deputy Sir James Craig referred to a matter about which I spoke last year. It is an unpleasant subject but it is one of first class importance —that is the position of unmarried mothers. At present these unfortunate people are herded together. The first offenders are placed with the professional bad characters, with the result that there can be very little hope for their reformation The Minister last year said he hoped that something would be done in connection with that matter. I repeat that something ought to be done.

[An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.]

The present position is this, that they are rearing families at the expense of the ratepayers in many of the county homes. In the institution that I speak for, some of them have four, five and six children and they are being reared at the expense of the ratepayers. There are many subjects that one could deal with on this Estimate, but it would take too much time to deal adequately with all of them. I trust that the Minister will be able to introduce a new housing Bill and thereby help to remove many of the complaints which are being made at present in connection with housing.

Mr. T. Murphy

In replying to the statements of Deputy Corish last evening the Minister stated that he thought no case had been made by the Deputy for having this Vote referred back. I do not agree with that view. I think that Deputy Corish made a very strong case for having the Vote referred back, and I hope to be able to give the Minister some additional reasons as to why it is necessary that it should be referred back. Deputy Corish dealt at length with the question of housing. The question was also dealt with by other Deputies who have been very eloquently supported by the speech to which we have just listened. The additional criticism that I would offer on this would be to support the plea made by other Deputies on behalf of the smaller towns which at the moment have no powers to embark on housing schemes, and generally to urge that further provision should be made for housing in the rural areas.

I want to say that I freely admit that a great deal has been done in that direction and done very well. If I see any outstanding defect in the housing legislation that we have passed here during the last three or four years it is that people who have availed of it—people with plenty of capital in many cases who could have built out of their own capital if they cared to—have let the houses at rents that are entirely too high. I am referring now to the small towns where a wage of thirty shillings or thirty-five shillings would be the average, and where rents of seven and eight shillings a week and, in some cases ten shillings, are being charged for these houses. These rents are altogether too high. I think it ought to be possible, before legislation of this kind is passed in the future, that provision be made for a more rigorous control over the rents to be charged for houses erected under future schemes.

I am not at all as enthusiastic, as other Deputies who have spoken, about the county medical officer of health system. I have lost quite a good deal of the enthusiasm that I originally entertained for that system. I regard that particular provision in the Local Government Act of 1925 as being extremely valuable. I am glad to say that, in some respects, it has been valuable, but from what I see of the working of the system in Cork it is quite apparent that there are defects in it that ought to be remedied. There is an outlook in the service that, if continued, will not get the best results for the service. A good deal of useful work is being done in the direction of combating diptheria and other diseases, but recently when the question of following up the work of the county medical officer of health, in the matter of making appointments for the dental treatment of school children, came up for discussion we had the extraordinary proposal made by the county medical officer of health in Cork that this work should be performed by one dentist.

At the moment there is one county medical officer of health and three assistants functioning in Cork county. Though it was represented to the medical officer that it was humanly impossible for one dentist to deal with the school children in the County of Cork I understand that the Department has affirmed the view of the county medical officer. I want to tell the Minister that if that view is persisted in in a county of the size of Cork it means that this service will not be of value, because the dentist will be faced with the task of attending children from Youghal to Castletownberehaven, and he will of necesity have to spend most of his time travelling in his motor car, and the actual amount of time available for his work will be very little.

I would like to refer also to the overlapping that takes place. Ordinary matters were reported by the dispensary doctors to the Boards, and these reports now go to the county medical officer of health in the first instance, and then they come back to the Boards. It seems to me there is a great deal of unnecessary routine associated with the whole system. What applies with regard to the dentist would also apply to the person appointed for optical treatment. Work of this kind could be more efficiently performed by part-time dentists and part-time opticians. That is the way to get the best service. I can see growing up already a tremendous addition to the number of officials required to work the service. While I agree that the service is valuable it seems to me to be opening the way to an unlimited number of appointments, and ultimately that is going to be a serious question for the people of the country. I am afraid the whole proposition will in the end be a very formidable one indeed.

I want to direct the Minister's attention to some of the immediate results of the National Health Insurance Act passed here, and which led to the abolition of the county insurance committees. The Minister was warned when this particular matter was being discussed in the Dáil that one result of the abolition of the sanatorium benefit and the throwing over of insured persons on the county board of health would be their neglect, and even the short time that has elapsed since that measure was passed into law has justified the warnings made with regard to it. In my county, owing to their straitened financial position the health board are not giving the necessary attention to cases of this kind. On the question of sanatorium benefit and the working of tuberculosis schemes in Cork there is absolute chaos, and the Minister must know it. Representations have been made to his Department with regard to the hardships created every day as a result of this new arrangement. I ask the Minister in the light of what has happened to review his whole policy in this connection. It has been a disastrous failure, and everything that was said in this House indicating that that would be the result has been justified in the few weeks that have elapsed since the measure became law.

I want to repeat the protest I made some time ago with regard to the Minister's action in denying members of this House access to officers of his Department in connection with old age pensions. I do not know whether that was the intention, but the taking of that action by the Minister coincided with a general rejection of old age pension claims. My experience is that old age pension claims have been rejected in larger numbers than for a considerable time past. That might be due to the fact that the deciding officers had not the opportunity of going into matters as they used to have. Certainly the results have been far from satisfactory to the claimants for old age pensions. I ask the Minister to look into the matter and give a better justification for his action in this connection than he did on the occasion when the subject was last before us. I want to ask the Minister what his intention is on the question of school meals, and whether it is his intention to put more pressure on local authorities that are entrusted with the working of that measure than he has hitherto done. In some places very little consideration is given to schemes of this kind, and the flimsiest objections are allowed to prevail against the schemes. I make the plea also that the Minister should consider an extension of schemes of this kind to the rural areas generally. He has already adopted an attitude that is not encouraging, but if he takes the trouble to inquire into it he will see that there is undoubtedly a demand for action.

How far has the Minister interested himself in the decision of this House on the amendment by Deputy Law dealing with the question of widows' pensions? I take it that is a matter that is engaging the attention of the Department to a very great extent, and I would like to hear from the Minister how far he has made progress, and how far he has gone to get the information that would be necessary to enable himself and his colleagues to make a decision. I hope in doing that he will take a different line to that indicated by the Minister for Finance when he seemed to bar the door for a long time on any improvement in the social services of the country. Reference has been made in the course of the debate by, I think, Deputy O'Kelly, to the question of the care of the blind. I think the Minister's failure to insist that local authorities should make adequate provision in this matter is one that ought not to commend itself to this House. Even the Minister, on his own showing, is without any correct or detailed information as to the actual number of persons afficted. The provisions, if any, made by many local authorities, are extremely meagre indeed. On the preparation of the Estimates in my own county I complained about the inadequate sum of £100 voted for this purpose in Cork for the coming year. It is entirely inadequate, and one might as well say that it is no provision at all.

General Mulcahy

Is that for the whole county of Cork?

Mr. Murphy

Yes, and this is the first occasion on which provision has been made, although the matter has been considered for a long time, but not in the detailed manner I would like to see it considered. The provision is entirely nominal.

I would like to see the Minister regarding this matter as one to be dealt with in a more thorough manner by his Department and less by a local authority. It is extremely difficult, even in a very good case, to persuade a local authority to increase expenditure on any service, no matter how deserving. Yesterday evening the Minister indicated his intention, when the opportunity arose in the future, of asking county councils to ensure that county surveyors would become the chief engineers for each county and that they would supervise work in connection with labourers' cottages and other work of that kind. A more unworkable or ridiculous arrangement in a county such as Deputy Carey, Deputy Daly, I, and other Deputies represent, I cannot imagine. I think the Minister must be aware that no arrangement of that kind could be properly worked. I am sure there are many proofs already available of how unworkable an arrangement of that kind would be. The newspaper reports have informed us that an arrangement of this kind was put into operation in the County Kerry some time ago and the result has been chaos. There was an enormous increase in cottage rents. Labourers' cottages have been falling down and there has been difficulty all the time between the County Board of Health and the County Council in connection with engineering arrangements. The Minister should profit by the experience of a county much smaller than Cork and should realise that it is very difficult to manage in the way suggested.

Perhaps the most valuable assistance given to the question of providing sanitation and water supplies, such as Deputy Sir James Craig mentioned, was given a couple of years ago when the Government provided some portion of the money. I regret that no attempt has been made to develop that policy, because when schemes for sanitation and water supplies arise the difficulty always is to convince a large number of members of local boards as to the wisdom of embarking on such schemes on the ground of expense. I urge that money should be given, even in a small degree, towards schemes of that nature. If the Minister is not prepared to do that he ought to take power to compel local authorities to go ahead with such schemes when he is satisfied from the evidence of his own inspectors that the schemes are necessary and urgent. He ought to be in a position to make an order whereby the area of charge would be extended over the widest possible area. This point is really at the root of a great many of the difficulties that arise, and it is an answer to the charges that Deputy Sir James Craig has made, that at this time in the world's history important towns are without a water supply and are in a disgraceful sanitary condition.

I regret no great attempt has been made to give effect to the report of the Poor Law Commission except in regard to some minor details. I regret we never had an opportunity in this House of discussing important items in that report. While there are many things in that report that I would not be in agreement with, there are a large number of valuable suggestions that might be given effect to with great advantage to the country and with credit to the Minister's Department. I hope the Minister will indicate how many outstanding recommendations in that report he proposes to give effect to and what generally is his policy in connection with the Commission's report and its major recommendations. I would like to ascertain the Minister's views with regard to some suggestions in the report. There was one suggestions about establishing a central County Home in Cork City. A more outlandish suggestion was never made. I was surprised that any members of the Commission who have a knowledge of Cork County would countenance such a suggestion. I must really complain that the Minister is entirely too much disposed to centralising services. He will find, if he examines the position thoroughly, that the demand in this country in a great many cases is for decentralisation. In neighbouring countries that is the position, and very wisely so. As time goes on I am not at all convinced that the Minister or his successor will not have to recast a great deal of what is done in the way of amalgamation and will have to remedy a whole lot of matters that have been made for the harsh and oppressive treatment of the poor.

In connection with hospital accommodation in Cork County I would like the Minister to endeavour to meet the difficulties that arise. I admit that there were difficulties and that a demand was made upon him for sanction to enable larger contributions to be paid to the Cork City Hospital. In one of the City hospitals where excellent work has been done and from which no poor persons has been turned away because he was unable to pay the cost of treatment, a very limited grant is being paid by the county council. I would like to see that grant increased and I feel sure that there would not be the slightest opposition to that proposal on the part of any member of the county council.

I believe the Minister himself would be sympathetic. Difficulties arise out of mere legal formalities, and I would ask the Minister, if possible, to go into the whole matter again and see if there would not be some opportunity of wiping away the difficulties in connection with the whole matter. I want to draw the Minister's attention also to the whole administration, atmosphere and surroundings of the county homes, such as we know them at present. They are extremely unsatisfactory, and they must continue to be extremely unsatisfactory until the Minister, through the machinery of his own Department, will take a stronger and more insistent attitude in connection with them. The whole appearance of the county homes, externally and internally, is extremely depressing, as are the conditions generally, and the whole machinery and system must be overhauled.

General Mulcahy

Is the Deputy speaking now about any particular county home or county homes?

Mr. Murphy

I am talking with particular knowledge of my own area. I admit myself that in that connection the board of health, of which I am a member, is more responsible than the Minister, and that prompts me to think that this whole thing arises generally and that the Minister himself ought to go into this question and see how far the surroundings, the atmosphere, the machinery and the management of institutions of that kind would be brightened and broadened. It is difficult to do much in this connection, having regard to the many difficulties that arise at the moment. While I do not wish to shirk my own responsibility in this matter, I think the Minister himself will have to take a line in this connection later on if much is to come of the management of places like that or if any reasonable results are to accrue. The whole surroundings at the moment are cheerless and bare. Everybody one sees in these institutions looks miserable and wretched, and one has little hope for the system. Apart altogether from the housing of unmarried mothers, young children, and generally people for whom other provision should be made, the places leave much to be desired.

Of course, that arises altogether in connection with the report of the Poor Law Commission. I would like to see the Minister go into the question of the whole administration of home assistance. I am not in a position to indicate to the Minister a better system or how the present system could be vastly improved—at least, I am not prepared to do it just now. There is room for vast improvement. I appeal to the Minister to go into this whole matter and to see how far the system so cruelly degrading at the moment might be improved. I feel that the administration of the Minister's Department might be carried on on much broader and more humane lines. It is the one Department of State where humane and generous administration is essential and I feel that a great deal could be done to improve the administration of the Department along those lines. I would again urge that the Minister give some attention to the points I have raised and endeavour to enable us when this particular Vote comes under review again to be able to congratulate him on a very marked improvement in the general working of the Department, a very much more detailed attention to the various matters that are extremely important, and that must continue to demand attention until the Minister decides to give them the attention that they merit.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

It is a matter for regret that the Minister could not find it possible to give more facilities towards the building of houses, especially as he has embarked on a rather expensive scheme of county medical officers of health. Having done that, he should give them better opportunities to give good results. According to Deputy Sir James Craig, who is an authority on the subject, it is quite evident that tubercular diseases arise mainly from bad housing conditions. I was rather surprised to discover that the duties of the county medical officer of health are not so onerous as in the constituency from which I come. It does not appear that the county medical officer of health has employment for the six days of the week. It would seem that his duties do not cover more than two or three days of the week, but I take it that he is, perhaps, on preliminary duties at the present time. If it is the case that it is his duty to inspect the schools and the school children, to inspect the towns and the insanitary houses as well as cases of tubercular disease, it would take, perhaps, more than six days of the week to do so. I hope that he will be able in the near future to give some attention to the question of houses as well as to the question of schools. I believe that the schools are a great source of spreading this disease, as well as, in some cases, giving rise to this disease. I notice in other constituencies as well as in the constituency from which I come that schools are found in close proximity to graveryards. I know that in my constituency schools are to be found without proper, if any, sanitary accommodation. I know there are schools with sanitary accommodation at the other side of the road. Those schools are often situated on the main road, with the result that the children are compelled to cross those roads, which is highly dangerous on account of motor traffic. I know other schools in which they have no playgrounds, and numbers of those schools have little, if any, ventilation.

There seems to be no provision made for the journeys that the children have to cover. I made complaints some time ago about the distances certain school-going children had to cover. Deaths occurred amongst those children, owing to those journeys. The children were three or four miles from the school and that would mean travelling six or seven miles per day. These would seem to be unnatural distances for young children to cover and no doubt, in the case of delicate children, gave rise to tubercular disease. If the county medical officer of supervising the schools and the number of tubercular cases that may arise, I believe that a number of assistants would be needed. If that is the case, this scheme is going to turn out a very expensive one. For that reason, I say that the Minister would be well advised now to make an attempt, through good sanitary housing as well as through sanitary schools and sanitary towns and villages, to lessen the duties that will be imposed on the medical officer of health.

I can give instances of large towns that have no powers at the present moment to introduce water supplies or anything of that kind. There are towns that have no sanitary accommodation whatever, and neither have they a water supply. A number of the houses in those towns are not in a sanitary condition, nor are they healthy or fit for human habitation. There is no doubt that there is in the constituency from which I come a very strong demand for houses at a reasonable price. In my opinion there should be no difficulty in building houses just now at a reasonable price. Neither do I believe that in the few houses that have been built there is any necessity for using foreign material. I know of cases where iron windows manufactured abroad are put into houses when wooden windows could be used. So far as I can make out, 30/- is the difference in the price between the imported windows and the windows that could be manufactured at home. In the building of these houses also, I believe that the slates produced in this country should be used as far as possible in preference to imported roofing. The main objection to them would not, I believe, be so much the cost, because they are very durable. They have been used at other times in this country. There may be an objection to them on account of their weight, and perhaps a stronger roof might have to be erected. If we want to build good sanitary houses there is not much use in building shoddy houses which are constantly falling down and which are a frequent source of expense to ratepayers and local authorities.

Dr. Hennessy

Deputy Corish last evening mentioned the necessity for houses in urban and rural areas. I quite agree that there is necessity for better houses for poor people in urban areas, but I think that rural areas have come off very well and that, whatever charge may be laid against the late district councils, they availed themselves very fully of the Labourers Acts, with the result that they had quite a creditable number of houses built throughout the country. There may be districts here and there which would form the subject of inquiry if there was any need for houses, but I think that a great effort should be devoted to the towns. I must say, and I do not say it because I represent Dublin City South in this Dáil, that the need for housing in Dublin is greater than in any other part of Ireland. There are underground kitchens occupied in Dublin where I doubt very much if any ray of sunshine ever enters. I would not call them houses, but these habitations are simply breeding-beds of disease. No child gets a proper start who is brought up in such habitations and he becomes a great cost to the State.

I know that to build houses for such people and to expect to receive an economic rent for them is out of the question because these people are not in a position to pay an economic rent. Still I think that cheap houses, two or three-roomed houses, should be built which could be let at a reasonable rent and, by the State bearing a little of the expense, such houses would serve their purpose very well for people who are now occupying underground kitchens. The building of houses serves a twofold purpose. In the first instance it will be a great help as regards the health of the immediate inhabitants, thus proving of benefit to the nation, and it will, in a second degree, give considerable employment. I know that it is all a question of money and that the Minister is quite sympathetic, but I think that a very special effort should be made to find money for this purpose. I recently read reports in the newspapers in which it was stated that local authorities in both Drogheda and Dundalk had declined to build houses in concrete. I think that that matter should be made the subject of inquiry by the Minister, who should get his experts in that particular line and the engineers of his Department to inquire why these authorities came to the conclusion that concrete is a defective material to build with. Was the complaint due to the concrete itself or to defects in the sand?

General Mulcahy

They wanted to use a local brick.

Dr. Hennessy

I now come to the question of hospital accommodation. The lack of district hospitals has been referred to in this debate. Deputy Corish deplored the fact that there was no fever hospital in Wexford. Taking Wexford as a typical instance, I think there should be some small fever hospital for towns of the size and population of Wexford. The removal of a fever case sometimes occurs in a late stage of the illness, and that may be due to the fact that the patient will not give his consent to be removed. The removal in a late stage of the illness is very dangerous to the patient and imperils his chance of recovery, and, if it were only for such cases, there should be small hospitals detached from the main hospitals in which these cases would be treated in towns of a population of five or six thousand. County hospitals serve very useful purposes for operations and the treatment of cases that can be removed to them, but I think it was a recommendation of the Poor Law Commission that in the case of a county hospital, even allowing for a good road to it, anything farther than twenty-five miles from a patient's house was too far. I think that that should be the maximum distance that an hospital should be away from the sick, especially the sick poor, of any dispensary district.

I must say that the appointment of county medical officers of health has been a slow operation. I do not hold the Minister responsible for that. In many cases he has met with a very obstinate opposition. I think that the initial mistake was made in not annexing a certain sum for the appointment of county medical officers of health when grants were given for expenditure to local authorities. It is rather hard to convince local authorities of the necessity of such officers. There is a great necessity for them, especially in Ireland. Ireland is a food-producing country, and it has often been alleged against us that we had no proper public health service to look after the production of food and to see that it was carried out under sanitary conditions. I think that that is a very valid reason; in fact, it should be a very cogent reason why local authorities, especially in farming districts, should see the importance of appointing county medical officers of health. There is, of course, a greater reason, namely, the health of the people, but still I think that the element of commerce might appeal to them more than the health of the people.

Of course I need not go into the duties of such officers of health as they have already been referred to and are well known. It is a trite saying that prevention is better than cure and to have people healthy you must prevent disease. I know that that is an argument which threatens the existence of the medical profession, but I would be glad to see the profession go for the sake of the health of the people. Every pound spent on the prevention of disease is worth £50 spent on its treatment, and you will have far better results. The county medical officers of health, in addition to looking after the health of children in school, will, I hope, pay special attention to making reports and annoying everyone in regard to the unsanitary condition of schools. These schools are very backward and sanitation, so far as it exists, is very primitive. I think it should be part of the education of every child to be given proper sanitary accommodation in the schools and to make the children use it. I would include in sanitary accommodation a hot and cold bath and, if I had not a trained nurse, I would have a good hefty woman who knew all about bathing children and who would run them through the bath. I believe that that should be part of the education of every child and I also believe that if a child came to school with boots which were not polished he should be made to polish them.

Mr. O'Kelly

What would you do with the child who has no boots?

Dr. Hennessy

I heard the Minister state that there was going to be established in Ireland a central laboratory, from which he expected very great things. He was also able to announce that the Oxford Institute was going to give a subscription. This central laboratory will require the best men that can be got for it if it is going to be of any good to the country. I am not too confident, if the Department of Finance will have a say in the matter, that they will pay a salary that will secure the best men for that laboratory and that we may not be in better position without that laboratory—that is, if they allow the same salary they allow the dairy bacteriologist. We have at present bacteriologists in connection with the universities doing the work. Except you are going to appoint an experienced man, a man of the highest degrees and experience to do the work, the central laboratory may not prove an unmixed blessing. I would like to refer to the position of veterinary inspectors under urban authorities to which Deputy Corish referred last night. We all know, of course, the salaries which these veterinary inspectors receive. A cynic at one time remarked that the idea of paying them such a very small salary was to ensure their inactivity and that they would give no trouble to anybody. Well, if the Minister expects those men to overlook the fact that they have such small salaries and do their work efficiently, it is more than I would expect them to do. I believe they should get better salaries and that the work of inspection should be carried out in a far more rigid manner.

As I am on the point of meat inspection, I might also take this opportunity to refer to another matter. We have contracts for supplying meat to hospitals, county homes, and mental homes in which the best heifer and best bullock beef is specified. Still you will see a contractor sending in a tender at so much per lb., and the amount at which he tenders is about 50 per cent. lower than the market price for the best beef or mutton. That man cannot intend to supply the best meat. I know the difficulty of detecting defects in the meat after it is killed. It is not at all an easy matter. A very much better course would be to have these cattle and sheep inspected before they are slaughtered. Then it would be seen if the meat reasonably comes under the heading of best beef or mutton.

There is one Departmental question to which I would like to refer. The Minister has a lady medical inspector under the Local Government Department and on account of her sex I see that she is heavily penalised. I thought that we had abolished all differences between the sexes in this country. I hope we will set an example—I am not inspired to make this complaint; it is only a little gallantry on my own part—and that the Minister will abolish any inequality in salaries in the case of men and women doing the same work in his office.

In regard to the question of roads, I am interested in the keeping of footpaths. I find that footpaths— and I travel in many counties—are generally very badly kept. There are sharp cut stones placed on them. Many children going to school will never walk on them. In fact, you would think that the footpaths were repaired with the object of driving the children out on to the polished, steam-rolled road, thus endangering their lives. I would ask the Minister to direct his county surveyors to put a stop to this practice in regard to footpaths and to see that they are kept in a way that children with bare feet can walk on them without either pain or inconvenience. Another matter, as I have referred to county surveyors, to which I would like to direct attention, is the maintenance of streets. In several towns with wide streets, the idea was to repair a space of a certain width in the centre and then at either side the road ran into ruts. Then the channels were rarely repaired. The result was that horses, donkeys and other animals, which were left standing there on market days, left the town in a very foul condition. In these small villages and towns, moreover, no provision was made for the scavenging of the streets immediately after a fair.

Again, no provision was made for the scavenging of the yards in small villages and towns, especially the yards of houses occupied by poor people. It is true that either the dispensary doctor or the county medical officer of health will report the condition of the yard, but that report will go through the usual gamut and it may be seven or eight weeks afterwards that a notice is served on the occupant of the house to abate the nuisance. The whole countryside may be affected before the nuisance is abated. I would like to make a suggestion—I do not know whether it requires legislation to have it carried into effect—that in every village in Ireland the streets and the backyards, especially of poor people, who have no means of removing manure and refuse as they accumulate, should be scavenged bi-weekly. If you have not deep sanitation at least you can have surface sanitation at a very cheap cost. If you are to have that surface cleanliness it can only be secured in the way I mentioned. I believe it would do a great deal for the cleanliness of the streets and for the health of the people. It would make us look more like a civilised people. When strangers come to these towns, they should not see accumulations of manure and other refuse strewn at the side of the streets.

I would like to know from the Minister if he has any communication from Geneva about medical benefits. In Northern Ireland they have a scheme of medical benefits for insured persons. At least, the Northern Government have agreed to a suggestion from Geneva that it was due to the insured people to get medical benefit. They have drawn up a scheme, and they have come to terms with the medical profession in Northern Ireland. They are being given the terms in force in Great Britain. The only difficulty was in connection with the dispensary doctor, but they have now solved his case and are giving him 7/6 for every insured person he treats, without any deduction from his present salary, or in any way affecting his rights. We have a very different state of affairs here. In the City of Dublin a dispensary doctor does the work of about four or five men, and he gets certification money in connection with national insurance, which works out at about threepence per certificate, as compared with 7/6 in Northern Ireland. I hope the Minister will do something about this. I believe there is need for medical benefits in Dublin and in the larger cities. I believe that the dispensary doctors have far too much to do. They are called part time officers, but they are on duty for the twenty-four hours of the day. If the work was done properly, they would have to work twenty out of the twenty-four hours.

I should also like to know when the Minister proposes to do anything about post-graduate courses. A departmental committee which was set up recommended that dispensary doctors should get a post-graduate course, lasting three months, once every five years. That was a modest proposal in the way of keeping a man in touch with the scientific discoveries of the day. A dispensary doctor in many backward parts of the country has not very many opportunities of brushing up his knowledge and keeping abreast of the times. Moreover, he is not well enough off to be a member of a scientific society. These societies publish weekly journals, but the membership costs something, and the dispensary doctor, who is generally dragging the devil by the tail, has not money enough to become a member. The Department of Finance in many ways in this country cuts across the activities of every Department. The Department had a representative on this Committee, a very excellent man, I admit, and in his private capacity he would not make the recommendations that he would make in his capacity as a representative of the Department of Finance. It was he mainly, I think, who knocked on the head this recommendation of the Committee, as he said it would cost the country too much. It would mean that between the local authorities and the Exchequer they would have to pay for the doctor's substitute while he was taking his post-graduate course. It might cost the State £8,000 per year while the course would be on, but it would cost the 500 or 700 dispensary doctors more than £17,000 per year in loss of practice while absent from home and the expense of keeping up their houses in the country and keeping themselves in Dublin during the course. There was no consideration for the dispensary doctor. We were solemnly told by the representative of the Department of Finance that it would not be worth £8,000 per year. I think the sooner we do away with the Department of Finance intruding into the work of other departments the better. I can see the wisdom of keeping the purse strings tight, but when it comes to interfering with efficiency it is quite another matter.

The only other matter I should like to refer to has been touched on by Deputy Murphy. I want to ask the Minister if he has any intention of putting the recommendations of the Poor Law Commission into force and if he proposes to introduce legislation for that purpose. These recommendations deal with a number of social questions of the very greatest importance, such as that of the unmarried mother, and they certainly would go a good way to do something for these people. Owing to lack of money our social services are lagging behind those in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, so that we are paying in one way for the luxury of our national independence. There will be some difficulty in finding money for all these things, but something should be done. I do not believe in criticising the Minister for all our failures. I believe that the local authorities should do more than they are doing. They could do a great deal more, but they object to centralisation. When an unpopular thing is to be done, for instance, Deputy Murphy wants centralisation, but I do not think you can have it both ways.

Mr. P. Hogan (Clare):

I should like to re-echo the sentiment expressed that this question of housing should be lifted out of the plane of party politics and made not alone a national question, but a question of common humanity, because it is that. The Minister, on his own figures, stands in some way condemned for want of policy or method or direction in dealing with the housing shortage. He told us yesterday that on figures supplied as a result of surveys made by the local authorities there were something like 43,000 houses needed in urban districts, I think he said in the Saorstát, but on figures compiled by representatives of his own Department he brought that number down to 30,000. Let us take his own figure. That thirty thousand houses are needed after we have spent one and a half millions on the erection of houses shows that there is a huge problem with which the Minister has not indicated how he proposes to deal.

Speaking of rural housing versus urban housing, it is as well that we should clear up some misapprehension which seems to exist in the minds of some Deputies regarding what is really rural and what is really urban. The Minister said that 69 per cent. of the money was expended on houses built in rural districts. He meant by that, of course, that they were built in the country districts as distinct from the country towns. Let us be clear on that point. It is farmers' houses and houses such as these that have been built and that accounts for the 69 per cent. But you have towns of 2,000, 3,000 and 4,000 population where there is no local authority to build houses and where houses are badly needed. There is no authority to build houses in these places because, in the first instance, long-term loans are not available and cheap money is not available. I have in mind half a dozen towns in Clare where, without exaggerating in order to make a point against the Minister, I can say the housing conditions are scandalous. The population in these towns varies from 2,000 to 4,000, and there are houses in these places where people are trying to bring up children under insanitary, unhealthy and entirely unhygienic surroundings. When the Minister says that there are 30,000 houses still required, we can realise the magnitude of the problem and the necessity for taking immediate steps to tackle it.

I said, when the Executive Council was being nominated, referring to the policy of the then prospective Minister for Local Government and Public Health, that the Government had no policy in the matter of housing. I said that a good part of the money that went to the speculative builder, went astray. I now say, with some knowledge, that in respect of the houses that have been built in urban districts three-fourths of the money has gone astray; that that money has gone to the speculative builder, and that if you go into towns, in urban districts, you will find people still in the same wretched hovels that they were in before the Housing Acts were passed. I speak of what I come into immediate contact with, and any Deputy can do the same. My experience is limited to two urban districts in my own county—Ennis and Kilrush. I know the housing conditions in both these towns. Take, for instance, the town of Ennis. There were fifty houses perhaps built there with these grants, but I know there are people still living in back lanes and in side streets where the children are being reared under conditions that are very difficult and demoralising.

We find, in the report prepared in accordance with the directions of the Department of Local Government, the local officer of health in Ennis saying that the number of houses in the district not fit for human habitation is 200. Let us take 30 per cent., according to the Minister's calculation last night, from that number, and we get something like 140 houses. The number of people inhabiting these houses is 1,600, out of a population of about 5,000. Take 30 per cent. from that 1,600 and it will bring the number down a good deal—I shall not make a calculation at the moment. It shows that the problem is of sufficient magnitude for the Minister to take cognisance of it, to induce him to indicate what his policy is, and to prevent the money for the building of houses for these people going to speculative builders, to build houses for the people who in ordinary circumstances would not be entitled to houses provided by State grants.

Houses were built in that area but if I went down the by-streets I would find people who still needed habitable houses. I would find people who were endeavouring to rear children under these conditions unable to do it. In Kilrush urban district, according to the medical officer's report, the number of houses unfit for human habitation is 70, and the estimate of houses required is 152. In both these towns, houses were built under the grant, but they have been built without any policy, method or direction. It simply means that people who need houses have not got them. These houses have been sold for big prices —for £400 and £500. The money given in a good many cases had been lent by foreign insurance societies and it might be said that foreign insurance societies own three-fourths of the houses built by grants given by the Government.

We were told a few days ago that in order to preserve the country from internal and external aggression we had to spend £1,500,000. Here is aggression taking place and active inroads being made upon the health of the people through their children being brought up in insanitary surroundings and what is the policy of the Minister in that matter? That is the reason I reiterate my appeal that this matter should be made a human question and that there should be no consideration of party policy or propaganda in connection with it but that all parties should sink every difference in order to solve it.

There is a matter in connection with central purchasing that I want to draw attention to. It has been stated here, on every occasion that this estimate comes up, that central purchasing is not giving general satisfaction. I think that will be agreed by everybody who has taken care to examine it and has had any experience on public boards. The material supplied, in a great many cases, is not the same as the sample supplied. There is a grievance on the part of the local people which consists mainly in the fact that because they cannot contract for the whole of the Free State they cannot contract for the local institution.

I should like, also, to support what Deputy Shaw said on the maintenance of roads. I stated here on several occasions that national services ought not to be made local charges. National service is being made a local charge, in many cases, in connection with the roads where the road is not used 50 per cent. or 30 per cent. by the local people. The roads are being used by people from Cork and Dublin and all the cities in the Saorstát and are not, as I say, used 30 or 50 per cent. by the people who foot the greater part of the bill.

I would also like to know if the Minister intends to make any change in the matter of this barbed wire fence which he has erected around the officials of the old age pensions department in the Custom House. When that matter was being discussed on the motion for the Adjournment, I said that these officials were not in a position to understand appeals from the evidence submitted to them by the applicants for the pensions. I repeat that there are many old age pensioners who, when given 14 or 21 days' notice to make appeal, are not in a position to put their case clearly before the officers who decide the appeal. I have come across cases where they were not able to make their cases clearly without cross-examination. If you are to keep Deputies who know all the facts away from these officers, then in nine cases out of ten you are going to inflict hardship on the applicants. I do not say that in every case that comes before the officers for decision on appeal Deputies should be present. I do not say that every case in which a Deputy seeks to interview the official is one in which he should interview him. But I say there are cases, and very many of them, where a full statement by a Deputy would secure that justice would be done to the applicant and would put an entirely different complexion on the application to the officer who has to decide it. I think the Minister ought to take down this barbed wire fence and let us have free access to these officials, as is the case in regard to every other official in the service.

Mr. Brennan

I would like to ask the Minister one or two questions. The Minister stated last year, with regard to the allocation of the road grants, that they were allocated on a definite basis. I would like to know what provision his Department intends to make with regard to the allocation of grants for national roads that have not been completed, and whether they will get any extra consideration in the matter of allocation. I have in mind a road which was declared to be a national road. The amount allocated for that road out of the £2,000,000 grant did not cover one-third of the road. It is a road which opens up the West and which is taken advantage of by tourists and others. It is on all the maps as a national road, and at present part of it is a disgrace. I would like to know what the Minister is going to do with regard to that. Last year I asked the Minister a question with regard to the adjustment of the annuity accounts by the Land Commission, and he promised to give it attention. I understand that this adjustment commences about the middle of February, and the county councils are not made aware of what grants are being withheld till the middle of April. They have to have their estimates ready by the end of March, and are consequently much handicapped. The Minister promised to look into the matter and see whether the county councils could have this information before striking their rates.

Mr. Connolly

I rise to support this Budget, and I regret the Minister has not much more money for the use of the working-class houses in general. The recent Act passed here enabling urban district councils to put the Act into operation has been availed of to a great extent, as far as I can understand, and it would be very satisfactory in the main. There is a point in connection with the recent Act introduced here where it gives the urban authorities power to strike a rate of a shilling to assist in building the houses in such a manner that they could be let at an economic rent. That has been availed of to a very great extent by a number of urban districts. The striking of the shilling rate certainly enhances the prospects of that council being able to let the houses at an economic rent. That is the most difficult situation in respect to houses. It is quite possible for any council to build them, and it is quite possible to get a loan, but the cost of building is so high that it is not possible to let them at a rent which those workers are able to pay. The workers' average rate of wage is something like 30/- in districts throughout the country. If they have to pay anything more than 5/- I do not see how it would be possible for them to maintain themselves and their families in food and other necessaries. We are not able to raise the standard of wages to the level we would like, for the simple reason that we have not trades in those districts. We have not industries sufficient to warrant the increase in wages, except in very isolated cases, such as Cork and Dublin. I think it would be well that before the expiration of this Act the councils throughout Ireland should avail themselves of this opportunity and put the Act into operation. I know that certain counties whose valuation is considerable and where, by the striking of a shilling rate, you would realise a sum of about £25,000. By striking that rate of one shilling it would be a magnificent contribution for any county to do, for one year alone; and then, provided you could get buildings erected at, say, £250 each, it would mean something like 100 buildings would be erected in that county. Of course, the valuation I have in mind is very large. In respect of the material to be used in those buildings, I heard an insinuation made in reference to the Department and the Minister, that the Minister was more or less accountable for not having Irish material to use in them. That is not quite correct. It is not fair to the Department and the Minister for that statement to be made. I think the anxiety of the Department on all occasions has been that Irish-manufactured material should be used as much as possible. It is a matter for the local body who are crecting those houses to carry the wishes of the Department into operation, and if they co-operate with the Minister I certainly believe he will assist them to have Irish-manufactured material used on all occasions. That goes without saying. There is no necessity for me to dwell on that any longer, but we might as well make it plain that we are aware of the policy of the Minister and his Department in that respect.

With regard to the grants-in-aid for reconstruction of small farm houses in the country I think it would be very important that, following the adoption of schemes of county councils in respect to small farms, there would be a grant levied by this means by which a grant could be given for the reconstruction of small farm houses. There are many farm houses in the country which are more in need of repair than labourers' cottages and look very dilapidated. The labourer's cottage is a fine house, and if it is kept in the way it should be kept by the occupants and as some of them are kept it is a pleasure to go into them and a pleasure to the passerby to look at them. I think it would be well that there should be a grant made for the reconstruction of small farmers' houses. Here a few years ago there was a considerable amount of building done by farmers in our county, and we found that the housing department dealing with it here in the Department dealt with it in the most expeditious manner, gave universal satisfaction to the people, and spent considerable sums on the houses. It is a pleasure to see these houses studding the country to-day. They look respectable and decent and are habitable, and that, I think, should be fostered to a great extent. There is another matter in respect to building in urban areas. We assumed that the rateable value of a town has enhanced itself by £1,000 or £2,000 due to the extent of building created in that town. That is to say, recent building in urban areas such as banks or other institutions. The housing of the Working Classes Acts provided building. These houses increased the valuation in towns considerably and to the extent in some cases of approximately perhaps £2,000 and £3,000. We will assume that the county council struck a rate in respect to the poor rate in these towns and that the poor rate of that town is 10/-. Now they collected on a house of £100 valuation, and the rate that is to be collected by the urban area is 10/- to pay the county council. The urban council is required to pay the county council the sum of £50, while the urban council themselves have not the right to collect any more than 1/90th of the entire poor rate on that house. This is a serious matter for an urban council to have to collect the entire rate of 10/- off the urban council. But that 10/- must be distributed over the other inhabitants of the town and not the occupants of the new buildings.

That is a matter, I think, which should be adjusted between the urban councils and county councils, and I would like that the Minister would try and get some agreement between these two parties. It is not easy to get it done, but I think an effort might be made to deal with it.

I am now dealing with another matter in respect to roads which is a very serious matter in the County of Longford. It appears that the traffic has reverted back to its original stage coach lines in respect to that county. Originally Longford was the main artery between the north, south, east and west. That was in the old mail coach days. We have the old mail coach stages there a present. Since the operation of the bus traffic that has come back. You have the routes to the southwest, to north-west Galway, to south Mayo, to north Mayo, to Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim and Cavan; then on the south you have the route running towards Athlone and on towards Limerick; then take the routes running in the north, we have them running to Granard, Cavan, and Killeshandra at present. I think our bus traffic is a 54 bus per day passing through the town of Longford. It is scarcely possible to conceive that we should have such a bus traffic through the small town of Longford as 54 a day. The roads through that county are reasonable but we would require under the circumstances a special grant to sustain that traffic that is passing over them. It is not like other counties where the traffic just touches the fringe at one end. They are in and out over our roads all the time and the traffic that is carried on over those is enormous.

In respect to motor traffic I would like to call the Minister's attention to a certain position that obtains in the City of Dublin in respect to bus, road, motor traffic, and pedestrians in general. I do not know whether it is his function to deal with it or not but I think it amounts to what is practically a scandal at the moment. Unless you spring to it and get off the road you will be run over. At a toot of a horn you have got to go. I think there must be drastic steps taken to deal with this type of motor drivers and other users of the road. A person has not got the merest chance of escaping some of those road hogs from time to time. Here in thoroughfares they go as they please and as they like. They toot their horn and if you are not paying attention that is the last of it.

The county hospital scheme is general throughout the country, but I think it requires some special supervision in many of the counties. The conditions that obtain here are not ideal in some respects. The cooking utensils, the heating arrangement and other matters are not what they should be in county hospitals. The water supply in some of these hospitals is very meagre. The cost of bringing a supply of water to a small county home in my district was estimated at between £7,000 and £8,000. That is a considerable sum in a small county, and it is a system that might require special consideration from the Department.

As regards the old age pensions department, we have not very much to complain. If they do not give much, they give a little now and again, and there might be a little more loosening up of the purse in time to come.

Mr. Corish

Very probably there will be now in your area.

Mr. Connolly

As regards county medical officers and dispensary doctors, the salaries in some of the counties, to my mind, are not adequate. In some cases I understand the salary is as low as £180 or £200. That is not a salary that a doctor should be asked to work for. I know very well it is not the fault of the Department of Local Government. It is the fault of the local bodies. I think the attention of these local bodies, where small salaries are paid, should be called to it. They should at least give a doctor a salary that would enable him to keep a decent home. In many cases these doctors are working day and night. They have to keep motor cars, and they have to buy at least one suit of clothes in the year. Public bodies might be a little bit more generous in that matter. There is at the present moment a desire on the part of public bodies to co-operate with the Department. They have at last discovered that the Department is directing the operations of the county homes and the county councils in the manner in which they should be directed. I am very pleased to see signs of co-operation between them. I doubt if Deputies will have anything to say by way of criticism, except on some small technical matter. I think we are perfectly satisfied with the Department's policy in general during the past twelve months.

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

Mr. Walsh

In rising to support the motion to refer this Vote back, I desire to say that I agree with Deputy Murphy that there is too much of a tendency on the part of the Department of Local Government towards centralisation. As one of those who in my own county supported the scheme of amalgamation of workhouses, I think that in some respects this policy of centralisation is being carried out to a far greater extent than we consider it should be, and in a direction in which it should not be carried out at all. Possibly there are directions in which centralisation would be a good thing. I believe that the amalgamation of the workhouses has justified itself; I do not think that the country has lost anything by the closing down of these numerous institutions. But while believing that, I believe out of that have arisen difficulties that we who started the scheme did not foresee. One of the difficulties that has arisen is in connection with the necessity for better and more widespread hospital accommodation in some rural areas, especially in large counties like Mayo. I also believe that the work of what is known as the Central Purchasing Board is being carried to extremes. I believe in the principle of the Central Purchasing Board, but I think that some modification should be introduced into the system by which local traders would get a chance of competing, and also that local bodies should have the privilege, other things being equal, of giving a preference to the local trader.

General Mulcahy

So they do.

Mr. Walsh

It does not work out in that way in practice as far as my knowledge goes, and I have been a member of public bodies for some years. I do not agree with Deputy Connolly in his statement regarding the hardship that mental officers and other high officials are suffering from. I think that if the Department paid less attention to the ills and the sufferings of the higher officials, such as medical officers, and more attention to the ills and hardships of the lower paid workers, and not attempt, as they did some years ago, to impose a sweated wage on road workers throughout the country, which they did despite the protests, in a great many cases, of local bodies, the country would gain more. In my experience the higher paid officials are well able to look after themselves.

A good deal has been said about sanitation and water supplies in small towns. This is really a crying evil, and I do not believe there is any county in which it is such a pressing matter as in my own. But while realising that, I do not believe in and I will not support any scheme that would tend to throw the provision of such accommodation on the local rates. We have to take into consideration the conditions that exist in counties like Mayo; we have to realise that in such counties small valuations are the rule and not the exception, and that the small farmers are in the position that after years of a strenuous land fight, they won concessions in the shape of lower rents from a bad system of landlordism and in which fight many of them went down in winning these concessions. Now they are asked in the shape of local rates to give up these concessions. What does it matter to a small farmer if he has to pay out money, whether as rent, annuity or rates? He will be paying it out anyhow. I quite realise the pressing necessity for providing adequate sanitary accommodation and water supplies in small towns, but it is no use to get up here, as some Deputies have done this evening, to try to pillory rural ratepayers and to hold them up as being selfish. It is no use to try to pillory local bodies when they do not rush into big schemes of this nature. In my own county we are faced with this difficulty, that if we were to provide one scheme we would be faced not with that one scheme alone but with about thirty-five schemes, for any one of which just as good a case could be put up, and each one of which is just as pressing as the other. It would mean in the end that the rates would actually be £2 in the £. There is no use in closing our eyes to these facts, and there is no use in getting up here to try to pillory the local bodies and the rural ratepayers. I would like the Minister to explain what is the cause of the delay in carrying out the Drainage Act which was passed through the House a little over twelve months ago.

General Mulcahy

Is not that a question for the county council?

Mr. Walsh

We have not been so informed.

General Mulcahy

In what way does the Local Government Department come into it?

Mr. Walsh

Well, I have been given to understand that it is, to a great extent, your fault.

General Mulcahy

The Deputy does not understand the Act.

Mr. Walsh

I understand the Act all right.

General Mulcahy

Well, perhaps he can say in what way the Department of Local Government comes into the question.

Mr. Walsh

That is what I cannot say. I am only asking for information from the Minister.

General Mulcahy

As I say, the Deputy does not understand the Act.

Mr. Walsh

I do understand the Act. I am only asking for information from the Minister, and I would be glad to get the information. I would also ask the Minister if he has considered the representations that have been made in the past two years by local bodies in regard to increasing the capitation grant to mental hospitals. The Minister is well aware that when the present grant was arranged years ago, the cost of living and the administration expenses were a great deal lower than they are to-day, that the present capitation grant is not at all fair to the local bodies, and that the deficiency has to be made up out of the rates.

A good deal has been said about housing. I quite agree that a considerable amount of work has been done during the past few years under the various Housing Acts that have been passed, but there was one bad principle contained in practically all these Acts except in the case of the Gaeltacht Housing Act, and I believe that this should be remedied in any Bill that the Minister may have in contemplation. That is, the giving of grants to people who could well afford to do without them, people with large incomes, people who are quite wealthy, people who by getting these grants probably deprive more deserving cases of them. I am quite convinced that if the Minister analysed the applications received by his Department under the various Acts and went into the financial status of the applicants he would find that that was so, that as a result of wealthy people, who could afford to do without these grants, getting them, deserving applicants were deprived of the money. Another matter to which I would like to refer is with regard to the Appointments Commission. It has been stated that this is an attempt to put into operation what was known as the National Civil Service policy of Sinn Féin.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think that the Minister is not responsible for the Local Appointments Commissioners. He is not, under this Vote, in any case. There is a Vote for that, but this is not the one.

Mr. Walsh

There is another matter on which I do not know whether I would be in order or not under this Vote, but it is a matter that I believe veers on Local Government, and that is the position of small towns throughout the country regarding what is known as tolls and customs. In some cases local bodies are trying to buy out these tolls and customs, but I know that in my constituency purchase schemes are being held up because rumours have been spreading through the country that the Local Government Department has legislation in contemplation that would practically do away with these tolls and customs, that would, for instance, make it illegal to hold fairs on the streets of small towns— though I do not believe such a step should be taken in the present financial condition of the country— and that that would be done for public health reasons, so that there would be no tolls and customs charges at all. Local committees and local bodies who have had such property offered to them have hesitated to purchase on account of these rumours.

I do not agree with Deputy Hennessy and others as to the great use the county medical officers of health are going to be. I fail to see, in a county like Mayo, that one man can do all the things we are told he will have to do. The county, from the point of Shrule down to Belmullet, is 80 miles in extent, and from the town of Ballaghadereen to Achill is about 65 miles. I fail to see how one medical officer of health is going to cover that huge territory and attend to the numerous schools, or do half the things that are expected of him. I would like the Minister to give some explanation of the position of road workers in counties like Mayo under the Insurance Acts. Public bodies have to insure their road workers, who have also to pay contributions, and they find, after all this money has been paid, that the workers get no benefit. They are disqualified for various technical reasons. It would be a good thing if the Minister would make some statement as to the position of road workers under these Acts.

I also believe that something should be done in the direction that Deputy Brennan indicated with regard to the stopping of money on account of defaulting land annuitants. That is a source of instability to the local bodies when drawing up their estimates, because sometimes they do not know what their position is as a result of the stoppage. With regard to what Deputy Hennessy said in connection with the medical profession, I would suggest to him that he should help to introduce the Chinese system, under which the doctor is paid for keeping the patient well, but the payment is stopped if he gets ill.

Mr. Daly

My experience of the Local Government Department is the very best. Any time I put a straight case to it on behalf of my constituents or on behalf of my county it always did the needful—and I say "always" advisedly. The roads in some parts are too good. The road leading to the town of Fermoy is so good that horses cannot travel on it. It is a wide road but I had to write to the Minister asking if he could give a small grant to make it wider so that horses would have a passage along the side of the slippery portion of the road. It is a great loss to the town of Fermoy. Farmers from the different districts cannot come in there, because their horses are in danger, owing to the condition of the road, and if a shaft is broken my head would be broken if I were seen about the town. They put all the blame on me.

As regards the county medical officer of health we have got a very active man in the county. He has a very big county and he and his assistants are attending well to the schools. It is a matter of great comfort to parents, especially in areas where there were outbreaks of diphtheria, to know that their children are now immune from that disease. They have been inoculated, and the parents feel that the children are now safe from attack by that disease. That is one of the good things he did. Of course there are some little things that this officer cannot attend to. He has 630 schools in the district, and I consider that it would take him ten years to inspect them all, especially if he is to have the assistance of only one dentist, as I believe is suggested by the Department. That is one of the things I must take up with the Department.

I suggest that a bargain should be made with a dentist in every town and tickets given to the children from the schools to go to him. The County Cork comprises about one-sixth of the area of the Saorstát. If one dentist were expected to attend all the children over the whole of that area, some of them would be fathers by the time he reached them. I would like to see more cottages provided for labourers. I believe it is the fault of public boards, more or less, if cottages are not being built and kept in repair. I know that some labourers' cottages are allowed to get into a very bad state of repair. I am in the happy position to be able to report that, with the assistance of the Local Government Department and of the County Board of Health in Cork looking after its business, all the labourers' cottages in our area are now nearly as good as new. We expect to be able to build more labourers' cottages. I heard it suggested by the Minister last night that the county surveyor could do some of the engineering work in connection with schemes carried out by the committees operating in the County Cork. As we have three committees under the board of health in that county, I suggest it would be impossible for the county surveyor to do all that work. I am sure the Minister would not dream of expecting us to get all that work done by the county surveyor.

Some of the rateable areas in the County Cork are very small, and if the cost of providing a water supply in one of them had to be borne by the locality it would not be possible to undertake the scheme. In such cases I would urge that either a grant or a long-term loan should be given. The people in the town of Charleville, with a population of 4,000, have to depend on a well for their water supply. There are two sources from which a water supply could be got. The scheme in one case would cost about £3,000 and in the other £13,000. The carrying out of either scheme would impose an impossible burden on the ratepayers of that area. At one time the area was joined to Kilmallock, but since the passing of the Local Government Act it is now a separate area, and could not carry out a scheme involving a large expenditure of money. The working of the tuberculosis scheme in our district has become rather difficult, so difficult that the doctor and the county medical officer of health cannot understand one another in the carrying out of the work. Whether they can or not they pretend not to. I hope the Local Government Department will give attention to that matter, and see that it is settled up, so that the poor people will not suffer while the two big pots concerned are wrangling. I desire to say here, in the presence of the Minister and his staff, that my experience of the Local Government Department is the very best.

Mr. Corry

I think, after the two very fine election addresses that we had this evening from Deputy Shaw and Deputy Connolly, that when I take a ramble down to Longford in a few weeks' time I will find everything in great order there. I am sure I will see Deputy Connolly's reconstruction scheme at work in every house. I feel, too, that the Minister for Local Government will take to heart the appeal that Deputy Connolly made to-night on behalf of the dispensary doctors and increase their salaries immediately. I am sure the poor dispensary doctors are overworked and underpaid, like all the other officials of the Local Government Department. If there is any one department in which we have clearly exemplified the maxim of government by the officials for the officials it is in the Local Government Department.

Every new branch established means a drain on the unfortunate ratepayers, and the appointment of every new official brings about, as Deputy Murphy said this evening, the appointment of five or six more. If you appoint a medical officer of health you will find that he will want three assistants; these will want seven or eight nurses, and then there will be wanted nine or ten dentists. We do not know where we will wind up. That is the policy of the Local Government Department, as far as I can judge. I was glad to hear Deputy Daly's appeal with regard to dentists, and his suggestion that we should have one in every town. I suggest that Deputy Daly is a good bargainer. Let him make a selection of the dentists and he will make a bargain and it will be a good one.

There is one matter to which I wish particularly to allude. During the past five or six months I have on a few occasions called the Minister's attention to the Combined Purchasing Department, and I regret to say that up to the present, instead of improving, that Department has got worse. On one occasion recently a sample was sent up from the South Cork Board of Health, and we had a letter from the trade department asking for the name of the contractor who had supplied the sample. That is the latest move we had on the part of the Department. I wonder what interest the trade department would have in looking for the name of a special contractor? I would like to hear some explanation from the Minister about that. On another occasion when a contractor in Cork tendered for mattresses and bed-presses for the trade department his tender was not accepted, though it was the lowest. I would like to know from the Minister how that came about. I had an idea that the lowest tender was always accepted, provided it was up to specification. This contractor has given satisfaction to the Minister and his Department in previous contracts. I would like to know by what manæuvring this Cork contractor was put out of the contract. I have seen the tender which was rejected and I have seen the price accepted by the trade department and on each item the Cork tender was the lowest. I would like an explanation as to that. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.