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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 May 1930

Vol. 34 No. 15

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,497,795 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an tAire Puist agus Telegrafa agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riara na hOifige sin, maraon le Telefóna.

That a sum not exceeding £1,497,795 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other services administered by that Office, including Telephones.

The estimated expenditure for the current financial year is £2,246,795; the estimated expenditure for the past financial year was £2,258,435, showing a reduction of £11,640 in this year's Estimates. If from the estimated expenditure of £2,246,795 is subtracted the estimated revenue of £1,816,000, a nominal deficit of £430,795 is shown, which compares with a nominal deficit from comparable figures last year of £502,435. These figures are obviously quite incomplete and do not enable us to get a true appreciation of the financial standing of the Post Office. They are not intended to convey in any sense a true picture of its financial position, but they indicate in a rough way the general tendency towards a reduction of the loss on the Department.

Even were we to take the figures of actual revenue from the Finance Accounts, and compare them with the actual expenditure as appearing in the Appropriation Accounts, the picture would still be incomplete. These accounts are merely records of revenue transferred to the Exchequer, and of actual payments made within the year, and not of revenue earned and expenditure incurred during the year. They take no account of services rendered. In fact the real financial position can only be ascertained from the Commercial Accounts, which are prepared on lines similar to those of an ordinary commercial undertaking. The latest published Commercial Accounts are those for the year ended the 31st March, 1928. They show that the total deficit on that date was £262,774. The Commercial Accounts for the previous years are available departmentally, and the following figures extracted therefrom and which show the financial position up to date may be of interest to Deputies. The figures all represent deficits: 1922-23, postal, £656,210; telegraph, £406,036; telephone, £46,014; total £1,108,260; 1923-24, postal, £403,756; telegraph, £344,328; telephone, £25,665; total, £773,749; 1924-25, postal, £290,119; telegraph, £178,507; telephone, £3,348; total, £471,974; 1925-26, postal, £216,548; telegraph, £163,443; telephone, £33,976; total, £413,967; 1926-27, postal, £170,260; telegraph, £165,305; telephone, £44,191; total, £379,756; 1927-28, postal, £71,307; telegraph, £142,212; telephone, £49,255; total, £262,774; 1928-29, postal, £8,683; telegraph, £147,955; telephone, £34,719; total, £191,357; 1929-30, postal, £13,510; telegraph, £132,135; telephone, £30,700; total, £176,345. The figures for 1929-30 are estimated figures as the accounts have not yet been completed and audited.

It will be observed from the above that the deficit continues steadily to decline, and it seems probable that the day is not far distant when the service will no longer ask the taxpayer for a subsidy. Progress towards that end is naturally becoming more difficult from year to year. It would be considerably accelerated by either a fall in the cost of living, a definite improvement in agricultural, industrial and trade conditions, or both.

It would not be unreasonable to expect that at this stage some Deputy would tear himself away from Party ties and say, "Well done". A loss of one million one hundred thousand pounds has been reduced to a loss of only one hundred and seventy-six thousand pounds.

As to the details of the Estimates, I will now explain the reasons for the main increases and decreases under the various sub-heads. I will confine my explanations to the larger amounts, but will be glad to supply any Deputy who desires the information with particulars concerning the smaller amounts.

The reasons for the larger increases and decreases are as follows: —Sub-head A 2—Salaries, Wages, etc. (Metropolitan) —decrease, £12,915, due mainly to savings anticipated as a result of retirements under Article X of the Treaty; sub-head A 3—Salaries, Wages, etc. (Provincial)—decrease, £10,815, due mainly to savings anticipated as a result of retirements under Article X of the Treaty; sub-head A 4— Salaries, Wages, etc. (Stores Branch)—decrease, £2,440, due to a reduction in the volume of work performed in the factory consequent on the introduction of automatic telephones; sub-head E 2—Conveyance of Mails by Road—decrease, £2,100, due to extension of Departmentally-owned motor services and to economies effected in contracts and services; sub-head I 1—Salaries, Wages, etc. (Engineering Establishment)— increase, £7,410, increased maintenance and renewal costs; sub-head L 3—Contract Work—increase, £31,545, due to the replacement of obsolete apparatus at Crown Alley Exchange; sub-head M 1—Repayment on Telephone Capital Account —decrease, £16,025, due to termination of payments in respect of redemption of outstanding Exchequer (Telephone) Bonds and to reduced payments in respect of Telephone Annuities; sub-head M 2—Telephone Development, etc.—increase, £6,505, estimate based on scheme outlined by the Department of Finance for the repayment of borrowings effected by the Exchequer in respect of sums advanced under the Telephone Capital Acts 1924 and 1927 for Telephone Development; sub-head N 1—Superannuation Allowances, etc.—increase, £6,450, due to abnormal increase in the number of new pensions. (The provision for 1929-30 will prove inadequate, but the excess will be met by savings on other sub-heads of the Vote); sub-head N 2—Annual Compensation under Article X, etc.—increase, £16,715, due to anticipated release of all applicants for retirement under Article X of the Treaty; sub-head N 3—Additional Allowances under Article X, etc.—decrease, £6,000. It is anticipated that the greater number of applicants for retirement under Article X of the Treaty, December, 1921, will have been released in 1929-30.

I will now deal with the three principal services of this Department, taking them in the order of their relative financial importance. As to the postal service, as shown in the summarised table of commercial account balances, the loss on this service in 1922-23 was £656,210, and has since been reduced to £13,510. It is expected that this section of our departmental activities will shortly be on a self-supporting basis. The analysis of this services under its various subdivisions given in previous statements indicates that the letter post is the remunerative portion of this branch, and recouped the losses on the other sections to a large extent. A too literal interpretation of the apparently abvious conclusion to be drawn from the figures is likely to mislead. It must be remembered that the apportionment of charges is, to an extent, artificial, and that the service stands together as a whole. The withdrawal of an unremunerative portion of the service or the upward revision of a charge would not necessarily set matters right.

Under the heading of postal services it may be appropriate to refer to an event of considerable historic and economic importance which took place during the past year. It was the opening of the reconstructed General Post Office in O'Connell Street. The accommodation made available has greatly facilitated the transaction of postal business to the public. The building contains the public office, accommodation for the accounting section, including savings bank and studios for broadcasting, together with administrative offices. When the Prince's Street wing is completed the central telegraph staff will be removed from their present temporary building. The shops in the Arcade and Henry Street have been let at satisfactory rents.

In April last a special postage stamp in three denominations was issued in commemoration of the centenary of Catholic Emancipation. The stamp was designed by an Irish artist, Mr. Leo Whelan, and the printing was carried out in the Irish Free State. The design met with general approval, and the stamp is in considerable demand by philatelists.

It has been decided to erect a number of automatic stamp-vending machines in the City of Dublin, and a contract has been entered into for the provision of 24. Of these 12 will be available for use very shortly. This development is, to an extent, experimental, and its further extension will be dependent on the efficiency of the machines in use and the extent to which they will be availed of by the public.

In connection with correspondence by air mails, facilities are in force for the conveyance of correspondence posted in the Irish Free State by the principal international air mail services. The volume of such correspondence posted continues to be small. It is estimated that 4,500 items were posted during the year, and of this number 3,700 were for the Indian service.

To afford additional postal facilities in country districts arrangements have been made to have letter boxes affixed to a number of the Irish Omnibus Company's buses. Correspondence so posted will be subject to late fee. The arrangement so far must be regarded as of a temporary and experimental nature.

Other improved facilities of a useful, if perhaps of a somewhat minor character, have been made available for the public. They include such additional accommodation as the attachment of late fee boxes to certain trains, the establishment of additional mails on weekdays and of Sunday despatches principally in connection with Dublin. Later collections from letter boxes were arranged for where practicable.

Coming to telephones, the financial position as shown in the summarised Commercial Accounts indicates that the loss on this service has now been reduced to £30,700. This is an improvement on the position in previous years. Deputies are aware that a reduction in charges took place in 1925. This reduction is greatly increasing the loss on this service. The overhead charges have considerably increased owing principally to the annual payments under the Telephone Acts. Despite assertions to the contrary, our scale of charges is comparatively moderate, and the task of balancing the account; will be a difficult one. It is axiomatic in the telephone world that large additions to the number of subscribers do not reduce the unit cost. The advantage is reaped by the subscribers in the additional quick communication facilities which the additions make available to them.

The extension of the telephone in rural areas, in so far as the breaking of fresh ground is concerned, has now almost ceased. Consideration is always carefully given to applications for the opening of new exchanges or the establishment of call offices. Whenever those applications can be justified on financial grounds the installations are carried out. During the past year telephone exchanges were opened at Ballybofey, Foxford, Ratoath and Tara. In addition 31 exchanges with less than four subscribers each were opened. Exchanges are being provided at seven other centres. The total number of call offices now open is 1,211 an increase of 51 on last year. There has been an increase of 985 in the number of subscribers' stations. A considerable number of trunk and junction circuits were provided during the year. In connection with trunk calls, a system of "personal" calls has been introduced. The subscriber can ask to get a particular person in addition to the number and is not charged the trunk fee unless the call is effective. A considerable amount of underground cable-laying took place during the past year, and included in this has been work at Dublin, Bray, and Shankhill, Killiney-Dalkey, Wexford, Dundrum, Terenure, and in connection with the Shannon scheme crossings.

During the year the extension of automatic equipment to the extent of 4,800 lines, was carried out in Dublin. The lines were transferred gradually, a method which has proved to cause least inconvenience and expense. The work of installation, together with the incidental operations, such as laying of new cables, was carried out by the staff of the Engineering Branch. The engineers in charge deserve commendation for the manner in which they performed a difficult task. I am informed that the transfer was greatly facilitated by the helpful attitude of the public.

The conversion of Rathmines area to the automatic system has been authorised and will be carried out in due course. A site has been obtained for the erection of a new exchange at Rathmines, and it is hoped the work will be commenced soon. It is regretted that in that thickly-populated area we have been unable to meet the full telephone requirements of the people. As an expedient a temporary exchange is being arranged for. This, it is hoped, will considerably relieve the congestion.

It is to be regretted that in the rural towns the demand for the installation of telephones shows little signs of expansion. I personally know of one such town, one of the most prosperous of its class, the population of which is 5,000 approximately. It contains 3 banks, 7 hotels, 6 doctors, 6 lawyers, of which 2 only are telephone subscribers. There are also numerous corn stores, provision dealers, etc., etc., but there are only 15 telephone subscribers in the whole town. Extraordinary to relate, the lawyers there combined to refuse to instal telephones on the ground that our charges were excessive. It is difficult to believe that business would not be facilitated and developed by a more extended use of the telephone. Institutions which should be expected to keep abreast of the times are very slow to avail of it. One of the leading banks which has approximately 115 offices and branches has only 20 telephones.

A comparison with a few other countries may be of interest:—

Telephones per 100 of population.

Telephone conversations per head.

Australia

7.2

59.6

Austria

2.4

69.5

Canada

13.2

221.5

Denmark

9.3

136.8

Great Britain

3.6

28.6

United States

15.8

224.7

Irish Free State

.9

7.4

Conditions differ, of course, in different countries, and it is probable we suffer in telephone density by reason of our excellent postal facilities and the many other alternative means of rapid communication.

Telephonic communication with foreign countries is being developed. Last year a transatlantic wireless service with the United States was inaugurated, and recently the Continental telephone service was extended to include Finland. Negotiations have just been completed for a wireless service with Australia.

As to telegrams, in this, as in other administrations, the telegraph provides a problem for which there seems no easy solution. Traffic continues to decline. The main reasons for this are probably the following:—(1) Increased use of the telephone; (2) the many means of rapid communication now available, principally buses, and (3) increased charge per telegram. The estimated number of telegrams originating in the Irish Free State, excluding Press messages, for the past year was 2,069,000, as compared with 2,411,000 for the previous year. The revenue for the past year was £219,350 as compared with £225,369 for the previous year. Expenses on the service were curtailed to an extent which enabled the deficit to be reduced to £132,135, as compared with £147,995 for the previous year. Despite the fact of the decreased volume of traffic, which is only due in part to the increased charges, we are satisfied departmentally, after careful examination of all the relevant facts, that the increased minimum charge imposed in August, 1928, has resulted in effecting a saving in the cost of this service.

It may be of interest to Deputies to know that the volume of our telegraph traffic compares favourably with many other countries, as, for instance:—

Telegrams per head.

Belgium

0.7

Denmark

0.6

Germany

0.6

Great Britain

1.5

United States

1.8

Irish Free State

0.7

In conclusion, I wish to express appreciation of the general conduct of the staff during the year. I believe the standard of civility and courtesy has been high, and we have received several voluntary tributes in this connection. There may be isolated instances to the contrary, and when such are reported and proved we deal with them very severely, because we recognise that the efficiency of the service is dependent on the spirit of good will between our officials and the public.

The Parliamentary Secretary appears to think that his Department should be congratulated on the fact that the deficit which results annually from the working of his Department is not as large as it once was and that certain action has been taken which has resulted in its being decreased further. He does not, however, appear to anticipate that that deficit will disappear in any reasonable time, nor has he contemplated apparently the possibility of a situation existing in relation to the postal services in which instead of a deficit there will be an annual surplus available in order that the taxpayer may be recouped for the amount which he has spent during the past seven or eight years to enable these services to be maintained. In so far as the deficits on the various branches of the service have been reduced, the Department can be congratulated, but I still maintain that there is no reason whatever why any deficit should exist at all. I think that with efficiency in administration and the proper apportionment of the charges the postal, telegraph and telephone services could be made to pay. Nor is there any reason why they should not be made to pay. If we consider the matter of the postal services alone we find that the dispatch of letters is a remunerative service but that the handling of the other classes of traffic which are grouped under the heading of postal traffic, results in an annual loss, in the estimation of the officials of the Department. It is true that the net annual loss on the services is now reduced to a figure very substantially less than that which the Parliamentary Secretary gave for the earlier years of the Free State's existence. Nevertheless, it seems that it is on that service particularly that increased revenue could be looked for, if necessary, by increasing the charges on certain of the articles carried, such as newspapers, printed papers, and matters of that kind.

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that it was the intention to establish automatic stamp machines in Dublin in the near future. It is a welcome innovation because the absence of facilities for obtaining stamps in many parts of the city after the Post Office has closed caused great inconvenience in the past. The existence of these machines will, in fact, supply a want that has been felt for a long time. The Parliamentary Secretary also stated that the volume of correspondence carried from this country by air mail is very small. I do not know if the facilities for the transportation of mail by air which are available are widely known and if steps cannot be taken by the Department to increase public knowledge concerning them. Persons communicating with different countries like India and Australia are frequently saved a considerable amount of time by having their letters sent by air mail and many of those who have to correspond with these countries frequently, would like to effect that saving if they were aware of the facilities that exist, and the cost of these facilities, to an extent to which they are not aware at present.

The Parliamentary Secretary also made a brief reference to a scheme which had been either under consideration, or had just been put into operation, to attach letter boxes to I.O.C. omnibuses.

He did not, however, go into detail in that matter. I would be glad if he would inform us what benefits it is hoped to confer by that scheme. Will the letters carried in these boxes from the city by the afternoon post be delivered that evening, or will they be delivered the following morning, and in what way will the service given be faster than the ordinary postal service and why is the additional charge necessary?

When we turn to the figures relating to the telephone service we come up against a different kind of problem. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that each addition to the number of subscribers did not reduce the unit costs, and apparently, therefore, there is little hope that this service will ever be made a paying proposition. At one time it was almost a paying proposition. That was before the reduction of charges in 1925. The loss for the financial year 1924-25 was only £3,300, which is to be compared with the estimated loss for last year of £30,700. The Parliamentary Secretary does not seem to think that the deficit will be reduced to any appreciable extent by an extension of the number of subscribers. If that is the case I think an argument can be advanced for a revision of telephone charges. I would like to see the telephone service extended and facilities offered for its extension, but I do not think that it should be maintained at the cost of the general taxpayer, who has better use to put his money to at present. The telephone service should be made a paying one even if it would involve an increase in the charge. I was very interested to hear of the lawyers of a particular town objecting to telephone charges. My experience of lawyers is that they object to everyone's charges except their own.

The Parliamentary Secretary, while deploring the inadequate use of the telephone in certain country towns, had to admit that in the populous district of Rathmines and Rathgar the Department were unable to meet all the demands for telephones which have been made, and several persons who have made applications for installations have been informed it is not possible for the Department to provide them until a new exchange has been built.

That seems to me to indicate a lack of foresight on the part of the Department. I do not say the Parliamentary Secretary is responsible for that. Possibly his predecessor is to blame. When the work of the Department was being planned out it should have occurred to the responsible heads of the Department that the demand for extensions was likely to be much greater in a district like Rathmines and Rathgar than in any town in the country, and the money spent on the provision of facilities would have been much better spent there than in rural districts, where the service has been availed of only to a very small extent. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us the number of telephones per hundred of the population in the various countries of the world and he seemed to deplore the fact that the number here was less than in other countries. I have seen it stated in the Press that the Parliamentary Secretary has not a telephone installed in his own residence. That is setting a bad example to the general public whom he is endeavouring to induce into the list of applicants for installations. If he has such a poor opinion himself of the telephone service that he has not thought fit to avail of it, surely he is a most unsuitable person to be advocating the benefits of the service to other people.

Perhaps he thinks the charge is too high.

It may be that, but so far he has not given any reason why no telephone is installed in his own house.

Might I point out to the Deputy that it is quite possible to have a telephone without one's name being on the telephone book?

I am merely referring to the statement which appeared in the Press and which, no doubt, the Parliamentary Secretary saw. In relation to the telegraph service we find there has been an estimated deficit for last year of £132,000, which has to be compared with an actual deficit of £148,000 for the previous year.

It appears that the saving which resulted from the increase in the minimum charges for telegrams has been less substantial than the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister anticipated. When they were advocating the Bill in the Dáil which effected the reduction, they told us the saving would be much more substantial than £15,000. We were told at that time that the telegraph service was a dying service. Now the Parliamentary Secretary informs us that the use of the telegraph has increased during the past year. I understood him to say there was an increased use of the service.

Excluding Press messages for the past year, the number of telegrams was 2,069,000 as compared with 2,411,000 the previous year. It indicates a decline in revenue also.

In view of the fact that the increased charge has not resulted in wiping off any considerable portion of the deficit, I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider again the case made about the granting of special rates for Press telegrams. The granting of these special rates amounts to a subsidy to the newspaper industry. I contend that that subsidy should not be given. There is very little benefit given to the community, and the taxpayer cannot afford to pay that subsidy at the present time. I do not know what the actual loss resulting from the granting of special terms for Press telegrams is estimated to be, but if the Press had to pay at the normal rate for telegraphic communications we would find that the loss on this service would be substantially reduced. If the Post Office was showing an annual surplus, and if economic conditions in the country were improved, it might be advisable to give facilities of this kind to newspapers, but I think that no case can be made for asking the taxpayer to put his hand in his pocket in order to pay for the provision of these facilities now.

The Parliamentary Secretary confined himself to stating the facts relating to the operations of his Department for the past year in matters of revenue and expenditure. I would like him to tell us what is the present position concerning the granting of facilities to the police for the exercise of a censorship over letters sent through the post. On a previous occasion we extracted from him an admission that certain facilities were given for the exercise of a censorship. Are these facilities still being given, and, if so, what justification has the Parliamentary Secretary to make for it in this year? It seems to me that public confidence in the postal service is destroyed when a suspicion exists, a suspicion which in this case is founded on fact, that any letter entrusted to the Post Office for dispatch may be opened and its contents copied before being delivered. It may be argued that the existence of this censorship is necessary for the preservation of order but I can hardly credit that any individual or group of individuals seeking to act in a manner contrary to public order and knowing this censorship exists would avail of the post for the sending of communications. I doubt if any service has been done to the maintenance of order by the existence of this censorship during the past year and I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary could say that there has. This censorship, however, has possibly created a position which might in some way account for the deficit which the taxpayer has to meet on this service.

I think that all Parties in the House should combine in asking that this interference with messages entrusted for delivery through the post should stop. If the Parliamentary Secretary is unable to give us a promise that it will stop he should, at least, undertake to use whatever influence he possesses with the Executive Council to have it stopped. If he will not do that, then he should make it quite clear what are the exact facilities that he provides for the officials of the Department of Justice. Is there a black list? Are there a number of individuals whose correspondence is interfered with and would it be possible to ascertain the names of the persons on that list? If he will not give that information could he give an assurance that the correspondence of members of the Dáil, for example, will not be interfered with? Can we get a definite assurance that any communication issued from the head office of a political party other than Cumann na nGaedheal will not be censored through the post and the contents communicated to Cumann na nGaedheal? As soon as we come up against the existence of a censorship all sorts of suspicions arise. We know that in the past official documents were handed over to a political organisation by another Department of the Government. Can we be satisfied that the Department of Post and Telegraphs is not also being used to provide political propaganda to any Party or organisation? The mere fact that I ask these questions should in itself convince Deputies that a censorship in the post is a bad thing, and that unless very exceptional circumstances exist to justify it it should not be allowed to continue. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to assure us that this censorship, the existence of which he gave us an admission of in the past, has since terminated or will terminate in the near future.

There are no other matters that I want to refer to now except purely minor matters, in relation to which I have had some correspondence with the Parliamentary Secretary during the year. There is a regulation in the Department which prohibits part-time postmen in rural districts from acting as agents for insurance companies. I do not think that that regulation can be justified, because in many cases the only part-time occupation which is available for persons who act as part-time postmen is that of insurance agents. It does not seem to me that the difficulties which the Parliamentary Secretary appeared to think would arise are at all serious. If part-time postmen were permitted to act as insurance agents but forbidden to canvass for business while in the act of delivering letters, the only difficulty which the Parliamentary Secretary foresaw would have been removed. In the majority of rural districts in saw would have been removed. In which part-time postmen are engaged the delivery of letters occupies the individuals concerned only three days a week, and for the other days they are free to take up other occupations. It is, however, obvious from the few part-time occupations which are available in rural district that the job of insurance agent is the only one, apart from the working of small parcels of land, in which part-time postmen can engage. In many cases such men have been forced to live on 13/- or 14/- a week and have been debarred from taking part in any other part-time occupation. I would be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would have that matter revised, as it certainly needs revision.

I think that the Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to congratulation because the expenses under the various heads in connection with this Vote have been reduced under difficult circumstances. There is also the fact that there has been an undoubted improvement in the service, and that there are now fewer complaints than in the past. I would like, however, to advocate the extension of the telephone service, especially in rural areas, because that service is of great benefit to many people. Telegrams are not now being sent unless they are of a very urgent character, and I think that the amount that has been received and the saving that has been effected have not been justified, because the increased price of telegrams has injured the good name of this country, especially outside, because that fact has been adversely commented on both in England and elsewhere. I hope that that grievance will be speedily removed, and that the next Budget will reduce the cost of telegrams from 1/6 to 1/-. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary has done extremely well, and I have much pleasure in congratulating him on the good results which he has achieved.

I am rather doubtful as to the wisdom of advocating economies in a service of this kind, because we know from experience that when economy is advocated here things are done which are rather against the interests of the general community. I am not standing up for the purpose of advocating economy in the postal service, which is a State service, a service to which the poorest person is entitled. I would rather see that service extended if it were for the public good rather than have economies which would re-act on those engaged in that service. In my opinion, there is another source of revenue which should be taken into consideration, namely, shopping by post. I do not refer to it in connection with Irish traders, but I mention it for the purpose of pointing out that for some years past we have had English newspapers, more than I would like to see, circulating in this country with pages of advertisements advocating shopping by post, and we know that a great deal of money is sent out of the country for that purpose to different parts of England, much to the detriment of Irish traders and the country generally. I understand that there is a fee of sixpence collected for the delivery of such parcels, and I am of opinion that that fee should be increased. It may be said that that would be a hardship on certain people, but such people should realise that the system of shopping by post is to the detriment of this country.

We have traders here who can supply the needs of these people and provide them with goods which are now sent from England by post. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary should examine the question and find out whether more revenue could not be obtained from this source. There is another matter to which I referred last year and to which I desire to refer again now, namely, the question of the compilation of the telephone directory. Up to two years ago that directory was arranged in districts and it was in a form which was handy for subscribers. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should get back to that style of directory. It is far easier for people in rural areas to find the names they require under that arrangement. The present arrangement is, in my opinion, a hopeless mess, and if you are in a hurry to get a number it takes a considerable time to find the name of the person to whom you wish to telephone.

I would like to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to a grievance which is an old one. He seems to have been so occupied in cutting down expenses as to have lost a sense of proportion when matters of justice are concerned. I refer to the grading in Waterford Post Office. Waterford is an important centre which could be made perhaps the most important centre, after Dublin, on the east coast with proper assistance and encouragement. It tries in its own way to be progressive, but the post office there is graded in the lowest grade in the service. That admission was made, first of all, by the Postmaster-General under the English system. In a letter to Mr. John Redmond in 1914, Mr. Hobhouse admitted that there had been a mistake in calculating the basis on which the grade was established, namely, on the cost of living figure. It was also admitted by the predecessor of the present Parliamentary Secretary, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who told a deputation that the matter had his whole-hearted sympathy.

The case for re-grading on a higher scale was admitted also by President Cosgrave and when the question was brought up it appeared to have been more or less decided by the Post Office authorities themselves that there should be re-grading on a proper basis, on the cost of living figure and the number of units of work, a basis which would be the same as that of Cork. When the matter was submitted to the Department of Finance, however, they took up a position which was thoroughly illogical. They did not attempt to disprove the figures brought before them and did not in any way say that the claim of Waterford City was unjust, but they made the most extraordinary case that because other post offices were graded too high no change could therefore be made in Waterford, thereby admitting that Waterford was graded too low. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should re-open this question. The grievance dates back as far as 1908 and surely it is time that justice was done in the case of Waterford after such a long period. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to do his best in the matter and to see that on the proper basis of units of work and cost of living the post office at Waterford is re-graded.

I think the Postal Department is to be congratulated on the improved financial condition in which it finds itself compared with that of some four or five years ago. I conclude from what the Parliamentary Secretary told us that the postal service will soon be self-supporting. I do not know how soon that will be, but we are hoping that it will be within a reasonable date. I do not think that I am quite in agreement, however, with the Parliamentary Secretary in thinking that an increased number of telephone subscribers will not bring in increased revenue. That does not seem to be reasonable. I should have thought that the more people who availed of the telephone service the better prospect it would have of paying and of making the charge for installation less. It is the initial charge that is the real barrier to the installation of the telephone. In my district there are a number of people who would forthwith put in the telephone if the initial cost were not so enormous. I have heard about the amounts charged in several places and they seem to me to be quite out of the ordinary; in fact, I could not understand them. I think that the party system, about which I can speak most favourably, is not brought to the notice of people by the Department in a way that it ought to be. In regard to that, I have had the advantage of being on a party system for about eighteen years and I have found it the greatest possible convenience. Fourteen of us have been on this system on two lines, and I do not think that any one of us would give it up. We have an all-night service which is of the greatest possible convenience. There are a number of people in my district who would instal telephones on account of the all-night service if the initial expense were not so enormous. I think it would be worth while for the Department even to lose a little in order to see what would be the result of bringing in a large number of new subscribers.

I am firmly convinced that in a very short time the loss would be very small. I read an account of the working of the telephone service in Northern Ireland, and it seems to me from what I read that the service there works exceedingly well and is a paying concern. I do not see why it should not be so here. They account for its success there by the number that employ the service, and I think that would go to show that if we were to make it sufficiently attractive a large number of people would use it. I think anybody who has a telephone in his house and who enjoys its conveniences would never give it up. That is my experience of it.

I want to bring again to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention a couple of special matters in connection with my own county, with regard to which he has already received a deputation, and that is the establishment at Kildangan of a call office and the question of the dropping of mails from the train. The train runs through Kildangan from Kildare to Athy, and the people would like the mails delivered by it. The railway is only about a quarter of a mile from the post office. The delivery at present is from Monasterevan, which is three and a half miles away. There are districts quite close to Kildangan which have a daily postal service, but Kildangan has a service only three days a week. Of course, that may have been all right some time ago, but fortunately things do not always remain in the same condition, and there has been a great increase in postal work at Kildangan since the establishment of the sugar factory at Carlow and also since the establishment of a very extensive racing establishment at Kildangan Castle.

A training establishment, is it not?

I mean that there is now a good deal of correspondence which brings grist to the Post Office mill owing to the enormous amount of beet that is grown in the district. There is a considerable amount of correspondence in connection with that and the training establishment, but it is worked from Monasterevan, three and a half miles away. I am sure it would pay the Post Office to have a telephone service at Kildangan, which would probably be availed of by the prominent people in the district, and I am sure that once it was established and these people had availed of it, others would take it too. That has been my experience wherever I have seen the telephone working. People in that district have also asked for letter-boxes to be placed in out-of-the-way places, and I think that the Parliamentary Secretary is agreeable to doing that. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, if he could see his way to do so, to accede to these requests from the district, because I am quite convinced from what I have been told that they would not mean a loss to the Post Office, that on the other hand they would probably bring in a considerable amount of grist to the mill, and that the establishment of this daily service that I ask for would justify the expense. A district near to Kildangan which has not the same number of people living round it has a daily service while Kildangan has not. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain why this differentiation is made, because the people in the district are not satisfied about it. I would again impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the fact that this telephone service would be a paying concern eventually, and even if there was a small loss in the beginning people would be encouraged to avail of the service.

I want to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary, who, I am sure, is worthy of congratulation. When I heard his statement to-night I was anxious to go into the figures. In the short time I have had at my disposal I found that he had made a saving in Unemployment Insurance, that is, the employers' contributions, namely his own stamps, of £1,029. I am sure he is to be congratulated on that. In war bonuses he made a saving of £9,311, a total of £10,340. The total saving has been £11,640. I think we should make him a present of the other thousand odd pounds. I do not know how he has managed the saving on unemployment insurance. I wonder if he would mind giving a tip to other employers in the matter, because I notice that the number of employees in 1929-30 was 10,782 and in 1930-31 it is 11,402. Are these figures right? I think he said it was a very rough calculation, but if he has a larger number employed now how is it that the cost of the stamps has gone down?

I did not give figures of the number employed at all. The Deputy must be thinking of some other figures.

The number employed in 1929-30 is given as 10,782 on page 264 of the Estimate, and the number employed in 1930-31 is given as 11,402. There seems to be something wrong in regard to his Department and his own stamps.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would like to explain that little problem.

There is a saving of £1,029 on unemployment stamps and health contributions, and there is a saving on war bonuses of £9,311. I would like to know whether the cost of living has increased or fallen during the last twelve months. It seems to be rather peculiar.

Is the Deputy——

I think that the Parliamentary Secretary ought not to interrupt the Deputy.

I would like to hear his explanation because I should be glad to have a few tips with regard to unemployment insurance myself, and I am sure that the farmers would like to get them also.

I submit that if the Parliamentary Secretary is willing to enlighten the Deputy it would be desirable, rather than that the Deputy should have to make a speech under a misapprehension.

The Parliamentary Secretary has no right, any more than Deputy Flinn has, to interrupt Deputy Corry when he is making a speech.

But it would not be interrupting; it would be answering a question.

If the Parliamentary Secretary could give the information now I would rather have it than later. At any rate, I make out that he has saved in stamps and war bonuses £10,340, out of a total saving of £11,640. I do not know that he is to be congratulated as much as he thinks. Then I notice under the heading of salaries that six typists have lost £9 between them, while the higher officials have gone up by amounts of £10, £20, and £25. I do not know whether he is entirely fair. He seems to be at the old Farmers' Union habit of hitting the underdog. I would like to hear some explanation of these figures. I think it will be enough for him to do to-night if he gives an explanation of these figures and gives us a tip with regard to the unemployment insurance, because it would be a good thing for people down the country to know.

I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary would explain why the commercial accounts of the Post Office are delayed so long. It looks extremely curious that the last accounts we had were, I think, for the year ended March, 1928. Surely over twelve months is a long time for a concern that is supposed to be worked on business lines to keep back its accounts from the public. This Estimate cannot be properly considered without such accounts, and I suggest that there cannot be any adequate reason for this long delay. Further, I should like to know what is being done to develop the popularity of the Post Office Saving Bank. The question was raised last year, and it is rather strange that this year the Parliamentary Secretary had nothing whatever to say on that department of Post Office activities.

There must be many people wondering why, when the Post Office Savings Bank offers at least one per cent. more than the banks to people with small savings, the Post Office should remain apparently indifferent as to whether its Savings Bank is patronised by such people or not. I think it was pointed out in other years that the ordinary joint stock banks are endeavouring to compete with the Post Office, that most of them have recently established facilities for people wishing to deposit small amounts, and they are urging these facilities on everybody they come in contact with, and it was suggested to the Parliamentary Secretary that the Post Office might be a great deal more active in that line. We have heard nothing about that, notwithstanding that the Parliamentary Secretary made a very exhaustive and interesting statement with regard to the activities of the Post Office, and to my mind, one that he can take a good deal of pride in. It is rather significant that he had nothing whatever to say on that department of Post Office work. I think it is true that in many European countries Governments encourage the fullest possible use of Post Office Savings Banks, not merely by people with small savings but by the general public, and that even big companies are encouraged to pay their staffs through the medium of the Post Office. I think there are countries where cheques can be issued on Post Office accounts, and that that is being encouraged more and more all over the Continent. We would like to know why a similar development is not encouraged in this country. It may be that the Post Office Savings Bank is not a paying concern, but, if so, we should be told that. We might also be told how far the Government have succeeded in getting back the very big sum of Irish money which was on deposit in the British Post Office at the time of the Treaty, and most of which has since remained invested there. We were told some time ago that the Government had only succeeded in getting back a very small amount of the six millions of Irish money which was then on deposit in the British Post Office. It would be very important to have the use of that money for Saorstát purposes, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give an encouraging account of how far he has succeeded in inducing depositors to transfer such money from the British Post Office to the Saorstát Post Office. If the security of the Saorstát be as good as the Government hold that it is, it should be a comparatively easy matter to convince the numerous depositors that it would be more patriotic, and at least as safe, to have their money invested here. Since there is no difference in the rate of interest, the effort of the Government to get that money back should be more successful than it has been. The matter is so important anyhow that we are entitled to secure a statement on the subject. I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.
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