Reference was made yesterday to the cost of introducing the telephone service into country districts, and special reference was made by Deputy George Wolfe to the district of Kildangan. I know of three cases in that district in which three gentlemen are anxious to get a telephone service. One or two of them have already consented to take it in. The cost in two cases is over £18, and in the third case it is £24. I think those costs are altogether excessive, considering that the district is within forty miles of the City of Dublin. If these costs could be lowered I would say that possibly a great many additional people would be induced to avail of the telephone service. The present charges are certainly abnormal. They are excessive, and I think attention should be given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the question of giving better service and better terms in country districts, so as to induce numbers of people who are not now availing of the telephone service to do so. This could be helped by lowering the costs of the service.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).
When the Parliamentary Secretary speaks about the postal service in this country paying its way, I contend that that sort of economy which is sought to be brought about in this country is harmful. In the old days we had two postal deliveries daily in the villages in the rural parts of Ireland, and these services have now been taken away or considerably reduced. I know of one particular district where we had the morning post about 8 o'clock and a mid-day delivery about one. Now there is only one delivery in that village, and that does not arrive sooner than 12.20. If the postal service cannot be made to pay except by depriving the rural people and rural areas of a decent service, then I contend that that is false economy, and that matters of that sort should be taken into consideration by the Parliamentary Secretary.
I would just like to emphasise the point made by Deputy Buckley. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to justify the telephone charges in the country districts. Up to within one mile of the Telephone Exchange the charge is £5. That £5 must cover the upkeep of the wire as well as the upkeep of the instruments and the charges at the station. Over one mile there is a charge of £1 per furlong made, so that a person living two miles from the office would have to pay £13 a year. If the £5 in the first case covers the upkeep of the wire and the other charges, then the upkeep of the wire must be very much less than £1 per station? If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to see an extension of the telephone service, why should he penalise people who happen to live outside the mile radius of the station? If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to extend the service, why does he not encourage such people to get in the telephone? If he would encourage people to get in the telephone in country districts, it would mean that the whole overhead charges would be reduced, and that he would have a better chance of making the service pay, while at the same time giving a good service.
I was glad to hear Deputy Doyle raise the question of the disadvantages under which rural areas suffer. However, in the cases that he mentioned I do not agree that there is much of a disability. If they have one post per day in a rural area they have not so much to complain of, and the Deputy said they had two. They are very well off, indeed.
I did not say they have two. They have only one delivery.
If a rural area has one delivery the people there ought to be very well satisfied. They are well off compared with areas that I know in which they have only three services in the week. In one country area that I know of where this system of three services in the week obtains, when a holiday comes along it frequently happens that there is only one service in five days. That district is not very far from a town. I do not want to criticise the Minister's desire for economy. I fully appreciate that that is the Minister's particular rôle in this House. I do not know that he has achieved much, but that is his rôle, anyway. I will not criticise him very much for that.
We have often in this House pressed for economies of various kinds, but there is such a thing as economy gone mad and I think that applies to this particular rural area that I have in mind. I know there are very many other places similarly affected. I could cite several cases, but I know this one particularly well. It certainly is not good enough, even though it might be considered economy, to deprive people of a proper delivery of letters and give them only one delivery every five days, as sometimes happens. Perhaps if I put the particulars before the Parliamentary Secretary, he might be able to make some adjustment and give back to those people some of the rights they had some years ago. Everybody in the House will agree that in a district not very remote from a town three posts a week, and frequently only one post in five days, is not giving adequate service in view of what the taxpayer pays.
I want to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the fact that the Post Office in Athlone is entirely inadequate to cope with the volume of business usually transacted there. The accommodation at the present time is really very limited. All the business has to be transacted at the one counter and the inconvenience will be better realised when I mention that at that one counter people hand in telegrams, make arrangements for telephone calls, purchase stamps, postal and money orders and deal in all the other business associated with Post Office work. I might mention that over the same counter owners of dogs take out dog licences. It will be observed that in the circumstances there is very limited convenience for the public. As a matter of fact people are frequently huddled together in the office. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to investigate this matter and see if it would not be possible to find a more suitable building which would give the required accommodation to the people in that very important town. It would be well if a larger building could be procured so that the people would not be obliged to transact Post Office business so inconveniently as at present. The Parliamentary Secretary knows very well that there is plenty of State property in and around Athlone in which a new office could be established. I hope that he will give this matter his very serious consideration.
I would like to get a promise from the Parliamentary Secretary of some definite date when he would be in a position to give an extended telephone service to that large, densely-populated area of Rathmines and Rathgar. Large numbers of persons have made applications for the telephone, but their applications could not be acceded to because the existing facilities were not sufficient to cope with any extension. Some considerable time has elapsed since a promise was given that additional facilities would be afforded. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give some definite promise to the people interested as to when they may hope to get those facilities.
I wish to support the plea made on behalf of the rural districts for an increase in postal deliveries. I have been in communication with the Parliamentary Secretary about a district within a few miles from my place where they have only two deliveries each week. The Parliamentary Secretary has agreed to go into the matter with me, but as the grievance is a general one I think that the time has come when economies in the direction of a few deliveries each week could be somewhat modified, and if a little extra service was given it would be of benefit to the people. It is very inconvenient to have only two deliveries each week. I think that in the district I refer to—Rosenallis, Clonaslee, near Mountmellick—one additional delivery per week might well be added.
There is another matter that affects country people very much and that is the porterage charge on telegrams. At the moment there is a charge of two shillings for the delivery of a telegram a distance of three miles from the Post Office. That is very excessive, and I think something should be done to reduce that figure.
In the course of this debate Deputy Lemass asked some questions with regard to facilities being provided by the Post Office in certain directions. He suggested with regard to the use of the air mail that the public should be made aware of the facilities which are available. In the Post Office Guide will be found all information with regard to the air mail, but in addition to that, it is intended to issue leaflets at the various Post Offices. That will be done in a short time, I hope. Dealing with the general question of the Post Office loss, Deputy Lemass made certain suggestions in the direction of finding out how the losses might be remedied or might be reduced. Amongst other things, he suggested that the postage on newspapers might be increased. Needless to say, the various aspects of the loss on the Post Office have received very careful and serious examination and all possibilities which might lead in the direction of reducing that loss have been given consideration.
But with regard to the particular item he mentions, the newspaper services, it is considered that there would be certain disadvantages in increasing the charges. It might not result in any financial benefit to the Post Office at all. One of the reasons, as pointed out in my general statement, is that the apportionment of the costs of the various sections of the Postal Service is to a certain extent artificial. From a book-keeping point of view it is perfectly accurate, but it must be recognised as a book-keeping apportionment. The various sections of the Postal Services hang together to an extent, and although you may find one particular section of the service is losing, the actual abolition of the service or increase in charge of that service is not necessarily going to make it pay. An abolition of a certain section of the service is not going to reduce other requirements in a proportion equal to the cost of the particular service. When a postman goes out to deliver his letters, for instance, he may be carrying at the same time twopenny letters and cheaper postal matter. Taking from that postman the delivery of the cheaper postal matter is not going to reduce the time spent on his route to any appreciable extent. That is one of the reasons why, as I stated in my general statement, that the acceptance of the obvious inferences from the apportionment of the cost of the various sections of the Postal Service is likely to be misleading. The services are to be taken as a whole and judged as a whole. It is a rather complex question. It is difficult offhand to give an explanation which may be easily understood, but it is an aspect which has been given very careful consideration in this Department.
There is also another aspect of that particular section, and it is this: Under the Postal Convention regulations we are obliged to deliver postal matter, coming from whatever source, without making any charge to the posting country. If we were to increase the postal rates on our newspapers the result might easily be that we would protect, say, those newspapers coming in from an outside country. That is to say, the postal rates from outside would be lower than the postal rates in this country. I think Deputies will agree with me that that is an undesirable thing to do.
Deputy Lemass is also anxious to know what are the benefits resulting from the attachment of letter-boxes to buses. There are various benefits, and they vary in different cases in regard to different localities. One of the benefits which would result would be this, that the buses would pass through these various country towns at a later time than the ordinary collection of postal matter to be sent in an ordinary way by the mail trains. Sometimes the buses might be several hours later; that would enable people to post letters at a time later than the ordinary posting time, and enable them to connect with mails in Dublin with which they would not ordinarily connect. For instance, they might get a connection with Dublin which should allow a letter posted at a later hour than usual in the country districts to be delivered in Dublin that evening, or it might give them a connection with the cross-Channel mail that night or with the various mails going to other parts of the country that night. That is one of the advantages which would accrue from post-boxes being attached to the buses.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary state if a letter posted in one of those boxes attached to an omnibus arrived in Dublin at 12 o'clock in the day would it be delivered in Dublin in the afternoon?
I cannot give the exact details as to the hours, but in certain cases letters posted on the buses would be delivered in Dublin that day which ordinarily would not be delivered. That is as near to it as I can get at the moment. It has other advantages. The buses pass along through little hamlets and villages where there are no pillar boxes or post offices and people can take advantage of the buses to post their letters.
With regard to the extra charge, it is felt that we are giving a special facility to the people in this case which would cost us something additional and that we might reasonably make an extra charge. As I pointed out, so far it is experimental, and even the question of charge must be regarded as experimental.
Deputy Lemass also dealt with the question of telephone charges, and, if I understand him properly, his contention was that by increasing the telephone charge we might make the telephone service a self-supporting service. That is quite possible. It is quite possible, if we increased the charge by a small amount, that the increased revenue would make the telephone service self-supporting in a quicker time than it would ordinarily become. I do not wish to be understood as saying that I do not think the telephone service will become self-supporting. I think it will, but the rate of progress in that direction is slow, and the reason is because our charges have been brought down to as low a point as possible. In fact, we are almost inclined to think that they are being brought slightly too low, but at any rate we are slowly going in the direction of making the service a self-supporting one. We wish to have it an expanding service. It is of great value to the public, and is a service which we think it is in the interests of the general development of the country to expand. We think it we were to increase the charge we might possibly check the extension, and for that reason we believe it would be unwise to increase the charges at the present juncture. We hope that eventually the telephone service will pay for itself, or come very close to paying for itself.
The general principle that an increase in the number of subscribers does not bring about a reduction in the costs is applicable to the telephone service all over the world and as I stated that the advantages which the public gain by an increase in the use of telephones is not the expectation of a lower charge but the greater communication facilities which are placed at the disposal of the various people who use the telephone. Various Deputies referred to the situation existing in Rathmines and pointed out the necessity for making an effort to meet the congestion which exists in regard to telephone facilities. Rathmines and Terenure area happens to be practically the only area in Ireland where the telephone facilities available for the people do not equal the demand. There is also a slight congestion in one or two other places, but that is the principal place. There has been some considerable delay in regard to Rathmines. We had in mind the intention of getting a site for a Post Office and Telephone Exchange in Rathmines. Considerable difficulty was experienced in getting a suitable site. When the Post Office are looking for a site in Rathmines or any other place land immediately acquires a gold mine value. People want exorbitant prices. The Post Office did not wish to rush in and buy at an exorbitant price. There was some delay in getting a site. We have now the site and the plans are ready for erecting the building but that will take some time. We felt that in the intervening period it was not right that such a large number of people should be on the waiting list in Rathmines and we have made arrangements for a temporary relief exchange to be erected in the neighbourhood of the proposed site. That will relieve, to a considerable extent, the congestion. I might point out that the congestion is due to a certain extent to other factors. There has been considerable and rapid growth in the population of that area, and the population happens to be the kind of people who are in a financial position to instal telephones. The demand for telephones in the area is greater in proportion to the number of the population than in most other districts. We recognise, however, that there is a distinct obligation on us to meet the requirements at the earliest possible date and we are working in that direction.
Deputy Lemass also entered into the question of increased telegraph charges and the saving that resulted from them. I do not intend to enter into a very close analysis of the situation in that connection because I dealt with it fully last year. I would like to point out to Deputy Lemass that simply taking the saving which is effected this year as compared with last year in the telegraph services does not give us a true appreciation of the full saving which was effected by the increased charge. Various other factors have to be taken into account, some of them not very tangible, and it is difficult to arrive at exact figures. There is no doubt that the increased charges have diverted a certain amount of custom to the trunk and ordinary telephones. The Department has estimated what the amount of the diversion is and it is fairly considerable. There are other factors also in connection with the charge. There was a continual lessening of the number of telegrams being sent even before this increased charge was imposed. If that lessening went on at the rate at which it had been going on the loss which would eventually result would be greater than the loss which actually existed at the time the change was made. We want to have comparative figures. We have got to compare the loss now with the loss which would have resulted by this time if the decrease in the number of telegrams went on at the previous rate and at previous rate of charge. So that there are three factors to be taken into account in computing the saving brought about by the increased charge. Generally, we are quite satisfied that the increased charge has resulted in a definite saving. While we can only give approximate figures, we are fairly certain that the increased charge has resulted in a saving to the Post Office Department.
Deputy Lemass also wanted to get information as to the censorship of correspondence in the Post Office. I want to make it quite clear that so far as the Post Office Department is concerned no censorship of any kind takes place. Any censorship that does take place is by warrant of the Department of Justice. If the post office have to hold up mails passing through they can only do so on a warrant from the Department of Justice, and the matter should really be discussed on the Vote for the Department of Justice and not on the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I might say, so far as I can ascertain, the number of letters which have been held up for examination is comparatively trifling. There is no such thing in existence as a black list and there is no such thing as a permanent list handed to the Post Office of persons whose correspondence has to be stopped. There is nothing in the nature of political censorship at all. Certainly no letters addressed to any Deputy in this House have been held up. I can definitely state that. No matter of any kind addressed to Deputies sitting in this House has been held up by the Post Office on the warrant of the Department of Justice. I might point out to Deputy Lemass that, so far as interference with postal matters is concerned, the Post Office here interferes to a lesser extent than almost any postal administration in the world. The Deputy himself has been advising that very stringent action should be taken in regard to holding up matter of an objectionable nature of another description, matter which comes under the Censorship Act. Doubtless when that Act comes into full operation the postal department will be called upon to interfere to a greater extent with matter passing through the post than it has done up to the present. In any case, I might repeat definitely that the amount of interference has been comparatively slight and always on a warrant issued by the Department of Justice.
Deputy Lemass also dealt with a matter which he brought to my attention personally. It is that part-time postmen should be allowed to engage in insurance work in addition to their ordinary postal work. Canvassing for insurance by part-time or auxiliary postmen is prohibited. The matter was brought to my notice recently, and after careful consideration it was decided that it would be inadvisable to sanction canvassing for insurance. The reason for that is fairly obvious. We feel that there is no regulation that we could make that would obviate the possibility of part-time postmen canvassing if they were free to do insurance work whilst they were engaged on their postal work. We think it is inadvisable that postmen should combine work of delivering letters with canvassing for insurance, and I think if the Deputy would consider it from that point of view he would realise that the prohibition is justified. We feel that there is no regulation that we would make which would prevent part-time postmen canvassing for insurance during the hours in which they are supposed to be delivering letters.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware, so far as these auxiliary or part-time postmen are concerned, that some of them have only 15/-, 16/- or 17/- a week? Surely the Department does not consider that that is a sufficient wage for a married man to keep his wife and family on. Seeing that the rate of wages is so low and that these men are not allowed to take part in insurance work, is the Department prepared to give consideration to the question of increasing these men's remuneration?
The Parliamentary Secretary is aware, of course, that the work is only part-time and that these men are allowed to engage in almost any other reasonable activity, but as it so happens insurance work is one of the few things that are prohibited for the reasons which I gave. The question of the wages of part-time postmen is another matter, and it can be dealt with apart from this particular aspect of it.
Deputy Corish suggested an addition of 6d. in the charge on foreign parcels to discourage the import of foreign goods. As the Deputy is aware there is at present a delivery charge of sixpence in regard to foreign parcels and, in addition, if the contents of the parcel are of a dutiable nature there is a minimum customs charge. We feel it would not be advisable to add to the delivery charge at the present time.
Deputy Little dealt with the question of the up-grading of the staff in the Waterford office. That question has been under consideration for a number of years. The staffs in the various cities and towns are graded into three classes. Dublin is in class 1 Blackrock and some other towns are in class II. Waterford and Clonmel happen to be in class 3. An application was made to have this question reconsidered. It was decided that the request of the Waterford staff could not be conceded. The decision is really one for the Department of Finance and not for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. As a definite decision was taken on the question during the past year, I feel that no useful purpose would be served in re-opening it again. The various factors that enter into the question are too complicated to discuss in the course of a debate of this nature, but if the Deputies representing Waterford are sufficiently interested I can discuss the matter personally with them.
Deputy George Wolfe and other Deputies dealt with the question of the cost of installing telephones in rural districts. I think that a good many Deputies misunderstand the position in regard to the cost of this work. The general policy of the Department in regard to applications for telephone connections in rural areas is this: that the charge made shall be such as to recompense the Department for the annual cost which results from the establishment of the telephone. If a person who applies for the installation of a telephone in his home resides three or four miles from the nearest Post Office Exchange, and if poles and wires have to be erected to his residence, the charge is bound to be very high, unless Deputies are prepared to assert that people in such a situation should be subsidised to a very considerable extent. The charge in some of these cases may amount to as much as £20 or more. The charge is dependent upon the position of the applicant's home. It is such as barely to recompense the Post Office for the annual cost resulting from the erection of the poles and wires and the other necessary apparatus with operation charges. If it were possible to get a number of subscribers in a rural area, then the total charge of erecting the poles and wires and doing the other necessary work could be divided amongst them, and the cost would not come so heavy on a particular individual.
The Post Office can scarcely be held responsible for the fact that people applying for telephone installations happen to reside in isolated rural areas, very far away from the nearest Post Office exchange. We are prepared to provide cheaper facilities where we can get a number of people living in a certain area to join together and have a rural party line. The cost of a rural party line works out a good deal cheaper than the cost of a telephone installation for individual use. Of course, there are certain disadvantages in the case of a party line, though it is very much cheaper than the other system. People do not seem to take very much interest in this party line scheme. There is no evidence of any development in that direction on the part of the people in rural areas.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary explain why the charge in the case of telephone installations is 12s. per furlong up to a mile and £1 per furlong over a mile?
I think the Deputy misunderstands the position in regard to the charges. The Deputy is now dealing with charges made in the case of cities and larger towns where a considerable number of subscribers are available. In such cases the ordinary telephone charges are £6 10s. per year for a business line, and £5 per year in the case of a private residence line, with a charge of so much per furlong over a mile. That is the charge that prevails in Dublin as well as in large and in moderate-sized towns. When we come to deal with the rural exchanges, where you may have one, two or three subscribers, we have to deal with them in a different way. Generally speaking, the method adopted is to make a charge proportionate to the cost of the installation. There is no fixed rate of charge. I take it that what the Deputy has in mind are the cities and the larger towns where we can get a considerable number of subscribers.
Is it not a fact that the Department for Posts and Telegraphs have refused facilities for the affixing of telephone wires to the poles used for carrying the electricity lines? As the Parliamentary Secretary is, no doubt, aware there are a good many persons living adjacent to towns that have the electricity supply who have had electricity carried to their homes on poles for the erection of which they have had to pay themselves. When they wished to get the telephone installed in their homes they desired to economise by using the electricity poles for the carrying of the telephone wire. I understand that the Department has refused to facilitate them in that. Would the Parliamentary Secretary state the reason for the refusal?
I have no definite information on the point raised by the Deputy, but, as far as I am aware the policy of the Department is to have telephone lines erected by the Department itself. Possibly there would be a technical difficulty in carrying out what the Deputy suggests might be done. If the telephone wires were carried on the electricity poles it might be found that the telephone messages would not be carried satisfactorily. There would possibly be a certain amount of induction from the high tension wires of the electricity system which would make it difficult, if not impossible, to have the telephone wires carried on the same poles as the electricity wires. However, that is a technical point upon which I have no information at the moment. I am not quite sure what the reason is, as a specific instance of this has never come before me. If the Deputy will give me a specific instance I will examine into it and let him know the result.
With regard to the question that I put to the Parliamentary Secretary I want to know from him if he realises the situation himself. As far as I know, the situation is this: that for distances up to one mile people are charged £5 per year for the telephone service, and that over a mile there is a charge of an additional £1 per furlong. That means that up to a mile people are paying at the rate of 12/- per furlong, and over a mile they are paying at the rate of £1 per furlong.
I have tried to point out to the Deputy that the charges that he has quoted are only applicable to certain areas, principally the cities and the larger towns. These charges are not applicable to rural areas where you have small exchanges. The charges for the smaller places are made on a different basis.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary deal with this one point?
In the case of the cities and the larger towns the charge is £6 10s. per year within a mile radius. There is an increased charge per furlong outside the mile radius. These are the existing charges.
Outside the mile radius the charge works out at £1 per furlong. Why should that be? Why should the charge be 12/- per furlong inside the mile radius and £1 per furlong outside?
That is a point that I am not prepared to deal with at the moment.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary undertake to look into it?
Certainly.
It seems to me absurd.
I do not think it is. Deputy Moore dealt with the publication of commercial accounts, and he wanted to know why they could not be published sooner than they are at present. They are published as quickly as possible after the end of the financial year. It usually takes about five months before the commercial accounts are completed. Calculations have to be made with regard to international traffic, and adjustments made with various countries, and that usually occupies a period of about five months. The financial year of the Post Office ends in April, and they are usually completed about September. They are then handed over to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and the cost of their publication has to be sanctioned by the Department of Finance.
Deputy Moore referred to the Savings Bank. He was anxious to know what efforts had been made by this Department to get back the money of Irish depositors deposited in the English Savings Bank. After the setting up of this State, efforts were made to get the Irish depositors to withdraw their deposits from the English Savings Bank and put them into the Irish Savings Bank, and to a certain extent they were successful. Notices as to the advisability of transferring the deposits to the Irish Savings Bank were displayed in the Post Offices. It is quite probable that a large amount of money invested by Irish depositors in the English Post Office has been returned to the Irish Savings Bank. It may not be known to Deputies that the Post Office Savings Bank does not act as an agency for depositors in the English Bank—that is, deposits cannot be made through the Irish Post Office, but withdrawals can be made, the result being continuous withdrawals from the English Savings Bank and increased deposits in the Irish Savings Bank. The actual figures with regard to the Savings Bank may be of some interest. During the year 1929 the number of deposits was 504,782; the amount of the deposits £1,100,626; average amount of deposits, £2 3s. 7d.: number of withdrawals, 212,985; amount of withdrawals £1,116,018; average amount of withdrawals, £5 4s. 10d. Amounts standing to the credit of all open accounts at the close of the year were £3,163,379 as compared with £3,103,771, that is an increase in the number of deposits. The average amount standing to the credit of each open account is £16 15s. 9d. I might mention that to a certain extent the Savings Bank is affected by the propaganda in connection with the Savings Certificates. Money that would ordinarily go into the Savings Bank is going into the Savings Certificates, for which a larger rate of interest is allowed. Deputy Wolfe raised the question of Savings Bank cheques, which he also raised last year. That matter has received consideration by the Department, and it was felt that a system of cheques could not be usefully employed. We believe it is employed in one or two of the Continental administrations, but we believe the conditions here are such that they would not lend themselves to this form of banking. Deputy Buckley dealt with the cost of telephones in the country districts. I have dealt with that question already.
I think the point raised by Deputy Aiken is involved in that—that is, the charge of 12s. a furlong under a mile and £1 a furlong over a mile.
As I explained to Deputy Aiken, that is a matter I cannot deal with at the moment, but I am prepared to let the Deputies know later. Deputy Doyle and other Deputies dealt with the curtailment of postal services. Deputy Wolfe referred to a particular area. There has been no curtailment of postal services recently and the services are being continued as they were. The general policy of the Department is not to increase the present postal facilities in rural districts only in exceptional cases and where special reasons can be shown, such as that there has been a considerable increase in population in a district or industrial development in an area. It might be pointed out that the postal facilities rendered here are probably more extensive than in a great many other countries. They are certainly more extensive than in countries similarly situated. It so happens that we reaped the advantage of association with a closely-populated industrial country in regard to postal deliveries. If we were to give greater facilities in isolated districts we could do so only by an additional loss to the Department or, in other words, by subsidising the increased service.
Are not all the services in connection with the Post Office subsidised?
That is so to a certain extent, but the policy of the Department is to get away as quickly as possible from that and place the Post Office on a self-supporting basis.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary consider it just that while the whole Department is to a certain extent subsidised the rural community should get no benefit from that and that the others get all the benefit? Is that the principle he is working on? Apparently it is.
I have already answered that question. As a matter of fact it is the rural areas which are subsidised at the moment. Services to the rural areas are the services which are run at a loss.
The areas where the people get their post only two days in the week.
Deputy Wolfe raised a question with regard to Kildangan. Consideration has been given to the matter he referred to. A deputation was received by the Department in connection with it, and I personally saw one or two persons particularly interested. We gave certain concessions, but we did not feel that the situation had changed so as to warrant giving the increased postal facilities asked for. The Deputy referred to a neighbouring district where there are daily deliveries and contrasted with it the tri-weekly deliveries in Kildangan. I might point out that in itself is not a justification for a daily delivery in this particular case.
The reason increased postal facilities are asked for in Kildangan is that circumstances have altered considerably there in the last year or two, and there has been an increase in the number of letters delivered there and there has also been an increase in regard to telegrams.
Consideration was given to this point. We have information as to the number of letters dealt with in Kildangan. If certain people of considerable importance in the county have the misfortune to set up their business there that is not our fault.
This is not at all an isolated or a thinly-populated district; it is one of the most thickly populated districts in the county.
The number of letters to be delivered would not justify an increased service. This case was very carefully examined and was fully explained to the persons interested, and I think they were fairly well satisfied, in so far as it is possible to satisfy people who are not given the concessions for which they ask. But we gave certain facilities and certain concessions in that area which were regarded as improvements. I am willing to have the matter reopened and reconsidered, but I cannot hold out any hope that further concessions will be given.
Are the telephone charges made to these same people the normal charges or are they exceptional because of the position of the place? It does look curious that at a place within forty miles of Dublin people should have to pay £24 a year for a telephone.
The telephone charges are different. They have nothing to do with the fact that this place is forty miles from Dublin but are based on the distance from the nearest telephone exchange and on the amount of equipment that has to be supplied in order to provide the necessary facilities. The charges are based on the actual cost and are such as to ensure that the Post Office does not suffer a loss, but also to make fairly certain that the Post Office will not gain anything. They are based on the actual cost.
Therefore they are actually running the service in other districts at a loss.
But not into Cork.
Deputy Broderick referred to the office in Athlone. We are aware that accommodation in Athlone is not very satisfactory, and we are giving consideration to the advisability of providing better accommodation as soon as possible.
Will it be completed before the bye-election?
Now is the acceptable time.
Let us hear about Athlone from the Parliamentary Secretary first.
I want to make it quite clear that I am now dealing with the Post Office there; Deputies must not rush to the conclusion that I am dealing with the high power station. There are difficulties about securing a site in Athlone, but we are looking into the matter and we will provide suitable accommodation as soon as possible. Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the congestion in Rathmines. I have already dealt with that. Deputy Gorry, amongst other things, referred to the charge for delivering telegrams. We acknowledge that that charge is very high in rural areas, but it is only just sufficient to defray the actual cost of delivery. It is high, but when you send a postal messenger our two, three or four miles it costs something, and the amount charged is only sufficient to defray the actual cost of paying the boy-messengers who are employed.
When this Estimate was being discussed last year the Parliamentary Secretary promised to do something for people who live at a distance from the Post Office and who have to pay heavy charges for the delivery of their telegrams. He promised that, the matter having received his attention, something would be done to remedy it, as he agreed that the situation was not equitable. We find now, at the end of twelve months, that he merely states that the charges pay for the cost of delivering the telegrams, and he holds out no hope of improving the position of these people. Surely that is not treating them in a fair way.
I was not present to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's statement. I want to know if he has apportioned the £600,000 loss on the Post Office to the different branches of the service—the postal service, the telephone service and the telegraph service. We were accustomed to getting that information on previous Estimates, and we would like to know if he could give the exact figures.
Has the Parliamentary Secretary any answer to make to my complaint as to the change in the compilation of the telephone directory and the confusion it has led to? I understand that various complaints have been received from different parts of the country in connection with it.
I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to explain how, when he had 616 more employees, the cost of National Health and Unemployment Insurance seemed to be reduced by £1,029. I want to get a tip from him about that for the farmers, and I would like to have an explanation of it.
With regard to the Savings Bank department, has the Parliamentary Secretary taken into account the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Great Britain has said that he is considering the question of raising the interest on savings bank deposits? Has the Parliamentary Secretary taken into account the serious effect that such a step would have on the Savings Bank here, as inevitably it would mean that a considerable amount of money that would otherwise go to the Saorstát Savings Bank would go to the Savings Bank in Belfast or other towns in the North? Has he also taken into account the increased difficulty that there would be in getting a return of the money of Saorstát depositors that is deposited in the British Post Office Savings Bank, and will he make representations to the Minister for Finance that if the rate of interest in Great Britain is increased it will be correspondingly increased here?
I have already answered Deputy Maguire's points. If we can be sure that there is any intention on the part of the British Post Office Savings Bank authorities to increase the rate of interest, consideration will be given and cognisance taken of it. With regard to Deputy Gorey's question, I am not quite clear whether he means the postal service alone or all Post Office services.
I mean the loss on the postal service, the loss on the telephone service and also the position with regard to the telegraph services.
In my general statement I pointed out that apportionment had been made of the losses on various services. The estimated loss on the postal service was £13,510; the estimated loss on the telegraph service £132,135; and the estimated loss on telephones £30,700, making a total loss of £176,345. I could give the apportionment on the postal service itself apart from the telegraph and telephone services if it would be any use to the Deputy.
I am particularly anxious about the telephone service. I would like to know if the loss was merely a loss in operating or does it take into account capital cost.
It takes everything into account.
The cost of installation?
Everything is taken into account.
Is the interest on the capital expenditure?
Yes.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary state why he insists on people who live at a distance from the Post Office having to pay the cost of delivery of telegrams seeing that the total cost is borne by the State.
That is a point of view that might be put forward. It is the policy of the Department to charge what will pay for delivery. The effect of reducing the charge would be to increase the loss. The Deputy's is not a point of view held by us at the moment. Deputy Corish suggested that the telephone directory should be compiled according to towns or districts. Very careful consideration was given to that suggestion when it was made last year. In fact, it was considered several times previously, and it was found that it would not be suitable or acceptable. We believe the general concensus of opinion is in favour of the present system. Deputy Corish's system would possibly be suitable for small towns, but would not be the proper one for a large city with surrounding townships.
Would it not be possible to have both?
It would make it difficult, say in the case of persons living in Dublin, to find the names of persons residing in Dublin or in one of the townships.
How was it done before?
It was found unacceptable and that is the reason it was changed. The only remedy is that suggested by Deputy Lemass, to have a double system, and the objection there is the cost.
The rest of the country is always to be sacrificed for Dublin.
Are there any telephones in Wexford?
There are.
As to Deputy Corry's point I cannot follow him in his incursion into mathematical calculation. The matter is not as simple as the Deputy thinks. We do not stand upon the Estimates as an indication of the financial position of the Post Office; we stand on our commercial accounts. The reason for the ostensible increase in the number of the staff is that the number given in the Estimate for last year was minus the suggested decrease that would have resulted from the curtailment of the rural services which did not materialise. The staff has not actually increased since last year.
The point I want to bring out is that between the two years there is a difference of 616 in staff, but there is a reduction in the cost of National Health Insurance stamps and Unemployment Insurance stamps of £1,029. Has he really brought about this unemployment which he pretended he was not going to bring about? I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary is defrauding the revenue over these stamps.