The figures given by the Minister of the decrease in the number of prisoners are encouraging. They point to the possibility of decreasing the number of Civic Guards, and the expenditure necessary for those Civic Guards, in due course. They also point to the fact that the country is now getting to the stage which we all hoped for, and which Deputy Wolfe, in a speech on another Vote, described as the stage when we would be more or less the same as England, where the forces required for the prevention of crime can be reduced to the very minimum. There has been a very considerable decrease in the number of crimes committed and in the number of prisoners convicted. As regards the crimes committed in 1924, the figure was 1,614, and in 1928 it was 1,187. Even since then there has been a decrease. The Minister has not given us the figures showing the decrease in the cases of crime, but he has given us the figures representing the decrease in the average number of criminals.
As regards the kind of prisoners in jail, we find in the Prison Report for 1927 an analysis of offenders. Of the 2,836 prisoners committed on conviction, 1,044, of whom 156 were women, had not been previously convicted. The number who had been previously convicted and sentenced to imprisonment comprised 872 women as compared with 885 men. Of the former, 508 had been convicted more than twenty times. The report is a little unsatisfactory because it does not give a corresponding figure for men. In the report for 1928 we find there was an increase in the number of habitual criminals. The number of prisoners committed on conviction was 2,704 and 993, of whom 152 were women, had not been previously convicted. The number who had been previously convicted and sentenced to imprisonment comprised 903 women and 808 men. Of the former, 537 had been convicted more than twenty times. We can see from that that there has been a slight increase in the number of habitual criminals. Most of the cases were offences for which they got imprisonment for a few weeks; but the prisoners are habitual; they are the type that have got into the habit of committing certain minor offences. I believe they are capable of regeneration, and it is for that reason I have drawn the Minister's attention to this particular matter.
Whilst there has been an enormous decrease in the number of prisoners generally, in the crimes committed and in the persons convicted, there is a slight increase in the number of habitual criminals. Their psychology is difficult to understand. Very often, they are persons who may be said to be suffering from uncontrollable impulses. They are persons who must be regarded more from the point of view of treatment by a doctor rather than persons who should undergo the severe methods of the prison. There is a league known as the Howard League and from time to time it tries to get prison conditions improved. There have been conventions held with reference to improvement in the conditions of prisoners every year since 1872. There was a convention held in Washington in 1910 and another in London in 1925. I suggest the Minister should find out when they are holding another convention in order that his Department may be fully informed as to the progress made, and the experiments that have been tried in regard to an improved treatment for prisoners. The basis of the attempt at prison reform is the moral regeneration of the prisoner, and the belief that hope should be used as a more powerful agent than fear. In English prisons in the course of the experiments which have been tried they have allowed the prisoners to hear wireless, and wireless entertainments and concerts are frequent. Instruction is also given to prisoners and the quality of the food has been considerably improved.
In America also experiments of that kind have been tried. A distinguished Irish medical practitioner paid a visit to the penitentiary in Delaware recently, where they have been trying a most remarkable experiment with what result I do not know. I do not know whether the Minister's attention has been drawn to this experiment. If so, if he has any definite view of the matter or, if he is in a position to make inquiries as to how far these experiments are working out successfully we will be glad to know. I know of course that to come to that matter one has to refer to other changes in America and, in order to forestall the temptation that is lying at the door of the Minister because of my mentioning a matter like that, I think it is only fair to say that there are a number of extraneous matters, matters bearing on prohibition, which have distorted the whole system in America. I think however that this experiment in Delaware for the purposes of the ordinary criminal, may be proved to be very successful. I think we should keep our eyes open for every possible attempt towards progress in this direction. I think that in the case of Ireland experiments of this sort could be tried which might prove very successful indeed.
I now come to speak of what are called habitual criminals. I hardly like to call them by that name because these are really persons who have got into the habit of committing a certain type of offence which brings them back time after time to the jails. That is apparently due to circumstances, and, perhaps, due to a lack of proper training, and because these people are regarded as belonging to the outcast section of the community. Unless these people are given an opportunity of getting back their self-respect and their physical condition there is a danger that they will continue on like that all their life time.
The great majority of prisoners are between the ages of 30 and 50, according to the prison report, and the larger number is between the age of 30 and 40. It is not so much a question of a large number of young prisoners, but they just belong to that class of persons. It is noticeable in the last report, produced in 1928, that the decrease in the prison population is ascribed to the various Acts of Parliament which substituted fines for imprisonment and to the fact that, later on, the prisoners were given time to pay these fines. The report ascribes the decrease in the number of prisoners to that. If that be so, it is obvious that where a fine is considered a proper punishment, then, apparently, the crime cannot be of a very serious nature. Of course, the danger is that when persons like that got into the company of other criminals they become worse instead of better. In this experiment that is being carried out in Delaware, apparently, they are able to leave the prisoners working on the farm and garden with only fences around them, and yet the prisoners do not attempt to escape. The atmosphere there, being one of moral regeneration, has apparently affected them in that way. The system in Ireland includes giving the prisoners work and working on certain farms. The Minister will tell us how that system is progressing. Work is really the greatest regenerator for people like that. I think a certain amount of payment is made to these prisoners. I do not know on what basis that payment is. Some payment is made. The sum should be allowed to accumulate so as to give them an opportunity, when they come out of jail, of having something to help them back into proper civil life. If their work is of a productive nature such a payment would be justified.
Then, again, the kind of work which they should be given should be work at which they could continue when they leave the jail. Very often indeed what happens is when they leave the jail that they are thrown back upon their economic misery and their economic condition, and that brings them back to their old surroundings. If the authorities in this country would keep an eye on them after the prisoners have been released, with the object of placing them outside the influences in which they lived when they committed the offences, and if the released prisoners had an opportunity of carrying on the same kind of work outside as they had been taught to do inside there would perhaps be an opportunity of getting rid altogether of a large number of the prisoners.
A comparison between the present system in Ireland and the systems in England and America is fairly remarkable. The system in Ireland is very severe indeed. In England, long-term prisoners are allowed to play outdoor games, to attend classes and lectures and to hear concerts, whereas in Maryboro' Jail they have only one concert at Christmas and they are allowed only an hour's exercise daily, and that exercise consists of walking round an asphalt ring in the prison yard. While at these exercises each man must maintain exactly ten paces distance between himself and his neighbours. The prisoners are closely watched by the warders, so that any attempt at carrying on conversation may be frustrated. I notice the Minister is shaking his head over that. I do not want to misrepresent the system as it is, but I would welcome a statement by the Minister correcting what I have said. As this matter, however, has been brought to my notice, I think the best course is to mention it here so that it may be brought to the knowledge of the Minister. For even the slightest misdemeanour three days on bread and water are given to the prisoner. The prison workshops are situated in the same building as the cells and they are covered in and very poorly ventilated and these prisoners have to work in them. The prisoner spends 23 out of 24 hours each day indoor.
There is a library where prisoners with good conduct marks are allowed to read. If, however, they ask for a book they usually do not get the book they ask for, but another one on the same subject. The instruction given is of the most elementary nature and does not go beyond the three Rs. The food in Mountjoy is somewhat inferior to that in Maryborough. The cell accommodation provided in Mountjoy is better than that in Maryborough, but both fall short of the conditions in even English jails. The Bridewell, about which we so often hear on different occasions, is designed to house prisoners overnight, but it does not provide adequate accommodation for exercise or the provision of food. Many of the cells are damp, with no heating arrangements, and in place of beds there are merely planks. Two blankets are given to every prisoner who has to spend a night there, and the only food provided is dry bread and cocoa. I hope that the Minister will look into these matters and make inquiries as to how these experiments are progressing in other countries with a view to seeing whether some of these prison reforms could not be carried out.
Apparently the cost for feeding a prisoner per year is £12, an extraordinarily small amount. That was the figure mentioned at the Public Accounts Committee. I think that it is contendable that the prisoners are underfed and that it would be very difficult to get good work out of them under those conditions. If good work is to be got out of anybody he must get sufficient food to feed his brain and maintain his strength. There is another matter which I would like to mention in the dry air of more or less abstract principle, and that is the question of distinction between prisoners who are in prison for political offences and those who are there for ordinary offences. I think I am not saying anything unfair when I say that the Minister always refuses to make any distinction between one kind of prisoner and another. He is not at all in the tradition, even of English law, in the matter. If he looks at the authorities he will find that very far back in English law, authorities realised the necessity of making distinction between political prisoners and ordinary prisoners.
For instance, the late Dr. Sigerson, who was a man of great distinction and learning, and who on this subject gathered a considerable amount of information, pointed out that the Prisons Act of 1914 did not completely wipe away all the terms of Cross's Act of 1877. He was supported in this contention by Mr. Timothy Healy, beyond whose authority I suppose the Minister dare not go. He contended that there were certain distinctions made for political prisoners. This was based upon the theory and practice of the Constitution in England. The distinction goes back very far indeed. In fact the Minister might be regarded as revolutionary, from the point of view of lawyers, when he refuses to make distinction between political and ordinary prisoners. It was founded upon the seditious action of the Barons at Runnymede who secured the Magna Charta. "Hence"—I am quoting Dr. Sigerson—"Blackstone can distinguish offences which are mala in se, essentially evil, and those which are ‘mala prohibita' (forbidden offences), merely, ‘without any admixture of moral guilt, annexing a penalty to non-compliance.' Bentham likewise maintains the same principle and points out that sedition may occur ‘in any discourse otherwise than agreeable' to the authorities ‘intimating that the system pursued, or the conduct of those who act under it, might, if different from what it is, be better than what it is.' Hence every act he says which tends to substitute for a mischievous form of government one less mischievous is ‘in their distempered imagination' elevated to a rank towering above all offences.'"