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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 30 May 1930

Vol. 35 No. 3

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 21—Miscellaneous Expenses.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £6,801 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Costaisí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe, maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £6,801 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for certain Miscellaneous Expenses, including certain Grants-in-Aid.

The small variation this year is due first to the fact that the grant for the Royal Irish Academy is down by £200. There was an addition of £200 in that particular amount last year for the purpose of paying part of the expenses of the visit of Professor Thurneysem. Then there is an increase in the grant to the Irish Folklore Institute. The Irish Folklore Institute has been established for the purpose of having carried on in a more regular and systematic way the work of collecting, recording and publishing Irish folklore. That particular work is work that is urgent in this sense, that anything which is not done within the next few years will be impossible to do. Considerable collections had been made by individuals and by bodies like the Gaelic League, but these were lost or destroyed between 1920 and 1921, and then nothing serious was done until 1927, when the Folklore Society of Ireland, as it was called, was established. It has had collected a considerable quantity of folklore, parts of which have been printed in the Society's journal. It is necessary that there should be some more permanent type of body which would be able actually to house the collections, and not merely issue a journal, but issue quantities of folklore in annual or quarterly volumes, as the case might be, a body which would be able to have these collections properly edited with commentaries. The Folklore Institute will be controlled by a council of several members, of whom three will be appointed by the Irish Studies Committee of the Royal Irish Academy, with three members of the Folklore Society, which has a considerable membership of seven or eight hundred, and another member appointed by the Government.

I would like to know from the Minister, arising out of the grants given to the society mentioned under sub-head A, what particular service this society renders in return for this grant. Why does the Minister feel it incumbent upon him and the Government to recommend this grant to the Dáil? We all remember that a little over a year ago this society took a very partisan attitude in regard to a legislative proposal then before this House, and in the course of the discussion I gathered that it was not representative at all of the whole body of the solicitors' profession in the country. I gather that a considerable number of practising solicitors are not members of the society, and for that reason, since it obviously only represents some members of the profession, it does not command the general confidence and adherence of the whole body of the solicitors' profession, it is a question whether it is a fit subject for a grant like this. Under sub-head B the grant to the National Theatre Society, Ltd., is presumably a grant-in-aid to the expenses of the Abbey Theatre. I note that, apart from that particular enterprise, there is another theatre which has been established in Dublin recently, and which from the point of view of dramatic art is doing work of a very substantial and praiseworthy nature. It would seem to me that possibly there might be an allocation of the total amount of this grant as between these two bodies.

There is a feeling in certain circles in Dublin that the Abbey has been getting rather into a rut, and that unless one happens to belong to a certain clique or element there is very little chance of one's plays being accepted. I do not say that is my opinion, but it is the sort of feeling that prevails amongst a good many of the play-going community in Dublin. On the other hand, there is a feeling that the Gate Theatre has broken new ground, and has done a good deal to make those who take an interest in the drama in Dublin aware of the general trend of dramatic development elsewhere. For that reason, possibly, the Minister might consider—I cannot, in view of the general financial position of the country, make a plea for an increased grant under this subhead—whether the new body to which I have referred should not receive some part of the assistance which the State gives towards the development of the drama as a whole.

With regard to sub-head D—Research Grants to Students—I would be glad to know from the Minister whether the full amount voted under that sub-head was utilised during the year 1929-30. I ask the question simply for the purpose of getting information. I do not want to make any criticism with regard to the amount. Under sub-head E— Salaries, Wages and Allowances in connection with the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, and Estate Duty Appeals under the Finance (1909-10) Act, 1910—I notice that a salary of £1,500, inclusive, is provided for the referee. I would like to know how many appeals were taken to that officer under the 1910 and 1919 Acts, and whether in that connection any fees are chargeable to the applicants. I would also like to know whether there is any prospect of getting an appropriation-in-aid in respect of that particular service. It would seem to me, in the case of appeals going before the referee, that those carrying the appeals and losing them should at least bear some part of the expense which the State incurs in the hearing of the appeals. I would be glad to have some information from the Minister as to the number of appeals carried to this particular officer in respect of the Finance Act of 1909 and the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919, and, if so, what has been the result of the appeals. It may be that the Minister is not in a position to give me the information now, but it seems to me, in connection with a lot of these Acts which have been taken over from the British, as well as in connection with a lot of the services carried on under the old regime and taken over, it is very questionable whether the State or the taxpayers are getting value for the money that is expended on them. For that reason I would like if, in connection with this particular sub-head, the Minister would give me some more detailed information than is to be found in the Estimates.

I would like to have some information from the Minister with regard to the grant of £1,000 which, under sub-head C, it is proposed to give as a grant-in-aid towards the expenses of the Royal Zoological Society of Ireland. In view of the fact that the members of this House, and particularly of the other House, have become so humanitarian, I do not think that the Dáil should be asked to vote this money for the purpose of keeping the wild animals confined to the narrow limits of their present dominion. I think they should be sent back to their native regions. I do not think money should be spent on a purpose like this.

Why not let some of the lions loose?

I would like to know from the Minister whether he considers that the proposed grant-in-aid of £500 to the Irish Folklore Institute is really sufficient. There are no details given in connection with this grant-in-aid, but I suppose part of it would be applied to cover the salary of one permanent guide. I suggest— I can only speak from what experts say—that there appears to be a great danger of the remnants of folklore in the country still being lost. As the Minister has said these remnants of folklore will require to be captured within this generation. Folklore is carried on through ordinary popular tradition and through the medium of the Irish language, and it is extremely important that it should be collected at once. If the Institute is going to pay any attention at all to this work then it ought to be done properly and even if a few hundred pounds more had to be given for that purpose I suggest it would be a wise economy to vote that extra sum, and get all the material that is available collected as rapidly as possible. No one is going to devote serious attention to work for which they are not receiving a living wage. Work of this kind calls for the exercise of a certain amount of critical skill. A certain amount of training and capacity is required to do this work properly. I suggest that the Vote be increased by at least a few hundred pounds more.

Deputy MacEntee asked about the grant for the Incorporated Law Society. The grant is by way of assisting the Society to meet the expenses in carrying out its disciplinary duties, which were imposed by the Solicitors (Ireland) Act, 1898. The amount which is voted is roughly about two-thirds of the expenses incurred by the Society in carrying out these duties. The Society is, as the Deputy has stated, a voluntary body, to which solicitors may or may not belong, as they choose. Nevertheless, this voluntary body is charged with the responsibility of keeping the register, and the responsibility for taking certain action where there has been misbehaviour on the part of a solicitor, and which may require his removal from the roll of the Society. Therefore, the Society is carrying out duties which are useful, not only to its own members, but are of value to the public. It is carrying out duties which are for the protection of the public, and consequently there seems to be a case for continuing the grant.

With reference to the grant to the National Theatre Society, there is this difference between the Abbey Theatre and the Gate Theatre, that the Abbey Theatre is precluded from playing modern English drama. It can only produce plays by Irish authors, or plays which, I think, were written before the year 1800 in English, and plays which are translated from the works of European authors. There is a considerable number of plays which, under its patent, the Abbey Theatre is not entitled to perform. The Gate Theatre has the choice of any play that it chooses. The object of those who have established the Gate Theatre is to give the public of Dublin the opportunity of seeing plays they otherwise would not see, and seeing them produced in a highly capable and artistic manner. It has no special responsibility for the encouragement of drama relating to Ireland. I do not say that the Gate Theatre will not provide a stimulus for writers. I think it is most likely it will. I also think it cannot be denied that the directors of the Abbey Theatre have in recent years made a few unfortunate mistakes in regard to the selection of plays submitted, and which well merited production. They were refused production, but I do not know that any institution which has been in existence for a considerable time will not make some errors, and I would not be inclined to take the grant, or any part of it, from the Abbey Theatre, because, in my view, plays were rejected which ought to have been accepted.

I have no doubt that the work of the Gate Theatre will be good for the Abbey Theatre. Undoubtedly it is a fact that the work of the Abbey Theatre has made it possible for an institution like the Gate Theatre to be established, because without it there would not have been the actors or an interest in acting. For instance, a few years ago it enabled the Drama League, from which in a sense the Gate Theatre arose, to be carried on. I think a lesser sum than £1,000 would not be of very much assistance to an institution such as the Abbey Theatre. My own personal view would be against giving any additional money for the encouragement of drama in English. If any additional money is to be provided at any future time for the encouragement of the writing or production of plays I think it ought to be given for the writing and production of plays in Irish.

With regard to the research grant, the total amount of the grant under the sub-head last year was allocated, but certain students may have found employment and not earned the full grant. I cannot at the moment tell the Deputy whether the full amount allocated was expended, but if it was not expended it would be due to some of the students having ceased carrying on research work and having entered into some employment. With regard to the final sub-head to which Deputy MacEntee referred, if the Deputy will address a Parliamentary question to me with regard to the number of cases heard I would deal with the matter. This much I will say, that the work carried out by this official is of a judicial nature, especially in cases where big sums may be involved, and it is not work one could have done very cheaply. Deputy Doyle asked a question which was not inappropriate in regard to the Zoological Society. I think the people here are not as bad yet as the people in Great Britain, where owing to the operations of the Society for the prevention of Cruelty to Animals it has become almost impossible to feed the animals in the Zoo as they ought to be fed lest the public should be shocked. Here at any rate the animals are not likely to die from unsuitable feeding as the result of the intervention of people imbued with an excess of humanitarian feeling.

With reference to the Folklore Institute, I do not think it is proposed to employ any full-time person. For the present the work of the Society will be directed by Mr. De Largy, who is a member of the staff of University College, Dublin. He has had special training in folk lore work and is very interested in it. He has done a great deal of folk lore work. Mr. De Largy will be assisted by voluntary effort. After all, collection can best be done by great numbers of people who will work during their holiday periods on special excursions rather than by one or two people who might be specially employed as collectors and recorders. It may be that in some instances some assistance will be given by way of meeting expenses to people who will carry out this work of recording, but I do not think the work that has to be done could be done on the basis of paid labour. When the institute has been at work a year or two, and we will see what the needs are, and what can be done with the present sum, and whether or not it would be desirable to allocate a further amount.

Vote put and agreed to.
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