Vol. 35 No. 3
I move:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £77,427 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtais.
That a sum not exceeding £77,427 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Oireachtas.
Would you, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, accept an amendment from me now to refer this Estimate back for reconsideration, or to reduce one of the sub-heads by a token Vote of £100? Notice was not given of the intention to take this Estimate until this morning, and it was not possible to table amendments in the usual way.
I am prepared to accept an amendment.
With regard to the sub-head C—Salaries and Allowances of Seanadóirí, £22,830—I move to reduce the amount by £100. I do so in order to afford the Dáil another opportunity of expressing its opinion of the utility of the Second Chamber, or, at any rate, of the utility of the Second Chamber as now constituted. I take it that we can decline to vote salaries, in which case the Second Chamber will automatically come to an end.
Not necessarily.
The Minister may have greater faith in human nature than I have, but I think its activity will come to an end, if not its utility. Deputies on this side of the House are opposed to the granting of money to keep the Seanad as at present constituted in existence. The more experience we have of the working of the present Parliamentary system here the more convinced we are that this £22,830 which it is proposed to take this year for Seanad Eireann will be wasted. The Seanad has become very largely a reproduction of the Dáil, and the same considerations that enter into the making of decisions here enter into the making of decisions there. Questions are discussed and decided by the elected representatives of the people from various angles. They are again discussed from the same angles by other representatives not directly elected by the people, in the Second Chamber. The number of occasions upon which serious flaws have been found in Bills which passed through the Dáil has been very few. Deputies will not be able to indicate more than one or two occasions upon which amendments of any serious import came back to them from the Seanad to Bills passed here. We think that the money now being spent in providing the salaries, allowances and travelling expenses of members of that body could be much more usefully expended in remitting taxation or in increasing some one or other of the existing social services. We ask the Dáil to support the reduction of this particular sub-head by the amount indicated in the amendment, and by doing so to give expression to its agreement with the views which I have advanced.
We are also of opinion that the membership of this Chamber could be reduced without in any way impairing its efficiency or ability to deal with the business which comes before it. I am aware that under the Constitution there will be an automatic reduction in the number of Deputies prior to the next general election, but that reduction cannot possibly exclude more than ten or twelve from the present number. In our opinion, we could effectively reduce the membership of the Dáil by at least one-third.
That would require legislation.
In this case I am certain that if we refuse to vote the money the reduction will be automatically effected.
I hope Fianna Fáil will not lose the lot.
That is not likely to happen. As a matter of fact, the one-third who would disappear in that case would be the one-third who will disappear at the general election in any case. The reason why we want to have a vote in connection with the Estimate is because we think money is being wasted on the Oireachtas. The cost of maintaining the machinery of government could be substantially reduced and the efficiency of the machine increased in the process.
There is just another matter to which I want to make reference. A committee consisting of members of the Dáil and Seanad took into consideration during the year, amongst other matters, the matter of travelling expenses. The committee was not satisfied that an adequate effort had been made by the Department of Finance to secure that full travelling facilities would be provided for Deputies or that the cost of the existing travelling facilities would be lowered. Up to quite recently, the State was paying full first-class fares for Deputies and Senators travelling to and from their constituencies to Dublin. Recently there has been some reduction granted by the railway company, but the committee was of opinion, in the first instance, that Deputies should be given travelling facilities not merely to their own constituency, but in their own constituency, and some members of the committee were of opinion that they should be given general travelling facilities through out the country. Some members of the committee, particularly some members associated with the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, were very strongly of the view that these increased facilities could be secured without any increase in the total cost if a serious effort were made by the Department of Finance to secure them. The viewpoint of those who advocated the increased travelling facilities was that Deputies come here not merely as representatives of particular counties, but to deal with the business of the country as a whole, and that the vote of one Deputy has as much effect in arriving at a decision as the vote of another Deputy.
If a matter arises here concerning Haulbowline dockyards, or the Shannon scheme, or the flooding of rivers in the West, or the electrical development of the Erne, or any similar matter, Deputies not familiar with the problem might find it necessary to pay a personal visit to the place concerned for the purpose of carrying out an inspection, and satisfying themselves that certain proposals submitted to the Dáil were good ones. Deputies making visits of that kind would be doing public work arising out of their duties as Deputies, and they should not be required to pay their own travelling expenses. That view was favourably considered by the committee, which was representative of all parties and of the Seanad, which was not so directly concerned, however, and a certain recommendation was made. I should like to know if the Minister has given that recommendation any consideration, and if it is proposed to take any action in the matter.
Deputies on this side of the House are also of opinion that the staff of the Oireachtas appears to be very large, and they are not convinced that the work required to be done necessitates a staff of the size at present provided. I do not know who is responsible for determining what staff is required to carry on the work of the Oireachtas, and I should like to know if the Minister has ever given the matter his own consideration. We would not wish to see the efficiency of the staff impaired in any way, and if economies would result in any diminution in the services available we would not be prepared to advocate them, but we do think that economy could be effected without impairing the efficiency of the staff, if a serious effort were made to do so.
These are all the matters I wish to refer to, except to raise an objection to the voting of £250 as a grant to the Empire Parliamentary Association. I cannot see what possible benefit can come to the people of this country by the fact that we expend this £250 per year in maintaining the Empire Parliamentary Association. That money is certainly wasted, and if it were devoted even to the purpose of giving employment to one family in Dublin it would be much better spent than in this particular manner.
I wish to join with Deputy Lemass in opposing sub-head C of this Estimate. I voted before for the reduction of salaries of members of the Seanad and, to be consistent, I am bound to vote against this Estimate. In the present position of the country economy is essential, and while it might be suspected, in view of the by-election which is coming on, that Deputies on the Fianna Fáil Benches were trying to indulge in a little propaganda, I, as one who represents a large section of the community detached from both Parties, think that the cost in connection with the Seanad is more than this country can bear. I agree with Deputy Lemass that there should be a reduction in the membership of the Seanad and the Dáil. However, that is a matter for future legislation, but I think the time has arrived when serious effort should be made to reduce the cost of both the Dáil and the Seanad.
As I said on several occasions, we are simply a poor country. We are not the great people we are supposed to be. We are no better and no worse than other people. I know there are at present in this country thousands of people on the verge of starvation. I, also, know there are thousands of farmers who, notwithstanding all that has been said about university education in connection with agricultural industry, find it very hard to live. We want in this country legislation dealing with the ordinary people, and for the benefit of the ordinary people in the country.
The Deputy is getting very far away from the Estimate.
Legislation brings in Estimates.
Estimates are not supposed to bring in legislation.
Unless there had been an Act of the Oireachtas passed we would not be discussing this Vote here to-day.
If this Vote was not passed there would be no Acts.
I certainly agree with Deputy Lemass that every pound that could be saved should be saved. He referred to the £250 voted for the Empire Parliamentary Association. There again we are aping after other countries trying to copy them in things which are no use to this country. It would be better if we looked after our own people here. I certainly say there could be a saving in both the Dáil and Seanad of £27,000 a year. The cost of the Dáil and Seanad, both in salaries and travelling expenses, is somewhere in the neighbourhood of £87,000 per annum. Between £27,000 and £29,000 of that money could be saved, and that amount would provide employment for many of our people, at present unemployed.
I know this Vote will pass because there is a majority in favour of it, but the time will come when Deputies will have to face the people of this country. They will have to face them at the next general election and, then, some awkward questions will be asked as to why they voted these sums of money and did not try to effect economies. It may be that the people have not the opportunity at the moment for enforcing their views, but the time will come when they will have that opportunity. I believe it would be well Deputies should recognise the fact that it is the people who count and that their duty is to the people. We are sent here to carry out, as far as possible, duties entrusted to us and one of these duties is to see that public monies are spent to the best advantage. As a member of this House I believe that the monies that are being voted, especially in connection with the Seanad, could be more usefully employed in other ways. I shall, therefore, vote for the reduction of this Estimate.
I want to draw the Minister's attention to the item here under sub-head E. I notice that messengers are employed in the office here at a wage of 31/- per week. I should like to know if people employed in that way are full-time and whether it is in keeping with the dignity of this assembly and the Oireachtas generally, of which we hear a good deal occasionally, that people should be employed at that rate of wage. I notice that the same rate obtains for an attendant in another part of the House and I should like to have some information on that point. At least we ought to give an example here to employers in the country, generally, and if we demand full time service from people we should pay them something approximate to what would be necessary to enable them to live.
I could very well understand the enthusiasm of the Opposition with regard to economy if they were sincere in that respect. It is in their hands to create great economy in the State. If they would only change their attitude towards the Constitution we could save thousands of pounds, and we could even work with a lesser number of Deputies in the Dáil, but so long as Deputy Lemass has one attitude here——
Is this in order, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle?
It is perfectly in order.
The Deputy must keep to the Estimate.
Deputies opposite call for economy. I hold that in their own hands they have the power to accomplish economy if they would only help to uphold the Constitution in the proper manner. The amount of money that could be saved to the State by doing away with the Seanad, and reducing the membership of the Dáil, would be only a mere bagatelle in comparison to the thousands of pounds that are wasted owing to the attitude of Deputies opposite towards the Constitution.
I again ask if this is in order?
The Deputy must keep to the Estimate.
I bow to your ruling, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle. You are always fair and most impartial in the Chair. I regret deeply I cannot continue my line of argument, but there will be another opportunity of showing the humbug of the attitude of the Opposition in this matter.
It is a pity that Deputy Sheehy's transcendental eloquence is not availed of in a venue where it would be more appreciated. I support Deputy Lemass's demand that the Government should make some effort to effect economies under sub-head C. I need not go into the arguments in favour of that course, because they were discussed rather fully when, by a majority of two votes, a Bill to effect a considerable reduction in Senators' allowances was defeated. If that measure had been left to a free vote of the House and if members of the Government Party had been allowed to express themselves freely upon it I have no doubt that it would have been carried. In any case, the fact that sixty votes were registered in favour of it was a clear indication to the Ministry that there is a strong opinion in the country, which is reflected in the Dáil, that economies could be effected under this heading.
The Minister has now an opportunity to state whether the Government intends to take any steps in this matter, or whether they will allow this sub-head to stand as it is this year. Apart from political and bye-election necessities, I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some assurance that this matter will have the serious attention that I think all Deputies are really anxious it should have. If he does not do that, perhaps he will bear in mind Deputy Coburn's warning, that even if all goes well in the bye-election, there is still a general election to be faced, and that the people will then probably have something to say on the question.
I think that it is very difficult to discuss this question at all and remain in order, because we are not, I suppose, allowed to talk for or against legislation on an estimate, although Deputy Lemass succeeded in asking for legislation. The numbers of members and the amount of payment are determined by legislation, so that there is no alternative for the Government but to present the Estimate as it stands, and I think there is no real alternative for the Dáil but to pass it. If the Dáil does not want to have this expenditure it should amend the law.
I do not profess to regard the present system of electing the Seanad as an ideal system, but it is very hard to find the ideal system, especially, I think, in the present state of affairs politically. It might be, if we could get parties to look at it in a calmer and in a more impartial way than the question of the Seanad has yet been looked at, that a better method of electing the Seanad could be discovered. However, the great majority of countries have second chambers, and I am satisfied that these countries are not entirely mistaken in the notion that there is real value in a second chamber as a balancing chamber, and in certain circumstances as a delaying chamber —something that will prevent the elected House from rushing ahead in heat or in party passion with a proposal which would not really have the approval of the country.
On the question of travelling expenses, it is impossible to get all sorts of extra travelling facilities without extra charge, and I am sure that the Deputy who advocated it is quite well aware of that. The railways have given certain concessions which they had refused to give for a long time. They gave these concessions, not as a result of pressure from the Department of Finance, but as a result of the pressure of the competition of the 'buses, and if we had not had that change in circumstances I believe that it would have remained impossible to obtain concessions from them. If a majority of Deputies want all sorts of additional travelling expenses, undoubtedly they can be provided, but they can only be provided at extra cost. I do not think that these extra travelling facilities that are being asked for would be justified, more particularly the sort that would be involved in enabling Deputies to take trips to Haulbowline or other places to see things for themselves. As a matter of fact, unless a Deputy were an engineer he would not be a bit wiser after visiting Haulbowline than before, and I do not think that we could accept the view at all that Deputies would be better able to discharge their duties, or better able to decide things that would be put before them, as a result of taking excursions all over the country.
With regard to travelling within Deputies' constituencies, the case against the suggestion is not as clear, but, on the other hand, I think it would be possible to have a very great increase in expenditure there, so great as not to be justified by the benefits that would be obtained. It would be impossible, I think, to check that expenditure in any way, and some of it would be entirely frivolous, as I think would be the expenditure on these excursions on the part of Deputies, in order that they might see things for themselves. I went three times to see the Shannon scheme in operation, but I am not now better qualified to vote on anything in connection with that scheme as a result of anything I saw, and I think that is the position generally.
The staff required is really decided upon by the Ceann Comhairle in consultation with the Department of Finance. On many occasions the requirements of the House have been reviewed, and it would be impossible to reduce the staff without reducing the service which is available. As a matter of fact, the service available is not a matter of mere convenience to Deputies; it is often of real consequence to the work of the House, because if the staff work of the House were badly done the legislative results which would be achieved might be defective in many instances, and I think to attempt to cut down the staff beyond what the Ceann Comhairle and the representative of the Department of Finance on various occasions found to be necessary would not be wise.
The amount voted to the Empire Parliamentary Association results in the provision of the Journal of the Association for members of the Dáil. I think that money is well spent. Perhaps some Deputies may not be willing to read anything of that nature which they receive, and, of course, as far as they are concerned, the expenditure is wasted. If you have a Deputy who will take up that line almost any expenditure aiming at helping him to discharge his duties efficiently would be wasted. I think it will be found useful to Deputies who read it, and that the information and the suggestions in it will enable them to do their duty in this House better than otherwise would be the case.
Does the Minister not know quite well that the majority of Deputies do not even open these books, and does he not think that the purpose would be equally well served by making one or two copies available in the library?
I do not think so. Whatever chance there might be for a substantial number of Deputies reading them only a few would read them if they were simply placed in the library. With regard to the question about the payment of messengers, Deputy Murphy is surely aware that the messenger who is paid 31/- is paid 31/- splus bonus?
In connection with the purchase of books—this is really a matter for the Ceann Comhairle—it seems that insufficient attention is being paid to books dealing with the history of this country, and having special reference to it. There is a tendency to devote all the money which is at the librarian's disposal to books dealing with procedure and such matters, which, no doubt, are very important, but a definite effort should be made to have all the really valuable works dealing with Irish history and antiquities in the library, as well as modern publications. As a matter of fact, some of the periodicals, while they may convey information to Deputies as ordinary readers, are practically useless to them as a help in carrying out their duties efficiently.
I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will be quite anxious to discuss the matter which the Deputy has raised with any Deputy who will meet him. I suggest that the best way would be to take it up with the Ceann Comhairle.
And with the Library Committee.
Yes.
