Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Jun 1930

Vol. 35 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—I.O.C. Dispute.

Mr. Davin

The matter which was the subject of a question addressed to the Minister for Industry and Commerce by me to-day, has been raised for the sole purpose of giving the Minister an opportunity of informing the House and the country what he has done so far to bring together the contending parties in the dispute. At the outset I want to dissociate myself and the members of my party, and also the trade union, of which the strikers are members, from any armed attacks that may have taken place on 'buses of the Irish Omnibus Company. The union of which the strikers are members has repeatedly advised the men to conduct the strike on the ordinary lines of peaceful picketing. Strange as it may appear, that does not seem to be the attitude of the opposite side. I have here a weapon, a baton, I suppose, one would call it, which was captured from a strikebreaker in Limerick a few days ago. It was his reply to those on strike when they asked him to join them. I would invite the Minister for Justice in particular to examine this dangerous weapon, and to see if it has any resemblance to the official weapons which have been used from time to time—I am glad to say, not recently—for the purpose of batoning the public when the necessity arises. I produce that weapon in order to show that the people who are a party to the strike on the other side are not apparently encouraging the strike-breakers to conduct the strike on peaceful lines.

On several occasions, both here and outside. I raised the question of the failure of the Minister and the Government to regulate and control the railway transport services. In doing so, I pointed out that the employees of the 'bus companies, and particularly those of this company, have been brought before the courts and fined, and rightly so, for overcrowding or exceeding the speed limit laid down by law.

I quoted one case of a driver named Donnelly who, inside a period of four months, was fined on six occasions for exceeding the speed limit. He was forced by officials of the company to exceed the speed limit, because he was given only a certain time to do the journey from Dublin to Sligo. In order to carry out these orders he was obliged to exceed the speed limit.

An Ceann Comhairle

What has that to do with the particular matter in question?

Mr. Davin

I contend that it has a bearing on the issue involved in the dispute. The individual was fined but the company was allowed to go scot free. The company forced this badly-paid driver to agree to deductions being made from his wages to meet the amount of the fines, and when the individual thought fit to go to his union about the matter, he was instantly transferred to another area where it would be impossible for him to carry on his work with the company, as he was a married man with four children, so that his transfer was tantamount to an indirect dismissal.

Mr. McGilligan

Are we now going in to the merits of the dispute?

Mr. Davin

I do not propose to do so, but I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to quote only one other case to show what has led up to the dispute.

Mr. McGilligan

Therefore it is the merits we are at. I refuse to discuss the merits.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the merits. There is no one here who is responsible for replying on that matter. The only thing that the Minister can do when he comes to reply is to deal with what the Deputy asks in his question—namely, what efforts he has made to bring about arbitration or a meeting of the parties. No matter what the Deputy says about the merits, he does not get nearer to that point.

Mr. Davin

I think that it is my duty to explain briefly what led up to the dispute so that the Minister can give an explanation of his failure to bring the parties together to deal with matters which are ordinarily dealt with by his Department.

Mr. McGilligan

Is the Deputy going to frame his argument in this way: That the men have a good case, that I have failed to bring certain people together and that I should recognise the men's case, or is his argument that I have been influenced by the merits on the other side? That has nothing to do with my efforts to bring the parties together and I am not going to answer that. If I have to arbitrate on this the less I hear about the merits exparte the better.

Mr. Davin

I am not so foolish as to expect the Minister when replying to express an opinion on the merits of the dispute, but that should not prevent me from saying what led up to the dispute.

Mr. McGilligan

Under the guise of asking me why I did not get certain parties together the Deputy is going to state the case for one side, whereas the case for the other side will not be stated.

Mr. Davin

The right of a trade unionist to join any union he likes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid we are getting into the merits of the dispute. When the Deputy gave notice in regard to this matter the Ceann Comhairle stated clearly the practice adopted here in regard to trade disputes and mentioned that in almost every case it is the practice of the Minister's Department to carry on arbitration proceedings and to endeavour to get the parties together. That is the extent to which the Minister is involved here and, clearly, we cannot have a discussion on the merits. The more we discuss them the less likelihood is there of the Minister carrying out the functions which are his.

Mr. Davin

I do not propose therefore to go into the details, I accept the ruling of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

I agree, of course, that the Deputy must have some preamble.

Mr. Davin

The bus company involved in the dispute is admittedly a railway-owned and controlled bus company.

Mr. McGilligan

Admitted by whom? Is it admitted by the Company?

Mr. Davin

The Chairman of the Great Southern Railways Company, Sir Walter Nugent, at the last general meeting of the shareholders stated, and it was published in the Press, that £85,000 of the paid-up capital of the company was owned by the shareholders of the Great Southern Company.

Mr. McGilligan

This is argument.

Mr. Davin

It is not argument, it is a fact.

Mr. McGilligan

It is a statement which the Deputy is using as an argument to prove certain things.

Mr. Davin

Three of the four directors of the bus company are directors of the Great Southern Company. In a dispute in which the same union was involved in 1929, namely, the railway shops dispute, in which the shop workers of the Great Southern Company were involved, the Minister went so far— I invite contradiction on this—as to invite both parties to submit the matter to arbitration. He had some reason, I understand, to think or suspect that the union which represented the shop men was not disposed to accept arbitration. He delivered an ultimatum to the members of the same union to the effect that if they did not submit to arbitration in a short period he would proclaim his position to the country and justify his position in trying to force them to adopt arbitration. Now, what is he going to do in this particular ease? That is the only reason which I have to offer for putting the question on the Order Paper to-day. I hope that the Minister will explain his attitude up to the present from that point of view.

Mr. Esmonde

Before the Minister replies, I would like him, if he is taking steps to bring about a meeting of the parties, to bear in mind the fact that the members of the union, for whom Deputy Davin has been speaking, and the drivers of the omnibuses have been engaged for many years in pirating passengers after hours in Dublin. I mention that in view of the fact that the Taxicab Owners and Drivers' Association have suffered considerable losses as a result of that illegal and irregular poaching by bus drivers in Dublin.

Mr. Davin

The Deputy may be under a misapprehension. I am not a member of the National Union of Railwaymen but of the Railway Clerks' Association.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

The House and the country would like to hear from the Minister what efforts he has taken, within the powers vested in him and his Department, to bring about a settlement or to get the parties together. Everybody knows that the dispute is detrimental to the interests of the country and may lead to further and greater trouble. We are particularly anxious to know what the Minister has done.

Mr. McGilligan

That last point is the only one that I can answer. I have mentioned that the reason that I did not take steps to meet the company was that I had no compulsory powers. Deputy O'Connell wants to know what I have done within my limit of powers. The only power I have is to invite both parties to come together. I invited both parties to come together more than once and I can do no more.

Mr. O'Connell

Has the Minister got any response from both or either of the parties?

Mr. McGilligan

I got an acceptance from one side and a refusal from the other. If I say any more now, I would have to go into the merits of the case and I would have to say why one party will not come to a meeting.

Mr. Davin

Will the Minister say whether it is a fact that in the railway shops dispute he threatened the men with arbitration and stated that he would justify his position before the country in forcing them to accept arbitration? Is the Minister prepared now to adopt the same attitude towards the directors of this company, seeing that the men have accepted his invitation?

Mr. McGilligan

I do not remember exactly what took place on that occasion. There was an occasion on which a statement was addressed to both parties to the effect that unless both parties met in conference I would publish the fact that I had invited both parties and that I would let each party, or whichever party did not attend, justify its action to the public. I only say the same thing has now been done. It has been promulgated. The parties have been invited and one party has refused to come.

Mr. O'Connell

I think it would be only fair for the Minister to state which party agreed to come.

Mr. McGilligan

The workers.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until Friday at 10.30 a.m.