Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 1930

Vol. 35 No. 7

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

The President

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £39,969 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta. (9 agus 10 Geo. V, c. 58; Uimh. 16 de 1924; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928.)

That a sum not exceeding £39,969 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry. (9 and 10 Geo. V, c. 58; No. 16 of 1924; and No. 34 of 1928.)

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Hogan)

The total net amount of the Vote is £59,969, showing a net increase of £3,156, the main increase being in the provision for land acquisition (sub-head C 1) where a sum of £10,000 is proposed as against £7,000 last year. Sub-head A—salaries, wages and allowances—speaks for itself, and so does sub-head B— travelling expenses. Sub-head C 1 is a big sub-head—£10,000. The provision under this head is made by way of a grant-in-aid in order that unexpended balances may be carried forward. This arrangement has been found to be necessary in view of the difficulty of forecasting the length of time which may be required in any particular case for negotiation and conveyance. During the year 1929-1930 5,132 acres were acquired by purchase and 992, practically 1,000 acres, were leased, making a total of 44,256 acres acquired for State afforestation up to 31st March last. Negotiations are in progress in regard to approximately 10,000 more acres.

Sub-head C 2, amounting to £43,000, deals with cultural operations, maintenance, etc. Foresters' and caretakers' wages amount to £4,000. This item is necessarily increasing with the addition of fresh centres. Foresters are grouped into three classes, varying with the experience and seniority of the individual concerned and the importance of the centre under his charge. There are at present employed five Grade I. foresters, 14 Grade II. foresters, and twelve foremen. Maintenance comes to £9,800. In this item is included £5,300 for labour which will be required for the cleaning and after-care of areas which have already been planted. The sum of £4,000 for materials will be expended mainly on fencing—wire, netting, stakes, etc.—and tools. Cultural operations—labour—come to £24,700. This item covers the wages of workmen required for nursery work, the preparation of ground for planting, and for the actual planting operations. There is a miscellaneous item of £1,000, which includes various items, such as manures, cartage and nursery ploughing. I do not think any other item calls for any remark. The Appropriations-in-Aid speak for themselves. The total area of land acquired by the Department for forestry purposes up to end of March last is 44,256 acres. Of this 31,277 acres were purchased; 9,165 acres leased, and 3,814 acres were transferred from the Department of Defence. The total area planted or replanted by the Department to date is 23,332 acres, of which 3,041 acres were planted in the past season. Of the leased lands 2,333 acres have not yet been taken over. For the purpose of administration the forest lands are divided in 34 forest units, each of which is in charge of a local officer. The Forestry Act was brought into operation on 1st April last.

Mr. Moore

I think that the Minister should tell us whether the Department intends to publish any further report. The last report was published for the year 1928. It is now June, 1930, and we have not the report for 1929 yet. I think it should be the aim of a large Department which is due to publish an annual report to have that report out before the Estimates are discussed. It is really very hard to say anything on most of these Estimates unless there is some statement from the Department concerned as to what progress they have made and what their activities have been during the year.

I do not think any Deputy can be satisfied that forestry is being carried on as satisfactorily as is desirable. I think it is a fact that the area under trees in the Saorstát is at present no more than it was when the Saorstát was established in 1922. That is a very extraordinary state of things, seeing that the Free State's percentage of area under woodlands is nearly the lowest of any country in the world. The figure of 23,000 acres planted in eight years shows a very low rate of progress, and before this Estimate is passed I suggest that the Minister should give some assurance that the rate of planting will be expedited.

The present rate of planting, if continued, taking into account the fact that clearing has been very rapid in recent years, would mean that soon there would actually be a decrease in the area under timber. Of course the Forestry Act, if it be administered as intended, will check the clearing of trees, but my information is that up to the present there has not been much severity in the enforcement of the Act, that permits are granted very freely to timber merchants and that it is only a matter of making an application to get a permit. Every Deputy would like to see greater energy put into the work of increasing plantations, and I hope that the Minister will be able to make some statement that will cause the position to look more satisfactory than it looks at the moment.

Mr. T. Murphy

I think, with Deputy Moore, that we need a far more detailed statement in support of this Vote than we have received from the Minister. So far as many of us are concerned our only knowledge of the operations, or perhaps the existence of the Forestry Department, is obtained each year when we come to consider this Vote. In justice to the Minister, I should say that it is very unlike his policy generally to permit the extreme slowness and delay that characterise the whole operations of this Department to continue, and I thought this Vote would provide him with an opportunity of making a statement as to what his general policy with regard to afforestation is. I remember seeing some weeks ago a report of a meeting of a county committee of agriculture at which some scheme was discussed involving an offer to landholders to encourage afforestation. I am not quite clear as to the details of the scheme, but it appeared to me from reading the report that it would not carry us very far if we were in earnest in regard to reafforestation.

The constituency I come from is peculiarly suitable for afforestation, but the people there are quite unaware of the existence of the Department except when the annual discussion on this Vote comes up. I would like the Minister to give us some definite statement as to his intentions. We are very often asked to produce some constructive schemes to help to relieve unemployment. A general policy of reafforestation would go a long way to relieve unemployment, apart altogether from its value in other directions. I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that in the constituency of West Cork two or three years ago several offers of land were made to the Department and they could have been examined with a view to ascertaining their suitability. I have heard nothing in connection with the matter since. In the extreme west end of the constituency a very acute problem exists, of which the Minister is quite well aware, and the newspapers have been discussing that problem and have suggested that afforestation should be undertaken on a fairly extensive scale with a view to dealing with that position.

On this short notice there is not an opportunity of going into this matter as fully as I would like, but I think the Minister ought to inform us as to the exact extent of the operations for reafforestation that are taking place. I have a general idea that they are confined to one or two counties and that the advantages of the application of a policy of this kind generally have been so far overlooked. I am not impressed by the way in which the Department is managed. I do not know what the Minister's views are, but I think we should have a much more exhaustive statement in defence of the Vote than the Minister has given us.

Mr. G. Wolfe

I can see several difficulties in the way of getting good land for afforestation, because, as we all know, there is a demand for land on all sides and, naturally, all the good land is required. If you want to have good timber of any value it must be planted on good land. There is not much use in planting timber for paying purposes on poor land, unless a few exceptional kinds. That is my experience.

I think there are places where replanting might be done, in places where woods have been cut down in derelict demesnes, where the landowners, before selling out, cut down all the trees and practically destroyed not only the demesnes, but the appearance of the country. I have noticed on motoring through the country that such a thing as that has been done in a good many places. These are places that I think might be taken in hands. They might be replanted and have valuable timber grown on them with great advantage to the country. Except for the purpose of giving employment, I do not think it is a good thing to take up poor, boggy land for the purpose of planting. The trees grown on such land will be stunted and most of them will die. Unless fairly good land can be got, without interfering with the enlargement of holdings or the division of land, I think it is unwise to spend money on planting except so far as it helps to give employment. There are a good many places where planting might be carried out with advantage to the country, with the added advantage of providing some of the unemployed with work.

Dr. Ryan

On looking over this Estimate, one finds that more than half the entire provision in it goes to labour. Sub-heads C 2 and C 3 indicate that a sum of £30,000 is paid in wages to labour out of a total Vote of £59,000. Therefore, more than fifty per cent. goes directly in wages to labour. I think the same thing could not be said of any other Estimate that we have to consider. Considering the times that we have in this country and the scarcity of work, there is a big argument for forestry, from the point of view of relieving unemployment, even if we had no other argument. As the matter does not come within the province of the Minister for Agriculture alone, I think on the question of doing more in that direction, of relieving unemployment, that we should make an appeal to the Executive Council as a whole. Already to-day I referred to the writings of the late Arthur Griffith in the early Sinn Fein days when speaking about an Irish mercantile marine. Forestry was, I think, one of the big ideals that Arthur Griffith held out to us years ago when speaking of what a free Ireland could do. He showed the great faith that he had in the planting of this country, and in order to test the faith of individual Sinn Feiners throughout the country as well as in their enthusiasm. Arbour Day was established—that was a voluntary planting of trees by the people throughout the country in or about the 1st November each year.

Now it is an extraordinary thing that having got the power to plant trees as much as we like, we have not made the use we should have made of that power. To the casual observer, at any rate, there does not appear to be nearly as much land under timber, even under young timber, taking the country as a whole, now as there was before the Free State came into being. It would appear that there has been more land cleared of timber within the last ten years than there has been land planted. The Minister gave figures about the amount of land acquired during the period since the Free State was established. He also gave the number of acres planted. If possible, I would like to get from the Minister figures with regard to the amount of land cleared of timber. Apart from finding out whether there is more land now under timber than there was at the time the Free State was established, I would like if the Minister could give us some figures with regard to the land that was cleared of timber by the Forestry Branch, to know what was their experience with regard to costings and so on and whether or not afforestation can be made an economic proposition for the country. If the Minister has any figures of that sort, I am sure the House would be glad to know what the experience of the Forestry Branch has been.

Mr. Brennan

What appears to me to be the greatest drawback in connection with tree-planting, so far as the Forestry Branch is concerned, is that we are going in for doing the thing on too big a scale. What I mean is that the Forestry Branch want to get areas of large dimensions before they will pass them. I think if the Department could frame a scheme whereby they would agree in the case of farmers or landowners prepared to give one, two or three acres of suitable land for planting, to plant that land for them, the farmers and landowners agreeing to look after the planting for a certain number of years, it would meet a lot of our present wants. We have in this country a lot of high hills, and some of them would grow timber very well. We have some very low-lying ground, but we have not very many acres to give for planting. I think, until some scheme is devised by which the planting will be done free of charge for the owner, that in this matter of afforestation this country will never reach the point that it ought to.

Mr. Daly

In my district there has been a lot of forestry work going on during the last seven or eight years. The people there appreciate it very much. It provides a lot of valuable employment, especially in the winter months when there is no other employment to be had. Deputy Ryan made a comparison between the amount of timber cut during the last ten years and the quantity of planting carried out in the same period. There was a lot of timber taken out of the country over the last ten years. I know myself that it was prematurely cut. It was cut because the opportunity presented itself to do so. There was as much timber cut in the country during that time as would not have been cut during the next twenty years were it not for the opportunity that presented itself of doing so. I suggest to the Department that more nurseries should be established so that we would not be under the necessity of importing foreign trees and, incidentally, importing disease with them. The setting up of more nurseries would provide additional employment to the big amount already given. In my district there is still a good deal of waste land that could be acquired. There is a lot of land between Fermoy and Castletownroche and Rath-cormac that, if acquired and planted, would provide much-needed employment. We are very grateful for the amount of employment that has been given in the district during the last five or six years. The timber planted is growing up and the countryside is becoming more beautiful every day. I would like to see more afforestation work carried out. It is reproductive work.

Mr. J. White

And more money spent in Cork.

Mr. Daly

That is one of the reasons. Deputy White knows very well how my heart feels, and I know all about Deputy White. It would be well if the Minister would, as was pointed out by Deputy Brennan, allow the acquisition of smaller plots of land for the purpose of afforestation. In my district, a man who has 300 or 400 acres of land, and who is in arrears with his rent, is prepared to give half the land over for afforestation, but it appears the Forestry Department will not plant anything under 500 acres or 600 acres. I hope the Forestry Department will take over the place I have in mind. I beg to tell the Deputies that I, as one representing a district where there has been an amount of planting for the last five or six years, am very pleased to say that everything is going on well. The trees are growing well, and the men are delighted with the employment they are getting.

Mr. J. White

Seeing that Deputy Daly is so satisfied with the operations of the Forestry Department, I make the request to the Minister that he would do something for the Inishowen area in Donegal. So far as I am aware no scheme of afforestation has been put into operation in my part of the country. I would like to impress on the Minister that the Inishowen area is still in Donegal, notwithstanding the views of some of his officials and some of the officials of the Land Commission, who seem to be of the opinion that because the Swilly divides the area from the rest of the country that we are a sort of orphan child or a noman's land. As the Land Commission Vote has been disposed of I know I cannot discuss the Land Commission now, and I will only say that any of the money spent on the improvement of estates schemes has never reached our area, but I have a strong suspicion of where it has been spent. I would like to hear if forestry schemes must be initiated by the county councils.

Mr. Hogan

No.

Mr. White

I do not want to occupy the time of the House further. Seeing that Deputy Daly is so well satisfied about the planting of trees about Kilworth Camp, it would give us some confidence if similar planting were undertaken in Inishowen, and we would present the Minister with the same bouquets.

Mr. Hogan

The policy of the Forestry Branch is to plant 200,000 acres at the rate of about 4,000 acres a year. That policy is being carried out. Last year, however, only 3,000 acres were planted. The policy is to have 200,000 acres of timber State controlled and State-owned within 50 years. So far as timber diminishing is concerned, the Forestry Act is to deal with that. It came into operation on 1st April. I was asked was forestry economic. It is, if you are prepared to wait fifty years, and it is only the State can carry out forestry on a big scale. I claim that with the finances we have at our disposal we could not go much faster.

I quite agree that forestry gives a considerable amount of employment. We spend over £50,000 a year on forestry, which is not an inconsiderable item. On the question of a more ambitious programme and a bigger area of forestry, that is simply a matter of more money, but it must be remembered that land is not available as easily as people think for forestry purposes. There is an idea that any sort of land will do for forestry. That is not so. You require fairly good land for forestry, and you cannot plant where the altitude is too great. People talk of hill-tops and mountains, but on most of those you can only grow scrub timber. The same applies to areas near the sea, such as Connemara. There are very big tracts in those areas where for one reason or another planting is out of the question. There is a big area of land in the country which could be replanted. I do not think there is any need to worry.

Vote put and agreed to.