Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Jun 1930

Vol. 35 No. 8

Issues Out of Central Fund. - School Meals (Gaeltacht) Bill, 1930. — Second Stage.

Minister for Lands and Fisheries (Mr. Lynch)

This is a Bill which proposes to carry out one of the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission, by extending to certain parts of the Gaeltacht the provisions of the earlier Acts of 1914 and 1917 relating to meals for school children. These Acts apply at the moment only in urban areas. The Gaeltacht Commission, in paragraph 63 of its report, said:

In many parts of the Gaeltacht, school children have to travel long distances over bleak country, and the hardships they thereby suffer, particularly in the winter time, are such as render them unfit to profit to the fullest extent by the education given. The Commission recommends that provision be made for a free meal each day in schools where the managers and teachers consider such provision advisable. No distinction whatever should be made in the case of any of the children in this matter.

The parts of the Gaeltacht included in the Schedule to the Bill are those to which these conditions apply. They have been settled after very careful consideration by officers who know the Gaeltacht generally, and they embrace the districts in which the conditions of the people are bad, the distances to be travelled to school by the children are longest, and the journeys most exposed. In order that Deputies might be able to see readily what districts are covered by the Schedule, I have had a map prepared and set up in the hall.

I do not think that, at this stage, I need say much in support of the general case for providing a hot meal for school children in the middle of the school day, especially in districts of the type with which we are dealing. The hours of school attendance are normally from 10 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon. In the districts under consideration, the children have to go long journeys, sometimes taking half-an-hour or an hour to reach school. The work on which they are engaged in school is just as exhausting as that in which adults mostly engage. It will be readily understood that at 12.30 or 1 o'clock — 3½ or 4 hours after they have left home — if a hot meal of some sort is not provided, the child ceases to be able, either physically or mentally, to take advantage of the teaching. That is shortly the case for seeing that the school child has some sort of hot meal during the school day under the best conditions. In the winter, the case is very much stronger. The child may have walked a long distance in drenching rain, and may have had to sit throughout the day in partly dried clothes or in clothes not dried at all.

It would be more agreeable to me to bring in a Bill which extended this benefit to the whole of the Gaeltacht, but there are several strong grounds against such a course. For reasons which I will explain later, it might well defeat the realisation of the purpose which the Bill will, I hope, achieve. In the first place, one must bear in mind that the principle of public assistance in the provision of meals for children has not been conceded in rural areas elsewhere in the country. Besides that, I am glad to be able to say that there are many portions of the Gaeltacht where the conditions of the people and the accessibility of the schools are just as good as they are in portions of the Galltacht.

In the second place, the putting into operation of this measure will depend on the goodwill of the county councils and county boards of health, by whom the actual arrangements for the meals must be made, and by whom half the cost of the food must be borne. I believe that the limitation of the area to those districts in which the need is most obvious will go a great way towards ensuring that goodwill and towards facilitating the councils in taking an early decision to put the measure in force. I cannot help thinking that any extension of the area might have the effect of postponing such a decision, or indeed of rendering the measure a dead letter. While the claim of the Gaeltacht for special treatment in this and other matters is generally admitted, I believe that the interests of the Gaeltacht are best served by moderation in the pressing of that claim, and by the immediate realisation of those purposes which are most pressing. In this way we can hope for a continuance of that general support in the carrying through of the measures for the benefit of the Gaeltacht which still lie before us. The form of the Bill follows broadly the lines of the earlier Acts, which have been found in practice to answer. The two most important differences between it and former Acts is that this is an extension to rural areas. The Act in the past applied only to urban areas. In former Acts there was a provision for payment by parents for meals supplied in schools. Section 2 of the Act of 1914 says:

(1) There shall be charged to the parent of every child in respect of every meal furnished to that child under this Act such an amount as may be determined by the local authority, and, in the event of payment not being made by the parent, it shall be the duty of the authority, unless they are satisfied that the parent is unable by reason of circumstances other than his own default to pay the amount, to require the payment of that amount from that parent, and any such amount may be recovered as a civil debt in the manner provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.

(2) The local authority shall pay over to the school meals committee so much of any money paid to them by, or recovered from, any parent as may be determined by the authority to represent the cost of the food furnished by the committee to the child of that parent, less a reasonable deduction in respect of the expenses of recovering the same.

There is no such provision in the Bill before us. The provision of meals will be carried out by the county councils through the boards of health acting with the assistance of committees, which may consist entirely of members of the board of health, or they may enlist the services of persons outside. Section 7 provides that it shall be no part of the official duty of a teacher to assist in the provision of meals. I anticipate that this measure will be borne largely on the shoulders of the teachers, but they will do this service not as part of their duty to the State but as a voluntary act. I know there is a desire on the part of the teachers to assist generally in the matter, and the assistance given in the way of voluntary work in a matter of this kind is likely to be more valuable than if given as part of their official duties. The measure will not be without value to the teachers, as I am confident it will lead to better educational results, which will make it easier for the teachers to impart knowledge to the pupils, but, as I have said, there will be no compulsion on the teachers to assist in the provision of the meals.

Section 9 provides a limit to the amount of the State contribution, which is not to exceed £10,000. The number of schools in the scheduled area is 337, and the average attendance last year was 19,032. The cost of providing a meal would amount roughly, on an average, to 1¼d. per child. This estimate is supported by previous experience in other parts of the country, when assistance in the provision of meals was given out of relief funds some years ago. It is also supported by experience in urban areas. In the latter the average cost has been lower, as the cost of the commodities in these areas is somewhat lower. The average urban cost in 1927 was 1.1d.; in 1928, 1.18d.; and in 1929, 1.19d. It is not a large sum, but I contemplate that it will enable a cup of hot cocoa with milk and sugar and a substantial slice of bread and butter, or jam, to be supplied to each child. That is the maximum we could provide, but in many cases children will bring home-made bread and butter or other food as a contribution to the meal. Ten thousand pounds will be ear-marked for the boards of health affected, and each board will have some discretion as to the expenditure of the money, subject to the condition that only half the actual cost of food provided will be repaid to it. If any board of health should fail to put the measure into force its share of the £10,000 will come back into the Exchequer. The whole annual expenditure is not very much, but I feel it is money well expended and that it will give a better return in the physical and mental equipment of the children turned out from the schools in the scheduled areas. The measure will, I hope, with the cooperation of the county councils and the boards of health, be brought into actual operation in a number of areas on 1st October.

Mr. Fahy

This Bill will, I am sure, be welcomed by all Deputies. As the Minister says, it carries out, or partly carries out, one of the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission. It applies, of course, to the districts in which the need is most obvious. The Minister says that moderation in the pressing of such claims would be likely to lead to a more general acceptance of the putting into operation of other recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission later on. The elimination of the section compelling parents to contribute in such cases is very good, for not only were the costs difficult to recover but it lead to inquiries which were not desirable very often, and in fact to certain schools refusing to put the powers into operation. I am also quite certain that the teachers will do most of this work. The greater portion of the burden will fall on them, and in that connection it is wise not to make it obligatory on the teachers to do the work. They will, I am satisfied, do it voluntarily. This is really an educational measure, for, as Napoleon said, "an army marches on its stomach." Certainly, children going to school cannot take advantage of the teaching if they are hungry. If we spend £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 on education it would be worth spending a few thousands to enable the children to take advantage of that education. I would be inclined to plead for a larger contribution from the Government. I believe they will contribute fifty per cent. of the expense, and their total contribution will be £10,000. Anybody looking at the map on which the scheduled areas are coloured will know these are the very poorest districts in the country outside the slums of Dublin, and their need is very great and obvious. I think no objection would be taken by any Party in this House if the Government decided to be more generous and to contribute say three-fourths of the cost of supplying these meals.

Mr. T. O'Reilly

This Bill is long overdue. The idea behind it is good. I do not agree, however, with the financial arrangements in the Bill. I think that to ask boards of health to contribute one-half the cost of the administration of this Bill is to ask them to take on a burden which, in many cases, will be more than the over-taxed farmers in the country can well bear. I think that the Government should have contributed two-thirds of the cost. I think that one-third of the cost would have been quite enough to put on boards of health. Unless that is done, I think this Bill will be unpopular. That is to say this Bill will be unpopular if the boards of health are asked to contribute one-half of the cost. I am glad to see that the teachers are free to do as they please, either to help or to remain neutral. With regard to the electoral divisions, I do not agree that sound discretion has been shown in their selection. For instance in Kerry, Caragh is omitted. Caragh is one of the electoral divisions in the congested areas where the valuation per head is less than £1 1s. Kilorglin is another that is omitted. Cromane as the Minister knows is as poor a district as there is in Ireland. Other poor areas excluded from the Bill are Boolteens, Keelgarrylander, Castlecove. I think the provisions of the Bill should be extended to embrace at least these electoral divisions. I hope the Minister will take a note of them.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Ba mhaith liom, ar nós Phroinséis Uí Fhathaigh, Teachta, fáilte do chur roimh an mBille seo ar son na Gaeltachta. Tá mé ag ceapa gur bhuail an tAire an tairnge ar an gceann nuair adubhairt sé an fáth is mó atá faoi seo, an t-achar atá ag na páistí a dhul chun na scoile, cuid acab trí no ceathar de mhíltibh. Bhí muid uilig óg roimhe seo agus tá fhios againn dá gcuirfeadh muid lón beag in ar bpóca nach mbeadh mórán le fáil againn sa phóca nuair a bheadh na trí míle siubhalta againn. Is beag páiste sa nGaeltacht nár bhféidir leis ruaine bheag aráin do thabhairt leis agus nach dtugann leis é, ach tá faitchíos orm nach móran bhíonn fágtha aige dhe nuair a bhíonn sé ag teach na scoile, mar bíonn ar na páistí an baile fhágáil go moch. Mar sin, is maith an rud é, agus is rí-mhaith an rud é, go bhfuil an Rialtas ag cur i ngéill go gcaithfe siad lón te d'fháil i lár an laé.

Rud eile, is iomdha maidin fhliuch go mbíonn ortha dul amach go dtí an scoil sa mbáistigh agus bíonn siad fuar fliuch agus duine againn féin a bheadh mar seo ba mhaith leis é féin do théitheamh le lón te.

Anois, faoi na ceanntracha gur chuir an tAire faoi fháinne, ní féidir le duine ar bith a rá nach iad na ceanntracha is Gaedhealaí agus is boichte sa tír íad. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh na ceanntracha eile fá fheirg nár tógadh isteach freisin íad. Ach má thagann siad leis an mbochtanacht agus leis an nGaeltacht ní fhéadfadh siad mórán a rá. Tá dhá cheanntar in Aontas Uachtair Aird gur mhaith liom go leigfeadh sé isteach sa bhfáinne iad. Is iad san togh-roinn Uachtair Aird agus toghroinn Pholl na Péiste. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil an dá thogh-roinn seo chó bocht amach is amach leis na togh-ranna eile ach in sna togh-ranna seo féin tá corr-bhaile bocht ionta. Ar chaoi ar bith, ní féidir le duine dá ghrinne focal a rá in aghaidh na gceanntracha atá sa bhfáinne.

Níl a thuille le rá agam ach go bhfuil, ní hamháin baochas na Gaeltachta ag dul don Aire ach tá mé cinnte go mbeidh baochas na tíre ón tuaisceart go dtí an deisceart agus ón oirthear go dtí an t-iarthar ag dul do. Mar tá sé ráite, duine ná tír ar bith a thugann congnamh don bhocht go gcuireann Dia an seacht n-oiread ina bhealach.

Mr. Ruttledge

Like other speakers, I welcome this Bill. At the same time I do not think that we can congratulate the Minister on being over-generous in this matter. I have been looking at the map showing the areas included, and the areas described as partly Irish-speaking which are excluded. When I take some examples of the areas which are described as partly Irish-speaking I find that the vast majority of the people in these districts can speak and understand Irish. The people in them who do not speak Irish form a very small minority. Take, for example, North Mayo and some of the districts that have been excluded from the Schedule. Take the district of Lacken. Everyone in that district can speak Irish. They may not speak it at every moment of the day, but except for a few people who may have wandered in there from outside areas all the people there can speak Irish. In the Bally-castle area the same thing applies These are two of the poorest areas, I suppose, in the whole constituency. The great majority of the people in these districts speak Irish, and practically all of them understand Irish, and yet they are described on the map as partly Irish-speaking.

Other areas excluded are Glenhest and Addrigoole. In the latter area we cannot get the Land Commission to give any help, but one would imagine that some little assistance would be forthcoming from the Minister's Department. The people there are extremely poor. There are 700 acres of land there, and the Land Commission simply leave it in the hands of one individual, who will not farm it or do anything with it. The Land Commission will not do anything to assist in alleviating the distress that prevails amongst the people there. One would imagine, since that position is taken up by the Land Commission, that some effort would be made by the Minister's Department to do something to alleviate the distress amongst these people. Then you have areas such as Attymass and Callow and Shraheen, as well as other areas excluded, in which the majority of the people are Irish-speaking, and at the present time are in deplorable circumstances. It is no unusual thing to see children all through the winter going to school without boots on them. While the unfortunate parents have not the wherewithal to provide boots for them during the winter periods, they are prosecuted if they allow their donkeys to go without shoes.

The amount that would be required to enable all these areas to make provision for meals for the children would be very small. The areas that are excluded, and in which we contend the majority of the people are Irish-speaking, are equally as poor and in as bad a condition as the people in the areas that are provided for in this Bill. I would suggest to the Minister that he might consider making provision for all those areas in which he is satisfied that the majority of the people are Irish-speaking, and in which the conditions are very bad. While we welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister we think that he should have gone farther than he has. The amount that would be involved in extending its provisions to areas such as I have suggested would not be considerable, and such an extension would make the Bill more satisfactory than it is.

Mr. Law

I also welcome the Bill. It appears to me to be a necessary corollary so far as it goes to the Act passed by the Oireachtas some time ago making attendance at primary schools compulsory for children throughout the country. I am not very much enamoured of the principle of compulsion. When the State took upon itself to compel parents to send children to school it should also I think have been prepared at the same time to see that the children were in a fit physical state when they arrived at school to profit by the instruction given them. Had the choice been mine, I should have preferred to see provision made for the feeding of necessitous children everywhere, as well as for the medical inspection of school children, than to see the State stepping in and making attendance at primary schools compulsory. However, it seemed well to the Dáil to do otherwise. As the Dáil decided to compel children to attend primary schools, I welcome this step, so far as it goes, in the direction of seeing that the children should be in a proper state to receive instruction when they get to school. Having said that, I want to ask the Minister one or two questions.

I am not very clear as to the meaning of Section 4. That Section says: —"Every board of health to whom this Act applies may, subject to the provisions of this Act, provide meals for children attending national schools in the scheduled area of such board of health." I would like to know what we are to understand that section to mean. Does it mean that it is to be mandatory upon each board of health to provide meals for every child attending every school in the scheduled area? If that is so, it seems to me that you will be imposing an unnecessary charge in many cases, because, undoubtedly, in the scheduled area there will be many districts where the schools are recruited from children coming from homes in which sufficient food is provided. Or does it mean that they are to provide for such children in such schools as are necessitous? I may have overlooked it — the point may be cleared up in some other section of the Bill, but I would be glad to have explanation of it.

I turn now to what has already been the subject of debate, and probably will be the subject of further discussion before we are finished, namely, the Schedule of the Bill. I should be glad to be informed what is the principle on which that Schedule has been based. Is it the proportion of Irish speakers in the district, or is it, as I should think would be more natural, having regard to the subject matter of the Bill, the necessity of the child? I believe that, from whatever point of view we look at it, we shall find that the Schedule is in need of amendment. Undoubtedly we shall have Deputies telling us, as they have already told us, where the Schedule should be amended to suit their own particular parts of the country. I shall confine myself to two or three instances in which it strikes me the Schedule requires amendment in relation to my own county of Donegal. I notice that the Schedule does not correspond in any way with the Schedule of the Gaeltacht Housing Act, that many districts included in that Act are excluded from the Schedule of this Bill. I will mention three. First, there is the whole of the area of Fanad, in which I think Deputy Blaney lives and which undoubtedly contains many Irish speakers and, to my knowledge, a great many poor townlands. Secondly, there is the entire peninsula of Rosguill, which contains some of the poorest townlands in the county and the bottom end of which, the far end sticking out in the Atlantic, contains some very poor townlands indeed. Finally, there is the whole of the electoral division of Dunfanaghy.

If a person were set the task of preparing a Schedule to a Bill of this kind, and if his knowledge of that county were confined to a knowledge of maps, valuations, and, perhaps, to a tour in a motor car along the main roads, I can well imagine his coming to the conclusion that in such a district as Dunfanaghy there would be no need of any provision for school children. It is a district which for a considerable part, especially along the high roads, consists of what are, for Donegal, relatively good lands, good houses, and fairly prosperous people, but he would not have to deviate very far from the high road in the direction of the hills when he would find, along boreens running up to the mountains, townlands containing wretched houses, miserable holdings, and children who bear every evidence of being half-starved. Considering, on the one hand, that in the areas which are here excluded you have undoubtedly considerable districts in which most, if not all, of the children attending school will be found to be underfed, and having regard to the fact that, on the other hand, you will undoubtedly find in the scheduled areas schools in which nearly all the children come from comparatively comfortable homes, though geographically their homes lie in poor areas, it would be better to enlarge the areas. If I read the Bill aright it is permissive and it is open to the board of health, on evidence taken, either to give or refuse provision in any particular case on the advice of the manager or local people. Where, then, can be the harm in extending the area, at any rate to the extent that would be implied in making the Schedule similar to that in the Gaeltacht Housing Act?

Undoubtedly, I look on this Bill as a first step. I am quite sure that we cannot stop here and that we must include help for the whole of the Gaeltacht. We will not stop even there, as I am quite sure that, having once adopted the principle, we will have to go on and meet the case of necessitous school children wherever you find them, whether in the Gaeltacht or outside. I am, of course, always prepared to take what I can get. I realise that it is necessary to limit our financial responsibility, but I would ask the Minister, and the Government generally, to consider whether they could not go a little further, even in this first step, than they appear to be inclined to go. I would ask them to consider enlarging the Schedule, always on the understanding that it remains within the discretion of the board of health to decide as to how far they will put the Act into operation in each particular area.

Seán T. O Ceallaigh

Ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuilim ar aon intinn le Teachta Rúitleis nuair adeir sé nách bhfuil sé sásta leis an méid atá an tAire á dhéanamh fán mBille seo. Tá sé maith go leor chó fada agus a théigheann sé ach ní théigheann sé fada go leor. Mar adubhairt Teachtaí eile, tá áiteacha go mba chóir a bheith ar an liosta so agus nách bhfuil ann — áiteanna isea iad atá sa Ghaeltacht agus in a bhfuil anachuid daoine bochta.

Tá gá leis an mBille seo agus mara mbeadh go bhfuil ní bheadh an Bille ós ar gcóir anois. Ach isé mo thuairim agus do réir deabhraimh sé tuairim an Teachta o Thír Chonaill atá tar éis labhairt — go bhfuil baol ann go ndéanfaidh cuid de sna Búird Sláinte Puiblí faillí san obair seo. Tá na búird seo i n-aghaidh breis airgid a chur ar lucht díolta na rátaí agus tá faitchíos orm nach gcuirfidh siad an Bille seo i bhféidhm. Ba mhaith liom rud éigin d'fheicsint san mBille ag tabhairt comhachta don Aire iachall do chur ar na Búird an tAcht do chur i bhféidhm. Muna bhfuil comhacht éigin mar sin ag an Aire, creidim nách gcuirfear an tAcht i bhféidhm in áiteanna áirithe mar gheall ar an mbreis airgid a cuirfear ar na rátaí. Tá cuid de sna háiteanna seo ana-bhocht — áiteanna mar Leitir Mór agus Inis Bó Finne — agus ní bheidh muinntir na n-áiteanna san in ánn a chur d'fhiachaibh ar na Búird an tAcht do chur i bhféidhm.

Bheadh an cuid eile de'n chontae i naghaidh an t-Acht do chur i bhféidhim agus bheadh troid eatorra. I ndeire na dála, tá faitchíos orm nách bhfuighfeadh na páisti bochta sna háiteanna so an béile. Is dó liom go mba cheart don Aire ált a chur san mBille chun iachall do chur ar na Búird an tAcht do chur i bhféidhim.

Ceapaim go mba mhaith an rud an liosta atá sa mBille do leathnú agus áiteanna eile i dTír Chonaill agus i Muigheo agus i nGaillimh do thabhairt isteach. Dubhradh liom go raibh cúpla áit san liosta cheana nách ceart a bheith ann — nách bhfuil gá leis an mBille sna háiteanna so. Nílim chun íad d'ainmnú. Níor mhaith liom béile do bhaint ó pháiste go dteastóch a leithéid uaidh. Ach dubhairt duine as Contae na Gaillimhe liom nách bhfuil mórán gá leis an mBille in áiteanna atá ar an liosta agus go bhfuil gá leis in áiteanna eile nách bhfuil ar an liosta. Iarfainn ar an Aire an liosta d'athscrúdú.

Is dó liom go geaithfidh an tAire a thuille airgid d'fháil fán mBille. Táimíd i gcomhnaí ag glaodhach ar an Rialtas a thuille airgid do thabhairt ar son a lán rudaí. Ach, do réir mo thuairime, má tá airgead le tabhairt ar aon ní, níl rud ar bith níos tabhachtaí chun airgead do chaitheamh air na sláinte na bpáistí sna háiteanna bochta i n-iarthar na hEireann. Cuig bliana deag o shoin do chuir Ruaidhrí Mac Easmuinn scéim mar so ar bun san iarthar. Dubhairt sé liom níos mó na uair amhain gur ar son sláinte na bpáistí a rinne sé sin — gur thug sé féin fé ndeara nuair a bhí sé sna ceanntracha so go raibh sláinte na bpáistí go dona agus go raibh cuid acu ag fáil bháis toisc gan a ndóthain bídh do bheith acu.

Is éigin níos mó do dhéanamh ar son na gceanntracha so na mar adeintear ar son na scoileanna i mBaile Atha Cliath agus áiteanna mar sin. Tugtar leath an chostais do sna bailtí. Is dó liom go mba chóir níos mó 'ná sin — an méid iomlán b'fhéidir — do thabhairt don Ghaeltacht, go háirithe na h-áiteanna bochta in iarthar na hEireann. Tá faitchíos orm nách mbeidh na Búird Phuiblí in ánn an tairgead do sholáthairt agus mar gheall ar sin nách gcuirfear an tAcht i bhféidhm. Dá dtiocfadh leis an Aire a thuille airgid d'fháil on Aire Airgid ní amháin ar son na gceanntracha atá ar an liosta ach ar son na Gaeltachta, mar tá sé socruithe i dTuarasgabháil an Choimisúin; dá dtiocfadh leis an méid airgid d'fháil ón Aire Airgid agus a dhiolfadh dha dtrian de'n chostas, is dó liom go gcuirfaí an tAcht i bhféidhm i ngach Contae. Muna ndéanfar san, tá faitchíos orm nách gcuirfear é i bhféidhm. Beidh tuairim is £1 le díol ar son gach páiste atá sna scoileanna so. Iocfar an méid sin idir an Rialtas agus na Búird Sláinte Puiblí. Dá dtabharfadh an tAire 15/- de'n mhéid sin, is dó liom go mbeadh na Búird sásta an tAcht do chur i bhféidhm. Ach má tá sé ortha 10/- an duine d'íoc, ní bheidh mórán brí san Acht sna háiteanna in a bhfuil gá leis. I gContae na Gaillimhe, i dTír Chonaill agus i gContae Mhuigheo, tá geurghá leis agus i gContae Chiarruighe, b'fhéidir, fosta, ach má cuirtear mórán airgid ar na rátaí tá faitchíos orm nách dtiocfaidh mórán maitheasa as an mBille.

Seán O Tuibride

Mar adubhairt mé roimhe seo, nuair a bhí Bille ag baint leis an nGaeltacht ós cóir na Dála, "tá sé in am agus thar am a leithéid de Bhille do thabhairt isteach." Dubhairt an tAire an uair sin go mba dheacair mé a shásamh. Bhal, tá an Bille seo tagaithe isteach anois agus deirim go bhfuil sé in am agus thar am é do thabhairt isteach. Nílim sásta leis an mBille. Mar adubhairt an tAire, is deacair mé a shásamh. Roinnt bhlian ó shoin, do chuir Ruaidhrí Mac Easmuinn scéim mar seo ar bun. Do bhailigh sé a lán airgid agus do rinneamar an obair. Níl fhios agam cadé mar caitheadh an chuid eile de'n chiste sin ach tugadh béilí do sna páistí leis an airgead san chó fada agus a bhí an scéim i bhféidhm.

Tá's agam go raibh gá leis an obair sin. Chonnaic mé páistí ag dul chum scoile gan briocfasta agus ag teacht a bhaile arís gan aon bhéile bheith aca. Nuair a thosnuigh Ruaidhrí Mac Easmuinn ar an scéim so, bá léir a fheiceáil an biseach a bhí ar na páistí agus chó-maith agus a bhí siad ag dul i bhfeabhas. Ar dhóigh ar bith, caitheadh an t-airgead sin agus bhí na daoine ag súil le scéim on Rialtas chun leanúint ar an obair. Tá siad ag fanúint anois le hocht mbliana agus is anois atá an Bille seo á thabhairt isteach. Ar nós an Bhille eile, is dócha go bhfuil an tAire ag súil le baochas on Tigh de bharr an Bhille seo. Ach isé an rud adeirim go bhfuil sé in am agus thar am rud éigin mar seo do dhéanamh. Nílim chun baochas do thabhairt don Aire ar son an Bhille seo ná ar son aon Bhille eile cosúil leis. Tá sé thar am é seo do dhéanamh agus tá sé á dhéanamh anois toisc gur chuir dream daoine d'fhiachaibh ar an Aire é dhéanamh. Nílim ag tagairt do dhaoine ar an dtaobh eile den Tigh. Ach go dtí gur chuir Cumann Cosanta na Gaedhilge iachall ar an Aire rud éigin do dhéanamh ar son na Gaeltachta, ní rinne sé dada. Níl aon bhaochas tuillte ag an Aire.

Cad tá le fáil as an mBille? Cadé an tairbhe atá ag teacht chun na ndaoine as an mBille? Nuair a thug an Rialtas Bille na dTighthe isteach agus nuair a chuireann siad Bille mar seo ós ár gcóir, admhuíonn siad nach bhfuil na daoine seo in ánn an costas do dhíol. Ach tá ar mhuinntir na gContae seo leath an chostais faoi'n mBille seo d'íoc. Ní mór an búntáiste é sin. Nuair a bhí an tAire ag smaoineadh ar Bhille suarach mar é seo, ba chóir dó a fheiceál go mbeadh níos mó le fáil ag na daoine. It is past time this Bill was brought in——

An Ceann Comhairle

Tá sé sin ráidhte ag an Teachta cheana.

Seán O Tuibride

Ní abrochaidh mé mórán den rud adubhairt mé ach abrochaidh mé cúpla focal. It is past time this Bill was brought in——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sin é an triomhadh uair.

Seán O Tuibride

B'fhéidir go bhfuil daoine annso nár thuig mé ar dtuis. As I was saying, it is full time this Bill was brought in. When Roger Casement started a fund to feed the starving children of the Gaeltacht he did a work that we thought would be continued in the Gaeltacht when an Irish Government came into power. An Irish Government has been in power now since 1922 until this day, and no action was taken by them for the betterment of the people of the Gaeltacht until they brought in this Bill and the Gaeltacht Housing Bill. I had an experience of the Gaeltacht before Roger Casement came there. I remember the time when we distributed a fund for feeding the children attending the schools there. I saw the children coming to school in the Gaeltacht, and I know that they go there even to-day without their breakfasts, and I think it is past time that the Government should have brought in a measure of this kind to give a free lunch to the children in the Gaeltacht. This thing should have been done years ago. For that reason I do not like to hear the Minister saying that it is very hard to please Deputy Tubridy. It would be hard to please me——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating his speech now.

Mr. Lemass

For the benefit of the unenlightened.

Dr. Tubridy

I will change off the Irish version now. The Roger Casement Fund for the feeding of school children in the Gaeltacht was finished some years ago, about 1921 or 1922. We expected that the home Government would at that time have given some concessions and continued this work that was carried on at that time by the Roger Casement Fund and by a number of charitable people — charitable Quakers and other people in England — to feed the children in the Gaeltacht, the Gaeltacht where they had their reserve of the Irish language, the place where the language was to be preserved and from which it was to spread to the rest of Ireland. The children in that area were fed by the Roger Casement Fund. This fund was subscribed by his people and by subscriptions got by Roger Casement at that time. This fund was originated by Roger Casement. We do not know yet what happened that fund. For some time it was utilised for the purpose of feeding school children in the Gaeltacht. For years that work has been neglected by the present Government. We have been pressing them on the matter. The Cumann Cosanta na Gaeltachta has been pressing on the present Ministry for years past to continue this work. Up to this day eight years have elapsed before this Bill has been brought in. At last they have brought in this Bill which allows the local county council to strike a rate of a certain minimum amount which, I take it, will be supplemented by a grant of a certain amount by the Government. Now the Gaeltacht has been so long neglected——

An Ceann Comhairle

Tá gach focal den mhéid sin ráite ag an Teachta cheana. Is léir go bhfuilimíd chun an oráid chéanna a chloisint uaidh arís. The Deputy said every single word of that in Irish and he must not repeat himself.

Dr. Tubridy

I wish to mention that if the people of the Gaeltacht were so poor that there had to be a special Housing Bill and a special Bill to feed the children going to school, if they were so poor that both these Bills had to be brought in here, one would have thought that when it came to a question of giving free lunches to the very poorest of the children in the Gaeltacht that the ratepayers in the different portions of the Gaeltacht should not be asked to contribute.

An Ceann Comhairle

I gathered exactly that very same point from the Deputy in Irish. Perhaps my understanding is at fault——

Dr. Tubridy

I am afraid the Ceann Comhairle's Irish must be Southern Irish.

An Ceann Comhairle

It might be very good for Deputy Tubridy if the Ceann Comhairle's Irish were not what it is, but I understood the Deputy to say in Irish exactly what he has been saying now.

Dr. Tubridy

Perhaps I have over-stressed the point. The people of the Gaeltacht are not at all thankful to the Government for this Bill, which is entirely inadequate. Some measure dealing with this matter should have been brought in long ago. We are judging it on the lines of the Gaeltacht Bill, the Bill under which they promised in one parish 400 houses and where we find now we can only get over 20. We are very suspicious.

Mr. Lynch

Who promised the 400 houses in one parish?

Dr. Tubridy

All your principal supporters. The people down there were told what was going to happen and how the money was going to be distributed; they would get forms to fill in their names and they would get a new house each because they supported the Government in the election. That applied to four or five hundred people in a parish. Now it turns out that only twenty-four or twenty-five people got houses. We are naturally suspicious and we rather expect that the same thing may happen in regard to this School Meals Bill. I do not want to go into that much further, because the Ceann Comhairle may not like it.

There are a few points I would like to mention in connection with the administration of this Bill. I do not think the meals can be prepared without the help of the teacher. I have had some experience of the administration of school meals already and I do not see how these things can be done without the help of the teacher. There is no doubt that the preparation of the meals would interfere with the teaching in the schools for perhaps an hour or two each day. I suggest that it might be possible to erect some sort of a little out-kitchen attached to each school. If the meals must be prepared in the school it will mean that the work of the school will be upset for about two hours. The erection of a little building such as I suggest would cost very little. It would be erected in the very poor portion of the Gaeltacht and it would be a great advantage to have such a building attached to each school.

I think that the services of some of the domestic instructresses in the Gaeltacht should be utilised for the preparation of these meals. I know that one or two instructresses have been appointed for some years, and there are five or six others to be appointed for the Gaeltacht. Their services could be utilised in the preparation of these meals, and the meals could be associated with cookery classes in the schools. It is only a suggestion to the Minister, but it might result in some advantage in the preparation of meals for the poorer children in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. E. Doyle

I welcome this Bill even though I do not approve of the idea of a boundary between one part of Ireland and the other. There are poor children in other parts of Ireland too, although they may not be able to speak the native language, and I think they should get the same consideration as, for instance, the children in the Gaeltacht. There is one aspect of the matter which has not been touched upon. Take the case of a poor man with four or five children. He has a miserable pittance of about 25/- a week. He has to buy school books for his children who are going to school. I know of such cases, and it is really impossible for the man to purchase the school books. There is no use in sending children to school if you cannot supply them with the material by which they can learn. School meals are certainly essential for the poor children. It is impossible for a teacher to impart education to children who are not at least well fed. Little children going a distance of two or three miles to school, as has been explained by Deputies from the Gaeltacht, probably on a wet day, should receive some nourishing food. I fail to see how such children could progress in their education if they are not well nourished. They certainly ought not to be asked to cover such distances and attend school under such conditions as now exist. I am sure it is not a good thing for the teacher either. I have no doubt at all about the teachers' co-operation in this matter. I think it is much better that this should not be made compulsory, as it would work better voluntarily. As a representative of Labour I welcome the Bill, even though I think that it should be extended to the rest of the country.

Mr. Lynch

No matter what schedule was drawn up to a Bill of this kind arguments would be put forward for the inclusion of other areas. As Deputy Doyle has pointed out, if the whole Gaeltacht were included he would want districts in Carlow and Kilkenny included, with perhaps as good a case as for putting in some part of the Gaeltacht. As I said, there are many portions of the Gaeltacht where the people are, at least, as comfortable as those in the Galltacht. It would be absurd to treat persons in the Gaeltacht more favourably than persons similarly situated in the English-speaking area. I was asked if the scheme on which the Schedule was drafted was on the basis of the proportion of Irish speakers or on the basis of poverty. The fact that it was the Gaeltacht was first taken into consideration. In that sense Irish-speaking was involved, but after that the question of the poorest areas in the Gaeltacht was the deciding factor. I think when he looked at the map Deputy Fahy was satisfied it showed that meals were to be provided in the poorest areas. The Schedule was not drafted in an arbitrary manner in my Department; it was drafted by a Committee on which were represented the Department of Education, the Department of Local Government, the Department of Agriculture and my Department. Nobody could suggest that the officials of these Departments do not know what they are talking about, as far as the Gaeltacht is concerned. The inspectors of national schools do not merely motor along the highways where they see nothing but the bright side of things. They are going into the poorest districts, and into the types of school in which they can judge things for themselves, in the same way as inspectors from the Department of Agriculture go into the poorest areas, and similarly the inspectors from the Department of Local Government. It was a Committee consisting of representatives of these Departments that eventually agreed on this Schedule as being the fairest all round.

I have no doubt that there are pockets to the east of the red line on the map where you would find greater poverty than there is in some parts of the west. No matter where you drew the line you would find the same thing. Taking it generally, I think the line has been drawn as fairly as possible, having regard to conditions in the areas, and to the fact that we do not want to put too great a burden on the local authorities. The Bill, of course, is not mandatory; we deliberately avoided making it mandatory. I have no reason at all to fear that the boards of health and the county councils will not co-operate in the matter. I think there will be no difficulty about that. I prefer to give them the opportunity to do the thing voluntarily at the start rather than to make it obligatory. If we find that there is dereliction on the part of the county councils it will then be time enough to come along and introduce a mandatory measure. But, as a beginning, I would much prefer to show some confidence in the county councils' willingness to tax themselves to some extent for a service of this kind.

As to the proportion that the Government is putting up, where you start from the position that nothing at all is being put up at present, where the present position is that it is only in urban areas there is any provision for school meals, I think we are going sufficiently far. Where half the amount is being contributed by the State, I think it is quite reasonable to expect that the local authorities should put up the other half. I have pointed out that I thought it was better we should confine the areas as much as possible, as there is more likelihood that the county councils would co-operate when the amount involved is small. The maximum amount all the local authorities involved can spend will be £10,000 — the same as the State contribution. We estimate that the whole scheme will cost about £20,000, and the maximum to be contributed by the local authorities will be £10,000. By keeping to a figure of that kind you are much more likely to get the co-operation of the local authorities than by extending it much more widely and by involving them in an expenditure of perhaps £20,000, £30,000 or £40,000. A question would arise if you were extending a measure of this kind over the Gaeltacht as a whole and the rest of the country. Deputy Doyle suggested that it should extend over the whole country, and there is a great deal to be said for that. When that kind of Bill comes along it will not be my duty to take charge of it. Then the question of the proportion of the State contribution to the contribution of the local authorities would have to be considered, because the amount involved might be a burden that the local rates could not bear. Deputy O'Reilly was a little mixed when speaking about the cost of administration. That is not considered in the Bill at all. The £10,000 is intended for the cost of the food.

Mr. Law

I suppose it is clear that a board of health can decide for which schools in the scheduled area they should make provision.

Mr. Lynch

Of course, they have that discretion. If there are schools where the manager, the teachers and the people generally say there is no need for the provision of school meals the board of health will not provide them. In any area where there is a general demand they will.

Mr. Law

I want to be quite clear on this matter. I heard a few expressions — possibly I misunderstood them — that if the board of health decide to put the Bill into operation they would have to put it into operation for the whole of the scheduled area within their jurisdiction.

Mr. Lynch

In the whole of the scheduled area, but not necessarily for schools where the parents, the teachers and the priests say there is no necessity. In that case the board would not be compelled to do so.

Mr. Doyle

Might I take it from the Minister that if there were only two pupils in a certain school area who were badly in need of food there would be no possibility of applying the Bill there?

Mr. Lynch

If they were badly in need of food surely the teachers and the priests would not take the step of telling the board of health that there was no necessity for school meals in the area, even if only two needed them?

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for June 18.