Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jun 1930

Vol. 35 No. 10

In Committee on Finance. - School Meals (Gaeltacht) Bill, 1930—Committee Stage.

Sections 1 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.

Mr. Law

On the Schedule, I beg to move:

To insert in the appropriate places under the words "In the County of Donegal" the words "Creenasmear, Creeslough, Rosguil, Termon."

I do not desire to repeat what I said on the Second Reading. I have put down as amendments to the Schedule the names of four areas at present excluded. They are, to my own knowledge, areas in which a very large number of poor people reside. The Creenasmear and Creeslough areas probably comprise the greater number of necessitous children. The Termon district lies in a comparatively well-to-do area, but it is a little, mountainy district where the farms are very small, where the crops ripen very late, and where one has great evidence of poverty. The same remark applies to the district of Rosguil. It is a wild district, jutting out into the Atlantic, and it is possibly familiar—familiar in the distance—to the visitors to the Rosapenna Hotel. It is a district populated mostly by very small farmers and fishermen. It is as wild a district as probably would be found in any part of the Gaeltacht. Deputies who have looked at the map will have observed that this particular area is coloured green, unlike most of the district to which it geographically belongs. That indicates that the district is almost entirely Irish-speaking. I have listened and weighed the arguments which the Minister adduced against any extension of the area as settled in the Bill. I quite realise that his views are shared by a great many people who have more practical knowledge as members of county councils of the probable working of the Act than I have. Therefore, I do not want to press my views unduly.

I regard this, as I have said before, merely as the first stage in the extension of the principle of looking after necessitous school children in rural areas. The first step was taken a great many years ago. I am glad to say that I had something to do with it in another place. I was in charge of a Private Member's Bill which was ultimately carried. The purpose of that Bill was to make it possible to feed necessitous school children in our towns. We have now gone a step further. We will have to go even further still. It is for the Minister to consider whether, in the circumstances, the small additions I suggest in my own county are additions which might not meet with his favourable consideration.

Mr. Ruttledge

I understood the Minister's attitude the last day was that he was not prepared to add to the Schedule or to include any further areas than are already in the Schedule. Otherwise I would have put in amendments to include areas to which I referred when the Bill was last under consideration. If the Minister is prepared to consider the inclusion of any further areas in the Schedule, I would ask him to bear in mind the particular areas that I brought to his notice, with the conditions obtaining in which I am sure his Department is quite conversant.

Seán O Gúilín

Tá fios agam go bhfuil áiteanna sna Deisibh chó bocht le áiteanna atá san mBille agus tá an ghá ceana ionnta le béile do thabhairt dos na sgoláirí. Iarfainn ar an Aire an liosta san mBille do leathnú agus na h-áiteanna so do chur isteach.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Tá dhá cheanntar i gContae na Gaillimhe go mba mhaith linn a fheiceál san mBille ach is fearr leath-bhulóg 'ná a bheith gan arán. Mar sin, táim sásta leis an mBille agus molaim an tAire ar a shon.

Fionán O Loingsigh

Ba cheart go mbeadh athas ar an Teachta O Guilidhe ná fuil Portláirge cho bocht leis na h-áiteanna sa sceideál. I am not prepared to accept the amendment. I pointed out on the Second Reading that no matter what line would be drawn in a Bill of this kind there would be cases—and good cases— put up for extending it outside this line. I do not say that this line is a perfect line, but at least it was drawn up after very considerable care, and after consultation amongst officials who have very great experience of the Gaeltacht—inspectors of the Department of Education, inspectors of the Department of Local Government and inspectors of my own Department. It was after consultation between these different officials that this line was eventually drawn. I am satisfied that we took into consideration every relevant matter when we were drawing that line. The really important point is that it must be the Gaeltacht first. Then, the guiding principles are the getting in of the poorest areas in the Gaeltacht and the areas in which the children have to travel farthest to school. I am satisfied that the places mentioned in the amendment do not compare with those included in the Schedule in those two respects; that is, poverty and the distance which the children have to travel to school. Deputy Law, and in fact the Tirconaill Deputies generally, should be very pleased with this Bill. I feel that in my own constituency I will get into very serious trouble because of the number of very poor areas excluded. I should like, of course, to extend it much further, but I believe that if I made any attempt to do so there would be very considerable trouble in getting the county councils and the county boards of health to agree to the expenditure that would be involved. Practically three-quarters of Donegal is in the Schedule; there are a few small portions of Kerry; there are only two electoral areas in Cork, and no portion at all of Waterford.

Mr. Goulding

But surely the Minister will admit that there are at least two or three centres in Co. Waterford to which the Bill should apply, centres like Mountstewart, Ballysaggart, and one or two others?

Mr. Lynch

That may be; I have no personal knowledge of it. I know many areas in Kerry that I would like to include, and Deputy Law has made a good case for the inclusion of further areas in Donegal, but the line must be drawn somewhere.

Mr. O'Kelly

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to two places that were mentioned by Deputy Ruttledge of which I have some knowledge. One of them is Lacken, where the boating disaster took place last year, and I think that the Minister will admit, if it is merely a question of poverty, that this is almost as poor an area as any in the Schedule. The same applies to Shraheen. The other places mentioned by Deputy Ruttledge I do not know anything about, but I think those two places I have mentioned are as poor as can be found anywhere, and why they have been left out passes my comprehension. Of course, I realise that the £10,000 that the Government is providing will not do very much when spread over a wide area, and I can quite appreciate the desire of the officials of the Department to restrict the Schedule as much as possible with a view to giving something of that £10,000 to the areas in it. But in areas like Lacken and Shraheen the people are in a heartbreaking state of poverty, and why those two, at any rate, should be left out I cannot understand.

Mr. Derrig

Will the Minister have power to alter the Schedule?

Mr. Lynch

No.

Mr. Derrig

If the medical officer of health for a particular area—for example, Lacken, to which Deputy O'Kelly has referred—is able to make a substantial case for consideration by the Minister's Department, I think that there should be some method by which additions could be made to the Schedule. We have had this difficulty before on the Gaeltacht Housing Act, and the very fact, as the Minister has admitted, that there are areas on the border-line that may have to be included later would mean, in my opinion, that there should be some machinery by which the Minister from time to time could make changes. We have no proof that the inspectorate of the Land Commission, the Local Government Department, or the Department of Education will have the same knowledge of the general conditions in an area as the medical officers of health, and I think that some arrangement should be made before the Schedule is definitely passed in this form whereby their opinions could be got on the matter.

Mr. T. O'Connell

I would support the point made by Deputy Derrig. I think the Minister did take power in the Gaeltacht Housing Act either to add or to take from the Schedule should the necessity arise. He is taking no such power in this Bill, and, even though facts may be brought to his knowledge which will show that certain areas are more deserving of consideration than some of those in the Schedule, he will be quite powerless to do anything unless he first comes to the House for an amending Bill. I suggest that he should include a section like that in the Gaeltacht Housing Act which would give him power, if he were satisfied that a case existed, to include a particular area in the Schedule. I do not think there is any reason why he should not take that power.

Mr. Lynch

The power given in the Gaeltacht Housing Act to extend the Schedule was on a mathematical basis, if one might say so. It was on the question of putting into the Schedule an area which was found on the 1926 census not to have been Gaeltacht if evidence was brought forward to show that the place had become Gaeltacht. This is rather a different case. There is a point as to whether one should have power to do what is suggested in cases where representations were made. I will look into it to see whether it is desirable, and I might suggest to somebody in the Seanad to bring in an amendment.

Mr. Law

If the Minister would take that power, and if it is reasonably worked by him, I think it will meet the object in view. I hope he will look into it before the Bill goes to the Seanad, and consider what can be done to give him discretion in the matter, if and when he finds that the need has arisen. I hope he will take care to see that such an amendment as Deputy Derrig and Deputy O'Connell suggest is inserted. I ask leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Goulding

I take it that is on the understanding that the Minister will reserve power to himself to include other areas?

Mr. Lynch

That I will consider whether or not I shall suggest to somebody in the Seanad to bring forward such an amendment.

Schedule and Title put and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Bill reported without amendment.

FINAL STAGES.

Bill passed through Report Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Little

I think that the summer vacation has now been shortened in the schools, and I would like to know if the children will get the benefit of this Bill during the hungry month—the month of July, when there are no potatoes. A mistake like that occurred before, and the children were left hungry for that month. It is the worst month of the year from their point of view, and I would like to know if the Minister can meet that difficulty or not.

Mr. T. O'Connell

I think I can inform Deputy Little that the chance of schools in these areas being on vacation in July is very small. I do not think that any of the schools will have their vacation in the month of July at all.

Mr. Lynch

I was going to make that point myself. Normally in the Gaeltacht the schools do not close until August, so that they would get these meals in July.

Question put and agreed to.