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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 1930

Vol. 36 No. 1

ORDERS OF THE DAY. - The Adjournment—The Economic Situation.

I move the adjournment until to-morrow. The statement I have to make is not a spectacular one. It does not foreshadow any alteration in Government policy. Its object is to give a general survey of the economic condition of the country and to indicate the steps which we have taken and propose to take to deal with such difficulties as have arisen. The existence of these difficulties it is idle to deny, but to magnify them is as dishonest as it is unwise in the interests of the nation.

In these days, no cry is so loud or so popular as the cry for State assistance. If one were to judge by the note struck in certain utterances which are from time to time reported, it would be difficult to avoid the conclusion that this country has been hit by an unparalleled wave of depression; and our citizens are the victims of unfortunate circumstances which are peculiar to the Saorstát; and that the Government can and should take drastic steps which would provide a sure and expeditious cure for all our economic ills. But any such impression will not survive a sober examination of the facts.

One of the major indices of our economic position is to be found in the development of our foreign trade. Although there has been a widespread and almost catastrophic fall in the general price level, our exports have increased substantially during the past four years. The adverse balance of our visible trade has fallen from £19.3 millions in 1926 to £10.2 millions for the year ended on the 30th September last—a drop of no less than 47 per cent.

In any endeavour to get a fair appreciation of our present position, it is a matter of no small interest to examine the recent trend in the external trade of foreign countries. An analysis of the available trade returns for forty-three countries for the first eight months of the current year shows that in only nine countries besides the Saorstát has the value of exports increased as compared with the corresponding period in 1929. These countries are: Algeria, Spain, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Palestine, Rumania, Russia and Yugo-Slavia. In the case of six of these countries, the latest returns available cover a shorter period than eight months, while in certain cases there are special circumstances which indicate that a close comparison cannot be made between their trade returns and ours.

In considering our domestic position, it is worth pointing out that the aggregate actual income of Saorstát tax-payers assessed for income tax purposes has increased by £4¾ million during the period 1923-24 to 1928-29— the latest year for which figures are available. When every necessary reservation is made in the interpretation of these figures and when allowance is made for the increase during the same period in the purchasing power of money, it cannot be denied that these are satisfactory figures.

Another important index is to be found in the statistics relating to unemployment. The average number of persons registered as unemployed during the current year up to the end of October is 50 per cent. lower than the average number registered during 1922. The average number of claims to unemployment benefit current is 58 per cent. lower than the corresponding number in 1922. The number of persons insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts increased steadily from 242,494 in the insurance year 1922-23 to 284,382 in 1928-29.

Since 1923 we have floated three National Loans, the aggregate amount raised being £23 millions, of which approximately £3 millions was raised by an external loan. Net sales of savings certificates issued since 1923 amounted to £5½ millions, and deposits in the Post Office savings bank have risen approximately to £3.2 millions. Net sales of savings certificates during the period from 1st April last to the beginning of the current month, in fact, already exceed by more than 100 per cent. the sales during the corresponding period last year and are higher than the sales for any complete year with the exception of the year 1923-24 and the year 1928-29.

These facts at least suggest that during this period Saorstát citizens, after providing for current consumption, have had an appreciable margin available for savings. Our revenue position is good. Our social services in relation to our means compare favourably with services which other countries provide. Our National Debt is comparatively low and has been devoted, in the main, to remunerative objects. Our credit to-day stands as high as the credit of the strongest countries in the world. Within the past week, the quotation for external loan in New York was 3 points higher than the quotation for 5 per cent. War Loan on the same market; the latest quotation is 2¾ points higher than the quotation for War Loan. The Second National Loan, which was issued at 97, yesterday reached 105 on the Dublin Stock Exchange.

This summary, which is not and does not purport to be exhaustive, will suffice to show that so far as our general position is concerned there is no justification whatever for alarmist statements and no call for heroic measures.

Agriculture is, no doubt, passing through a period of acute depression as a result of falling prices, and this has been accentuated by the bad weather which has interfered with this year's harvest. Distress, due to bad prices, is mainly felt in the butter industry, and the low level of butter prices is, I fear, likely to continue for some time. The most serious aspect of this fall is due to the fact that dairying is, to a large extent, the foundation of our beef and bacon production.

We export, and must continue to export, nearly half our total production of butter. Our exports amounted in value in 1929 to 4½ million pounds, while our imports amounted to £360,000. If we are to maintain production, we must continue to find a foreign market for at least 4 million pounds' worth of butter, and, important as this figure is for us, its relation to total world production is so small that no action of ours can either stabilise or increase prices on this market.

There is an application at present before the Tariff Commission for a tariff on butter. I do not propose to discuss the merits of this application. It is a highly debatable question which can only be dealt with in the light of the complete information which the Tariff Commission will be able to obtain. Other methods of relieving, to some extent, the immediate difficulty in the butter trade are being examined.

So far as distress has been caused by the weather conditions of this season, this distress is obviously greater in poorer districts. It is in these districts that immediate relief both for farmers and farm labourers is most urgently required. It is proposed to vote a sum of £300,000 for the provision of employment, and a considerable portion of this sum will be utilised in providing employment in rural areas. In this matter we must, of course, cut our cloth according to our measure. On the one hand, we must take into account the need for relief and, on the other, the capacity of the taxpayer to foot the bill. The Relief Vote will come up for debate as a separate issue, and I do not propose to deal further with it at the moment other than to say that it is, of course, a temporary expedient to meet a temporary situation.

The problem of agricultural depression still remains, and it is important that we should all realise what that problem really amounts to. Speculation as to what our position would be if we were completely self-contained is vain. We are at present a country with an enormous export surplus which must be sold on a foreign market, and as such we cannot escape the reaction of world conditions. Already we have experienced their effect. Prices of live stock and live stock products have fallen steadily since the year 1921, and when our farmers ask themselves what does the future hold, what they really desire to know is, are these prices going to fall further? Nobody can answer that question with certainty. We can only speculate, but in our speculation we must take cognisance of the ominous fact that, with the exception of butter, the fall in prices of live stock and other products is far less than the fall in the prices of cereals. Our economy consists, in the main, in the production of live stock and live stock products; the economy of countries like Canada and Australia consists in the main in the production of cereals for sale. I am not at present concerned with politics or politicians but with farmers, and every farmer in the country knows that the price of cattle, sheep, beef, mutton, bacon and eggs, has fallen far less than the price of feeding-barley, oats, maize and particularly wheat. We are all discontented with the price of our live stock products, but what is the position of the farmer who is growing wheat or oats for sale as such? There is at least one claim which we are entitled to make in this year, 1930, and that is that the policy which we have consistently urged on our farmers, viz., to produce live stock and live stock products, and to use grain as their raw materials, has saved this country from the deplorable conditions existing in agricultural countries which, either from necessity or choice, have concentrated on the production of cereals, and especially wheat.

The consideration, however, that our condition is better than our neighbours' does not alter the fact that it will require courage, work, and understanding both from the Government and the producer if we are not to be faced with harder times. To find the best method of assisting agriculture to surmount its difficulties is one of our main problems at the moment. The De-rating Commission has been sitting for almost a year, and has practically concluded its work. Its report is being drafted and will shortly be in the hands of the Government. I do not wish to anticipate in any way that report or to suggest that de-rating in whole or in part is the most effective method of giving relief to agriculture, but it is obvious that we cannot announce our policy for permanently aiding agriculture until we are in a position to take cognisance of the facts and considerations which the exhaustive examination of that particular Commission will place at our disposal.

I do not think we need waste time in examining the various political panaceas which have been put forward for the salvation of agriculture. Our position in regard to agricultural tariffs is quite simple. So far as beef, mutton, eggs and feeding-barley are concerned, the imports of these are so negligible that tariffs cannot possibly affect the position. So far as the imports of feeding stuffs, wheat and flour, which amount to about £12,000,000, are concerned, any tariffs on these would bankrupt the farmer. The world price for wheat at the moment has reached an almost unbelievably low level, and shows no sign of an increase. Notwithstanding that a Canadian farmer and two men can produce 400 acres of wheat per annum, they cannot sell it at a price which covers the cost of production. The cost of production of the same amount of wheat in this country would be at least five times as great. In these circumstances, the people who suggest the encouragement of wheat growing, mainly at the expense of the farmer, as a means of relieving farmers, are not worth considering. With regard to imported feeding stuffs, these are our raw materials. The fact that they have fallen to such a comparatively low price has been one of the factors which have saved the country during the last three years. I cannot force myself to take seriously the organisation which suggests that taxes be imposed on these raw materials.

With regard to imported bacon, it is admitted that no tariff can increase the price of Irish bacon on the home or on the foreign market. Equally, it is clear that the effect of a tariff on foreign bacon would be to increase the price of low grade bacon to the farmers in the poorer districts and the labourers all over the country who must buy bacon. These results do not commend themselves to us as a method of relieving agricultural districts.

In industrial life, there have been developing in recent years international movements of which the importance has not been fully recognised in the Saorstát. Nevertheless, these movements are fraught with issues of much moment to countries such as ours, striving to increase its industrial activities, and deserve the close attention of all those seriously interested in the factors relating to industrial development.

A series of International Conferences has been held in Geneva, in which the ruling purpose has been the removal or reduction of obstacles to the interchange of commodities within European States. The most active parties at these Conferences have been the countries which, having attained to a high degree of industrial expansion, must enlarge their markets for the output that improved methods of manufacture have, in recent years, so greatly increased. Needless to say, any concerted action with this object involves possible dangers in every State holding the ambition of securing for its people a better balance between secondary and primary production. On the other hand, a sufficient increase in secondary production is necessarily dependent on opportunities for export trade, and countries like the Saorstát stand to gain, as well as to lose, by any common endeavour to facilitate entry into foreign markets.

I mention these considerations in order to show that any doctrine of self-sufficiency in industrial policy is inevitably too facile, and too short-sighted. Such a doctrine may indeed amount to recklessness if based on neglect to study world conditions. There are at present at least five clearly marked groups of States discussing and negotiating economic agreements among themselves, to the effects of which we cannot be indifferent. Economic forces are deploying on the international field which, if their bearing on our interests were not constantly and carefully studied, might go far to stereotype these activities by which we live. They might nullify the best-meant efforts to widen the scope of these activities and broaden the basis for the exercise of our industrial and commercial abilities.

So much skill, experience, and persistence are being devoted to the object of retaining and expending existing markets for secondary products that it is essential for us to admit to our minds, and communicate to the people, no conception of our possible achievements that is not founded on a sober consideration of all the available facts. The Government believes that in creating a whole-time Tariff Commission it will be greatly facilitating industrialists in procuring consideration of that kind for their immediate problems. When first constituted, the Commission had adequate time and experience for the work on which it had to engage. But circumstances have recently undergone a radical change. Conflicting economic interests throughout the world, working under conditions of crisis in many countries, are bringing about changes in fiscal and trade policy, kaleidoscopic in their nature. It becomes imperative for the protection of our interests that the body to which we must entrust the examination of new fiscal proposals should be enabled to come to more prompt, but no less carefully-reasoned, conclusions. The members of the new Tariff Commission will be freed from all other duties and thus will be in a position to concentrate not only on the precise applications before them, but also on the study of all the surrounding and constantly altering factors that must be taken into account.

The Executive Council will be newly empowered to refer proposals to the Commission for examination and report. But it should be understood beyond any possible ambiguity that the Executive Council has no intention of using this power in any case where industrialists themselves can reasonably be expected to prepare and advocate their case. In this connection, I must repeat the axiom, which cannot be too well or too widely appreciated, that it is utterly futile to expect, or pretend to expect, that industrial development can be founded on anything but the requisite measure of skill, initiative and judgment among industrialists themselves. It is so easy to speak of Governments or Departments starting an industry somewhere, but to do so betrays a dangerous indifference to the fundamental necessities of the problem. To start, operate and maintain any substantial industry under the conditions with which the State is now confronted requires a concentrated energy, a width of technical knowledge, and a soundness of judgment such as were not always demanded of the manufacturer in the past.

I have stressed the difficulties and the dangers before us, because if they are not known and honestly appreciated, we shall make no real contribution towards overcoming them. But I do not hesitate to say that if we are not mere political partisans, we are justified in drawing comfort and encouragement from our present circumstances. Many other countries envy our condition. The advance our producers have made during recent years has been maintained and secured. Employment in our tariffed industries remains satisfactory. The register of unemployed is practically the same this year as last, notwithstanding the termination of the great Shannon works, and is much lower than in previous years.

Our exports have substantially increased, notably in manufactured goods, and up to September of this year have exceeded in value the total for any similar twelve months in the last five years by from 1½ to 5¾ million pounds. Contemporaneously, our imports have been reduced, and while an estimate of some invisible items in our trade is not yet practicable, there is little doubt that that trade approaches a satisfactory balance. Taking all circumstances into account, we have no reason for depression over what has been accomplished.

It is recognised, however, that, so far as we reasonably can, we must lighten the present burdens on industry so as to encourage and support the essential initiative of those engaged in it. With this object, the Government has decided on a very substantial reduction in the contributions paid by employer and employees under the Unemployment Insurance Scheme. The total contribution payable for a man will be reduced from 1s. 7d. to 1s. 1d., and the reductions for women and juveniles will be in proportion. The result will be to relieve the employer and employee in industry and commerce to the extent of some £225,000 per annum, while the taxpayer, who has to find the State contribution and the cost of administration, will also be relieved to the extent of about £64,000. These reductions have become possible owing to the approach towards solvency of the Unemployment Fund, the debt of which is now relatively small. They will, undoubtedly, afford a very substantial relief to industry, and facilitate it in meeting pressing competition.

It gives the Government a special satisfaction, in taking this step, to know that there are few other States in the world to-day where it would be possible, and that a country where it can be done, and done without risk to the Unemployment Fund, shows an essential soundness and stability in its economic life which we should openly prize and need not habitually depreciate, or, by recklessness, endanger.

We are asked to debate this statement of the President without any opportunity to examine wherein the figures he gave us are true or fallacious. I noticed here to-day that the Minister for Agriculture, whose habitual attitude towards figures is that you can prove anything by them, took very good care himself to keep to averages which we had no opportunity of checking with a view to ascertaining whether he was making proper use of them. The President also gives us figures. Now we had heard long before we heard the President's statement, that there are some mysterious experts at Geneva who envy us. I wonder do the farmers in this country envy one another at the present time? What we want is not the opinion of some unnamed experts of Geneva, or the electioneering statement of a professor, who is a member of the Government Party, that the last six or seven years have been the most prosperous period in Irish history. We have been hearing of Government spokesmen "turning the corner" for many years past, and all we have got from the President now is a repetition of the statement that everything is splendid in this country. There is not one of those who are finding fault with the Government's policy—its present policy and the policy which it has been following up to the present—who does not realise, perhaps better than the President or members of the Government Party, that we could in this country be really prosperous, that we have in this country resources which, if properly utilised, would give our people a standard of living far higher than the standard they are able to maintain at the present moment.

What we object to is that these resources and the possibilities of this country are not being used as they ought to be used and that the direction which ought to be given from the Government Benches is not given. Everyone of us knows, or ought to know, what has been the history of the economic destruction, if I might use the expression—it is practically an economic destruction—of this country during the last 70 or 80 years. Everyone interested in Irish economics in the past and in the national movement realised that it was the doctrine of free trade, of which we have had expression again from the Government Benches to-day, and which was imposed on this country by British interests, that was responsible for it. We know that there is no other country in the world suffered the destruction of population we have suffered in this country for the last 80 or 90 years, and this destruction of population is going on before our eyes. Since the present Government took office we have had something like 200,000 of our people driven out of this country. These are the figures given in the statistics of the various Departments. There has been a decline in population of 76,000, and an increase of births over deaths of about 127,000; that gives a total of 203,000. On one occasion the President stated that economists stated that the value of the loss to the country of each emigrant as regards the production of wealth was nearer to £1,000 than £500. Therefore we have lost over £100,000,000 of wealth in the period that the present Government is in office. Why is it our people are leaving this country if everything is so fine as the President stated? Why are our people driven out? Is it not a definite test of prosperity whether our people can be retained in the country or not? If there is a general world depression, surely there cannot be all that attraction abroad, if things were anything like represented here? Therefore we want nothing else to satisfy ourselves, whatever figures may be put forward by the President, that things in this country are not what they ought to be, when we find that diminution of our population going on.

As I have said, we have got to debate the question without any opportunity of testing the figures the President has given us, examining them, and seeing wherein they are wrong. As far as we are concerned, at any rate, we are quite satisfied that there has not been an improvement in the wealth of the country since the Free State came into being and we have got the figures to prove it. I happen to have here a few figures with reference to the situation in the country in 1923 and the position as it is this year. Since 1923 there has been a decline in tillage of about 226,000 acres; there has been a decline in the number of cattle of 244,000. There has been a decline in the number of pigs of 241,000. If we try to estimate, even on a conservative basis the amount of wealth that is being produced—the production of wealth in the country in this year as compared with the year 1923, or the past year as compared with 1923—it is something about 5½ millions less; that is, we are producing something like 5½ million pounds' worth less than we were producing at that particular time. On what can the President find a basis for satisfaction? I cannot see it.

If we examine the general condition of our trade, what do we find? We find that we are going in, for the most part, for the least profitable, from the point of view of maintenance of our people, form of production. We are sending out materials that require very little labour in their production. Instead of exporting, as far as possible, the finished product, we are sending out these products practically in an unfinished state. It is obvious what we are doing then by sending out raw materials. Take boots, for instance, where we send out raw hides, giving employment abroad in the tanning of these hides, the tanning of the leather, and buy boots afterwards in exchange. What we are doing is giving raw material to the stranger to work up, and in buying these imported articles, paying for his labour upon them.

We are getting strangers employed— that is a fact—when our own people have got to go idle. If you look at the list of exports and imports, as I have pointed out many a time, you will find that we are importing under the heading of food, drink and tobacco, although we are supposed to be an agricultural country, more than we export. There is a motion in the paper here in Deputy Dr. Ryan's name, and the articles covered by it represent unnecessary imports, on the one hand, of close on £3,000,000. Then, with regard to the whole question of grain, there is something over £11,000,000. That is, if we examine our imports we find that at least 50 per cent. of these imports are unnecessary, and if we set out to produce for ourselves the things we can produce in this country, we could double the present amount of tillage and give profitable employment upon it.

On another occasion I examined the question of the imports of manufactured articles and on a conservative basis we found that if we ourselves manufactured the things we could manufacture in this country you could give employment to something like 90,000 additional hands. That is, we could practically with certainly by producing these things we could produce which we are paying the stranger to produce at the present moment for us give employment to all our unemployed. We have been trying to get some figures of unemployment we can rely upon. Evidently when we look for these figures we are told that nothing exhaustive can be got, but a partial list can be given to us by the President when it suits his purpose. These, as everybody knows, cannot be depended upon at all. They are no evidence of the state of unemployment in the country. At the present moment when the members of the Government are talking just as they are talking to-day of the prosperous country, we who know things by contact with the worker, the shopkeeper and the farmer down the country know that the condition of things is very different from what they pretended it was, and when we wanted to examine the position of the country as a whole we took bulk statistics and found the position revealed by these bulk statistics was the same as we found by our contact with the people to be true. So far as we are concerned on this side of the House, there is absolutely nothing in the President's statement that gives us any hope that the Government are going to adopt a policy that will make for the real up-building of this country. They are simply standing out on this question of what is practically free trade. They are thinking solely of the export market and are completely blinding themselves to the fact that we could with the resources of this country, if we set ourselves out to use them for that purpose, give employment to the people who are at present unemployed and increase the output of wealth in this country.

I think, according to the Census of 1926, that the total output of wealth from industries and agriculture amounts to between £80,000,000 and £86,000,000. I can easily see that no decent standard of living would be possible for the community as a whole with that production of wealth, with three millions of people producing a total wealth of something between £80,000,000 and £86,000,000—I am not quite sure of the figures, as I had no opportunity of knowing what the President was going to speak about. In the Economic Committee we were able to show that the output of wealth from the land could be increased, that more wealth could be produced from an acre of wheat than from an acre under grass, whether it was used for milk or beef. That was proved definitely by the figures that were given. Of course the Minister for Agriculture will not pay attention to any figures that will not suit his own purposes.

Mr. Hogan

Are you still engaged in talking about wheat?

I am still engaged in talking about wheat, and I hope we will talk about it until the policy that is behind the talk is put into practice.

Mr. Hogan

You will be a long time talking.

Let us have no interruptions in this debate.

The production of wealth obviously must be increased if the economic condition of the country is going to be improved. There is no other way of doing it. We have heard about the farmers. We are told that there is a De-rating Commission sitting. If it sits as long as other Commissions it may be that things will have righted themselves by the time the report is given. But here we have a Government collecting and sending out of this country three million pounds which are not due from this country, two millions of which, if given back to the farmers, would be equivalent to the money required for de-rating. That money, as I say, is Irish money and ought to be kept at home. There is no evidence that the Government is going to keep that money, which is rightfully ours, for the Irish people or the benefit of the farming community.

I do not wish to speak further on this matter. We have got to deal with the statement we have got. The only notice we got was that the President was going to make some statement on national policy. The only thing I find he has said is that there is a sum of £300,000 that it is proposed to give on relief. It is a very strange thing that we have to be adopting relief measures if everything is as prosperous as the President has stated. It is practically a recognition of the conditions that we contend exist, and indicates that there is at the back of the President's mind some thought that things are not as rosy or as fine as he would wish. He proposes to give £300,000 to relief, and says that there is a De-rating Commission sitting. I suppose the suggestion is that if the farmers wait for it there will be a favourable report. What is the purpose of telling us about this Committee? Why should it be introduced here if there is not some purpose behind it?

To keep Belton out of the bye-election.

Deputy Davin can make a speech later.

There is a reduction in the insurance contributions. The fund, we are told, is nearing solvency. I suppose it will be nearer solvency when these contributions are taken away. Is that the idea? If it is not, it is obvious that the fund will not be as solvent afterwards as it is now. Otherwise, I would like to know what the President's explanation of the matter is. These are the only things that we heard from the President to meet the present situation, except the assurance that everything is splendid and that there is no need for heroic measures. I do not think that those who are in close contact with the people will agree, and I wonder whether the Farmer Deputies and others on Cumann na nGaedheal Benches are satisfied with that view.

I agree with the last Deputy that it is rather difficult to debate a statement which has been made without any notice by the President, that is, to have anything in the nature of useful debate. I am afraid it is one in which one could, if he wished, travel over the whole economic field, and I doubt if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would not find it very difficult to rule out anything that might be said on this particular question. I wish to confine myself, however, to some points actually raised in the President's statement. At the outset he deprecated the tendency to paint a very gloomy picture of the conditions that exist in the country at the present time. I think those who listened to him and who know what the conditions over the greater part of the country are just at the moment, will agree that he sinned in the other direction. While it is not right that an over-gloomy picture should be painted, neither is it right that an over-glowing picture of the conditions in the country should be painted. The conditions in the country undoubtedly are serious, and, as has been pointed out, that has been admitted in effect by the Government themselves.

A reference was made to the statistics regarding unemployment. It was pointed out that the number registered was lower, that is, the number claiming unemployment benefit was lower. As has been repeatedly pointed out in this House, that is not giving a true picture of the condition of unemployment in the country. People cease to register unless they are entitled to get unemployment benefit. They will not bother to register or to put down their names in unemployment exchanges unless they feel they are going to get benefit, and when their benefit is exhausted they cease to trouble about registration. That affects, of course, the number of people claiming also. I do admit that the increase in the actual number of people registered read out by the President is a hopeful sign, but then again it may be as between the year which he mentioned—I think it was 1922-23—and the present year that there is a very great difference in the amount of compliance with the Act. As the President knows, in those years there was a great deal of looseness in the administration of the Act, and there is undoubtedly very much better compliance with the Act than there was in those earlier years. That, I believe, would account for the percentage of the increase.

The same thing would apply, to some extent, to the sales of the Savings Certificates. Surely the President knows that the organisation for the sale of certificates has been very much improved in recent years.

I do not want for a moment to paint a gloomy picture, or to be unduly pessimistic about the state of the country, and I am ready to recognise any facts that go to show the country is in a healthy condition. I am afraid there is too much importance paid to the points brought out by the President; for instance, this boast that we hear continually about the price of our National Loan. I do not pretend to be an expert in financial matters, but I believe that when you see State funds, like the National Loan, at a very high price or premium, it means that money is not being invested for industrial purposes, and is usually accompanied by industrial depression and inactivity. Looked at from that point of view—I think there is something to be said for it—the fact that the National Loan is at the price it is does not indicate a healthy condition. We need only look across the Channel and see that the War Loan there is at a premium, though we know what the conditions are in regard to unemployment and industrial depression there at present.

Speaking of unemployment, the President referred to the reduction in contributions. I take it the benefit is not to be reduced.

Mr. O'Connell

In so far as that is the decision, it is satisfactory, and will afford a certain relief. I now come to the question of the Tariff Commission. One always likes to see one's advice being taken. I am sure the President will not blame me if I remind him of what was said by the Leader of the Labour Party in 1926, when the Tariff Commission was before the House. The very thing that the Minister is proposing now was urged upon the Government at that time by the Labour Party. They took over four years to find out that the Labour Party were right in what they then urged. I remember how strenuously the suggestion was opposed that the Tariff Commission should, in the first place, be a whole-time body, but especially—and this was specially stressed—that the Tariff Commission should have the right of themselves to take up and examine cases where they thought a tariff might be usefully imposed.

It was left to the interested party to come forward and make application to the Tariff Commission. If there was nobody sufficiently interested in the development of a particular industry here, then nobody made an application for a tariff and there was no question of assisting in any way an industry that might be very suitable to the conditions of the country. I am very glad that that has been changed and that the suggestion has now been adopted as a sound and practicable one. It is well that it has been found out, even at the end of four years. But I do not like that reservation which the President made that they will not act if they think that the industrialists themselves could reasonably be expected to make application. I do not like that limitation. It would seem to be going only half way towards what I think the President has recognised to be a necessity. It would be very difficult to say, if this reservation is made, whether or not industrialists themselves might reasonably be expected to apply for a tariff. It might very often not suit the individual purposes of the industrialists themselves to apply for a tariff whereas it would suit the interests of the community very much if a particular industry were developed and protected. Numerous cases of that kind could be cited.

It is something to be thankful for that the President has recognised that owing to the particular conditions of this year there is a necessity for taking action for relieving the distress that has been caused. He mentioned a certain sum of money—and I say at once I do not think that is sufficient—but so far as it does go it is something that that fact is recognised and that the position is going to be met by such action. No one for a moment thinks or ever thought that relief schemes of this kind are anything but temporary expedients. No one ever suggested anything else. I would like to point out to the President that in addition to the hardships that have arisen owing to the bad harvest and the bad weather and the failure to save the harvest and the fall in prices there are other factors, particularly in the south and west of Ireland, which enter into the consideration this year and make the position very difficult. At Christmas and around about that time there are thousands of families that depend upon the American letters to relieve their distress and to bring some comfort in the Christmas season. Owing to the conditions in America and Canada at the present time there is sure to be a pretty great shortage from that source this season. There is the further fact that the number of unemployed, or, what is more serious, what I have often referred to as the under-employed, amongst the small farming portion of the community is being added to, because whatever measure of relief was available from emigration is now practically stopped. All these will increase the distress which would in any case have occurred owing to economic conditions, and they make the necessity for a measure of immediate relief much greater than in previous years.

I hope no time will be lost in getting this motion passed in reference to the relief schemes and getting the work set on foot. There will be other opportunities of going into these at greater length, and I do not want to dwell upon them here.

There is just one other point arising out of the President's statement. At the outset he deprecated any outcry for State assistance. I do not think there is any objection, in fact, there is a great deal to be said in favour of State assistance, looked at from the right point of view. No one ever suggested that the Government themselves should actually set up industries. I do not think that that was suggested by anybody. They certainly should encourage industries. They have done it already. The Shannon scheme is a big example of national industry. Where would be that national scheme of industry to-day if the State had not come into the field and organised it? There is very great necessity for State direction and organisation and for State encouragement of industry. It is only right that people should look to the State for encouragement and direction. We had a reference to that by the Minister for Agriculture in an earlier debate in his admission that there was a great gap, indeed, between the price the agricultural producer got for his eggs and the price the consumer had to pay in Britain or in this country. Everyone knows that the difference between the price that has to be paid in Dublin and what the producer gets for his eggs or fowl or anything of that nature is very great indeed. It is all swallowed up by the middleman. The Minister admitted the need for organisation. I go further and say it is the duty of the State to come to the help of the individual farmers, to direct them, to guide them towards organisation for the purpose of marketing their produce so that they will be able to get more for their work.

As I say, I do not see that there is that old-time objection that we hear advanced from time to time. I think it is practically dead. It should be dead. In view of what the present Government themselves have done, there should not be continual deprecation of State interference or State assistance. It is only natural that when people find themselves in distress they should look for guidance to those whom they have elected to power in this country. There will be other opportunities on motions on the Paper for discussing and dwelling further upon particular points in connection with the President's statement, and I do not wish to refer further to these points at this stage.

I am personally at a loss to know what aim the President had in view when he adopted this unusual procedure of moving the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of reading to us a number of inaccurate, misleading, and misinterpreted figures. Does he really think that he can create the reality of prosperity by pretending that it exists, or does he really believe that other nations are, in fact, envious of the prosperity we are enjoying? Is it the Government's view that the problem of unemployment can be removed by suppressing the figures relating to it, or by producing wrong figures in this House? It seems to me that if the statement just made by the President is the sum total of the Government's policy for dealing with the present situation, then this country is faced with a period of much greater hardship than anything it has known during the past four or five years, and the sooner the Government is removed from office in the interests of the people of the country the better.

It is very hard to know where to begin to put Deputies right concerning the figures produced by the President. He tells us that the number of Savings Certificates issued has shown a remarkable increase, and that the price of Government stock is higher than it was some time ago. He did not offer to produce the figures relating to bank deposits. I suggest to Deputies that the fact that the financial resources of the people are being put into long-term gilt-edged investments is an indication of commercial stagnation and not an indication of commercial activity. If the country were prosperous, if trade were active, if industry were reviving, these resources would be withdrawn from the gilt-edged market and made available for the financing of the activities of industry and commerce.

The figures relating to the external trade balance are also flung at the Dáil in the hope that they will be misunderstood. Undoubtedly the adverse trade balance has decreased because the aggregate value of our imports and exports has decreased. The aggregate value of our total trade has gone down because of the world fall in prices. The adverse trade balance has been further decreased because of the obvious fact that we are now in the position of possessing a very valuable export trade in tractors from the port of Cork. In fact, there has not been any decrease in the quantity of goods imported, nor has there been any substantial increase in the quantity of goods sent out.

If Deputies will take the figures recently published for the first nine months of this year, they will find the industrial position, as revealed by these figures, is rapidly becoming worse. For example, the quantity of wheat imported during that period was 800,000 cwts. less than the quantity imported in the same period last year, while the quantity of flour imported had increased by 175,000 cwts. Less wheat is coming in to be milled and more flour. The employment that used to be given in the production of flour from imported wheat for our people is now being given on the Mersey side.

Similar conditions obtain in respect of other trades. The President stated that employment in the tariffed industries is being well maintained. That is not true. The employment given, for example, by the coach-building industry has very seriously declined in the last twelve months.

They were 300 up on 1st September.

I do not know what figures the Minister is talking about.

The figures for the tariffed industries were up by 300 on 1st September.

Included in the aggregate total which the Minister has given now are industries like tobacco, which are not tariffed industries as such.

They have not increased.

There are other industries like that.

The 300 is outside the tobacco industry.

For example, the Minister regards the motor industry as a tariffed industry.

There are tariffs on imported motor parts and motor cars, but the industry does not exist. I say that in the industries in which we are or should be vitally concerned, such as the coachbuilding industry, the woollen industry, the flour-milling industry, and industries of that nature, employment is going down, despite the fact that a number of them are tariffed. I do not think the Minister can contradict that.

I do not know why flour should be brought into the tariffed industries.

It should be, but it is not. Employment in the woollen industry is going down. The inadequate tariff imposed proved practically ineffective.

Absolutely ineffective in restricting importation.

Quite wrong.

Is it not a fact that the quantity—not the price, but the quantity—of cloth imported here for the year 1929 was substantially higher than the quantity imported in 1928?

Let the Minister look at the nine months' figures I have referred to and he will find that the quantity of cloth imported during the first nine months of this year equals the quantity imported in the entire year 1926.

Because there has been a fall in price.

Surely the fall in price does not account for the increase in the quantity imported?

It does. It brings certain articles under the exemption limit which previously were not under it.

It would be much better if the Deputy were allowed to make his own speech.

The figures produced by the President in relation to unemployment were produced, I submit, by him, although he must have known that they were going to have the effect of misleading Deputies concerning the position. We are told that the number of persons claiming benefit this year is 58 per cent. less than the number who claimed benefit in 1922. Is it not a fact that there was extended benefit in 1922? Were not the Unemployment Insurance Acts extended in that year so as to provide benefit for a large number of people who are not now entitled to it?

Does not that fact account for the decrease in the number of persons claiming benefit? We are told that the number of persons registered as unemployed is also less. I submit that that is also accounted for by the fact that this extended benefit no longer operates and that people do not bother to register as unemployed unless they are likely to receive an advantage from so doing. I admit that a decrease in unemployment was to be expected in view of the fact that the population has decreased and because over 300,000 persons emigrated since 1922 because they could not get employment in this country. The figures relating to the total number of persons insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts have also been produced as proof of improved conditions. These figures have increased as Deputy O'Connell pointed out in consequence of the better enforcement of the Acts in the first place, and in consequence of such projects as the Shannon Scheme, which brought under those Acts for the first time a large number of persons who were formerly agricultural workers and therefore uninsurable. The Government is, of course, in a very favourable position to pretend that things are different to what they are, because they have taken good care to suppress the information which Deputies should have to enable them to judge the position in its true light. The Minister has promised to make a long statement this evening to explain why he now discovers that no unemployment statistics were ascertained in 1926. In 1928 I asked the Minister why the unemployment statistics that were ascertained by the Census of 1926 were not published, and he told me they were being prepared.

That was not the question.

It was similar in effect.

No, it was different.

I do not think so. The Minister told me that the statistics were being prepared and would be published within four months from the date of the question.

The statistics referred to in the Deputy's question?

Twelve months ago I asked a similar question, and the Minister told me it had been decided by him that in the same volume as that containing unemployment statistics there would also be published statistics concerning industries and industrial occupations, and that such was the reason for the delay in publishing the volume. When I asked to-day, for the third time, I was told that the Minister has discovered now what he did not know last year or the previous year, namely, that no unemployment figures were ascertained when the census was taken. I say that the figures have been suppressed, because the Minister knows that their publication would finish for ever the making of such statements as that which we have heard from the President this evening. This game of pretending that the last eight years have been the most prosperous which the Irish people knew in all their long history would be finished if the Minister for Industry and Commerce was not prepared to manipulate his Department so as to prevent the people getting the information to which they are entitled and for which they have paid.

The Government's contribution to the relief of the situation that exists in this country, in so far as they are prepared to admit that there is any situation to be relieved, is, first of all, the reduction in the contributions to be paid under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. Of course, a reduction in these contributions was to be expected. The President comes to the Dáil and announces this great concession as if it was something upon which the Government had determined as a special gift to the people in the existing circumstances. Deputies know that the Unemployment Insurance Fund has been showing a large surplus each year for the last few years, and that it was only a matter of time until either the contributions payable would be reduced or the benefits obtainable would be increased. The Government choose to reduce the contributions. It costs the Government nothing. In fact, a reduction in contributions will mean that the Exchequer will have to pay considerably less towards the fund than it has been paying hitherto. The Exchequer's contribution will be decreased side by side with the contributions from the employers and employees. The second step to be taken to remove poverty is the establishment of a whole-time Tariff Commission, the names of the members of which have already been announced. It will not be an improvement on the last one, inasmuch as some of its members are avowed free traders. What use will it be to increase the production of reports such as that which we got yesterday? If we had fifty Commissions producing reports like that every day of the week, how is Irish industry going to be improved?

It is not a whole-time Tariff Commission which we want, but a whole-hog Protectionist Commission. So long as the Government policy is going to be one of innate hostility to Irish industry, and based on the assumption that tariffs are unnecessary, then no matter what machinery they erect, the position will not be improved. I have asserted before, and I assert again now, that the attitude of the Government should be that protection is the right policy for every industry, and that the job of the Tariff Commission should be to decide whether reductions or exemptions should be given in particular tariffs in consequence of the circumstances of, or their effect on, particular trades. The establishment of the whole-time Tariff Commission will not improve matters in view of the personnel of that Commission and the policy of the Government that is behind it.

Then, of course, we are told that there is a De-rating Committee sit ting. Like Deputy de Valera, I want to know why that particular matter was brought into this discussion. Is it intended to give farmers, in the constituency in which there is about to be a bye-election, the impression that a favourable report will come from that Committee? Was that the reason? The Minister for Agriculture says that he does not think that a favourable report will come from it. Then why was it mentioned here? If there is not to be a favourable report, then obviously it will not help to solve the problem of depression, the problem of poverty, and the problem of unemployment.

The third and last step to be taken to solve these problems is the granting of a sum of £300,000 for relief measures. I have no objection to the granting of that money, but I hope that no Deputy is under the delusion that, by the mere expenditure of £300,000 this year amongst the unemployed, the problem of unemployment will be solved, or even that any considerable alleviation of the misery that exists amongst our people is going to take place. I do not know what the number of the unemployed is. I made an estimate before of 50,000, but that estimate was questioned by the Minister. I do not think that it is an exaggeration to say that there are 50,000 industrial unemployed in the Free State, but whether the number is 50,000 or 40,000 it is, I think, much larger than the number which could be said to represent the normal reserve of Industry. Neither do I think that the world depression, which is so often referred to, has produced any considerable number of unemployed in this country. The world slump has not yet resulted in any considerable increase in the number of unemployed here. Of those unemployed in the Irish Free State a very large number are persons whose occupations are permanently gone, due to causes that are neither temporary nor stationary, and which arise out of the fact that there is a dearth of industry in this country. The problem of unemployment will not be solved, and our idle men will not be provided with work, until steps are taken by the Government to create a situation which will make possible a revival of industry.

As Deputy O'Connell has pointed out, the world depression has undoubtedly hit the agricultural community very hard, and has created a very serious situation amongst the farmers, whom he describes as under-employed. There are upwards of 200,000 persons engaged in agriculture in the Twenty-Six Counties on farms of less than 15 acres in extent. Of that number 35 per cent. live in the counties of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. These persons are undoubtedly hard hit by the collapse in prices and the bad weather which prevailed this year. Their situation is likely to be desperate unless special measures for their relief are undertaken. A Vote of £300,000 is inadequate for that purpose, even if it be spent entirely on the relief of such persons. The fact is that there are more persons endeavouring to get a living from the land than the land, as now utilised, can support. The result is that the standard of living is low, that there are no reserves, and that any period of depression produces immediate hardship. Until the system of using the land is altered so that more employment can be provided on it, and until industries have been started that will give occupation to the surplus population on the land, we are likely to have these periods of depression recurring quite frequently and relief votes being passed here in order to deal with them.

I think we ought to face up to the fact that the problem is too big to be solved out of taxation. We cannot take any adequate steps to deal with the situation if we confine ourselves to the amount which we can afford to vote out of current revenue for that purpose. If relief schemes are properly devised, then they will repay themselves, directly by increasing our wealth and wealth-producing capacity and indirectly by improving the health and the social standards of the people. When, however, we come here with a suggestion that the good credit position of the State, about which we hear so much, should be utilised for the benefit of the State, or, in other words, that money should be borrowed for the purpose of undertaking definite State schemes of work at this period, we are told that economic schemes cannot be devised. The Minister for Finance and his colleagues think of these questions in terms of interest and sinking fund only, ignoring the fact that the lives and the livelihoods of men, women and children are also involved.

We cannot consider the advisability of embarking upon such State schemes on a narrow basis of financial economy alone. We must also consider that there are wider national interests affected. We have suffered a very considerable loss in population as a result of emigration during the last seven or eight years. Emigration is not economic. If it were possible to estimate in terms of money the loss which the State has endured in consequence of emigration it would be shown that the capital loss to the State would amount to five or six times our national debt. If we could keep these men and women working at home, as a result of borrowing and spending money for that purpose, then that borrowing and spending would be justified even if the Comptroller and Auditor-General had to report that it resulted in a financial loss. It is because the Government have hesitated to tackle the problem in an adequate manner that they deserve the censure of the Dáil and the people. This £300,000 is only a sop thrown for the purpose of silencing the critics in their own Party.

It is common knowledge that members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party have become thoroughly dissatisfied at the attitude of the Government. We know that there was a Party meeting last night, at which there was some strong talk about the attitude of Ministers. As a result of that we have this sop of £300,000 flung at the Party, which they can use to bribe their own supporters and keep them quiet. We know that it will be spent, as every other similar Vote was spent, for the exclusive benefit of Cumann na nGaedheal supporters. We know that no supporters of either Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party are going to benefit by it, no matter how urgent their needs may be. This £300,000 is for the purpose of keeping the back benchers of Cumann na nGaedheal quiet, and for that alone. The Government appear to be absolutely indifferent both to the needs of the country and of the people.

It would perhaps be too much to hope that the Minister for Agriculture would change his outlook at this stage. He has been imbibing wisdom from our betters in London and has, no doubt, come back confirmed in the faith that absolute freedom of trade between the two islands is in the best interests of both, even though all history gives him the lie, so far as this country is concerned. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, of course, has no concern in the matter at all. His first act when the Dáil reassembled after a five months' adjournment was to ask to ratify a commercial treaty with Portugal. That is indicative of his whole policy. We will get other opportunities, as Deputy O'Connell pointed out, of discussing the various measures which the Government propose to take to deal with the situation as they come before us. The one point that it is necessary to make clear now is that the statement which the President made here to-day was not delivered for the purpose of informing the people of the country concerning Government policy. It was not delivered for the purpose of removing any fears and doubts that may exist amongst the people. Its sole purpose was to prevent the stampede from the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal which has been threatening for the past month. It was a pure political manoeuvre and an attempt to represent it as anything else is so much hypocrisy.

I am very pleased to see that the Government have realised the seriousness of the situation that has been caused by the unprecedentedly wet season and that they have come to the rescue, as I knew they would come, with this sum of £300,000 for the relief of the persons affected. I do not say that the £300,000 will meet the situation, but it is something to go on with. I am sorry to see that the Fianna Fáil Party are so worried and annoyed because the Government have come to the rescue of these people. As there will be a debate at a later stage in connection with the allocation of this money, I will only draw attention this evening to some of the persons who are suffering most and whom I have seen myself. They are not living in Dublin, but in the country, in the middle of the areas where the floods have caused the most damage. There are many people, as I can testify myself, living in low-lying areas who have lost all their crops—their turf, potatoes, and hay. Undoubtedly, their condition is very serious. I hope, when this money is being allocated, that they will get a fair proportion of it. I know many industrious people, and the potato crops they sowed in the spring, and which they hoped to have to keep them during the winter, are at the moment under water. During the last few weeks of the Recess I have been over parts of the country "having a shot" and I have seen for myself the conditions under which many people in the low-lying areas are living. In their homes they are up to their knees in water. I have asked myself the question, why were these people ever born to live under such conditions? Their crops have been lost and the water is pouring into their houses. In my opinion, a considerable proportion of this money ought to be allocated for their relief. Through no fault of their own the crops have been lost. They ought to be provided with potatoes or whatever else they require to enable them to feed their children and themselves during the winter period.

The reduction to be made in the sums paid by employers and employees will be very much appreciated. This reduction will help to develop trade and employment in the country. It is a great tribute to our Government to be able to do that. There is no other Government in the world that, under the present conditions, could come along and do what our Government is proposing to do. I have been in England recently. The conditions there are nothing short of deplorable. The number of unemployed is increasing there every other day. The prospects there seem to me to be very bad.

What benefit do they get when out of work?

The conditions there seem to be worse than in any country in the world, with the exception perhaps of America. I have seen them for myself, and I have heard people there say so too. Owing to the state of unemployment and the succession of financial crashes that have occurred in many countries of the world, the purchasing price of almost every commodity has been adversely affected to a considerable extent. Although I know and realise what the conditions are in this country—I know they are very bad—I think on the other hand, that in view of the circumstances which I have mentioned, we could be a lot worse off than we are. The people have no money to spend in England. In view of that they are not able to purchase our agricultural products to the extent that they used to. Because of that, the prices for our agricultural products have been very adversely affected, and in the circumstances we cannot expect a very brilliant year. In view of the fact that we will have another opportunity of discussing this vote, I do not intend to say much more at the present time, except to congratulate the Government very sincerely on its splendid effort. As I said earlier, I do not think the sum that is being provided is at all enough, and I hope it will be possible to do something more for our farmers who are certainly very hard hit by present conditions.

When the persons to whom I have referred have been provided for out of this Vote, I hope that any of it that is given by way of providing employment will be spent on drainage schemes. A considerable amount of money has been spent on the roads, and not enough, in my opinion, on drainage. Everyone knows that every acre of land that is reclaimed is a national asset to the country. I will conclude by again congratulating the Government on taking the step it has taken. I hope it will not be necessary to do this again, but should the necessity arise I know that the Government will do what they have always done, namely, come along and save the country.

The statement made by the President this evening will, no doubt, be regarded by the Government Party managers as a successful attempt to forestall the discussion which will take place on the motion on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Ryan, and on the other motion to be moved by Deputy O'Connell. It will not, I am sure however, deceive the thousands of people throughout the country who are hoping and expecting that this session of the Dáil, at an early stage, will take the necessary steps to deal with the serious situation which we all know exists all over the country. I am not going to be trapped into the discussion which, in the ordinary course, will take place to-morrow on the motion to be moved by Deputy Ryan, and therefore to that extent I am not going to satisfy the curiosity of the people who sit on the Ministerial Benches.

In the discussion on a Bill that was before the House this evening, the Minister for Agriculture admitted, for the first time as far as I remember, that the low prices which the agricultural community are now receiving for their agricultural produce in the local and foreign markets are due to the number of middle men who come in between the producer and the consumer whether the consumer be a citizen of this State or of some other country. On that matter, Deputies are well aware that the question of profiteering which the Minister now admits to be taking place——

Mr. Hogan

I do not.

Deputies will remember that this House set up a Food Prices Tribunal three or four years ago. The members of it made certain recommendations which, in their opinion would, if given effect to, have dealt satisfactorily with the profiteering which was admitted to be going on in the country. In my opinion profiteering is going on to a greater extent now than it was at the time that the members of that Tribunal reported. I desire to ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce when he proposes to adopt the recommendations that were put before him by that Tribunal for the purpose of dealing with the question of profiteering. The President and other Ministers have adopted the policy of referring to Commissions every awkward question that has been raised in this House during the past six or seven years. If these Commissions have any sort of an awkward question to deal with, they generally sit for a number of years. During the sittings of these Commissions, if any awkward questions are asked by Deputies in the House, they are told by the Government that they can do nothing until they receive the report of this, that or the other Commission.

The President, in his statement this evening, made the same kind of promise in regard to de-rating that has been given to Deputies in regard to other matters. He said that the Government hoped to have the report of the De-rating Commission in their possession at an early date, presumably giving the impression to Deputies, who do not know what has been going on, that the Government will act upon whatever report this Commission may make. I have no faith whatever in that particular Commission, and on a previous occasion I said so in this House, because it is composed of too many people. I can see that body making probably a majority report and two or three minority reports, and the President and his Ministers doing what they have done on previous occasions, namely, coming before the House and saying that they cannot make up their minds because this Commission could not agree upon a definite scheme in connection with de-rating. I am sure that the President will, as a result of the statement he made this evening, satisfy the curiosity of many of his wavering supporters in the County Dublin. That statement may have the effect of possibly reducing the number of candidates who might otherwise take part in that by-election. That will serve a useful purpose from the point of view of the party managers; but will it satisfy that particular section of the President's supporters in the country?

With regard to the question of the development of industry, I want to know from the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he can furnish the House even with approximate figures showing the extent to which private capitalists have put their money into industries which have received the benefit of tariffs. I ask the question because I want to find out whether there is going to be any possible chance of ever hoping for the development or the setting up of new industries while relying solely on capital put into these industries by Irish or foreign capitalists. I hope the Minister will furnish the House with whatever information he has on that point. I agree with Deputy O'Connell when he says that if we are to look forward to industrial development in this country the State itself will have to go in and provide the capital for that particular purpose, and, having provided the capital, will have to take such steps as will guarantee to the new industries a guaranteed market for whatever they are prepared to turn out. I am one of those who hold that the boot tariff has failed to serve the purpose for which it was imposed.

The Minister for Agriculture in dealing with tariffs on imported food stuffs refused to approach the consideration of such claims because he is of the opinion that the imposition of these tariffs will help to increase the cost of the particular commodity to the consumer or purchaser. Does he deny that he has a share of responsibility for the imposition of the boot tariff? And does he know that the failure of Irish capitalists or of the Government to put into that industry a certain amount of capital is enabling those who are importing boots in increased quantities to pass the amount of the duty on to the purchasers in this country? If it is good and sound policy to provide capital at the expense of the taxpayers of this State for the development of industry, it is far more sound from the national point of view for the Government to take such steps as would protect the millions of capital that the Irish farmers and landowners have in the land, and which is the only national asset we have.

Deputy Shaw took off his hat, but I was glad to see he did not lose it, to cheer the President and to congratulate him on coming forward with a supplementary estimate of £300,000 for the purpose of relieving the distress which exists. Does he realise that the £300,000 the President has promised to provide for this particular purpose means only £11,000 per administrative county in the Free State? Is the Deputy going to get up in this House and tell the people, particularly his constituents, that that meets the immediate demand in regard to unemployment and distress in his own area?

It is the first instalment, and I said that I did not consider it enough.

I consider it is not enough to meet the immediate demands of the situation. I do not profess to know very much about Deputy Shaw's constituency, but that amount does not meet the immediate demands so far as my constituency is concerned—£11,000 to help the people who are suffering from the results of unemployment and low prices, and the poverty created thereby during the next six or seven months. The President is not aware of the situation that exists in the country if he thinks that scheme meets the immediate needs of the situation. I deny it. With regard to the setting up of the permanent Tariff Commission, four years ago Senator Johnson, who was then leader of the Labour Party, spoke on the 30th June, 1926, on the subject. He opposed the proposals then made for the setting up of what was meant to be a part-time Commission. It would be of interest, perhaps, to the President to hear me quote some passages from the speech made by Senator Johnson on that occasion. He said:

"It should not be a part-time Commission; its members should not be men selected to inquire into one application or another application, and when they have turned the applications down, return to their Departmental work. It ought to be a Commission set up by the Executive Council, a Commission which would necessarily have an immense amount of work to do, which would relieve the Department of Industry and Commerce and somewhat relieve the Department of Finance, but which would be a Commission with very considerable powers to inquire into the effects on the national economic life of tariffs which have been initiated and imposed, the effect upon the particular industries and the reactions upon other industries. The Commission should have power to inquire into the needs of an industry. It would require to understand what the policy of the State is in regard to the whole question."

That was four years ago when the agricultural and industrial community of this country were looking forward to the work of the Commission as likely to bring them some hope. Four years have elapsed since that recommendation was put forward. What has been done in the meantime for the agricultural community as a result of that part-time Commission? To give an illustration of their activities, apart from the question Deputy Lemass has raised in this House on so many occasions as to the long time taken by the Tariff Commission to deal with the application from people associated with the coach-building industry, as a result of pressure which was brought to bear on the Minister for Agriculture last year, he asked the members of this part-time Commission to inquire into an application made by the Irish Grain Growers' Association. I am sure the members of that Association will not be glad to-morrow to read the President's statement that he does not take their views into consideration.

I wonder from whom the President and the Minister for Agriculture take their views regarding the needs of the farming community? Is it that a Party meeting is relied upon to get this information? I do not think that Deputy Shaw would go out of his way to mislead the Minister on this question. Members of the part-time Tariff Commission were requested on 3rd December last year to inquire immediately into the effect of the proposals put forward by the Irish Grain Growers' Association. Twenty-one persons gave evidence in support of that demand. I want the House to understand that as far as I know these 21 individuals were practical working tillage farmers. Fourteen persons, some of whom never took a spade or shovel in their hands, were brought by the scruff of the necks to give evidence against the proposals. Technical experts were also brought forward to give evidence, but as I have not read their evidence, I am not competent to express an opinion upon it. The point I want to make is that though that Commission was set up on 3rd December and concluded its public sittings on 12th March, we are told by the President to-day that they are at present engaged in drafting their report.

If anyone can read anything into the speech made by the Minister for Agriculture in Carlow one can easily anticipate what the recommendations will be. The very fact that they have gone out of existence as a result of the action taken by the Ministry goes to show that these people will not be allowed to live so long as to be called upon to defend whatever report they are going to make. However, a permanent Tariff Commission is now going to be set up. That body is going to consist of civil servants, presumably of the same type and outlook as the men who have been on the part-time body. I venture to suggest—I would not say anything in this House against any of the civil servants who are to act on that body. I am not sure whether the names of those who are to serve on that body as published are correct—that they are bound as civil servants to be influenced by the emphatic statements made on these matters by the Minister for Agriculture and other Ministers. Therefore, the farming community have little to hope for from such a body, whether it be a permanent or a temporary one. I hope, however, that, seeing that the members of this particular body will be engaged on full-time work, that that fact alone will enable them to bring in their reports or recommendations, whatever they may be, with greater speed than the body which is now disappearing. I always held the view that it was quite impossible for busy men like the men who composed the part-time body to do their duty to the State as the heads of a Department from day to day and from week to week and, at the same time, to do this very difficult work which requires very great consideration and to do it in their spare time. The Ministry, after four years, have come to the conclusion that a permanent body is necessary. I hope that some better results will come from this body than those we have seen up to the present. I am sure it will satisfy many of the big industrialists as well as members of the Chamber of Commerce and so on, to know that they will, in future, get the benefit of the reduction of £250,000 which will come as a result of the re- duction in contributions to the Unemployment Insurance Fund.

They will not.

The President gave the impression that it was being done so as to help industry and commerce.

And that it is to be divided between the employers and the employees.

Yes, and the amount which the employers will benefit is supposed to be given in the shape of help by the Government for the development of industries. I hope it is not the same help as was given three years ago when the same Government reduced the income tax by one shilling in the £. Can the Minister tell us in what way that reduction of income tax helped in the setting up of any new industry in the Saorstát in the intervening period?

By comparison of the unemployment in the Free State to-day with unemployment in Great Britain.

I want to state that I am expressing the opinion of my own Party in stating that any saving to be effected in this respect should go for the purpose of better unemployment benefits to the people who are out of work, and an extension of the period for the payment of benefit. I object, because I know from previous experience, that any assistance supposed to be given for the development of industry never has the desired effect, and that its only effect will be to help to provide those bloated capitalists, many of whom live in the County Dublin, with more money to spend on pleasure. I believe that the Government Party managers will regard that also as another gesture at a very critical time to people who might otherwise be looked upon as very doubtful supporters.

Before the President or any Minister replies, I think we might have some explanation of one apparently contradictory feature of his statement. The President seems to exult in the fact that the Government had saved the farmers in the Free State from the danger of cereal production. He seemed to say that corngrowing had proved a terrible misfortune for many countries, and that the Government's wisdom in discouraging the production of wheat, for instance, was fully justified in the present circumstances. At the same time he referred to another fact in connection with the agricultural life of the country—that the price of butter has gone down to a very serious extent, and that it is likely to go further. He said that a market has to be found abroad for about £4,000,000 worth of butter every year.

I think it is admitted that the present price of butter in the English market, or, at least the prices paid to the producers, is below the cost of production. Certainly, most farmers hold that 95/- per cwt., which was the price paid for butter for a good many weeks past by the Central Marketing Organisation, is very much below the cost of production. In the face of that, I wonder how are we to take the President's statement with regard to corn-growing? Is it a lot better to be supplying £4,000,000 worth of butter to the British below the cost of production so as to encourage them to produce goods cheaper in order that they may be better able to compete with our manufacturers in the making of goods—is it a lot better to do that than to encourage the growing of wheat for our own consumption? I think that no body of agriculturalists would very seriously maintain that view. I think if we are producing at a loss at all, we should, at least, produce for ourselves at a loss rather than produce for our neighbours at a loss. To my mind, that would seem very much the better thing.

I think that a good deal of confusion has arisen amongst the members of the Government with regard to grain-growing. They are deliberately confusing the issues in this way. Countries producing wheat for export are in a bad way, being unable to find a market for their production. The Government argue, therefore, that the production of wheat would be a bad thing for us. But nobody has ever proposed that we should go so far in the production of wheat as to grow wheat for export. Yet the President's statement could only have been founded on that supposition. A similar statement certainly was to be found in an article written by the Minister for Education at an interview given by him after his return from Geneva.

The President's words this afternoon seemed to be almost a repetition of what the Minister for Education said after his return from Geneva—that wheat-growing countries were to be pitied, and that this Government's wisdom in not giving any encouragement to the growing of wheat in this country was fully justified by the present circumstances. So far, however, from that being proved, it seems to me the cases assume a much stronger complexion than ever, in view of the President's prophecy that the price of butter will continue to fall for some time to come; and that we shall be in the position that £4,000,000 worth of butter will be produced annually in this country to be sold abroad very much below the cost of production. The point is one on which I would like an explanation, because as they stand the President's remarks are contradictory. There is a further matter that I would like some information on. The President, in referring to the European situation, talked about the movement against tariffs. He seemed to think that it was rather a sinister movement, and that it was initiated by the big indusrial countries that were at present without sufficient markets for their products. If I am right, I think the movement started with the World's Economic Conference called by the League of Nations, and that there were a number of Saorstát representatives at that Conference, and that those representatives signed the unanimous report that issued from that Conference practically in favour of Free Trade.

There was certainly the suggestion that there should be a strong effort made to get rid of tariffs.

That is not so. Has the Deputy got the report?

It is not in the Library.

Then when did the Deputy read it?

In my own home. At all events, I think the Minister will not deny that the whole tendency of that report was to deprecate the imposition of tariffs; as a matter of fact, it suggested the immediate reduction of tariffs in every country and it was, in spirit at all events, a free trade document. It is rather strange that one of the Saorstát representatives who signed that report was the present Chairman of the Tariff Commission. I think he was at that time, too, the Chairman of the Tariff Commission.

Who signed what report?

The report of the World Economic Conference. It was signed by the present Chairman of the Tariff Commission.

Did the Deputy read that at home, too?

Yes. There were three or four representatives from this State at that Conference. I presume the reference to the movement for co-operation between various countries which the President made in his statement touches on the coming together of the Scandinavian nations and other nations in South-Eastern Europe and I presume the purpose of that was to cover the failure of the Imperial Conference. It would not do if people were to think that all the time and money spent on the Imperial Conference was entirely wasted or that there was no parallel for it in other countries. We were told then that this movement towards co-operation is general and that therefore it was quite natural for the Saorstát to spend plenty of time and money endeavouring to come to an arrangement with regard to inter-Common-wealth trade. If people are satisfied with that sort of explanation, it cannot be helped, but I rather think the farmers will not be satisfied. They will not be satisfied either with the programme set out here this evening. Obviously, the £300,000 to be spent on unemployment is of no great importance to farmers. It will, I hope, give a good deal of employment to those now without work, but it will not by any means give all the employment that will be required.

The decision to reduce the payments in respect of unemployment insurance is not a thing that will affect farmers. The one thing that they will have to be satisfied with is the setting up of a whole-time Tariff Commission. If that does its work well and satisfactorily no one will be more glad than we on these benches, but it seems to me that in the present circumstances a great deal more than that is required. Judging from the accounts that reach us every day, the position of the average farmer could not be much worse. To ask him to put his trust in a whole-time or a part-time Tariff Commission and to say to him: "That is all we can do for you," is a callous attitude on the Government's part.

The Government has gloried in the fact that they have created an efficient State. They have declared that the money spent on the State was well spent and that the people are getting thoroughly good value. Now at a period of greater crisis than we have ever experienced in our time the farmers are told that the State cannot do anything for them. "This wonderful State that we have been urging you to admire and to consider as a tremendously good investment, is powerless to do anything for you in this time of crisis." That is rather an unfortunate message for any Government to send out, and excuses such as that State interference is unwise and should not be expected in ordinary business will not justify the denial of more prompt and efficient assistance for farmers than was outlined for us this evening.

I am disappointed, in more senses than one, at this debate. I did think that people who were protesting so much about the state of the country would take the matter seriously enough to discuss it intelligently. After listening to this debate for two hours, I must say that the people most vocal during the last six months in their references to the scandalous and bankrupt state of this country seem to be utterly unable to make a single constructive contribution in respect of any issue dealt with by the President. The best thing they can say is what has been said by their leaders—"We want notice of those figures; they appear to be right, but we hope to find on examination that they are wrong." That is just about what Deputy de Valera's speech came to.

The President gave some figures which are very important as an indication of the financial and economic conditions of the country. He gave them, not with the object of showing that this country is extremely prosperous or even prosperous, but with the object of showing that the picture painted by Deputies opposite, both here and outside, and by supporters of theirs through the country—that this country is not only bankrupt but is in a worse position than any other country in Europe—is not alone false, but unpatriotic. I will even go so far as to say that such statements are treasonable. There is no use in attacking the President's statement on the lines that it indicates this country is at the moment brimful of prosperity. The President has made no such case whatever. What are the figures which he has given? Is it denied that the National Loan and our loans generally are an indication of our credit? Is it denied that quotations of these loans on our own Exchange and on the London and New York Exchanges are at least some indication of the country's financial credit and stability? I do not think that that can be denied.

I take it that, apart from reading and re-reading their own speeches, Deputies read the papers. I take it that they keep themselves in touch with such commercial matters as the ordinary man in the street is bound to take into consideration. Even the man in the street, not to speak of statesmen, is bound to keep in touch with certain information of the nature I have referred to. Are the figures which the President has quoted correct? Is it a fact that all our loans are at a premium? Is it a fact that the Agricultural Credit Corporation, which we established, and which borrows, to some extent, on the credit of the State, finds no difficulty in getting money? Is it no indication of our financial position that we are able to borrow at least as good as England or as good as any of the first-class countries of the world? Is it any answer to the President's statement for Deputy de Valera to say, "I have not had an opportunity of examining the figures; I do not know whether they are correct or not," and practically to indicate that he proposes to examine them, and his only hope is that they may be found to be incorrect?

That is the point of view I complain of. I say, in all seriousness, that it seems to me the condition of the country—and when I speak of the country I mean not only the farmers, but the industrialists, the merchants and the labourers—is looked upon by the Party opposite, not so much from the point of view of co-operating in bettering it, but from the point of view of seeing what political capital, at the expense of the Government, they can make out of it.

I say that quite deliberately. I think that that is a shocking point of view. I remember two or three years ago, when the trade balance was not as healthy as it is now—when the trend of the trade balance was in the opposite direction—day after day and week after week listening here to speeches made from the opposite benches in which figures were quoted to us regularly showing the trend of the trade balance and the amount of the adverse trade balance. Personally, I am not so young as to think that the trade balance by itself is a clear indication of the state of the country commercially or financially. I go no further than to say that it is some indication. But the very people who used the trend of the trade balance then to show that the country was going towards bankruptcy take no notice whatever of the trade balance now, when the trend is shown by the fact that it has fallen from 19.3 to something like 10. What does that attitude indicate? Does it indicate concern for the country? I say it does not—that it does not indicate concern either for the farmers or for the business people of the country. It indicates concern for whatever political capital can be made out of the misfortunes of the people. I protest against that attitude, and I say that that has been the attitude adopted by the Party opposite in this debate. That is one aspect of the question.

The people who do not know anything about these figures, the people who do not know what way the trade balance is going now, the people who do not know anything about how the National Loan stands, who want time to examine those matters, are ready to give us other figures. We are told that tillage has declined, that live stock has declined, that the number of cattle in the country is less than it was and that prices have declined. It is suggested that they have declined more in this country than in any other country. If that is not the suggestion, then there was no reason for making that statement at all. If the decline in this country has not some special significance, why should it be always quoted and why should the quotation of that decline in prices and in tillage be always accompanied by quite disingenuous explanations? Deputy Lemass actually told us that recurring distress in this country is due to the method we have of using our land. I suggest that everybody knows and that everybody, except the politician, is willing to admit that the decline in prices, stock and tillage in this country is due exactly to the reasons for the decline in prices and in stock in every other country—the conditions which inevitably followed the European War and the waste and extravagance of that war. I dare say some of the Deputies opposite were children in the year 1920. But some of them had come to the use of reason in the year 1920—I pay them that compliment. If any farmer or any business man were asked in 1921: "What is going to be the effect during the next eight or ten years of the European War—all the waste, all the extravagance, the immense debts and the loss of production that occurred during the years 1914 to 1921?"—he could tell you at once.

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

Was there a farmer in Ireland who did not know that the increase in tillage during the years 1914 to 1918 was not an entirely artificial increase brought about by entirely artificial prices, and that the increase was bound to stop the minute these artificial stimuli were taken away? That increase was bound in the circumstances to be followed by a decrease until you had practically reached the point at which the increase started. Everybody knows that. It is like quoting the prices now and the prices in 1924. The question is not whether our prices now are high or low, not whether they compare favourably or otherwise with 1924, but whether they are lower than they should be for the year 1930. That is really the question.

We are told that we have adopted a Free Trade policy. How is it possible to discuss this issue with any profit if loose language like that is used? What is the "Free Trade policy"? We have a Free Trade policy in a country where we have tariffs on, amongst other things, textiles, clothing, boots, woollens, bottles, margarine, furniture, soap and candles. We have tariffed, on the admission of anybody who has examined the matter, almost fifty per cent. of our tariffable imports. And that is called Free Trade! I accept that definition of Free Trade. But if that is Free Trade, then I am not a Tariff Reformer. If that is Free Trade, what does Tariff Reform mean? It must mean wholesale and indiscriminate tariffs. That is what is meant by Deputies opposite when they talk of tariffs. Deputy Davin talked about the Tariff Commission. He reminded us that Deputy Johnson, four years ago, advocated a permanent Tariff Commission, and that now we are setting up that Commission. He told us that if we had had a permanent Tariff Commission during the last four years we would have had less delay, and he suggested that we would probably have more tariffs. That is an understandable point of view. But let us be clear, anyway, as to where we differ. My view is that the more delay there is about tariffs the better. Our point of view is that tariffs are, in the main—with some exceptions—a tax on the consumer in favour of particular industries. Tariffs, in the main, with very few exceptions, mean taking the money out of the pockets of the consumer and giving it to specially protected industries. That may be right in certain circumstances. It may be necessary, in order to encourage industry, that industrialists in this country should get special protection, but if they are to get protection, the interests of the consumer must be safeguarded at least as carefully as the interests of the industrialist who, in his own person, is going to profit by these tariffs.

We make no apologies, good, bad or indifferent, for any delay that may have occurred in the imposition of tariffs. Delay or expedition does not really matter in the case of tariffs. What really matters is that the tariffs, before imposition, should get the most careful examination, so that their reaction on the consumer, on the industry itself, and on the country as a whole, should be fully measured, and so that the tariff, if it is to be imposed, should be the minimum tariff in the circumstances. It is extraordinary that at this hour of the day, with the experience of highly-protected countries like Canada, Australia and the United States of America before us, you should still find leaders of a responsible party advocating wholesale tariffs as something essentially good, something that cannot do harm. What is the position of those high tariff countries to-day? What is the position of the Canadian and Australian farmer? Deputy Lemass mentioned—I am sorry he is not here now—that I went over to London. I did go over to London— quite openly, and I will go over again whenever I require to go. I shall not sneak over to Lord Beaverbrook to give him my views on Irish politics.

You will go whenever you are required.

Mr. Hogan

Whenever I think I ought to go I will go to London, and I will make no apologies to anybody for so doing. When I get to London I will do just as I wish, and accept any invitation I care to accept, and meet any people I care to meet, without any apology or without any explanation. I am telling that to Deputy O'Kelly. I had the advantage of being able to make some first-hand inquiries into the position in tariffed countries, countries where you had indiscriminate tariffs without any examination, where tariffs were imposed on a wholesale scale, without any attempt to measure the necessities of the case, or the consequences that would follow. What is the result? Does anybody suggest at the moment, does the Labour Party suggest, that you have prosperity in very much richer countries like Australia as a result of tariffs, or that you have prosperity in Canada as a result of tariffs? These are highly tariffed countries. Surely anybody who has given the matter any study will realise that even the wealthiest country can be brought to the verge of bankruptcy by tariffs. All sorts of inefficiency and worse even than inefficiency, namely, corruption, can flourish in a country where tariffs can be put on perhaps indiscriminately for political reasons. Surely anybody who has given the smallest thought to the matter must realise that. Is that your ambition for this country? It is not ours.

Take the position of this country. We are an agricultural country—I will not go into this question too deeply as we will debate it again— with a big export surplus of agricultural produce. It is now practically admitted that no tariff can increase the price which the farmer receives for his produce, with negligible exceptions. It is practically admitted that the only effect of tariffs is to increase the price of everything that the farmer has to buy, so far as they have any effect. It has been admitted by the leader of the Opposition that a tariff on bacon would not increase the price. It must be admitted that no tariff on eggs in a country like this, where there is an import of from £30,000 to £70,000 worth, and an export surplus of between four and five millions worth, can increase the price of the eggs the farmer produces. The admitted position here is that a tariff cannot help the farmer by increasing his prices. The biggest Opposition Party, and the Labour Party, advocate, in effect, the abolition of the Tariff Commission. They know perfectly well that the abolition of the Tariff Commission means indiscriminate, ill-considered, extravagant and exorbitant tariffs. They know that these tariffs must mean inevitably an increase in the cost of living, and an increase in the cost of practically everything that the farmer has to buy. The farmer is the man whom we are all concerned about now. We all say that he needs relief. Outside of a lunatic asylum was there ever such a position as this: that at a moment, when agriculture is, in fact, in a depressed condition and is supposed to be in a much worse condition the people most vocal in its interests are advocating a policy which would inevitably lead to this, that everything the farmer has to buy he must pay an extravagant and an exorbitant price for? That is their method of relieving agricultural depression!

Deputy Davin was right when he said that we considered the farmers should put their trust in the Tariff Commission. I ask the farmers to put their trust in the Tariff Commission because the position is, that while no tariff can increase the price of anything they sell, the Tariff Commission stands between them and extravagant prices for everything they have to buy. I give it as my considered opinion to the farmers of this country that their sheet anchor is the Tariff Commission, and that the day the Tariff Commission goes, and that you can have indiscriminate and extravagant tariffs imposed, often for political reasons, that day this country as an agricultural country will have put its foot on a downward path, which will lead inevitably to bankruptcy.

There is one delusion about the Tariff Commission that I would wish, if I could, to explain away. It is this: that it is not the business of the Tariff Commission to decide policy. The business of the Tariff Commission is to examine an application for a tariff, with its reactions, not only on the applicants but on the consumers, and on the country generally. In other words, the business of the Tariff Commission is to get the facts. Our policy is to get the facts first and then to act, if the facts justify us. We can come to our own conclusions. The policy of Deputies opposite is to abolish the Tariff Commission—remember that a body like the Tariff Commission is the only body that can get the information from the trade which is necessary in order to get all the facts of the case —and thereby make it impossible to get all the facts. Their policy is to act first and get the facts afterwards, when it is not possible to alter the position. We will not accept that policy. We have established a permanent Tariff Commission. We make no excuses at all for any delays that may have occurred. Delays are good in matters of this kind; they are in the interests of the farmer. Any delay that will save the farmers money, any delay that will save extravagance, any delay that will make for efficiency is all to the good, and we make no excuse whatever for any delays that were necessitated by exhaustive examination of any applications.

It is only in order to make the inquiry more exhaustive that we have established the Tariff Commission as a whole-time body. As I say, I am in a difficulty in this debate, in view of the fact that no serious attempt has been made to meet the position outlined in the President's statement. I do not want to go into this question of tariffs at any greater length. It is a question that will be debated when Deputy Ryan's motion comes on. I only want to say this, that I am quite satisfied that the agricultural and financial condition of this country is, comparatively speaking, good in spite of the bad season, which, of course, was special to this country. I am well aware that farmers in many parts are feeling acutely the fall in prices, and the result of the general shortage of money.

I believe, and I think it is fairly evident now, that as a result of the special economy of this country, which was the production of live-stock and live-stock products rather than the production of cereals, this country has come through the world depression since 1921 somewhat better than most countries and considerably better than any of the agricultural countries whose main production consists in cereals for sale, and I think, as the President stated, we are entitled to remind the farmers of the position now in view of the advice they got during the last three or four years. I do not hide the fact for a moment that times are bad and may continue to be bad. What I deprecate in those times is the attitude of the party opposite, and the attitude of other parties and other organisations through the country who have no real good-will for the country, the attitude that is directed towards persuading the farmer of this country that his position is particularly bad, and is bad as a result of forces which operate in this country only, and which go back in their origin to the present Government. That is not fair politics in bad times. Public-spirited people in every country in the world realise that their countries are going through times of stress and difficulty, and take it as their duty, and conceive it to be their duty, while not abandoning any of their political rights as oppositions or otherwise, to keep the morale of the country what it should be.

What I complain of in this country is that, with the exception of the Deputies who sit on those benches, and I will say of some of the Deputies in the Labour Party, the attitude of public representatives has been to defeat the country and break the spirit of the country so far as possible, and to endeavour to persuade the country that the times which we are going through are particular to this country and due to circumstances in this country which the Government have caused and could overcome if they wished. That attitude will depress, weaken and dispirit the country and help to break it. I believe there is good solid stuff in this country, good solid farmers in this country. I believe we represent the farmers of this country, and I do not think the loud-mouthed organisations which spring up every day and disappear the next are representative of the farmers of the country. I say this party represents the working farmers of this country. I say I can speak for more farmers in this country than all the Deputies opposite, and I say for those farmers that that propaganda, no matter where it comes from, is not going to succeed. I believe we have maintained the financial position and the economic position of the country during the last five or six years, and I believe we will still maintain the spirit of the country and I have still confidence we will win through, and that when the depression of the country is over the farmers of the country will realise that they have got good service from this Government.

I am sure that the farmers, the politicians and the man in the street down the country will feel everlastingly grateful to the Minister for Agriculture for his homily. He has told them to be of good heart, to stick it out, as he told them a few years ago, and that all would be well. If the Minister thinks that he is going to bully us or persuade us or otherwise alter our policy of telling the people of this country that the policy of sticking it out is no good and that the men who stand for it will have to get out of office, the Minister is making a terrible mistake. We are going to say exactly the same things. We have no apology for them. If the Minister is prepared to answer these things, I wish to goodness he would stand up to them instead of making cheap jeers about lunatic asylums, mental specialists and this calling for co-operation. He cannot have it both ways. If he sends out his orators telling the people that the Fianna Fáil Party stands for turning this country bankrupt, that they did all that in them lay to make the National Loan a failure, and that as a result of their efforts and those of Deputy de Valera in America it is impossible to get foreigners to invest in this country—it comes very badly from these gentlemen to come along to ask for fair play, a fair crack of the whip and more co-operation. By all means let us have more co-operation, but let us have fair play on both sides, let people who go down to Carlow tell the farmers who stand honestly for the present Government, the people who probably unfortunately, will still support the Government such is their credence, the policy they stand for. The policy of the home market, of protection for agriculture, is simply the policy which the protectionists have induced them to swallow. The policy which a political party holds out to them as a respectable background is really a policy of repudiation. If we are going to discuss the real economic effects of tariffs and the question of Protection, let us discuss it with regard to that consideration, but let us not discuss it with one voice down the country and another in the Dáil.

The Minister for Agriculture has given away the show on himself. He started off by talking about "I," and after a while he spoke about "we." I wonder how much the "we" of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party figured in all the pronouncements of the Minister? What was his statement this evening only a wholesale and indiscriminate attack upon the tariff policy. No one, at any rate on this side of the House, has ever stood for indiscriminate tariffs. We have stated over and over again that one of the remedies was a whole-time Tariff Commission. It is only recently that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has come to face the question of the increase in prices, while he himself, like the Minister for Agriculture, has gone out of his way to damn tariffs, because he has said, as the Minister for Agriculture has said this evening, that a policy of tariffs inexorably means a terrible increase in price for farmers and consumers. No tribunal has examined that question, as far as we know, as to whether there was an increase or not in the cost of living as a result of certain tariffs, and while no scientific examination of that question has been made the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Industry and Commerce has no right to try to damn the policy of tariffs by throwing in this red herring of the increase in the cost of living. The Minister for Agriculture, with his natural intellectual dishonesty, started to tell us that over in London he had learned a lot about tariffs, but he took good care not to tell us in what country political corruption had resulted from tariffs. Was it Australia, Canada, or South Africa? Is the Minister for Agriculture, or any of his colleagues, going to tell any of those gentlemen they fêted in Dublin recently that political dishonesty was rampant as a result of the policy they stand for? A month or two before he came to London Mr. Bennett, under whose cloak the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Industry and Commerce were anxious to hide themselves in London, put on thumping tariffs to increase the tariffs against British imports. It was Britain that felt the pinch and got the severest blow from these tariffs. There was no cowardice about Mr. Bennett. He did not say, like our Minister: "A tariff ring is no good. I am going across to see what can be done; I will give away as much as I can if I get a little in return." The Premier of Canada put on a thumping tariff. As well as that, he put on a special tariff duty. There was no talk of increasing the cost of feeding materials or the cost of living in Canada. And the Customs authorities of Canada were empowered by that Premier's law to go down to the ports and examine the stuff that was coming in themselves, and there and then to put on a dumping duty of from 15 to 50 per cent. If they were satisfied that the stuff was coming into the country at prices which would be impossible for the home market in Canada to produce at, all that was necessary was to satisfy themselves, and they had special power then and there on the spot to put on a special dumping duty.

The Minister for Agriculture comes along and tells us that he has discussed these questions—at least that is the inference I gather from his remarks— with the Premiers of Australia, Canada and South Africa, and has come to the conclusion that tariffs are all wrong. If that is so, why do these countries stand for tariffs? Why does Australia refuse to part with the policy of tariffs? Because the policy of tariffs is the only thing that prevents her from being absolutely shipwrecked. The real cause of the trouble in Australia, as an Englishman recently pointed out in the British Press, is that over £25,000,000 of gold have been lifted from her by English investors. That is the reason why Australia is in such a dreadful position. To think that the question of tariffs could be argued dispassionately, or that we could have a proper Tariff Commission while we have Ministers like the two I have mentioned going about the country and repeating time and again that there is something radically wrong with tariffs, that tariffs in themselves have an intrinsic vice, that they are absolutely bound to increase the cost of living, while at the same time they ask the farmers, industrialists and unemployed in this country to wait while this whole-time Tariff Commission goes into the question, is absolute nonsense. We want a Tariff Commission that will get to work. We do not want a Tariff Commission that is going to create as many objections as possible to putting into force the policy that Sinn Féin stands for, and that those who still believe in the Sinn Féin ideal stand for, and will see that it is carried to a conclusion.

The Minister for Agriculture talked about tariffs. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that even if we put a complete tariff ring around the country we could only give employment to 10,000 more people, and then possibly at the risk of losing 10,000 who are employed in Guinness's, in Jacob's, and in Ford's. And these gentlemen stand up here now and pretend that there is something sincere, something honest, and the real remedy and cure for the industrial and economic situation in this country, in this precious Tariff Commission that they are asking us to take seriously. If they are taking it seriously, then why do not they cut out all this talk? The Minister for Agriculture said that this, in fact, was not a free trade country, that the amount of work that has been done already has made it a protectionist country or State. I would recommend the Minister for Agriculture to read over the speech which his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, made over in London when he was telling John Bull what splendid customers of his we were. He told the English people on that occasion that we were buying £20,000,000 worth of manufactured or semi-manufactured articles. He told the British people that we were the highest purchasers of British cement, British motor cars, British bicycles, British malt, British boots and shoes, and British wheat and flour. For all these things we were England's best customers. Is there any reason why the Minister for Industry and Commerce, now that he has failed in London, will not sit down seriously to consider the question of how that 20 or 20½ millions of manufactured or semi-manufactured materials could not be produced in this country? Would it not be much better for him to do that than doing what he has been doing for the past five months?

The Minister for Agriculture is certainly amusing when he gives forth a homily about honesty, fair politics and so on. What was the statement that was read out by the President but a political statement designed from beginning to end to have a certain political effect and to make the best possible show? There are certain statements in it which, from a dispassionate point of view, any honest man cannot agree with, such as the statement that the price of the National Loan is good, that our credit is good in New York, or some other thing, and that that really means that this country is well off and that things are better here than they are. Whether the National Loan is fetching a high price in New York, whether more money is being invested in National Savings Certificates or whether more money is coming home to be invested in the National Loan is no indication, no more than our imports or exports or adverse trade balance are, of whether the country is really prosperous or not in the matter of employment, in the matter of the income to the ordinary worker, in the matter of whether he has more money in his pocket now than he had two, three, five or seven years ago. If the Minister puts beside these so-called criteria the amount of money that is being spent on unemployment benefit, the number of bankruptcies in this country, and if he adds in with them the amount of emigration and the decline in tillage and the production of wealth which has been referred to here, then he can take all the factors together and he can claim that the whole lot of them are lumped together, and we can claim that we are right. In any case that is what counts down the country and that is what is going to count, and if the Minister, with the assistance of the Irish Press, can make a better case than we can make, well and good. The fact is that ordinary people down the country believe that they are worse off. Apart from politics, if that is not so how is it that these supporters of the Government who met the Minister down in Carlow told him of how they stood? If they are better off what was the necessity for the Minister to go down to meet them? I do not want to prolong the question. I simply want to say that we do not believe that this Tariff Commission is a sincere method of dealing with the question.

On the question of grain, which has been so well referred to by Deputy Davin, on a simple proposition that 15 per cent. of grain sold by Irish millers and importers should be Irish grain, it has taken that precious Tariff Commission over twelve months to decide whether or not it is a good thing for the country and whether or not it could be made a feasible proposition. They have not yet given an answer on an urgent matter like that which has been agitating the country not for one or two years, but for five years. It is over five years ago since the Cumann na nGaedheal Party themselves set up a committee to go into this question of increasing tariffs. They brought forward a proposal for an import tax on bacon and a tax even on maize. They believed so much in the policy of home production and in the home market, that they were actually prepared to say that no person could get a share of the agricultural grant in relief of rates who would not till at least 15 per cent. of his land. That happened in the Council of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. The Grain Conference was killed in the same year. The Minister for Agriculture stands here and masquerades as a selective Protectionist. He is simply an inflexible free trader. Now he has his back to the wall, and when he finds that the tide is turning, that the same forces that he put under for the time being in 1923, 1925 and 1927, are again raising their heads, and this time demand that they shall have their remedy and see that he shall go, he stands in front of this Dáil and simply delivers a wholesale attack on the policy of tariffs. He does not want to have the question discussed except by a body of civil servants, who shall find it necessary to take into consideration the views of the Minister, who can dismiss them from their positions in the morning. If they discuss the whole question from the national point of view, from the point of view of how a particular proposition is going to increase our food and wealth production, and help to solve our problems of unemployment and emigration, and above all, try and place our people back upon the land— if the Tariff Commission is going frankly to discuss all these questions and examine them from that point of view, by all means they will have the full support of this party. We will stand for it and support it, but we want to feel that the Tariff Commission is meant to be a really earnest thing, that it is going to attempt sincerely to outline a policy and a programme for the future. If, on the other hand, the Tariff Commission is simply going to continue doing nothing, and if every time a cry is raised in the country for protection, for the same weapon that every civilised country has adopted, Ministers are going to try and damn the whole campaign by the cry of the cost of living or some other redherring, then all progress is impossible by means of that Tariff Commission.

I often noticed that when we were defeated in a by-election we generally found consolation in cheering one another. When the Cumann na nGaedheal Party found the country up in arms owing to their neglect of the economic situation, it found consolation this evening in cheering Casabianca and his defence of Free Trade. The President goes all round the world to find out how we are situated, and what is so-and-so's opinion, and closes his eyes to the facts at his own door. He comes out with a statement that our National Debt is only twenty-three millions and that we are the best-off country in the world, forgetting that we are paying to Great Britain in Land Annuities and Local Loans a sum of five and a half millions which, when capitalised, means a National Debt of one hundred and ten millions, in addition to the borrowings of the Government. We are also told about the decrease in our adverse trade balance. It is a beautiful thing to congratulate this country when it is exporting its capital wealth to the extent of practically a million of money, and exporting its manhood, and to rejoice that we are a little better off than last year. The Minister belongs to that particular set of people who measure things by their own individual wealth. We could have in the Twenty-six Counties a big volume of trade and a better trade balance, and still have only a population of half a million. We could rationalise agriculture, and we would have people like the Minister for Agriculture putting a whole lot of figures before us and telling us that we were turning the corner, that we were prosperous and had the best credit policy in Europe.

Other speakers have given us the facts of the wholesale emigration from Ireland. One fact the Ministry cannot get over, or any apologist for the Ministry, is that we are the only country in the world at present that is losing its population in tens of thousands yearly. We are told that we are prosperous, that we are going ahead, that we are better off than any other country, and that we are credit worthy. I would far sooner be like France and other countries, and have an industrial population and a high standard of living than be credit worthy in the eyes of international financiers, and have decaying industries, a constantly decreasing population, and have this a dumping ground for English manufacturers. It is no wonder that the Minister for Agriculture and the other Free State delegates got special entertainment in London. It is no wonder the English members lavished praise on them. No matter what tariff walls Australia or Canada put up, even while the Imperial Conference was sitting, here were the Irish delegates who would keep the ports open for the dumping of English manufactures. No wonder special tributes were paid to them. Daniel O'Connell said whenever the "Times" praised him he began to examine his conscience.

We heard a lot from the Minister for Agriculture about tariffs and the economic ruin that they caused. The over-tariffed countries were going into bankruptcy. He had been in intimate touch with people from Australia and they told him this, that and the other. I have here the views of an Australian on the question of tariffs. He is not a mere writer. He is Mr. W.M. Hughes, a leader of the Opposition in the Australian Federal Parliament. When Sir Otto Niemeyer went out to Australia a few months ago to persuade them to drop the tariff walls and concentrate on primary production he was met with such a national opposition that his mission was a failure. Mr. Hughes, speaking on that matter, says:—

"We are to be ‘hewers of wood and drawers of water'! We are to produce the raw materials for Britain's industry—and in order that Britain may be able to compete in the markets of the world, we must produce them cheaply—the cheaper the better. And this means, as Sir Otto very kindly pointed out to the heads of our Governments, that we must ‘reduce our standards of living' and work harder, so that we may produce more raw materials at lower prices and yet contrive to exist."

Later on Mr. Hughes says:—

"Sir Otto says that the only way to ensure this is to concentrate on primary production and abandon our attempts to build up our industries in order to make Australia as far as possible a self-contained nation. My answer is that under his policy barely one-half of the present population could find employment, even if their standard of living were reduced to the level of, say, Britain. Growth of population would be impossible. In 1911 the population of Australia was 4,550,000; in 1928 it had increased to 6,360,000—a gain of 39 per cent. How have these 1,775,000 people been absorbed? Certainly not in the primary industries. In 1911, 472,000 persons were engaged in the pastoral, dairying and farming industries; in 1928 the number had fallen to 423,000! That is to say, that, while the population had increased by 39 per cent., the number of persons engaged in primary industries had decreased by 10½ per cent.! Yet this lesser number of persons produced 55,000,000 more bushels of wheat, 14,000,000 more gallons of wine, 200,000,000 lbs. more wool, 77,000,000 lbs. more butter, and 312,000 tons more sugar—and they cultivated 9,000,000 acres more land —an increase of 75 per cent. over the acreage in 1911. And, as we have seen the trouble in the world to-day arises through over-production, it is evident that it is not possible to find employment for a much greater proportion of our population in the primary industries.... The manufacturing industries alone have made it possible for the population of Australia to increase by nearly 2½ millions in the last twenty-five years. Owing to the employment they provide and the wealth they create, the consumption powers of the home market have so increased that, out of the total wealth production in 1928 of £447,000,000, £350,000,000 were consumed in Australia, leaving only £97,000,000 for the depressed markets of the outside world. The welfare and progress of Australia are dependent upon the maintenance of a policy of encouragement of Australian industries."

That is the thing that happened in Australia and that meant an increase of two-and-a-half million in population. And this thing that has increased its home market by nearly three times the amount of the external market is described by the Minister for Agriculture as corruption, leading to everything that is base in political life. Here we have facts and figures in the statement of a responsible leader of the Opposition in Australia disproving what our Minister says. Finally, Mr. Hughes says:—

"The true test of any policy is its effect upon the great masses of the people—governments exist for the benefit of the governed. A healthy, well-nourished, well-clad, well-housed people is a nation's greatest asset. That policy which ensures the people abundant food, good clothes, and decent houses to live in, opportunities for leisure, for recreation, for culture, for a fair share of the luxuries—so called—of modern life; which encourages the right kind of people by creating conditions favourable to their welfare, is the best policy. The true test of a nation's greatness and prosperity is its manhood. Tried by this standard, Australia's policy will bear very favourable comparison with that of other countries."

They do not set about a thing as the Minister in the Irish Free State does by throwing a sop of a sum of £300,000 to meet the economic situation. They do not tackle it in the way the Ministry here are tackling it, bound down to the vested interests in this country, which want to keep this country as a cabbage garden for England, as a country for the production of the primary needs of the centre of the Empire. They do not bow down to that element in Australia as the Free State Minister does here.

The Minister for Agriculture told us that 50 per cent. of the tariffable imports are tariffed, but he did not tell us how they were tariffed or were they effectively tariffed. He did not tell us that if this 50 per cent was tariffed it was 50 per cent. on the value of the imports. He did not give figures about the financial value of these imports. He did not deal with the huge imports of feeding stuffs brought in here which we could produce and reserve for the home market. The President dealt with the fact that the agricultural community were comparatively well-off, were it not for the bad season this year. Anyone living in the country amongst the farming community knows that in living memory there never were so many derelict farms as there are to-day. You have only to go outside the City of Dublin, into North County Dublin to see the huge number of derelict farms which are in the hands of the banks and for which purchasers cannot be found. To meet that situation the Government set up the Agricultural Credit Corporation. But the Agricultural Credit Corporation might as well not have been set up. I vouch for this: That if any Deputy could get permission to go into the Registrar's Office in the capital of any county he would find that on the folios of 90 per cent. of the holdings there were mortgages and debts unable to be met and which were contracted in the war years. The Agricultural Credit Corporation has not met that situation; in nine cases out of ten they could not meet the situation. Its terms were too conservative and the machinery which has been set up has been a complete failure. There is no use calling a man lazy, and slovenly, and unworthy to get on because he cannot meet his liabilities. The Minister for Agriculture said that anyone during the war could see that tillage was only artificial and that the prices were only artificial. Not 5 per cent. of the business community in the world saw that the war prices were artificial, and practically not one of the farming community saw that prices were artificial. If they did, why was it that in 1919 and in the beginning of 1920 they bought store cattle at war prices and had to sell them later at lesser prices? If they had that foreknowledge the Minister speaks of would that big crash that came in agricultural prices in 1920 and 1921 have occurred? The Minister knows very well nobody anticipated that. Ten years after there is no use in saying everyone foresaw it. No one foresaw it, only the men who made it—the financiers. We are told about this registration of the unemployed and about unemployment insurance. Any change in the registration of unemployed or in the number of insured persons is due to the stricter enforcement of the Unemployment Acts by the servants of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. And even the figures given by the President show no radical change whatever. Anyone cognisant of the conditions of the country knows that five out of every six men in the rural areas have nothing to do with unemployment registration. Farmhands do not go to the unemployment registry. Then talking about the conditions in England, which have been brought up here, a man on the dole in England with 25s. a week is much better off than a farm-hand trying to bring up a family on the same amount of money in rural Ireland.

Owing to economic conditions, the wages in the agricultural industry are a scandal, and I do not know how men exist in that industry. We are, however, told that we are comparatively well off. A state of things in regard to unemployment exists in rural Ireland which neither we nor those who are older than we are have ever seen before. There is nothing so amusing in a debate like this as the fulsome gratitude displayed over a sop thrown out to relieve the economic situation. In this country we have everything that we want in the way of food, in the way of clothes, in the way of housing, and we have a population ready and willing to produce the necessaries which the country requires, but owing to some economic process, owing to the neglect of the Government, which we are informed is supreme over all things in this State, we are told that such things cannot be done. A small sum is, however, thrown out as a sop, and we are told that it must not be regarded as a precedent, and that things must go on without it in the future. What is the Government for? Is this assembly merely a debating society? Certain people make economic rules outside the authority of this House, and we are simply a police force to carry them out. What is the use of Parliament at all if such a state of things is to be permitted? That is the state of things referred to repeatedly by the Vice-President here and by various Ministers, and we are told that there are forces outside which are beyond our control, that a certain situation exists, and that we must simply sit and smile, that we are merely a police force, a mere debating society. What is the use of talking about the will of the people and the supremacy of the people?

We have heard a lot during the debate about this State being credit-worthy in the world. We may be credit-worthy externally, but it is time that we became credit-worthy internally. It is time that the derelict farms had tillage on them, had sheep and cattle on them, and had people working on them. It is time that we turned our eyes inwards and made the State credit-worthy internally. After the War the French nation was shouted at by the world, and was told that the franc was only worth two-pence. France minded her internal credit, and to-day she has not only no unemployment, but is importing emigrants to work for her. I would sooner not be credit-worthy. I would sooner have a bad name at Geneva, with the Federal Reserve Board and with the Bank of England, and have a population at home, hard-working and happy, than be in the position we are in to-day. When one talks about this subject in this House, one is treated as a kind of idiot, as a person talking about something outside the scope of this assembly. It is far more practical to talk about it than to be parading at parties in London and Geneva. Talking about it and realising what it means will get us further than big displays of tall hats. As I said at the beginning, the whole country has presented the pistol of protection at the head of Cumann na nGaedheal, yet the Minister, like Casabianca on the burning deck, gets up and states that he is whole-hoggedly for Free Trade, and, like a defeated candidate, finds consolation in the cheers of his party. These cheers are the inevitable end of Free Trade in this country.

The President, in his address to this House and to the country at large, struck a note that will hasten the people to a realisation of the facts of the situation. Unlike the speeches of Fianna Fáil Deputies and other people who represent nobody, the President did not give a false representation of the state of the country. I have been through the country, north, south, east and west, and I know the conditions under which the crops were gathered this year. Owing to the inclemency of the weather it was difficult to harvest them, but nevertheless the small farmers, as usual, succeeded in getting the crops into the haggard and having them protected. The farmers are not so down and out as Deputies on the other side would have us believe. The country is quite well off. We are progressing, and all that the country requires is to be let alone, and not to have it always driven down the throats of the people that they are in slavery and poverty, and that soon all our people will be on the dole. As is usual at this period of the year, unemployment is fairly rife in some urban and rural districts, but the President has proposed to produce a certain amount of money to relieve the conditions of the labourers and small farmers, and to help them to tide over the winter months. I hope that the proposal will have good results for the country in general. I do not desire to speak very much about tariffs, but I would like to know why Deputy Lemass is so anxious for a tariff on flour, for instance, if it can be got, say, at ten, seven, and even five shillings a bag. What is the object of increasing the price of flour to the farmers? Deputy Lemass knows pretty well that it is not possible to grow wheat to advantage in this country. If he does not know it, he ought to know it. That, at least, has been my experience, and that of every other farmer who knows his business. It is not possible to raise wheat in this country and to mature it, because we have not a suitable climate.

Will the Deputy say when it became impossible to grow wheat here, in view of the fact that sixty years ago we had 80,000 acres of wheat?

The conditions were different. The climatic conditions must have been different, because this season I saw one of the most ideal farms in the country, in which there were in one field oats, barley, wheat, beet, turnips, mangolds and potatoes. The farmer whose property it was is one of the most progressive in County Westmeath. He pointed out an acre of wheat to me and said: "Is it not the greatest pity in the world that we could not get about fourteen days more heat and sun to ripen that wheat?" The result of that was that the grain shrunk. It was not a product that could be called profitable for him. It was not a product that could be used as food for human beings though it was quite all right for the feeding of stock. I would like to know why there is this anxiety on the Fianna Fáil Benches for these tariffs. If corn or wheat is being imported at 5/- a sack, why should there be a tariff of another 5/- imposed on it?

I would prefer that Deputies on the other side would explain to the country what tariffs mean. "Tariffs" may be a fine word to use in connection with a superiority complex, but if we reduce the matter to an inferiority complex, and tell the people that their sack of flour is going to cost them 10/- plus a tax of 5/-, they will quite understand the position. I am quite certain that they will not accept that policy. The farmers of Carlow-Kilkenny have been referred to and Deputy Lemass is anxious to avail of every opportunity for political purposes. There is not a post or pillar which he is not prepared to use for political purposes. I would like to know exactly is Deputy Lemass sincere about the tariff question and to know why he has not the guts to impose a tariff on Indian meal imported into this country instead of upon oats and corn?

Because it is not the best method of dealing with the situation.

The Deputy has been dealing with an article which we import only to the value of £30,000. Why not deal with an article which is imported to the extent of £4,000,000— Indian meal or maize? The Deputy will not face the country on that issue. He has not the pluck to do it. That is the position. If he tells the people of the country that he is going to impose a tariff of five or six shillings on a sack of Indian meal, he will get his answer.

Why should I tell them that when I am not going to do it?

Because you have not the courage to do it.

A Deputy

He is not so foolish as you are, seemingly.

I am not so foolish either. I look things in the face. We now hear it proposed that a tariff should be imposed on bacon.

We shall discuss that to-morrow.

Since they were all discussing it, I thought I was entitled to have a finger in the pie. The people of this country have contributed fairly liberally towards the support of the industries that have been started here. All the other counties contributed reasonably well towards the industries in Carlow-Kilkenny. The people there have been given sugar on one side and they want jam on the other. How are the farmers to succeed in getting cheap wheat, flour and Indian meal if all these commodities are tariffed? Dealing with other aspects of the matter, will it improve our condition if we impose tariffs on our bacon or if we make the cost of living higher for the working men of the country? Will it improve the conditions of farming to increase the cost of foreign bacon?

There is another matter which Deputies on the opposite side have dealt with. They have alleged that this country is a cabbage garden for England. The English people or any other people are not asking us to keep this country as a cabbage garden for them unless it suits us. We are using the English market for our own purposes and for our own advantage. It is not because it suits the interests of the people on the other side. We send out agricultural produce to them because it suits us to do so, and they take it because it suits them to do so. Similarly, we purchase from them certain goods because it suits us to do so, and they send us those goods because it suits them to do so. I hope that when these matters are discussed they will be discussed in the light of reality, and that the real issues will not be side-tracked. I hope that Deputies will deal with matters which involve millions of pounds, and not forget them when dealing with matters which only involve ten or twenty thousand pounds. What we have got to do in this country is to get the people to recognise that we produce first class articles at home, and to make them understand that it would be better that they should buy them than foreign goods. We certainly produce first class beef, pork, clothing, boots and shoes. We have first class products in everything we need practically for our own personal requirements.

Do not forget butter.

Quite so. Our butter is quite as good as any in the world. It would be to the interests of the country if the people purchased goods manufactured in this country and ceased to purchase goods manufactured outside. On the other hand, it is not reasonable or fair that the Party in opposition to the Government—a Government which has done its best, and is doing its best, and which has succeeded in bringing this country to the state of perfection which it is in to-day—should ask that Government to coerce the people to purchase everything they require in accordance with the Government's own ordinances. It is a very commendable thing to ask them to purchase the things that belong to the country, but the people certainly do not want the Russian system of issuing tickets, and saying that they must buy this or that article at the behest of the Government.

I hope that when Deputies come to deal with tariffs they will bear in mind that there are a number of workmen and labourers in the towns and cities who cannot afford to pay the high prices for certain classes of meat and bacon that they are expected to pay, having regard to the small wages they earn. They cannot be expected to pay the high prices for the loaf and the flour that a tariff would impose on them. These facts must be taken into consideration just as much as the other interests that are taken into consideration. It is quite one thing to go out and to shout at every country chapel and cross-roads, and tell the people that they must have increased prices for their butter, bacon and eggs, but it is another thing to go into the towns and cities and tell the workers and labourers there that they must pay higher prices for their food, and that it is good national policy. That is not a policy that can be called an economic policy, or one that is in the interests of the general community. All parties must be taken into consideration, and when all things are taken into consideration, and when the policy of the Government comes to be reviewed at a later date, it will stand the test of time. You will find then that Deputies on the back benches of the Government Party are with the Government in the determination to see that all the people of the country will get a fair deal in all transactions.

I must say, in listening to the statement made by the President this evening, that at first blush I was inclined to feel very proud of the fact that some of the figures quoted as to the state of the country showed that we are very prosperous, but then I had to consult with myself and seek for an explanation as to the great difference between my reading of the state of the country, gauged from close personal touch with the situation, and the situation as revealed by the statistics quoted by the President. I had to ask myself what was the explanation for the discrepancy. Similarly, with regard to the other speakers, the Minister for Agriculture and members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, who, without exception, sounded a note of prosperity. Their figures were so conclusive that one could not help feeling that the statement made was substantially well-founded. I have come to the conclusion, however, that I and other Deputies on this side, while representing the situation in the country as it actually exists, are not at all in touch with that element that is represented by the price of stocks, the stock markets and the various other indications of wealth and prosperity indicated by the price of our stocks in other countries. There is, however, underneath all that a question that must be faced by Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies and by the Government: that is, that what is of greatest importance to the country is not the position of those who possess wealth in abundance in the country, but rather what is the position of the majority of the people, the farmers and the workers in the country. There is no man coming from any part of the country, if he will speak his mind honestly and state the impressions that he has gathered in his own district, whether he be a townsman or a countryman, but must say that the conditions to-day are distinctly worse than they have ever been at any period over a number of years back.

It may be good policy to say to the world: "Here are the figures, this nation is financially sound, it has a higher standard than most other countries." That may be good policy, but if Cumann na nGaedheal think it is good policy—and they evidently do, because they deprecate our attitude here when we say the opposite—they should go down the country and tell the farmers and people there that they are really prosperous. We at least realise this fact that the people of the country have regard for truth. They want to hear the truth, and we will continue to speak the truth, even if our doing so will hurt many people in this House.

The only contribution the Government are prepared to make towards the relief of the present depression in the country is a grant of £300,000 for unemployment. Is it not rather a denunciation of the whole attitude taken up by the Government over a number of years back that one wet season should bring about such a state of affairs amongst the farmers and workers generally in the country—that it is necessary for the Government to make a contribution by way of immediate relief towards the conditions arising from that fact? If there were any measure of real prosperity behind the main industry of the country surely one wet year of itself would not be sufficient justification for the Government of this State to introduce a grant of £300,000 in order to relieve the people faced with starvation during the next six months. Do the Government suggest that a grant of £300,000 is going in any way to materially affect or improve the condition of the people in the country? Is it not merely a temporary measure to relieve the dire distress that is always at the doorstep of so many people in this country? Neither in the statement made by the President, nor in the speeches of Deputies on the Cumann na nGaedheal Benches, has any serious attempt been outlined on the part of the Government to remedy the present situation. Things are to remain as they are. This country is to continue in production whether it pays to produce or not, and is to continue on the same lines as heretofore. Those in this country who have money to invest are fortunate in being able to see their investments rise and their stocks and shares look sound. If any business concern was in a similar condition it would show strong dividends, and from the point of view of the investors and those concerned, things would be well. But the farmer is made to produce in this country regardless of whether or not he is getting an economic return for his work. The farmers and the workers in this country are not getting an economic return, and it is because the farmer continues in production and maintains himself and his family under a standard that is far below what ordinary decency would require, that the stocks that reference is made to show appreciation and the country seems itself to be in a sound financial condition. If the owners of any industrial undertaking in this country could compel their workers to accept reduced wages and a very low standard of living, then clearly that industrial undertaking could show at the end of each year a substantial increase in its dividend, the concern itself would be a prosperous one, and the value of its stocks would be appreciated. These are the conditions under which, according to the spokesmen of the Government, our people must continue to produce. There is no alternative offered to our farmers except to continue along the old road of the last eight years.

Despite what the President and members on the other side of the House have stated the conditions under which farmers are obliged to carry on at present are becoming intolerable. It has been asserted that the only hope for this country is to continue to import cheap feeding stuffs in order that the farmers of this country may be able to produce cheaply the things that are of value in this country, such as butter, bacon and eggs, etc. What is the commonsense behind producing cheaply on cheap feeding stuffs when it is realised that it is quite immaterial to the producer what the cost of the raw material is? Immediately the cost of the raw material, such, for instance, as feeding stuffs, shows any drop in price there is an immediate reduction in the price of the finished product, whether it be butter, bacon or eggs. If the farmers of this country were assured, say, of a drop of 10 per cent. in the price of feeding stuffs next year as compared with their prices this year and that at the same time they were guaranteed a continuation of this year's price for their finished products for the coming year, clearly they would stand to gain ten per cent. on the result, but what invariably happens is that immediately there is a reduction in the cost of feeding stuffs coming into this country the market in which they sell their products shows at least a similar reduction in the prices paid for them. Consequently, there is no improvement.

The policy outlined by the Government, and so strongly emphasised as essential for the very existence of the farmers, shows no change whatever and gives no hope to the farmer that conditions will at any time under present conditions improve for him. I had hoped that the Government would have outlined a scheme in a general way which would, at least, have shown some departure and given some hope to those engaged in the main industry of the country. I thought they might have extended the powers of the Credit Corporation to deal with the exigencies of the situation. I thought they might have put forward some considered scheme, as one would expect from a Government, to show that by better organisation and a more scientific effort in the way of production, the farmers might improve their position. They might have outlined a scheme for the better marketing of the farmer's produce in the matter of transport and in other ways. A scheme on these lines would show that the Government were thinking seriously of making an improvement in some permanent way in the existing conditions, but no scheme whatever has been propounded.

There is no suggestion whatever in the statement of the President, and speeches made later on, that would indicate that the Government had given one moment's consideration to a practical solution. There is nothing only a continuation of the blatant statement that has been repeated for the last eight years by the Cumann na nGaedheal Party that we have turned the corner, and that there is a wave of prosperity carrying this country along, that in the eyes of the outside world we stand high, and that that is an important factor for us. I thought, as I say, that a message of hope might have been sounded in the Dáil to-night, that the anxious people all over the country would, perhaps, read to-morrow a message with a glimmer of hope of some improvement. Not one word of a message of hope has been sent around the country. For the substantial portion of the people that have been brought to the verge of bankruptcy, and who are faced with hunger, the Government have, out of the bounty of those wallowing in wealth from the appreciation of stocks and investments in the country, decided that £300,000 is to be spent to save the one and a half millions who are on the verge of hunger from dying of want in the next six months. That is the gift of the great and prosperous Free State to the farmers, who are the mainstay of the country, and they have to look upon that as the policy of the Government towards improving the condition of the people generally.

During the past eight years the Party managers of Cumann na nGaedheal have often earned the admiration, and no doubt the congratulation, of their own Party leaders as a result of the manner in which they were always able to stage some stunt to take the Party out of their difficulties, but I am afraid the guiding genius behind these stunts must have disappeared, because the stunt statement which the President flung at the House this evening is, to say the least of it, a very poor and crude attempt to stem the tide of dissatisfaction rapidly rising within the ranks of his own Party. It is, no doubt, hoped that that statement will act as a face-saver for those of his Party who have already committed themselves to our policy of protection when the motion in the name of Deputy Ryan is brought forward here to-morrow. That is obvious, but I do not believe that it will serve the purpose which the President and his Party have in view of stemming the inevitable tide which is rapidly overtaking the whole party, the tide which will sweep them from office and power in this country. As several Deputies have pointed out, it is very unfair to present a statement like that, involving figures on various items, and expect that they can be fully dealt with by way of investigation from this side of the House.

The President talks of our credit in the world's markets. Of what purpose is it to tell this House, if, as he told us at the outset, the statement was meant to reassure the people of the country, if a crisis as we have stated, and which people have demonstrated, does really exist—of what purpose is it to tell the starving people that our credit is high in the world's markets? We are told that there has been a reduction of 50 per cent. in the number of registered unemployed, and that there is a 58 per cent. reduction in the number of people drawing the unemployment benefit. Is it not obvious to anyone who is cognisant of the circumstances that these reductions are due on the one hand to the fact that there is a reduction of 50 per cent. in the unemployed owing to their benefit having ceased. They have been unable to find other sources of employment, and consequently cannot re-register? Then the reduction of 58 per cent. in the number of people drawing the unemployment benefit follows automatically from the same cause.

The President proceeds to tell us that taking all the circumstances into consideration we are justified in drawing comfort from our present circumstances. He takes us around the world, and he discovers that there are only eight countries, including Russia, and then he adds the Free State to these eight, in a comparative state of prosperity. Was there ever a more absurd and ridiculous statement put before a starving people, and that is what the majority of the people of this country are at the moment? He was followed at a later stage by Deputy Connolly, who stated that he believed the President, in his statement, had faced all the facts, and that the facts are as the President states. Deputy Connolly tells us that the country is quite well-off, and that all we need do is to leave it alone. I was wondering, when listening to him, was that statement due to the fact that on his entrance here this evening he discovered a new carpet in the hall and a monkey-house built about the Chamber, the only difference being that the spectators are up there and the animals down here. The country is well-off, and all that is necessary to do is to leave it alone, he tells us. Then he proceeds to say that we should talk in millions and not bother about thousands or tens of thousands. Let us think and talk only in millions.

The President wants to impress upon us that some mysterious economic experts in Geneva envy our economic position, and after reviewing the whole situation and lauding our present position as happy and prosperous, he concludes by telling us that he will be prepared to introduce a Supplementary Relief Estimate for £300,000. There is no denying the fact that there are at the very least 100,000 people unemployed in this country. That is to say, there are 100,000 people who would be prepared to work if they could secure it. Consequently, we find now that the President is prepared to give these people, in order to tide them over the winter season, the munificent sum of £3 per head.

No doubt we can find thousands of pounds for banquets both in Dublin and in London. Our foreign visitors must be entertained. Lavish and eloquent speeches must be made when there is a sufficient quantity of champagne drunk; and we have talk of the glowing condition in which this country is. There is no scarcity of money for those functions, but there is only £3 per head for the common people to tide them over the winter season.

"Ill fares the land to hastening ills a prey,

Where wealth accumulates and men decay."

This is fast becoming a country wherein you have a small section, as the last speaker has said, with large bank accounts rapidly increasing and the majority of the people on the verge of poverty. The President has clapped himself on the back over what is nothing more or less, to my mind, than acting on instructions from financiers in this country, or outside it perhaps, when he is prepared to reduce the unemployment subscription both from the employer and the employee as an encouragement, he says, to our industrialists. Seeing that the Unemployment Fund is, as the President states, in a solvent state, would it not be more honest on the part of the Government, and at least show some indication of their appreciation of the great problem of unemployment, if they were prepared to arrange for an increase in the unemployment benefit instead of again giving a sop to those who do not require it? What benefit would the very meagre sum which the reduction means to him be to the worker? I submit that the workers would be quite prepared to bear their present burdens if the reduction were transferred to the Unemployment Fund and so increase the benefits to those out of employment.

The President tells the farmers that they have not a thorough appreciation of the circumstances which have led to their present difficulties, and he tells them it must be borne in mind that these difficulties are only temporary. The farmers, according to the President, must sit down and examine all the factors which have led to their present condition before they are competent to recommend any remedy. Will Deputy Gorey and the other members of the Government Party, who have already committed themselves to the policy of protection for home industries, follow the President along those lines to-morrow? Will they admit that the President is right in saying that the farmers have no thorough knowledge and that they are not competent to appreciate the factors which have led to the present economic difficulty? It will be interesting to see what they will do and say on this matter. Meantime, the only remedy that the President has to offer to the farmers of Ireland, whose farms are becoming derelict and whose sons and daughters are flying from this country as from the plague, is that they must sit down and examine the factors as he and his experts have done before they can have a proper appreciation of their present position.

Five million pounds of the people's money is annually going out of this country. The people are not advised by the President to examine why that money is going out or whether they are justified in sending it. No serious crisis exists requiring a heroic remedy, he tells us. Well, those of us who have been through the country know quite well the conditions of the people, who have always been true, in the South and West of this country, and we know the conditions of the people here in the city. I refer to the mass of the people. We are not so cognisant of the conditions, which are, I am sure, very comfortable so far as concerns the majority of the members of the Government and their supporters throughout the country. We are not so concerned about the conditions of that set of people. I am inclined to believe that the President is confining his observations to that narrow circle when he talks about the happy conditions of the people in comparison with conditions in other countries. It is an absolute shame, in view of the serious crisis in which we find this country at the moment, to hear such talk. It is nothing short of a shame, a disgrace, and an insult to our intelligence and honesty as representatives of the people to have to sit here and listen to such lying propaganda being sent out to delude and deceive those who are still held by some threads or other to the tails of this Government Party.

Several speakers in this debate have pointed out that there are ways and means at the disposal of the Government if they only had the will to face up to the present situation. We are told year after year, year in and year out, how many times we have turned the corner and how high our credit stands in the Stock Exchange market, but everywhere we go we hear nothing but tales of misery and poverty which would almost wring tears from a stone. Let the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, if he is prepared to do so, come around with me through his constituency, and I will prove to him whether we have turned the corner or not. I will prove to him that there has been steady and growing unemployment in his own constituency during the past twelve months, and there is scarcely a constituency in Ireland in which the same tale cannot be told, and proof produced, of thousands of people herded together in houses not fit for human beings to live in. We find families of nine and ten in one room, and in many cases these people are being evicted because they are not able to pay the extortionate rents to the landlords of these slum dwellings. Of course, the Minister for Justice tells us that the Town Tenants Bill must get long and serious consideration. The landlords must go on reaping their profits, and this Government will give them to the last hour.

At least 200,000 people have been lost to this country since the Government took up office. We were told on another occasion by the President that most of them went to America to see their friends. There has been a further barrier put up against emigration. No one will be allowed to enter the United States who has not at least £100 in his or her pocket. The last hope of the starving people of this country is taken from them. I certainly would welcome any attempt to stop emigration, but, as we know it to be the only alternative between those people and the workhouse, it is deplorable to think that they are now deprived even of that way out. I hope that as a result of the discussion here this evening the President and his Cabinet will face the actual situation. We understand that he and his Cabinet were busily engaged in allaying the mutinous section and patching up serious differences of opinion in order to present a united front. I sincerely hope that they have not succeeded in their attempt to deceive again their own followers and particularly those of their Party who have at last wakened up to a realisation of the serious plight in which people are at the moment. I hope when the motion comes up for discussion tomorrow—the motion which this is a deliberate attempt on the part of the President to defeat—that he will be disappointed and that he will find some members of his Party going into the lobby for once really representing their constituents and acting as honest representatives of the people.

As one of the representatives of the most northerly constituency in Ireland, I feel I would not be doing my duty if I allowed to go unchallenged the statement made here to-night by President Cosgrave in which he alleges that the people of the country are in a prosperous condition. It is rather unfortunate that Deputies were not supplied with copies of this statement which was prepared for the President by some of the Departments. Deputies should have had copies of the statement before it was read by the President. In the course of it the President quoted certain figures and certain alleged facts. I believe the President is indebted to the Government Departments for his figures but, on the other hand, I believe that he is indebted to his imagination for his facts. Right throughout his statement runs a note of optimism. He endeavours to tell the people of the country, and make Deputies here believe, that everything is well and that the people in the urban and rural areas are in a prosperous position. He says the position in the country is good. We read recently in the Press where members of the Executive Council were in attendance at certain functions in Geneva and were also at the Imperial Conference. I am inclined to think that the President to-day viewed the economic position of the Free State from the point of persons in evening dress, well fed and well groomed, either at Geneva or at the Imperial Conference, rather than from the point of the man in the street in our towns and cities or the man in our rural areas.

Can it be alleged by any Deputy on the Government Benches that the position of the small farmer is good? The President says there is no need for alarmist statements. I retort that there is no use in the President or members of his Party burying their heads, ostrich like, in the sands and endeavouring to get away from the true economic position which, unfortunately, prevails. The President says that our position is good. I wonder when he used the word "our" was he using it in a personal sense or from the viewpoint of the unemployed? Again, he says that we are justified in drawing comfort from our position. Is the President justified in drawing comfort from the position obtaining in part of this country? Is he justified in drawing comfort from the fact that partition still reigns, and up to the present time the Government have made no serious endeavour to bring about a united Ireland? If the President and his Party are satisfied with that, we may tell them, candidly and straightforwardly, and the people in the country can do so too, that we and they are not satisfied with it. Again he says: "Our social services compare favourably with the social services in other countries." Surely the President and his Party do not really believe that statement. I believe that statement was made purely as political camouflage and political propaganda. Surely no member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party believes that our social services, say, in regard to unemployment insurance, are as good as those obtaining in England, Scotland, Wales or the Six Counties.

Does any member of the Government Party maintain that the unemployed man in the Saorstát, who is legitimately looking for work and is unable to find it, is in a better position as far as benefits are concerned than are the unemployed in those other places? Is it seriously contended that the old age pensioner in the Saorstát is in as good a position as pensioners in the Six Counties, Wales, Scotland and England? Is it seriously contended that the position of widows and orphans here is as good as the position of widows and orphans in those other countries? To-day, in regard to this matter of widows' and orphans' pensions, a question of mine appeared on the Order Paper, and in reply, the Minister for Finance said that the details of the cost of the scheme had not yet been ascertained. In the old days it used to be charged against the British Government that when they wanted to delay a question they set up a Commission. As far as the present Government are concerned, they adopt another method of delaying a matter. My own opinion is that they have no intention of putting a scheme of widows' and orphans' pensions into operation until such time as they are compelled to do so by the people, and I hope that that will be in the very near future.

How can the President contend that, as far as our social services are concerned, they are as good as any obtaining in any other country? For instance, let us take the constituency I represent, which is a Border constituency. A widow with four children residing in County Derry or County Tyrone or County Fermanagh is entitled to a pension of 10s. a week for herself, 5s. per week for the eldest child, and 3s. for each of the younger children. That means that a widow in any of these counties with four children would be entitled to 24s. weekly, whereas a widow with children in the Free State would be entitled to nothing. How therefore could any Cumann na nGaedheal Deputy maintain that the social services in the Saorstát are as good as those in other countries? I would have very much liked to have seen some of the Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies having the courage to get up to contradict the President's statement. They know as well as I do that a large number of the statements that were made were inaccurate. Therefore I hold that it was their duty to get up and contradict those statements.

Coming to unemployment, the President stated that he intends to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for Unemployment to-morrow, to provide £300,000 with which to give work to the unemployed. But it was only when the Labour Party forced him, by putting a motion on the Order Paper, that the President gave in. How far is £300,000 going to go towards the relief of unemployment? I believe that amount is not going to go very far. The President told us that the revenue position is good. I hold it is his duty, and the duty of Deputies on the Government Benches, to compel the President to increase the amount he proposes to devote to the relief of unemployment. If the President is voicing the views of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party then they are satisfied with the position obtaining in the country, meaning that they are satisfied with the position of the small farmers, the fishermen and the unemployed. But we can tell him that we are not satisfied, that Labour is not satisfied, and we think that in the long run the Government will be compelled to improve the social services and give more help to the unemployed, or else make way for a Government which will do so.

On coming to this House to-day after five months' holiday we expected that the Government would be prepared with some programme in view of the present condition of the country in general, and of the farming community in particular. When I came here this morning I was seriously concerned with the state of the country, but, as soon as I got inside the door I felt that I had turned the corner. I found myself walking on a fine new carpet which shows the great prosperity of this country. It was only when I came in that I realised that the Government were fully alive to the serious position of affairs outside. When the condition of affairs here became very serious for the British Government in 1921 they erected bird-cages over the lorries. I see the same condition of affairs existing here now. That is the only visible indication that the Government are on their last legs and are preparing to retire safely and gracefully. There is a bird-cage around this House now. After hearing the President's statement that the farmers were comparatively well off, I was wondering if he had visited any farms during the holidays or whether he is in any way in touch with farmers. If the President looked at the prices that are given in the daily Press for farm produce he would not have made the statement he made to-day. When we see Ministers coming here and providing £300,000 for the dole for the unemployed, one wonders whether the Government is fit to govern even a tribe of African niggers. I do not believe they are.

Do not be abusing your relations.

You got the monkey house put in the condition it is. We have the Minister for Local Government refusing to sanction the use of Irish materials for house building because they cost a few pounds more than other materials, thus sending money that should be spent here across the water and at the same time giving the dole to the unemployed. We have the same Minister creating an artificially bloated aristocracy here by forcing those who represent the ratepayers to pay large salaries to officials. At any rate, the Minister should have full knowledge of the conditions in the country and of the position of the ratepayers. In my constituency we find salaries being artificially forced up by the Minister's Department during the past three or four years. In 1926 a fully qualified county surveyor could be got for Cork county for £250 per annum. Only three weeks ago I saw a letter from the Minister's Department deploring the fact that the county council were not paying more than £400 for an official that could be got for £250 in 1926. I might say that the Minister's Department is the worst Department as far as salaries are concerned. It attempts to force salaries up over the heads of the elected representatives who, at least, know the conditions of the country.

We have unemployment, I might say, being specially created. We see our toy Army marching around in English boots, fed on New Zealand butter, wearing a uniform that came from England, and buttons from London. Yet we are told about unemployment. Surely material used by the services of the State, which are being maintained out of the pockets of the Irish taxpayers, should be procured in Ireland. That is the least the taxpayers might expect. It is no wonder that we have unemployment when that is the case. No wonder the Irish farmer cannot get a price for his butter when the policy of the Government is that if cheap home butter cannot be got for the Army it will be got from New Zealand. If a tariff were put on New Zealand butter the price of the Irish farmers' butter might go up. We had the amazing statement that the farmers were comparatively well off. At present farmers are selling farm produce from 30 to 40 per cent. under pre-war prices. Every farmer knows that that statement is correct. The price of grain in the market to-day is 30 to 40 per cent. under pre-war prices, yet we were told that farmers are well off. The country is about tired of doles and sops. The sop the President held out was that the De-rating Commission would soon bring in a report. He did not tell us that that report is going to be against the de-rating of farmers. He did not tell us what trouble he had with the De-rating Commission. There was nothing about that when he told us about the condition of affairs here, or when he stated that the people have as good social services as the people of any other European country. Does he think that the people here are going to be always duped? Does he think that the farmer here is as well off as the farmer across the Border who has no agricultural rates to pay? Surely the farming community, when they pay enormous salaries, out of proportion to what the country can bear, are entitled to have some scheme brought in which will enable them to carry on.

We hear of a national flag, and when we look up and see the flag which is flying even over this building we find that it was not made in Ireland—that the contract was given outside Ireland. Surely, there is somebody in Ireland able to make a national flag. When we see that condition of affairs and hear of the unemployment that exists, we wonder do the Ministers think they are dealing with a nation of idiots. Perhaps they think they can continue to bluff, or it may be that they consider they have gone so far they cannot continue much longer and they do not care a hang. If they have come to that conclusion. I will ask them to clear out to-night because the longer they remain the poorer the country is getting. If they cleared out there would be some hope of a Government coming in and pulling the country round. Apparently, Ministers hope to hang on until they have the country in such a condition that no future Government can pull it round. I wonder what an old farmer, who had come up from Cork, after selling his oats at £3 10s. 0d., in order to stave off some writs, would say when he saw the brand new carpet outside. Would he say that we were very prosperous? He would probably have the idea that the people here had turned some corner.

To continue the President's statement, paragraph six of the "Financial Times" says: "In Dublin, quite a wave of optimism has lifted transactions to boom levels. To a very great extent, this rosy condition of affairs across St. George's Channel reflects the relatively prosperous condition of the country." Listening to the President's statement, I thought I was reading the "Financial Times." It was only when he mentioned that on to-morrow he intended to introduce a Vote for relief that I realised that it was no newspaper I was listening to, but the responsible head of the Executive Government of the Twenty-Six Counties of Ireland. The statement read by the President conveys very little to the mind of the average citizens of these Twenty-Six Counties. It was certainly a very adroit juggling of figures, a very finely phrased document, which, read quickly, might convey to those who had not the intention of criticising it afterwards, that this country was the paradise which he painted. But to anyone who attempts a critical analysis of the figures which he quoted, and to anyone who has given any thought to the question of where the economic policy pursued by this Government is leading the Twenty-Six Counties, it was a statement born in despair, a statement which conveys no hope whatsoever to those who were looking to the re-opening of the Dáil to provide some road towards which they could travel towards economic regeneration.

The President, in the course of his statement, said we could take comfort and encouragement from the position. If the mass of figures which he has given the Dáil are the only indications of comfort and encouragement in the position, then I am afraid that the ordinary people who will read to-morrow morning's paper will find themselves very much disillusioned, very much disheartened and in a more bitter mood against this Government and against this Dáil than they were before the Dáil resumed. There is neither comfort nor encouragement to be taken from the present economic situation in this part of Ireland. The President said that the unemployment register shows a decrease of 50 per cent. in the number of registered unemployed as compared with 1922. In consequence of the refusal of the Government to disclose the registered number of unemployed citizens, we are unable to say exactly what the figure of those registered is. But in 1926 the number of registered unemployed was admitted to be 44,000. In 1922, it was lower than that and in 1930 we may take 50 per cent. more off. We find, by that process, that the registered number of unemployed, according to the President, would be 10,000 or 12,000. Anybody who has taken the trouble to calculate the number of unemployed citizens in any one town in his own constituency, any Deputy who has given thought to the number of citizens able and willing to work and unable to find work in any town in his constituency, can very quickly disillusion the President as regards the accuracy of those figures. In the constituency of West Cork, there are about seven towns of importance and I make bold to say, on a quick calculation, that that constituency alone, in its towns, could account for seven or eight thousand persons able and willing to work but who are unable to find it. The President says that we must take encouragement from the position, that there is no justification for alarmist statements and no call for heroic measures. If there is no justification for alarmist statements and no call for heroic measures, why this belated vote of £300,000 as a dole, why this inadequate attempt to deal with the distress that exists in the Twenty-Six Counties? Why the resolutions from responsible local authorities who cannot be accused of exaggerating the situation as it exists in their own counties? Everybody who has any connection with local authorities in this part of Ireland knows that the figures of home assistance give a truer picture of the position in this part of Ireland than any figures admitted by the Department of Industry and Commerce or any figures quoted in the President's statement. He stated that there was no use in representing the position as worse than it is. I agree that no solution can ever be found if mere propaganda is to be made out of the people's sufferings. No solution can be arrived at and no constructive attempt at criticism can be made if it is merely the desire to secure party capital or to provide propaganda. But there is no use in ignoring the facts as they are.

There is no use in attempting to camouflage the issue by a magnificent array of figures. Distress, poverty, misery and despair do exist in this country and whether this House believe it or not, or whether they take action or not, people outside believe it. The people outside know it and if the authorities in this Dáil fail to act up to their responsibilities the people will make them. The President stated that the citizens had an appreciable amount left over for investment, that the credit of the State was high and that these two factors proved the prosperity of the Twenty-Six Counties. There is no doubt that taking the prosperity of the State as based on the figures at which the National Loan, the Agricultural Credit Loan and land stock stand in this country at the moment the country is certainly magnificient but the prosperity of a country, to my mind, depends not on the figures at which the National Loans are, not on the boom of stocks and shares in the stock market, but on the relative prosperity and happiness of the people and on the number of people who are in the bread line, on the number of people who do not know where their next meal is coming from. If the prosperity of the country could be judged by the boom in stocks and shares, then certainly the Free State is prosperous but that is surely no test of prosperity because it is the prosperity of a class not of the people.

We must get back to the facts of the situation in dealing with this question. The facts of the situation are that there has been and will continue to be while this misguided economic policy of the Executive Council is pursued a steady decline in the basic industries of the State, a tremendous drop in wholesale prices and a steady growth of the army of unemployed. While this condition of affairs exists it is ridiculous and hypocritical to speak of prosperity. It is hypocritical to speak of statements based on actual facts and statements made in the hope of magnifying a position which does not exist. A position does exist and the Executive Council has not yet faced it in this Dáil. The people must get some more reassuring statement from the President than the statement he read out to us to-night. The fact that he intends to introduce this inadequate sum of £300,000 may be cited as a belated effort to deal with the problems of distress. Certainly I am glad that that amount of money is going to be voted by the Dáil. Anything is better than nothing. It certainly is not adequate to meet the situation. A half-a-million would be a very inadequate sum in view of the number of unemployed.

When I speak of the unemployed I do not mean merely those citizens of the towns who are unemployed. I speak of the small farmers who are unable to pay their annuities. I speak of those who have small plots of land on which they should be paid to live instead of being forced by the Land Commission to pay annuities, a debt which they certainly never owed. It is useless to talk of relief in the shape of a De-rating Commission. De-rating Commissions may come and go. It takes time for Commissions to make their reports. It takes time for legislation to be passed by the Dáil, and before these rosy promises are fulfilled many people will have passed out of the soil and many families will have taken to the emigrant ship. De-rating cannot mean very much for those people who are compelled to seek a livelihood in other lands. The President has an easy remedy if he seizes it. It may require more statesmanship but he can solve the problem in a far more adequate way than the giving of more sops and doles in the shape of money. It is a suggestion that may be scorned by practically all parties in this House but it is based on actual fact and on the justice of the case, and that is absolute repudiation of the payment of annuities, the keeping in this country at the moment of the money which is being sent abroad. If it means that the farmers have still got to pay it to the Exchequer of the Irish Free State it is not giving them any relief either. The Government have got to take their courage in their hands and scrap these annuities and give the people back the land which is theirs under God. That will solve this problem. It will provide a remedy far more efficient than juggling with doles and figures. But, as I say, it requires statesmanship. It may be left to a day when the people outside will force it and it is better to take it in time.

The President stated that the Unemployment Fund was now solvent and that as a result of that the Executive Council intend to make a generous gesture. The Unemployment Fund has been making a profit of £300,000 a year on the workers of this State. Now the Fund is nearly solvent, and the President proposes to give back by way of a generous gesture money which has been robbed from the unemployed. That is offered to us as a wonderful gift by a fairy godfather. It is only justice and there is nothing to be proud of in doing it at this belated hour. In every other country in the civilised world the Unemployment Fund is in debt. No profit has been made out of the unemployed in Britain. The debt there is up to £100,000,000, and £10,000,000 was voted again this week. Yet we are giving this as a fairy gift. If the President really wishes to deal with the Unemployment Insurance Fund in an adequate manner to meet the requirements of the out-of-work, he should amend the Act to mean that twelve months' stamps get twelve months' pay. That would meet the case in a far more equitable manner than the present suggestion.

We have been told also, that the De-rating Commission will deal with the question of the farmers, and that a full-time Tariff Commission is to be set up in order to ensure that claims which may be put before it will be dealt with adequately, efficiently, and in time. Tariffs or no tariffs, the situation of the workers and farmers in this country is going to be the same unless something else is added to it. It takes statesmanship and courage to produce a constructive economic policy. I think the Government really cannot produce a sound national economic policy without going further than tariffs and giving a monopoly of the Irish market to certain Irish manufacturers. They must see that there is a Prices Control Board, and that tariffs do not increase the cost of living on the workers and small farmers.

We will get an opportunity, I presume, of dealing with this question of the Relief Vote to-morrow. I would like to say, however, that if the Government believe that the situation is as rosy as they say it is, there is very little use in a minority in this House attempting to make a suggestion which will only be treated with ridicule. If the Government admit that the situation is critical, and do not attempt to minimise it, they will get down to producing a more sensible solution of the problem than the statement which was read by the President this evening. Undoubtedly, the situation in the country is bad, and the people of the country are about tired of vote-catching expedients. The ordinary workers of this country, and the unemployed particularly, want to know where they are going to get food. Whether that statement is laughed at or not, there are many people in this country who are on the border-line of starvation. Pride forbids many of them from disclosing their position, as in the case that occurred a few years ago down the country. There are a whole lot of farmers on the border-line of starvation, and there is no use minimising the position. There is no use producing figures of exports and imports, or saying that the adverse trade balance is falling. That will bring little comfort or hope to the people to whom I refer. The Government must go further.

I hope that before this debate is concluded the President or some responsible Minister will give an indication of how exactly the £300,000 is going to be applied. I should like to know whether it is going to be given in cash grants or whether it is to be utilised for relief schemes which might mean six or seven months by the time all the red tape of the Departments is overcome. Unless there is an alternative policy to deal with the situation I have referred to, unless there is a policy that will ensure that while all these schemes are waiting to materialise nobody is going to starve because of lack of food, it is useless to expect assistance from the Executive Council. I hope that they will take that policy in hand and that they will produce evidence of good faith for the people of the country by saying that whilst there is food in this country nobody is going to starve. I ask them to give some indication of their attitude in this matter. I hope that when this debate is resumed the President will have a more optimistic statement to make based on the real facts of the case. His statement to-day was optimistic enough, but was not based on the facts. I hope that he will give some encouragement to the country and that he will produce a statement based on the facts as they exist and not as published in the "Financial Times."

It is an amazing fact, but as inevitable as it is amazing, that the mere sight of bars and cages, by some strange type of atavistic recoil, drives Deputy Corry into a frenzy and into a chattering such as one would not ordinarily expect from a human being. It is equally amazing that the President's statement should have driven the Opposition into a similar frenzy. Deputy Mullins has summarised quite well what other people have said here. "What is the good," Deputy Mullins asked, "in giving quite a number of indices of economic health as long as people are determined to call themselves sick?" There is no good in pointing out to the hypochondriac that his pulse is regular, that his heart is sound, that his appetite is good, that he sleeps well at night, that no medical examination can reveal any constitutional defect. The hypochondriac is going to be ill no matter what facts are put before him.

The President's statement to-day was a simple one; it was a statement required in the present state of hypochondria into which the country has fallen. He indicated that there had been a regular policy followed in regard to a certain type of production in farming, a good policy, sound, but not too conservative in the matter of finance, and protection for industry, and he showed the results. He gave certain indices by which one can judge what is the state of industry at the moment, and the first response made to that was by Deputy de Valera that the figures were rushed on him, that he could not understand them, and that if he could understand them he did not believe them. The figures were taken from ordinary publications, figures which any person elected to represent the people of this country should have known, and which the leader of an Opposition who pretends to be an economist should have at his fingers' ends, should have known the arguments founded upon them, and should be ready for them.

The President has spoken of finance, of agriculture, of industry, and has shown certain results that have followed from past policy. In regard to these, he has indicated an extension of policy in one or two matters. He dealt with some of the panaceas put forward with regard to agriculture, and showed that as far as this Government is concerned, we will have none of them. He said with regard to certain items which are being dangled before the eyes of the farmers of this country that they were small, that the imports were negligible, and that tariffs in these matters cannot affect the situation here. He was referring to beef, mutton, eggs and feeding barley. Let us hope that there will be a rush to bring these things before the Tariff Commission, and to get the facts that are easily ascertainable brought out, so that we can have the results before the Dáil at an early date. He said with regard to feeding stuffs that we regard that as the raw material of a certain type of production, and that we would have nothing to do with the placing of tariffs upon these things. The question of bacon will come up for discussion to-morrow, and I will leave it.

He announced the establishment of a full-time Tariff Commission, and he stated why that change was considered desirable at this moment. Into these reasons I shall go at greater length in a moment. He indicated that there had been introduced a piece of legislation to-day, the effect of which was to give to industry, equally divided as between the employer and the employee, the sum of £224,000 per annum, the State getting in return a very welcome saving of something over £60,000, and he pointed to that fact with pride and I point to it with pride. We are about the only country in the world at the moment who, while keeping the benefits now paid to work-people in this insurance scheme, can point to such a state of solvency in the unemployment fund that these reductions are possible.

How has that result been brought about? Several speakers from that side have used the phrase, "as long as this Government stands for Free Trade." I have countered that assertion on many occasions; I am going even at the cost of repetition to counter it again. I gave my calculation once before; I state it once more. I take the imports and divide them arbitrarily into those I think can be taxed and those which cannot be taxed, and I assert that 50 per cent. of those that can be taxed have been tariffed. There are results from these tariffs that can be seen in the way of increased employment. The figures of direct employment resulting from the tariffed industries are nearly 13,500, and the indirect employment is much greater. Those tariffs, some of them chosen by ourselves in 1924 and 1925, and others later chosen by the Tariff Commission, have imposed some burden upon the consuming population here. I made an examination of these tariffs early this year; I do not propose to go into all the details again. I said, as far as the main number of the articles tariffed were concerned, that a man buying Irish products at the moment can buy as cheaply as the man who buys the imported articles, but I said in four groups of articles, and those four include the two greatest—apparel, and boots and shoes—the consuming public is paying something by reason of the tariff. In so far as boots and shoes are still coming in the full tariff weight is being felt in the price charged and in so far as articles manufactured here are concerned about 7 per cent. has to be borne extra by the people of the country. So far as apparel is concerned the calculation is a very difficult one. Taking it all in all, and remembering that women's clothing not made here forms such a large proportion of apparel, it again can be said with justice that in this a fairly heavy tax is being borne by the consumer.

With regard to the others I repeat what I said before. There is little or nothing extra being paid by reason of the fact that people buy the Irish manufactured article. That can be said now five or six years after the imposition of these tariffs, but if in 1925 I had spoken of the articles tariffed in 1924 I should have had to say with regard to all the then tariffed articles that the consuming public was paying something more. Again, with those imposed the next year if I examined these the year after I should have to say that the consuming public was paying something more. After a certain number of years some of our manufacturers have got to the point where they are producing efficiently and with as great economy as can be expected.

When I spoke in the early part of this summer on the matter I said possibly the time had come when new groups might be selected for the imposition of tariffs. Believing that in the early years some cost is imposed on the consumer, would anybody, in the state of agricultural depression that is said to exist in the country, ask that many more manufactured articles should be tariffed? Remember, further, that the tariffs that we chose were the simpler ones, the ones in which there seemed to be given a great bulk of employment, in which there seemed to be a great likelihood of our manufacturers getting on their feet and producing efficiently and economically, and that the ones we left over were the ones about which those facts cannot clearly be established. The ones left over were those in which there was less likelihood of the manufacturers getting their feet under them and of employment resulting. These are some of the reasons why the groups of articles still left untariffed—the other 50 per cent.—may have to be examined in a more careful way than even the ones previously tariffed. But that is not the whole reason for the appointment of a Tariff Commission on a whole-time basis with which I shall deal later. These tariffed industries, I say, have brought, at any rate, this certainly to this country: 13,000 people in employment who never were in employment before; 13,000 people judged in terms of full-time occupation in industry who were never in industry before.

The other side of the picture has to be looked at. How many unemployed are there in the country? I have spoken about this subject a great many times at great length but that will not deter me from speaking again about it and at equal length. I speak mainly of the industrially occupied, because it is my particular task to deal with the people who are in insurable occupations. I have always asserted the substantial accuracy of the live register. It is somewhere about the 20,000 mark at present. I assert again, despite all that has been said by way of argument, that that 20,000 substantially represents the volume of the unemployed in the insurable occupations. I have asked that if the present system does not get a correct total of the unemployed in the insurable occupations, what other system will? You can do it better. You can do it by occupying about one official to every person who was supposed to be unemployed and keeping constantly on the track of the supposed unemployed man to see whether he could get into an occupation or not. Except by a house-to-house search by Civic Guards or other officials to follow groups of unemployed in small numbers, there is no better way of getting the return than the way we have adopted.

Again I put to the Dáil the way we have adopted. Under the present system, in order to get registered as out of work, all that a person has to do is to get a piece of paper, something with which to write, have the capacity to write and the ability to fold up his document and put it in a letterbox. It costs nothing. That is all there is required from a man to get his name registered as unemployed. The argument is advanced: What is the good of getting registered as unemployed if there is no benefit to follow? There may be no benefit to follow in the sense of unemployment insurance benefit in the case of a certain number of people who register, but two facts can be urged against the views of those who hold that only those people register who have unemployment insurance benefit coming to them. The first is this: that no matter how much the actual figures of the unemployed register vary from year to year, one percentage remains constant, that about one-third of those who are on the register have no unemployment insurance benefit accruing to them. So that from year to year you have, at any rate, one-third of the actual register who do continue to register although there is no unemployment benefit coming to them. That is one fact that has to be taken into consideration. The other fact is this: that there is an incentive to register. I have stated this on many occasions. The average number of vacancies filled through the employment exchanges from year to year is in the neighbourhood of 18,000. Is it worth a man's while, knowing that year by year 18,000 vacancies are filled through the exchanges, to get a pencil and a piece of paper and write his name upon the paper and put it in the letterbox without any charge to himself? And if it is not, can it be said that unemployment presses very heavily upon a man who refuses to do that? Can it be argued that our unemployment register is not an accurate reflection of the pressure of unemployment upon the population of the country?

Will the Minister ela- borate that? There is unemployment and casual unemployment——

I shall make my own speech.

And vacancies filled for a couple of days a week——

There was a census taken, and comment has been made on the failure to produce the result of that census. Deputy Lemass in particular has made play with the fact that three times he asked a question, and three times he got different answers. He did, because the questions were different. To-day he goes to the root of the matter for the first time. He and Deputy Cassidy questioned me to-day. One of them spoke of information relating to unemployment ascertained by the census, and the other—Deputy Cassidy—spoke of the statistics about unemployment ascertained by the census. My answer was perfectly accurate. Unfortunately, statistics about unemployment have not been ascertained by the census. I said in reply to the questions asked to-day that the query put in the census paper was phrased in a peculiar and general form. It asked: "Are you or are you not out of work?" We do not want in this House, if we are serious about the problem, to know the number of people out of work. If you count in the out-of-works, the men who have land, and who have let that land, and have no incentive to work, and do not mean to work, who could describe themselves as out of work; the people who are so ill that they cannot work, the people who are too young to work and too old to be at work, you can get a figure right away. I prefer not to give that figure until an analysis has been made to see if we can get something relating to unemployment.

What is meant by unemployment? It is very hard to get a precise definition. The tot of people we want, if we are serious about the problem, is the number of people capable of working, willing to work, available for work, genuinely seeking work and unable to get it. If any of these items is missing, then the person is not, to my mind, properly described as unemployed. Capable of working, willing to work, genuinely seeking it and unable to get it! I think something else should be added if we are to get down to the root of the problem, and that is that the person who describes himself unemployed in that way should be a person whose wages depend upon the getting of work, and who is dependent on these wages. I need not refine so far as that. I have not got figures that show the people who are available for work, genuinely seeking work, willing to work and unable to get it. I can give a figure about the out-of-work. I am trying to get two special items in the figures which have come to me resolved. It has taken months, and I am not at the end of it yet. The situation is clearing, but whether it will lead in the end to a decision that the figures mean nothing, as the Germans have decided, I cannot say.

I have spoken of the Germans. As might be expected from them, having greater experience of taking information in this way, their question was not asked just in the casual way in which unfortunately our question was asked. They had different questions asked and different columns set out and instructions were given more or less in the following way: "Persons who are at the moment unemployed without occupation, without situation, but not persons on strike or locked out are to enter in this column a certain mark. If they are unemployed because of illness or temporary incapacity for work they are to enter in another column." Persons out of work, looking for work, seeking a position are defined in this way. "Persons who have formerly followed a calling but are at present without employment should enter their business in a particular form." Even though the information returned was based upon these specialised questions they have now confessed with regard to the returns taken in 1925 that the figures serve no useful purpose and are not going to be published. I know two other industrial countries which have decided that the only way to get figures with regard to unemployment is a house-to-house investigation which cannot be completed in one day but will have to extend over very many months.

We have two big defects in these figures. We took a census in 1926 and in the following year, 1927, a census was taken for the purpose of getting the agricultural production figures. My return gives a certain number of people who described themselves as farmers working on their own or on other people's land. The census of agricultural production asked a question, the answer to which put people into the same category. There was a difference of just over a year, from April of one year to June in the next. Here is the surprising result that my census of population shows a figure of about 250,000 less, returning themselves as farmers working on their own or other people's land, than the census of agricultural production. That is not a matter that we can lightly pass over. Where have the 250,000 gone? Is there any explanation why in 1927 a certain number of people should return themselves as farmers who did not return themselves as farmers in 1926?

There is another calculation which leads to the same conclusion as that to which these other figures lead. Certain people are returned by the census volume of 1926 as wage-earners, and to check this return there is another way of arriving at the wage earning population of the country. There is the National Health Insurance scheme. Under that scheme it can safely be said that all the wage earning population of the country is classified with the exception of the army, the police and the civil service. To them must be added, to make the tot accurate, a certain group of people (about 40,000) who have been excepted from the process of National Health Insurance. When I take that figure as giving the wage earning population of the Free State and I take the figure given in the Census volume, I get a difference again of about 180,000 as between the two. I get an actual difference of about 200,000. In the end, the same principle rules the two sets of discrepancies. A certain number of people in 1927 were asked precisely this question: Are you engaged in agricultural occupation? And the whole direction of the question being towards agricultural occupation, 250,000 more people answered in the affirmative than in the previous year. When it came to the census of the year before they were dealing with unemployment. You have apparently 200,000 people in this country who have land of their own but who do not work on that land as their main occupation. They take work on the roads, they fish for a bit; they take work on anything that offers in the neighbourhood of their holding. They returned themselves for the agricultural census as people working on their own or other person's land but when it came to this census they returned themselves in a different way. How many of these people did in 1926 regard themselves as farmers? 250,000 or 200,000 less than did regard themselves as farmers in 1927. How many returned themselves as out of work, and when they did return themselves as out of work to which of their several occupations did that out of work apply? Did it mean that there was no more Land Commission work going in the neighbourhood, and they said they were out of work be cause they were previously employed on that? Did it mean that there was no more road work but that they still had their holdings? These are the questions we had to examine striving to get an analysis and to resolve the returns to see if there was any way of discovering how many of these people were properly classified as out of work in the sense that they can get no work, that they are properly unemployed under the terms of the definition I previously gave.

There is another group. The census return which I have, excluded people who were ill and in institutions, but it did not exclude people ill as long as they were not in institutions. How many people returned themselves as out of work in my census return, who were in fact, incapacitated by reason of sickness from working? I have got calculations from the National Health Insurance people at each of two dates for about three years and roughly this emerges: that somewhere between 20,000 and 23,000 people were on these dates—the end of June and December —in receipt of benefit under the National Health Insurance scheme. That means that they must have been so incapacitated by ill-health as to be debarred from working. That is the principle of the National Health Insurance scheme. How many were in institutions? It looks on the average as if, out of a floating 23,000 all but 2,000 were not in institutions. How many of these people, who were not in institutions but who to qualify for benefit must be so definitely incapacitated by sickness as not to be able to take up work, returned themselves as out of work? I say it is a moral certainty that most of them did so. It would be a peculiar census return which would allow people who are getting sickness benefit on the basis that sickness prevents them getting work, to return themselves as anything else than out of work. We have to try to get to the bottom of these figures. Is it worth while publishing figures which give you all the groups of people in this country, the aged over 70, those between 12 and 16, those who were under the National Health Insurance benefit scheme to the number of 23,000 or 24,000 about that time, people who were working on salaries, the professional classes, people who have land which they have rented and are not working themselves, people who work under no contract of service, as carpenters do not in the country, or motor car drivers, people who have motors for hire? Is it worth while giving out a list as those out of work if it includes all these people, as well as including all those of the pensioner class in the country; those of the judges or the police or the civil service who have retired on moneys they have earned and who would naturally return themselves as out of work? Is it better to delay for some months to try and get to the bottom of these figures in order to get a really accurate return of the people unemployed in the sense we are getting it, or to broadcast a figure which will include all the sick and the aged, and those from 12 to 16, boys and girls, and leave, even after we do that, still outstanding this great question of where have disappeared the 200,000 or 250,000 who one year described themselves as farmers although in the previous year they had not so described themselves?

These are some of the difficulties that have faced me in regard to the census. As I stated earlier, I am not without hopes that some body of reliable information, of use to the public, can still be got from the returns, but the returns would always have to be regarded with a certain amount of inaccuracy. They cannot be put forward except in that way. As far as the industrial side of the census is concerned, I believe, and I have some knowledge of the figures, that the most accurate calculation on the industrial side will show that my live register is a substantially accurate reflection of the numbers unemployed about that time. The other side of it is more in the region of conjecture.

Whatever suspicions or doubts people may have in their minds, at any rate, about the numbers of the unemployed, one thing about which there can be no doubt is the position of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. We introduced here to-day a Bill which, while maintaining the same benefits to those who are out of work, and who comply with the statutory conditions, effects a reduction of from 1s. 7d. to 1s. 1d., as paid by the joint contributions of the employer and the employee. It means, as I said previously, a gift to industry equally shared by what Deputy Davin would call my friends of the Chamber of Commerce and his friends, not of the Chamber of Commerce, of a sum of £224,000.

And your Ministry.

And the taxpayer, if that is what the Deputy means by my Ministry, gets £62,000. That, at any rate, shows a solvent Unemployment Insurance Fund.

Would the Minister say what, in his opinion, has led to that?

The most careful handling of the whole unemployment situation in this country.

And emigration.

Emigrants do not pay into the Fund.

Not after they go away. They do not get benefit when they go away.

Deputy de Valera questions this as a good thing. He wondered how if the Fund was still insolvent it was going to be brought nearer solvency by this measure. Deputy Lemass thought it was long overdue, and Deputy Mullins thinks it is only justice to the employees. It will not bring the Fund any nearer to solvency. On the 1st January next year, so far as calculations can go, the Fund will still be in debt to the extent of £300,000. Taking an average for the last three or four years, the annual surplus as between income and outgoings is in the neighbourhood of £330,000 per annum. What we have decided to do is this: that instead of liquidating that debt completely next year, we shall, now that industry is on the turn and that businessmen are getting a little bit more optimistic, give them whatever fillip this is, this year, instead of delaying what Deputy Mullins calls justice to the employees for another year. It is not going to make the Fund solvent or insolvent. It is going to lengthen the period over which the debt will be paid, but on whatever debt does remain interest will be paid and contributions made to liquidate all the debt in a very short number of years.

I have talked of tariffs that have been established and of the result of them. I have spoken of tariffs that are still to come, and, in that connection, I made reference to the fact that to-day there was announced the setting up of a whole-time Tariff Commission. The President, speaking of that, said that it was because in these times we require more prompt, but not any less careful, decisions from the Tariff Commission. He referred to the world movements which have certainly operated, as far as I was concerned, to make me recommend and press strongly for the appointment of a whole-time Tariff Commission. I know it causes a smile in this assembly to talk of world matters. People pretend to be so selfcentred that they imagine it is possible to live in this country without any appreciation whatever of events outside or without any thought that events outside may have some reaction upon the internal economy of this country. I do not share that view. We must take our place in some of the many economic groups which are in process of being formed at this time.

The world at this moment is disturbed mainly because of events in Russia. It is disturbed by other causes also, but if the experiment that is going on in Russia of attempting to industrialise that huge community of people succeeds, the reactions will be felt in this small country, and if it fails, the reactions will none the less be felt here. That is one group of people trying to industrialise itself and trying to get markets for its products everywhere that ships can sail. There is a closer grouping together in economic life of the States of America and one member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, stands, according to its Premier, at the parting of the ways—hesitating as to whether it will be able any longer to remain in the group known as the Commonwealth or will have to go into economic association with the United States. A great Frenchman has promulgated his plan, which so far has met with praise, but with very little other result, for grouping together all the States of Europe into closer economic association. Not in opposition to but coincident with all these other movements for closer economic association there is a closing movement within the group known as the British Commonwealth of Nations.

I suppose the popular view as expressed at meetings would be that we should keep apart from all of these movements. How then are we going to live? Is it considered that we can live here economically isolated, that we are not to have any touch with the outer world? If people admit that we must have some touch with the outer world, then with what part of the outer world? That outer world seems now to be grouping itself into these close economic associations. Inside these big groups there are smaller groups consolidating as well. Even if we are to keep outside these groups, try to live in isolation, try to fend for ourselves, and be completely on our own, that policy should not be decided on without exact appreciation of what follows. It should not be decided on without exact appreciation of the way in which we will find ourselves if that policy is worked out to complete success.

We have gone through a great many of our industries and have had pretty good reports about a great many of them. We have had some of them sent to us by Tariff Commissions and other bodies. I, in my own Department, have got a vast amount of information, collected by the forty-four advisory committees of which I spoke early this summer. Plentiful and exact information has been collected with regard to the industrial life of the country but there are a great many industries non-existent in this country. There are a great many manufactories that, if we had complete freedom and if one could feel that the farming community would not have too many burdens placed upon its back, one would like to start. How are we to get this information about industries not yet existing here? How is one to know from what point the first drive will come, from which of these economic groups will the first attempt be made to isolate us? We must have accurate information if we are to have a definite policy. That is one reason why I think a whole-time Tariff Commission is necessary at this moment. There is another reason which I have hinted at already. We have put tariffs on a great many articles. We have got to the position with some of them that no great extra cost is falling on the consumer. While that can be said now after five or six years it could not be said in the first or second or third years of a great many of them. Greater attention has to be paid to the consumer and particularly to the agricultural consumer, now that a certain amount of depression has set on him.

A third group has to be considered. If we have to make quick changes here in order to face up to a new outside situation, one must have in mind not merely the purchaser, and particularly the agricultural consumer, but one must also have in mind our present industrialists. If one were to be quite ruthless and if one were to speak of economic advancement in the way in which the Russian five-year-plan has been formed, a great many of our present industrialists would have to walk the plank. One would have to be ruthless in such a situation, but at present nobody has any feeling that that should be done. If the situation allows of it, it should be dealt with in this way, namely, that groups of industrialists, who are not at the present moment properly placed and who consequently are not giving us economically manufactured articles—as economically as we should expect them— should be given some period in which they could improve themselves. But pressure of world movements may not allow us to give them time. It is certainly necessary in all these conflicting circumstances that a body of people should be set up able to devote their whole time to the many applications which I hope will come before the Commission in the changed circumstances of the world outside.

The President said in regard to the Tariff Commission, and it was regarded by some Deputy as an ominous phrase, that while the Executive Council was now taking power to refer matters on its own to the Tariff Commission, nevertheless, that power would not be exercised except where there were no representative groups of industrialists in the country. That was described as an ominous statement, but I do not think it should be so regarded. If there are industrialists in the country who, for some reason or another, do not desire a tariff, or who, for some reason, do not desire to have their case for a tariff examined by a body of experts, is there much good in the Executive Council referring such matters to that body? Supposing they get a favourable decision, have they then to examine, with the people who refrained from going before the Commission, the position of the industry, or must they take the bull by the horns and put on a tariff, whether these industrialists believe it is good or bad for the industry? Must the Executive Council, faced with a favourable decision by the Tariff Commission, be forced to hawk that round the country to see whether a group of industrialists will accept it, or have they to go outside and incur the odium of getting foreigners to do what native industrialists will not do? I hope that the power will be seldom used by the Executive Council to refer matters to the Tariff Commission, but I am glad the power is there. I would like that power to be used mainly in regard to the industries I have referred to, either those which have gone or those which have never been established here.

The last matter to which I have to refer is the matter dealt with by the President in regard to permanent relief for agriculture. He spoke of our present policy with regard to agricultural production. He indicated that we had no regrets for the policy that had been adopted, and that, with regard to certain things that were now being pressed forward as remedies, there were certain things we could not accept, and that there were other things which we would like to see examined at once by the Tariff Commission. With regard to the general problem, the President stated that to find the best methods of assisting agriculture to surmount its difficulties is one of our main problems at the moment. He then referred to the De-rating Commission. Deputy de Valera regarded that as something ominous. Deputy Lemass wanted to know why it was mentioned, because if the report was not going to be favourable nothing would be done to relieve agriculture. That is the worst of having a single-track mind like that of Deputy Lemass.

I did not say that.

I am sorry if my quotation is wrong. Does it give the gist of what the Deputy had in his mind?

If the report is not going to be favourable obviously it is not going to do anything to relieve agricultural depression.

I accept that. I will take the Deputy on that. I do not care whether the Commission reports in favour of or against complete or partial de-rating. What is being examined by the De-rating Commission? Is it simply a matter of "Yes" or "No" to the demand for de-rating? Surely in the examination of the question of de-rating a great deal more will result than a simple answer of "Yes" or "No" to the question? I believe, at any rate, that the De-rating Commission Report will contain a great deal of valuable material in regard to our agricultural industry, and the President had that in mind. Here we are told that the De-rating Commission is engaged in drafting its report, and we are asked at this moment when that report, which may be a mine of valuable information—and is expected to be such —is within two or three weeks of presentation, to deal with the matter of permanent relief for the agricultural community. There is nothing ominous in referring to the Report. It would be much more ominous if there was no reference to it when people know that it is so near presentation.

In the meantime—and this in no way takes away from the general statements that have been made in regard to the relative prosperity of the country—to relieve the temporary depression that has come on the country, owing in the main to bad weather conditions over the summer and autumn, a grant of £300,000 is to be voted. Naturally complaints are made that that is not enough. I wish this country could sometime get to the point of being careless about money that would be voted and that, say, £1,000,000 could be voted. Would we then get Deputies here to say it was enough? If we had made the grant £100,000 and under pressure gave £300,000, people would have been satisfied, but when we gave £300,000 immediately the cry goes up that it is not enough.

Enough to keep the back-benchers of Cumann na nGaedheal quiet. That is all it has been voted for.

The Deputy will always delude himself with fiction. Deputy Cooney is afraid of a revolt inside the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal. Deputy Lemass has that fear also.

People, and particularly Deputies opposite, should not talk so much of shattered Parties. I went away in what Deputy Lemass would call "a gadding-around-the-Continent" mood, and I at any rate thought that when I returned I would see the smiling faces of a great many Fianna Fáil aldermen opposite. I do not see them. Deputy Cooney was shattered in that rout and he ought to be the last man to talk about a Party breaking up. He has felt the effects of it in his own person, and nobody ought to be more taciturn about that particular subject.

What has that got to do with it?

Freemasonry and your fund won the day.

It was only a reference to irrelevant references that Deputy Lemass and Deputy Cooney made during the course of this debate.

Will the Minister explain what the back benchers of Cumann na nGaedheal had to do with the local elections?

I was referring to shattered Parties.

What about the grant you gave to your candidate?

To query what that means would lead us too far from the subject. Let me come back to the President's statement. That statement is very simple and very easy to understand. I have described it already as a statement which endorsed the policy that we have adopted in recent years: protection for industries, promotion of a certain type of agricultural production, and sound but not too conservative finance. The President showed the results that we had got from that. He showed that there had been depression in this country for reasons completely outside our control, and that we have had our immediate reactions towards them. He showed, and I stress it again as one of the biggest things that any President of any country can show as a sign of the times, that in industry we have got our Unemployment Insurance Fund to the point that we, of all countries in the world, can reduce the rates of contributions from employers and employees while keeping the benefits the same.

At whose expense?

At nobody's expense.

Surely the Minister does not suggest there is any necessary comparison between the system of unemployment insurance here and in England?

That is why we are in such a healthy condition, and we can point to that with pride. On the other hand, we have, arising out of the pressure of world conditions, decided upon this move, to establish the Tariff Commission on a permanent basis with the aim, as the President said, not of getting any less detailed consideration, but with a view to getting more prompt decisions, because decisions are now going to be required with more promptitude, and since applications, I hope, are going to be forced on the Tariff Commission in greater numbers. The President's statement to-day was a statement of our past policy and the results that it has brought to us. Nobody has attempted to answer the figures given with regard to all that has been done. All that we had was an apology that the figures were not understood by people who might be expected to have them at their fingers' ends, or who could have brought forward other figures that could stand the test of criticism. I want to get it established that I am quite sincere in my endeavours to get from the census of unemployment a body of information that is reliable and will be of some public good.

How long will it take the Minister to do that?

I do not know.

You have had four years to do it.

Not with regard to this particular item. A great many volumes have been produced, and if Deputies compare the volumes we have produced arising out of the 1926 Census with the material produced by any other country that has taken a census of the same type as we did, we are not behind in the production of volumes. We can stand comparison with any country in the issue of publications arising out of the Census. Remember, too, it was the first Census taken by ourselves. We had not trained to the task a very great number of people. We had to depend on four or five experts, and a staff had to be trained under these for the purpose of the Census. There is a definite attempt being made to get a body of information that will be reliable and will serve some useful public purpose. I could, as I have said, throw out a certain figure, but that might be only stereotyping for every other Census hereafter a certain type of error. I do not want figures to be put out until they have been subjected to proper analysis, and I am not attempting to excuse or apologise for delay. The only delay I would apologise for would be a delay which in the end would have been useless, and which would not enable me to get a proper analysis of the figures. I believe there will be a decent body of information produced, but I cannot, as I told Deputy Lemass to-day, say with absolute certainty that that will be the result. Above all, I cannot say when, if at all, it will be produced.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 20th November, 1930.

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