Supplementary and Additional Estimates. - Vote No. 70—Relief Schemes—(Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Friday, 28 Nov 1930

Supplementary and Additional Estimates. - Vote No. 70—Relief Schemes—(Resumed).

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance and resumed the debate on the following motion:—

"That a sum not exceeding £300,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1931, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress."—(Minister for Finance)

Mr. Lemass

This estimate for relief schemes is one of the measures adopted by the Executive Council to repair the political position of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. When the Dáil reassembled after its five months' adjournment, the President of the Executive Council outlined four distinct proposals which the Government had been considering and decided to adopt in order to remedy that position. If any Deputy at the time had doubts concerning the political basis of the proposals, these doubts have been removed by the speeches which have been delivered by Ministers in relation to them. The proposal to impose a prohibition tariff upon imported butter was not designed to help the dairy farmers, who are not likely to be affected by it, but in the hope that the tariff would result in a rise in prices, which was, in fact, invited by the Minister for Agriculture when speaking on the matter. The Minister hopes to be able to come to the Dáil next week or the following week and point to the rise in prices, alleging that it is an inevitable result of protection and then pose as the saviour of the country in asking that the tariff be removed. The Bill —which was introduced to alter the Tariff Commission Act—was designed not to improve the machinery of the Tariff Commission, but to enable the Executive Council to refer to it certain matters relating to tariffs on agricultural produce which have been attracting public attention and thus stifle discussion upon these tariffs for the next year or two, or, at any rate, until the General Election has been negotiated. The proposal to alter the financial basis of the Unemployment Insurance scheme is designed to create an illusion of prosperity that does not exist, and the Vote of £300,000 for relief schemes is designed to provide a fund wherewith members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party can silence the dissatisfaction amongst their own supporters.

It is rather an extraordinary thing that, in the speech in which the President indicated that the Government was going to submit these proposals to the Dáil, to deal with the present situation, he also endeavoured to show that there is, in fact, no situation to be dealt with. Having demonstrated to his own satisfaction, if not to the satisfaction of anybody else, that the country was on the crest of a wave of prosperity, he proceeded to indicate the steps which the Government would take if, in fact, the conditions were as bad as black-hearted members of the Fianna Fáil Party were continuously alleging. The speech of Deputy Sheehy last night, although much more eloquent, was of a similar type, and reminds me of a song which I heard some years ago entitled, "I wonder what it feels like to be poor?" I wonder what are the feelings of the people of every other country in the world in which unemployment and trade depression exist when they contemplate the prosperity that exists here? Those international economists who met at Geneva and voiced their astonishment at the manner in which the Executive Council of the Irish Free State had been able to prevent any of the ill-effects of the world depression being felt here, must surely have considered that the members of that Executive Council possessed more ability and better judgment than all the members of all the Executives of Europe put together.

The Executive Council appear, however, to want it both ways. Not merely are they continually reiterating that this country is prosperous, more prosperous than it has ever been before, to quote Deputy Tierney, but they expect the Dáil at the same time to agree to the enactment of emergency measures of this kind, which would not be necessary if distress did not exist. This Vote, the President stated, is a temporary expedient designed to deal with a temporary situation. There is no doubt whatever that it is a temporary expedient. The £300,000 will be spent on relief works of some kind, useful, perhaps, perhaps not, and when it is spent the situation will remain much as it was before the money was made available.

I would like to take issue with the President concerning the temporary nature of the situation that has to be dealt with. I do not think that any attempt has been made to demonstrate that there exists in this country this winter a situation in any way different to that which existed in previous winters, or that the causes of any distress or poverty that may exist are not permanent. We are, of course, handicapped by the fact that we have very little information on the matter. The Department of Industry and Commerce have seen to that. We do not know the exact extent of unemployment. We thought we would know as a result of the census of 1926, and so did the Minister for Industry and Commerce until last week. Last week he discovered that we had not, in fact, ascertained any information concerning unemployment when the census was taken, and that we will have to remain as ignorant of that subject as before until another census is made on another basis.

The figures relating to the registered unemployed are frequently produced here as an indication of the extent of unemployment in the country. They are no such indication, as I have repeatedly endeavoured to convince Ministers in the past. Our efforts appear to have been fruitless, however, because the same statements are made this year with the same audacity as ever. It may be that members of the Executive Council are, like the Bourbons, incapable of learning anything, but we hope in time to get it understood by them that the number of the registered unemployed is no indication of the extent of the unemployment existing in the country. If we work on the principle that constant dropping wears a stone we may, perhaps, get it into the heads of Ministers in due course. Examining the variations in the number of registered unemployed we find that the situation this year is similar to the situation that has existed since the Free State Government was established. There have been fluctuations in these figures from time to time. The numbers have sometimes fallen and have sometimes risen. It is, of course, impossible to compare the number this year with the number in 1922, because in 1922 there was extended benefit available under the Unemployment Insurance Act, and there was an inducement to unemployed workers to register that does not exist now.

If we compare this year with last year we find that the number registered as unemployed is increasing. The number in July, 1929, was 17,126, and in July of this year was 18,145, whilst in November of this year it was 23,990. While the number of registered unemployed has increased this year between July and November the number of persons in receipt of Unemployment Insurance benefit is not increasing at the same rate. Only 53 per cent. of the registered unemployed were in receipt of benefit in July and only 50 per cent. in November. Consequently we must assume that the position is that workers are remaining unemployed for longer periods than heretofore and that quite large numbers of those who are in casual employment are now unemployed for a sufficient length of time to deprive them of their right to their Unemployment Insurance benefit. That is one of the situations we have to deal with. There are 24,000 registered unemployed.

Again let me remind Deputies that they must not assume that 24,000 represents the number of workers idle who are willing to work and available for it. Out of a total occupied population of 1,300,000 there are only 284,000 employed in occupations insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. If we compare the number of workers employed in such occupations with the total occupied population and calculate from that comparison the relation which must exist between the number of unemployed workers in insurable occupations with the number of total unemployed, we will be forced to the conclusion that there cannot be less than 50,000 workers of all kinds idle at this moment. There does not appear to have been any considerable variation in the figure for the last four or five years. When the Shannon Scheme was started a number of workers were given employment. That scheme has now terminated and those workers are back on the labour market. When the Ford tractor works in Cork were started some 7,000 hands got employment there. That number has now been reduced to 2,000. Recently, quite a number of industrial concerns have been forced to reduce the employment given by them, while some of them have closed altogether. Despite the fact that in February, 1929, we imposed a tariff upon imported woollen cloth, there has been in this year a substantial decline in the number of persons employed in the woollen industry. In fact, the number of persons now employed in that industry is almost at the lowest point reached since 1922. The same applies to the coach-building industry. The number of persons employed in that industry has decreased by 50 per cent. within the last twelve months. Only last week a flour mill closed down in Cork and another in Tipperary.

Our industries are going one by one in consequence of the failure of the Government to take adequate measures to protect them against unfair foreign competition. The unemployment and hardships created by their disappearance is not being adequately guarded against by any measures which the Executive Council have proposed to the Dáil since its re-assembly. The one desire of members of the Executive appears to be to parade a mass of figures designed to show that, in fact, unemployment does not exist, and that the Dáil need not worry about, it. I think that is very unfair to the unfortunate people concerned. If the Dáil appreciated the seriousness of the situation, and realised its power to remedy it, then I have no doubt that we could get a joint effort from all parties to hammer out a scheme for doing so. But when we find that those responsible for leading the Dáil, and responsible for giving the Dáil the necessary information upon which to base its policy, are more concerned to misrepresent the position than to present the true facts, we cannot be surprised that the Dáil is quite satisfied because a mere £300,000 is made available for relief grants in places where it can be shown by members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party that the supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal are suffering exceptional distress.

The fall in prices which has taken place throughout the world in the last twelve months has hit this country hard. It was only to be expected that it would, because we are, in the main, primary producers, and are always the first to suffer when there is any market collapse. It has, however, hit us particularly hard, because the number of persons engaged in agriculture here is much larger than the land, as now utilised, can provide a decent livelihood for. Any Deputy who takes the agricultural statistics for this country and compares them with those for Denmark and other nations will note at once the very low value of the output per head of the different items of agriculture produced here when compared with other countries. People are being retained for work on the land for whom there is not, in fact, enough work.

The great majority of those in agriculture are, if not unemployed, underemployed. That means that when times were good and prices satisfactory it was not possible for our agriculturists to build up the same reserves against the rainy day as can be done elsewhere. When depression takes place it produces immediately a state of hardship and necessitates an immediate reduction in the standard of living of those concerned. In addition, of course, there are some 200,000 families in the Twenty-Six Counties living upon, or trying to live upon, what are described as uneconomic holdings, that is, holdings of land under fifteen acres in extent. Attempts have been made, undoubtedly, through the Land Commission, to increase the size of these holdings, but there are, nevertheless, at the present time, at least 200,000 families in this position, that unless they can get some means of earning a wage at work outside their farms they will not be able to maintain themselves upon the produce of their farms. That situation has also existed in greater or lesser degree since 1922.

A sum of £300,000 spent in the districts most concerned, which are probably Galway, Mayo and Roscommon, could not provide an adequate standard of living this winter to those persons, leaving out of account altogether the hardship and unemployment that exist in the towns, and particularly here in Dublin. There is throughout the country, I know, a general idea that Dublin is a wealthy city and that because there are a large number of persons employed here unemployment cannot be serious. There are, of course, a large number of persons employed in Dublin, and there are also a very large number unemployed, but I think that there can be no poverty so absolute as poverty in a large city like Dublin. In a rural district a person, no matter how destitute he may be, will not starve, as a rule, but in Dublin a person could be starving in one room in a tenement dwelling while people in other rooms would not even know, and if they did know, probably would not care. You have that impersonal atmosphere existing in the city, which makes poverty here a particularly severe condition to be in. The sum of £300,000 could not possibly provide work sufficient to keep all the unemployed in Dublin alone occupied over the winter.

The amount available for Dublin out of this Vote may provide two or three weeks' work in and around Christmas for a number of workers, but that would be only a mere bagatelle when taken in relation to the aggregate amount of poverty and hardship that exists. I do not wish to make any particular reference to an area in which there is a by-election at the present time, but I have had occasion to study the conditions in Ringsend. The conditions there are really appalling. They are probably worse than in any other part of the city, because in the two industries that were working there and that provided some employment, the glass bottle industry and the fishing industry, there are trade disputes, with the result that the glass bottle works are closed down, and there is every likelihood of the fishing ceasing for the same reason also.

The Dáil must face up to the fact that it cannot possibly find, out of taxation, a sum adequate to provide relief in the minimum possible measure for the unemployed and the semiunemployed. The only real cure for unemployment is the provision of work, and it is our view that in periods of depression like the present the credit of the State should be utilised to enable the Government to embark on schemes of work of national usefulness, in order to put itself in the position of being able to offer every unemployed man who is willing to work an opportunity of earning a livelihood. It may not be able to offer the workers engaged on such schemes conditions similar to those prevailing in ordinary industrial enterprises, but it can give them a much greater opportunity of being able to provide for their families and dependents than is given them at the present time. There can be no doubt but there is plenty of scope for such schemes. Reference has been made here to work of various kinds that could be undertaken. It cannot possibly be undertaken if we merely contemplate the voting of certain sums out of the Central Fund periodically for the purpose. We must be prepared to utilise the credit of the State in order to get sufficient finances to enable these schemes to be carried out. We are being continuously told that, as a result of the sound financial policy of the Government, the credit of the State stands high. I want it shown to me what advantage it is to have that sound credit position unless we propose to utilise it for our own benefit. If we are in a position to borrow money more cheaply than other countries can do it, why not do so and enable constructive schemes of work to be embarked upon? There is nothing financially unsound in that. Obviously the result of the expenditure will be to create capital assets which will be of definite and permanent value to the State.

I suppose it will be expected that we should indicate something of the nature of the schemes we have in mind. Personally I am interested in the fact that in the majority of towns in the Free State there are neither proper sewerage schemes nor adequate water supplies. I have no doubt whatever that the health and the social outlook of the people generally is being impaired by the absence of these amenities. We think that at the present time the State should embark upon the construction of such schemes in order, in the first instance, to provide employment, and, in the second instance, to remove the social consequences of their absence.

I understand that the Department of Agriculture is carrying out an afforestation programme directed towards the planting of the land now available for that purpose within twenty years. Surely it should be possible without any fundamental alteration in the plans to speed up the work and direct it so that it will be complete in five or six years and not twenty years, and thus provide immediate employment when it is wanted. Afforestation is a particularly useful kind of operation to deal with the unemployment situation, because by far the greater part of the total cost is represented by wages paid to the workers. The most obvious-method of providing work is in the construction of houses. We have had the housing problem of the Free State discussed here on many occasions, and I do not intend to go into details now. It seems to me that there is obviously something wrong when we have an outstanding need for 50,000 houses. We have most of the materials required to build these houses available, the idle men willing and able to work at building them, and yet nothing is being done. If there was, at the top, the necessary organising ability, the necessary vigorous leadership, I am quite certain means could be found to bring these idle men to work on the idle material to build the houses that are required. In the past, we have advocated the nationalisation of the business of building houses for the working classes. We think if there was established a State Housing Board, similar in constitution to the Shannon Electricity Supply Board, it could ensure, in the first place, a very considerable reduction in building costs by bulk purchase of supplies and uniform construction, and, in addition, it could encourage the manufacture of building materials within the country, and thus provide additional employment. We understand that the Government are hatching a new housing scheme. I do not know whether they will succeed in hatching it before the General Election or not, but if they do we will have an opportunity of considering their proposals.

Mr. Good

I hope the eggs are not of the kind the Deputy outlined.

Mr. Lemass

I have no hope that they will. The Minister for Local Government went to Holland and, if he produces a scheme for dealing with the housing problem here, on the lines which they found successful in Holland, he will have got good results from his journey. I am very doubtful about it, however, in consequence of what I called yesterday the constitutional laziness of that Department. I do not think anything is likely to emerge for a long time yet.

The Deputy, as a matter of fact, disclosed to me this morning a thing which I had never believed before. I always believed him to be a Dublin citizen who had learned to appreciate the virtues of citizenship in Dublin. If I were looking for the virtues of Dublin citizens I would go to the tenement houses and I would see there examples of charity and consideration for others unequalled in any other walk of life in any other country. The Deputy said there were people starving in one room——

Mr. Aiken

That is why you keep the tenements.

The President

I did not catch what the Deputy said.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not matter. The President must be allowed to proceed.

The President

The Deputy stated that there were people starving in one room in a tenement in Dublin while people in the same house were not aware of it, and if they were would not care. I would like the Deputy, in the interests of his citizenship, leaving out of sight altogether any political consideration, to withdraw that. It is a slander against the citizens of Dublin.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say it was the usual case but it has happened. I have personal knowledge of one case in which a woman died of starvation in a house and the other people did not know it.

Mr. Gorey

Long before they entered here. Long before this place became so free from sin that the purist could enter. What is the fact? Jumping off at once from Ringsend, the Deputy said the State should come in and do this business, but fearing that there would be any possible chance that we would be over there on the Government Benches: "It must be handed over to a board to run it. We are not going to be attacked, we are not going to be pilloried, we are not going to be saddled with the responsibility of running a business. No, we will hand it over to a board."

In any case, the speech was not one that would do credit to a debating society. It had neither breadth, vision, sense nor consistency about it. As far as his contribution towards the debate is concerned he has nothing to offer except one thing. If there is anything to be done by a Government in future we are going to see that there is one thing going to emerge from it, and that is that the Fianna Fáil Government will not be saddled; if it ever comes into existence it will have no responsibility for anything it does. It was a poor speech, and nobody knows it better than the Deputy.

Mr. Cassidy

I am glad this Vote for £300,000 has been introduced. At the same time, I am certainly of the opinion that the amount is altogether insufficient to cope with the unemployment problem. I think it is a very regrettable fact that up to the present, although the Government have been in office for approximately eight years, they have not been able to put forward a solution of this unemployment problem. After listening to the speech of the President this morning and noticing the flippant manner in which he treated the subject, I can quite realise why the Executive Council have not been able to formulate a solution for the problem. The Government seem to view this problem of unemployment as if it were a problem that should and always will exist. They do not seem to realise that it is a problem that could be solved if given proper consideration and if a sufficient sum of money were put up. If proper legislation were introduced in order to protect certain of our industries I believe that this problem could actually be solved. The offer of this £300,000 is like a ballad to the wandering moon. It is not going to solve the problem and the Government know it. I believe that they would not have introduced this Vote were it not for the fact that the Labour Party had tabled a motion calling on them to do something and also that the Government anticipates that there will be an early General Election, and they are afraid to face the people unless they do some little thing. I believe that even if this whole sum of £300,000 were devoted to the constituency I represent—County Donegal—it would not solve the unemployment problem there.

Mr. Good

Would the Deputy tell us what is his solution of the unemployment problem?

Mr. Cassidy

If the Deputy will be good enough to wait for a few moments I will outline how it could be solved as far as the constituency I represent is concerned. Unemployment is rampant throughout the county. I put down a question yesterday to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries pointing out the great poverty that existed in one of the congested areas, the Lower Rosses. I am glad he replied that something was going to be put into operation prior to Christmas, but that is only concerned with portion of the county while unemployment is rampant all over the county. Men are looking for work and are unable to find it. There are small farmers who, owing to the bad harvest, and fishermen, owing to the unsuccessful fishing season, are on the verge of poverty.

Deputy Good asked me what my solution of the unemployment problem is. I would point out to Deputy Good that even the British Government realised that as far as the congested districts were concerned special attention should be devoted to them. We find that the sum of 1½ million pounds with interest at the rate of 2¾ per cent. per annum, which was equivalent to £41,250 per year, was placed at the disposal of the Congested Districts Board to deal with the problem of unemployment and to foster industries in districts such as Galway, Mayo and Donegal. Not alone was that particular sum set aside, but cash and securities on two fishery loans, less by a sum of £20,000, to be administered by the Inspector of Fisheries, were also placed at the disposal of this Board, its share of the fund being about £84,000.

Mr. Good

Do I understand the Deputy's solution to be more money?

Mr. Cassidy

As far as Donegal is concerned it is a congested area and, instead of doing as was formerly done, giving it preferential treatment over the more favoured districts, we find at the present time it is actually getting worse treatment. Some time ago, I asked questions here in regard to the money that has been expended in each of the counties of the Saorstát by the Land Commission, and as far as County Donegal was concerned it was far down the list. Much more money had been spent in the more prosperous counties. The Forestry Department are spending tens of thousands of pounds each year, but up to the present time they have not spent £50 in the County of Donegal. I have come to the conclusion that sometimes the Government go out in their calculations of the counties in the Saorstát. Even under the Shannon Scheme the County Donegal was overlooked. I have written to the Secretary of the E.S.B. on the matter and he has replied that the cost of extending the scheme to Donegal would be too great at present. When the Government are prepared to devote a certain amount of money to the more prosperous counties in the Midlands, like Carlow, to subsidise a sugar-beet industry, why should they not give at least as good treatment to the poorer districts such as the congested areas in Donegal? It is recognised, as far as the sugar-beet factory is concerned, that it is only capable of supplying approximately one-seventh of the total sugar requirements of the Saorstát. Why should not the Government set up another factory, say in the County Donegal, and subsidise it, if not to the same extent, at least to some extent?

Deputy Good has asked what is my solution of the unemployment problem. I believe, as far as the Gaeltacht areas, at any rate, are concerned, that if the Government lived up to their responsibility and put into operation the Report of the Gaeltacht Commission they would have done a great deal to solve this problem. That Report recommended that schemes of afforestation should be set on foot, also schemes of reclamation, and that something should be done for rural industries, and when I asked in this House for a small grant of £600 or £700 to improve the Donegal homespun and handspun industry, which would have provided employment for 150 or 200 people, the Government could not see their way to give it. They are prepared to give in the City of Dublin £1,000 for the Dublin Zoological Gardens, £3,000 to the motor races in the Phoenix Park, £1,000 for the Abbey Theatre. At the same time they are not prepared to devote to a congested area in County Donegal this sum of money which would keep the native speakers at home and provide employment for them.

The President, in the course of his statement a few days ago, talked about the success of the loans that have been floated. He talked about the sales of savings certificates and he said that these things at least suggested that during this period Saorstát citizens, after providing for current consumption, have had an appreciable margin available for savings. Our national debt, he said, is comparatively low, and it has been devoted in the main to remunerative objects. He said our credit to-day stands as high as the credit of the strongest country in the world. Still, I would like to point out to the President that we have poverty, unemployment and emigration. The words of the poet have a direct bearing upon our present position:—

"Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey

Where wealth accumulates and men decay."

We have the President's statement on the one hand that the country is prosperous, that the National Loan stands high, that plenty of money is being spent on Savings Certificates.

On the other hand, we have a very different picture. At a meeting of the Donegal County Council last Tuesday Mr. M'Phelimy moved a resolution which was carried unanimously, and which called upon the Government to do something for the unemployed. In the course of his remarks, Mr. M'Phelimy said that unless relief work schemes were put into operation immediately, what was to become of those who were no longer able to obtain a livelihood from the land? Were they and their families going to lie down and die of hunger, whilst the boast went round that the credit of the country never stood so high? "What a mockery!" exclaimed Mr. M'Phelimy. Certainly it is a mockery. We were told here that the credit of the State is high, that things are prosperous, and that we have turned the corner; but we know the poverty that exists in the country, and we know that proper attention is not being paid to the various industries in the country. The President, replying to Deputy Lemass, talked about handing over certain things to a Board in order that this House would get rid of its responsibilities. Does the President realise that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries proposes to hand over at least the major portion of the fisheries section to a Board in order to avoid responsibility as far as this House is concerned, yet when suggestions are made by Deputies, possibly along the same lines, he terms the maker of these suggestions irresponsible?

I think this whole problem has not been given serious consideration. The £300,000 voted will mean, approximately, £10,000 or £12,000 to each constituency. Is that amount going to relieve unemployment? How many people will it employ? In my opinion it will employ very few. Deputies should direct their efforts towards making life less difficult for the poor. When relief schemes were previously carried out in Donegal by the Land Commission and other Departments they were not prepared to pay a living rate of wages. As far as relief schemes were concerned they were offering 24/- per week, and if in the course of a week there was bad weather for three days the employee got only 12/-. I suggest that under this relief scheme a proper rate of wages should be paid in Donegal—such a rate as is paid in Dublin, Meath, Louth or Tipperary. I hope the Dáil will not consider it has completed its duty by voting £300,000, and I hope that the problem of unemployment will not be allowed to remain unsolved for another six months or a year. I trust the Executive Council will formulate a scheme which will solve this problem. Piecemeal legislation of this description is not going to solve it. It will do a little, but more is required, and if the Government are sincere in their protestations of sympathy with the unemployed they will effect a permanent remedy.

Mr. Aiken

The speech of the President this morning was very characteristic. Within the last two days Deputies from all Parties in the House have been offering suggestions as to how the unemployment and distress that exist could be relieved. Deputy Lemass outlined the suggestions made by Fianna Fáil time and again for the permanent relief of distress. Instead of examining these suggestions as one would expect a statesman to do, the President assumed the cap and bells for a while in his usual style. Then he threw off the cap and bells and assumed a cowl and condemned Deputy Lemass for saying that there were cases of hardship and of suffering and starvation in Dublin which were unknown to the affected people's neighbours. Everyone knows that in a large city such as Dublin people have not the same intimate relations as they would have down the country. In the city neighbours do not know one another in the same way as in the country. The President said that Deputy Lemass mentioned that people in the tenements did not know who their neighbours were, and did not care. Deputy Lemass did not say that. He said that sometimes they did not know. We certainly know that the Government are aware of the existing distress in the tenements, and they do not care. What have they done to relieve it? The Department of Local Government, in the reports it receives, knows of the distress, and the Department of Justice, through its offices in the country, is aware of the existing conditions.

The Government are throwing £300,000 to half-starved people, just as in cold countries people throw something to the wolves to prevent them following and dragging them down. The Government know perfectly well that the people in this country are going to pull them from their position of authority, and they have thrown out this sop of £300,000 in order to stave off the evil day. The President extolled the virtues that exist in the tenements. He said greater virtues exist there than in any other portion of the city, or for that matter in any other country in the world. I suppose that is why he is keeping them there. It is the same old yarn of pro-Britishers in this country that British oppression was a visitation of God in order that we might spread the light of Christianity throughout the world.

I wish to goodness that people would take the trouble to examine that statement and find out what the Irish people who have been driven across to other countries have suffered, and ascertain to what extent they have spread the light of Christianity. I know certainly that the herding of people in tenements is not conducive to the higher virtues. To the extent that people are living clean and virtuous lives in the tenements, they are to be highly praised. But do not let the Government shelter behind those virtues. We know that as a result of the inhuman conditions under which people are living there are grave social evils obtaining as well as the exercise of the higher virtues. It is the duty of the Government, if they care anything about those people, to do something to take them out of those conditions— conditions which inevitably lead to the creation of social vices.

The President can always put on the cowl. It is about time that he stopped this hypocrisy and humbug and changed round to examine these things thoroughly as a statesman. I do not want anybody in the position of the President with the cap and bells or the cowl. I hope that before long there will be a man in the President's position who will have the ordinary decent Christian outlook on the conditions that obtain here in this country and a man who will do what he can to remedy them. The other day the President in his speech of sound commonsense, as he likes to call it, said that the position was good and our credit high. If he listened to the speeches of Cumann na nGaedheal, Fianna Fáil and Labour members here for the last few days he would know how good is the position throughout the country. If our credit is high, it is up to the Government of this country to use that credit in order to better the position in which the majority of the people of this country find themselves at the moment.

What use is this £300,000 at present? Absolutely no use to permanently cure distress. If this money had been used to help industry in the country and to provide a livelihood for those who are willing to engage in it, it might be helpful. We have said time and again that if the Government do not subsidise employment they will be forced to subsidise unemployment or idleness. If the Government had used this £300,000 a year or two ago in subsidising employment, in guaranteeing fair prices to the people who engage in agriculture or industry as a return for their work, there would have been no necessity to come here to-day and throw this sop of £300,000 to a half-starved people. A couple of years ago the Louth County Council wanted to spend a little over £10 on the growing of wheat. They wanted to give the farmers seed wheat at half price and the people there were willing to grow wheat on the small tillage farms. The Department of Agriculture refused to allow them to spend more than £l0. I believe that if they had given Louth County Council a couple of hundred pounds to spend in that way, it would be of more benefit to the county and to the labourers in the county than to give a couple of thousand pounds, now.

The Government are doing nothing whatsoever to keep the tillage of this country going. Anybody who has examined the figures with regard to tillage and population in this country, the output agriculturally, and the acreage under tillage for the last 80 or 90 years, will know that the number of acres under tillage bears a direct relationship to the number of people in the country. Sixty years ago there were in the County Louth 120,000 people, and something like 124,000 acres were then under tillage in that county. To-day there are 62,000 acres under tillage in County Louth, and the number of people in the county is 61,000. Deputies will notice that both the acreage under tillage and the population have been cut down by half in that period. We know that the number of people who have disappeared from the Twenty-Six Counties in the last eight years is something like 300,000. The number of acres under tillage has gone down in the same period by 300,000.

We have outlined, time and again, schemes for the encouragement of tillage in the Twenty-Six Counties. We say that it would be much better to spend money in those ways than occasionally to give sums of £300,000 in doles. A proper system for the encouragement of tillage would do considerably more good to the people. We know that from a national point of view tillage would pay the country, and it is up to us to see that it would pay the individual farmer. We know also that it would pay this country to keep at home the money we are sending out for industrial products, and it is our business to see that it would pay individual agriculturists and industrialists to produce these goods. We are sending out £61,000,000 a year to industrialists and agriculturists in other countries for things most of which we could produce here at home. It is time that we started doing so.

There is no use in my wasting time in showing what might be done in my constituency through some of this relief grant. We know that this grant or dole has been thrown out by the Government in order to create a scramble for it. If I thought I would be listened to I would suggest schemes for my constituency. I would outline schemes for draining, housing, sewerage and waterworks, and for the development of fisheries. These schemes would do some good. But I know that the Government would not listen to me, and I am not going to waste my time or my breath in talking about them.

In one way it is a good indication that this grant has been increased this year. The Government know that the people are getting more tired of them, and that is the reason why they are increasing this grant. We do not thank them for it because they have been taking something like £23,000,000 a year from consumers and producers in this country. It is the people who will have to pay for this grant. We do not thank the Government. It is not their money. It belongs to the people of this country, and we are glad that the people are getting a little of it back. Why, even Scarface. Al Capone gives something back to the people. He is feeding something like 1,100 people in Chicago at present. I think we need not be more thankful to the Government than the people of Chicago are to Scarface Capone.

Dr. White

Speaking as one of the henchmen of the Government, as one sitting on the back benches of Cumann na nGaedheal referred to by Deputy Cooney last night, I wish to applaud the Government, and clap them on the back and say, "Well done." I say "Well done," for having allocated £300,000 towards providing employment for our fellow-countrymen and countrywomen in the Saorstát. Like my colleague, Deputy Davis, I came to the conclusion, after listening to many of the speakers on the Fianna Fáil Benches, that they were attempting to pass a vote of censure on the Government for having given this relief grant. If some people from other countries were in the public gallery and were accompanied by some Deputy and asked him what all the rumpus was about, and the Deputy told them that the Government were endeavouring to do a good act for the unemployed in the Saorstát, I fancy that these foreigners would be very much surprised, and would come to the conclusion that the Irish are undoubtedly a droll people. I know that some unemployment undoubtedly exists in the Saorstát, and that this £300,000 is only a temporary method of giving employment to the people. I have been very anxiously listening to the various speeches from the Opposition and hoping that some of the speakers would suggest, not a temporary expedient to overcome this problem, but a permanent cure. I knew perfectly well, however, that no Deputy, whether on the Government or on the Opposition Benches, could suggest a modus operandi for the permanent cure of the problem of unemployment. This question of unemployment is common to all countries. Only in to-day's papers we read that in Germany, and, I think, in Holland, they are trying to solve a similar problem to that which the Government here have been dealing with. I admit that the Government have not been able to solve it yet, but they are handling it and have handled it in a very masterly way since they came into office. One of the Opposition Deputies remarked that the Cosgravian Government was the hoariest Government in Europe. I admit that. The Cosgravian Government has been in office now since 1922. I think that is a great tribute to the Government, and it shows the good sense of the people in keeping them in office.

I did not intend to take part in this debate, but after listening to the very extravagant, and I might say wild, speeches made by many Opposition Deputies I was forced to say a few words. Deputy Little, referring to Waterford City, said that many school children there were starving and that it was killing their teachers to try and teach them. I bow to no man in my knowledge of my native city, and I say that, whilst there may be some children whom it is difficult to teach, it is not due to lack of nourishment. I must say this for the Irish people generally, that if there is scarcity of food in the larder, they will go on short rations themselves sooner than see their children on short rations. Thanks to the paternal interest that the Government takes in the people, we have our child welfare clinics in Waterford city as in other cities. I am in daily contact with various classes of people in Waterford and I venture to say that the juvenile population were never in better health or better nourished than they are at present. All I can say about Deputy Little's remarks as regards Waterford City and the school children there is that they were illjudged and ill-advised.

Another point made by one of the speakers was that ex-soldiers get the preference when public works are being undertaken. For my part, I make no apology for that. I think that the men who saved this country in 1922 and 1923 from becoming a smouldering heap of ashes deserve well of the country and should be remembered by the Government. Furthermore, some Deputies stated that single men should not get preference. From my knowledge of public affairs I find that rather frequently unmarried men have as much responsibility as married men. The father and mother may have died and the eldest son may have to support the younger members of the family. Therefore, it is not right to say that unmarried men should be cut out altogether as far as public employment is concerned.

Unemployment in the Saorstát can be attributed to various causes. We have had the European war and we have had our own little war; we have had a general slump in prices all over the world, and we have had the unfavourable weather conditions of the past year. All these things taken together undoubtedly were very important factors in producing unemployment. As I said, unemployment is world-wide with very few exceptions. I agree with the President when he said that we have turned the corner. I believe that we have turned the corner. On the other hand, I believe that Governments will always be faced with a certain amount of unemployment. No statesmen in Europe, America or anywhere else have succeeded in solving the problem permanently.

Mr. Fahy

What about France?

Dr. White

France is the exception that proves the rule. As to the question of tariffs and free trade, America which is one of the most highly-protected countries in the world, and which holds more than half of the available gold in the world, at the present time, I understand, has an unemployment roll of about 7,000,000. We also find from the daily Press that in cities like Chicago and New York the wealthier citizens are, as they should, coming to the rescue of the poorer citizens and providing food and clothing for them.

Reference was also made by Deputy Little to housing conditions in Waterford. Undoubtedly the housing conditions there, as in Dublin or other cities and towns, are not what they should be. So far back as 1922 I was one of a deputation from the Waterford Corporation which interviewed the late President Griffith and President Cosgrave, who was then Minister for Local Government, with reference to this housing question, and since then we have built a good many houses in Waterford. Ever since then the Waterford Corporation have continued to avail of the various grants and loans given by the Government for housing, and with the exception of Dublin, I think Waterford City has availed more fully of housing subsidies than any other city or town in the country. The Corporation have always been alive to the necessity of providing houses for the people, and they have availed of the subsidies and erected more houses, perhaps, than any other city or town, with the exception of Dublin.

As one speaker said, the various imperfections of housing and drainage and water supplies in the provincial towns in Ireland are matters which have their origin in the past and cannot be remedied in five or ten years. It will take time. As one of the back benchers on this side of the House I object to the phrase, often heard here from the Opposition, about the failure of the Government themselves to do this and to do that. I suggest that the Government have not failed in doing the best possible things that could be done generally for the people of Saorstát Eireann. If we had the help of the Opposition in 1922 and 1923, when we were endeavouring to build with one hand and fight with the other, we would have been able to use the two hands in construction, and I venture to say that if that were so we would have twice the work done now as far as housing and other things are concerned.

I am not going to weary the Dáil further. I merely want to protest against some of the phrases used by Deputy Cooney so far as the Cumann na nGaedheal Party are concerned. We are a generous Party. We are a big Party, and we do not intend, as Deputy Cooney seems to think we do, to use this £300,000 for political motives. We intend, each one of us, to secure as much as we can of this grant for our constituents, in order to do good to our people and to relieve unemployment.

Mr. Corkery

It strikes me as very strange to think that every year we have to have a grant to relieve unemployment in the Free State. In the old days of Sinn Féin we were told that the 32 counties of Ireland were capable of maintaining 20,000,000 people. Now, in the Twenty-Six Counties, with less than 3,000,000, we have to have a grant every year to relieve unemployment and to keep the people from starving. Why is that necessary? We were told also that we are an agricultural country, yet Canada and Australia and several other countries are growing wheat to feed us. China and America, Serbia and Russia, Belgium and Denmark are supplying us with bacon, and still we have unemployment here. Is there any reason why there should be unemployment here?

A country that is capable, or was supposed to be capable, of feeding 20,000,000 people, nine or ten years ago, when some of the Ministers opposite were patriots before they began to find that they had an Empire instead of country, is not capable of feeding 3,000,000 now. What is the cause of the change? This Government has been in office for the past eight years; our population has decreased in eight years, land has gone out of tillage, and even though land has gone out of tillage and we have more grass we have less cows to feed now. It was the policy of the British in the past, in this country, to produce beef for the English market; it is the policy of the Minister for Agriculture to-day neither to produce beef nor to have the land tilled.

Undoubtedly, this grant is necessary at the present time, but if the Government had been doing their duty and spending money wisely, and if they thought more of Ireland and less of the Empire, there would be no need now to be looking for a grant. This country is capable of supporting an increased population, and supporting them in the way they are entitled to be supported. There are undoubtedly people hungry and people out of work to-day, and things are no better in my own constituency than in any other constituency. We have towns without water. There is no water supply in Newmarket; in Millstreet the sewerage has been condemned for years; Kanturk and Macroom are in the same position, not perhaps so bad but very near it. Most of the villages are without a water supply, and, of course, the sanitation is very primitive. If the Government had been doing their duty, as they told the people of the country they would when they told them how happy they would be if this Free State were accepted, they would not find now, after eight years, that they had nothing to fall back upon only what a Deputy said, trying to build up the country with one hand and fight with the other.

There has been no fighting in this country for the last seven years; still the population is reducing every day. There are a lot of things that could be done to improve matters. We have too many highly paid officials. It might be possible for an Empire to pay those but a country like Ireland cannot afford to go on in this way. Things are going from bad to worse, and the Government are making no effort. There is simply this dole every year, and Deputies from different Parties will try to get as much as they can out of it for their own constituents. As far as I can see the conditions are practically the same all over the Twenty-Six Counties. This thing will go on while the present Government are in office; they are not doing their duty. Even though some Deputies profess that they are, they know in their hearts that they are not. They are making no effort whatever to build up the country. Any industries we have are being gradually wiped out. Our flour is milled in Liverpool while our flour mills here are idle. Surely it is not too late for them to save the flour mills and see that our people are employed here at home, give up looking for a grant, see that the taxpayers' money is used in a proper way, and give everybody in the country what he is entitled to, namely, a decent living in it.

Mr. Everett

While I do not agree that this Vote of £300,000 is at all sufficient to meet the distress which prevails at present it is, of course, better than nothing, and in regard to its allocation in each county we can only suggest to the Minister what, in our opinion, are the best ways of spending it. Other Deputies have put before the House particulars of the various works which could usefully be carried out in their own constituency. I, therefore, desire to point out that in my constituency we have exceptional distress. That has been admitted by the Minister for Local Government, and we have a large number of able-bodied in receipt, not of the dole, but of home assistance.

The Minister pointed out that in Wicklow 415 able-bodied persons are receiving relief, but that, of course, only represents the most deserving cases that come before the Board of Health. This year the Board expended in home assistance the sum of £20,000, of which £15,000 went to giving help to able-bodied men who are unable to procure work, but are willing to do it. In Wicklow our flour mills have been closed. I do not desire to put all the blame on the Government for that, but I blame them for not protecting the flour mills by preventing the dumping of foreign flour. I can give credit to the Government and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for having assisted the mines in Avoca, and I do not blame them for the fact that they are now closed, and that the large number of men who were employed there formerly are now out of work.

Then again owing to the closing down of the Kynoch factory many people who came to Arklow when work was to be had remained there, are now idle and are dependent either on the charity of the public or on assistance received from public bodies. It is the duty of the Government to come to the assistance of public bodies and enable them to give work to the unemployed. Many of us who are on public boards find that year after year we are doing what the Government should really do, namely, giving assistance to men who are unable to get work. Recently we formulated schemes in connection with the county council and we agreed that if the Government were prepared to give £10,000 we would be prepared to raise another £10,000 in order to provide works of public utility. Each year about this period we are faced with the problem of providing work so that no man with a family would have to go without his Christmas dinner, and year after year we have raised money by way of loans to provide unemployed men with work for a fortnight at Christmas. In cases where such schemes as those for the provision of houses and sewerage are necessary an immediate grant should be given to public bodies so that they can open up quarries, and get the material for such works ready for use at the proper time.

I can, unfortunately, say that the worst housing conditions in the Twenty-Six Counties exist in Bray. The Commissioner there is, no doubt, doing his best to improve them. Then in Wicklow and other places there is the threat of coast erosion. The Coast Erosion Committee have made some valuable suggestions and on their advice certain work is being carried out. We suggest that power should be given to the committee in conjunction with public bodies to give grants to stop coast erosion pending the final report of the committee. The Minister for Local Government pointed out that, with a view to meeting the demands of various Deputies, he intends to bring in a new Bill to give power to public bodies to raise a rate for sewerage, water-works and sanitation and to spread it over a larger area than it is now spread over. I have been opposed to that system on previous occasions, and I say again that it is not fair that a progressive public body who have carried out sanitation and sewerage schemes by way of local charge, and who are now paying off their loans, should be put to the expense of paying for other areas in addition to their own. I am not sure that the public bodies will agree to that suggestion, especially in view of the depression in agriculture and the fact that any increase in rates would fall heavily even on the unemployed, because an increase of rates means an increase of rent. It would also hit the farmer, who is not being provided with social services in proportion to his rates.

In my area the farmer is only offered 6/- a barrel for his oats, and is unable to sell it, and owing to the prevalence of low prices there is increased unemployment among farm labourers. In regard to housing, I contend that we are beginning at the wrong end. We have medical officers of health, nurses and county tuberculosis officers, but when patients are treated in sanatoriums for six months on the recommendation of the medical officer they are sent back to their hovels where the disease originated. In my opinion, where you have such bad housing conditions it is only waste of money to spend it on medical officers and nurses, and until we grapple with the problem of housing I see very little hope of improving the health of the people. When houses were washed away in Wicklow, and when it was sought to erect new ones the moneyed classes in a certain area were able to pull strings with the Local Government Department to prevent such houses being built. What confidence, therefore, can we have in that Ministry or in certain officials there? When an inspector went down to hold an inquiry he said that the only reason that he could not allow houses for the workers to be erected in a particular field was that the railway company might at some future date run a railway through that field, although we know that at the present time the railway companies are dismissing employees wholesale.

We have, as I have said, very acute depression in our county. Instead of 400 men being unemployed, as mentioned by the Minister, my calculation is, judging by the number of applications that come before the Board of Health, that we have over 2,000 unemployed. The Minister mentioned 415 able-bodied men receiving relief. If it has been found that a man receives money from a charitable organisation the Board is unable to help him. The Board of Health is not in a position, although a man is destitute, to give him any assistance because, as I have stated, the Board have underestimated their requirements. No one is more responsible for that than the Minister for Local Government. When the Board of Health made an underestimate for the purpose of giving home help, the Minister's attention was drawn to the fact in a written communication and he replied stating that he had no responsibility in the matter.

We have over three hundred unemployed in Bray, two hundred in Arklow, two hundred in Wicklow, and five or six hundred in Blessington and Baltinglass in the rural areas. There is dire poverty in these districts. I do not say that anybody will die of hunger, but great distress exists owing to unemployment and the bad prices for agricultural produce. I suggest to the Minister that an effort should be made to open up the tourist road in Wicklow, a suggestion which has been already made by the local public bodies—the Wicklow Urban Council, the Arklow Urban Council and the County Council. They unanimously agreed on that scheme and they are prepared to pay fifty-fifty of the expenditure. It would be a great means of relieving the distress caused by unemployment in these areas and also in the rural areas. A scheme might also be started to prevent coast erosion. That would protect various valuable properties and would give much-needed employment. As other Deputies have made claims for their areas I must say that as regards my area exceptional distress prevails there. I am not going to say that we are near a general election because this grant is given as I believe that if we were approaching a general election the Government would give a much larger amount than is being voted at present. We know that from experience.

I hope that the Government will not be influenced by any political considerations in distributing this money, but that each county in which exceptional distress prevails will be dealt with on its merits. I have no desire to refer to the conditions in Russia, as some Deputies have done. My whole concern is for the conditions in my own constituency. They are of more interest to me than what is happening anywhere else. If we find out what is happening in our own country we will get down to facts. The unemployment problem is not a problem for any one Party. It is a problem that will require the co-operation and assistance of each and every man in the country. I do not charge the Government with the sole responsibility for unemployment, but I do say that they have been trying to shut their eyes to the legitimate appeals made by various Deputies who tried to put before them the state of unemployment in the country.

The attitude of responsible Ministers during this debate has been to try to show that unemployment is not so bad, and that it exists only on a small scale, and that this £300,000 will be able to deal with it. I say it will only go a small way to deal with the large number of unemployed in the various districts. If the Government had any illusions on that matter I hope they have been removed by the speeches which have been delivered during this discussion. I hope that even at the eleventh hour they will do something, instead of trying to score off their opponents, as the President tried to score off Deputy Lemass owing to a remark which he made. This is a matter in which no one Deputy should try to score off another. It is a more serious matter than politics. Unless all parties come together and make a combined effort, I see no hope that any party will solve the unemployment problem in this country.

Mr. J.J. Byrne

As very few Deputies in the back benches on this side of the House have spoken in this debate, I think it might be well if I took this opportunity to express the views of these back benchers. In the first place, I would like to say that the insinuation has been made from the opposite side of the House that the Government back-benchers have been exerting considerable pressure in the formulation of the present policy of the Executive. As one of the back-benchers I think it is only right to say that no pressure has come from the Cumann na nGaedheal Party on the Executive, good, bad or indifferent. We feel, sitting behind the Executive here, that the Vote which the Government has introduced cannot be criticised. We feel that it is a sound Vote and the proof of the soundness of the Vote is shown by the very fact that no party in the House has the courage to go into the division lobby against it.

A great attempt has been made to magnify the existing situation both in the country and in the city, but the Minister for Local Government, in the course of the debate, reviewed by means of the amount of home assistance in the country, the measure of poverty at present existing. As a result of that review the facts which he laid before the House showed that the condition of the country economically at the present time is even better than it was last year. He said that with the exception of three counties, one of which I regret to say is that represented by Deputy Everett, the actual amount paid in assistance this year was smaller than the amount last year. One fact we are up against is this: No matter what effort the Government may make to develop Irish industry, to improve the economic position of the country, to raise the standard of living or otherwise, it is met with a fanatical criticism from the opposite side of the House. We had in the past few days an exhibition of that in the debate on the Drumm Battery, from the official Opposition Party. I feel sure that when the country judges the attitude of the Opposition Party on that very question, that Party will realise that they have made a very serious mistake. We have had the same attitude on the question of building up the beet sugar industry. It was according to them a hopeless scheme whereas, in fact, it was one of the best schemes in the whole of Europe. No matter what is done by the Government Party, nothing is right simply because Deputies on the opposite side have not been behind the introduction of a particular measure.

There is one thing I have noticed and it is that when we get down to facts and figures Fianna Fáil do not want to hear them. I have come to the conclusion that they hate facts and figures much the same as the devil hates holy water. When the speech made by the leader of the Opposition is boiled down, what does it all come to? What constructive arguments came from the opposite side? They made two suggestions—one, a policy of protection, and the other a national scheme of housing. Deputy de Valera, to my mind, was the only member on the opposite side who tried to deal with this question in a constructive way. He made certain statements that perhaps it might be well, in the interests of the country, to refer to. The first was that the output of national wealth has gone down by five or six millions per annum. Is there any justification for that statement? The Deputy did not quote a single fact or figure to support it. Why did not the Deputy take the trouble to look up the figures before he made such a statement? I can say that the national output of wealth in the last few years, far from having gone down, has considerably increased. Our total trade in 1925 was £103,000,000; in 1926, £104,000,000; in 1927, £105,000,000; in 1928, £107,000,000; and in 1929, £110,000,000. These figures show an output of wealth, despite the general fall in prices in four years, of roughly 7¾ millions. A responsible leader like Deputy de Valera should take a little care to look up facts and figures before making the wild statements he made to the House. If the Deputy looked at the other side of the account he would find an equally satisfactory picture. He would find that not alone have we increased our exports—as the President pointed out we are the only one out of eight countries in Europe that has succeeded in increasing our exports—and so increased our annual output of wealth, but our imports have also been considerably reduced.

Mr. de Valera

Have we increased production?

Mr. Byrne

Undoubtedly these figures show an increase in production. Taking these figures at their face value we have not alone increased production, but we have considerably increased it. Taking into account the fall in price levels, in the price the farmer receives for his goods, the fall that everyone engaged in production is receiving for his goods, there cannot be the slightest doubt but that the productive wealth of the country has been considerably increased, and is steadily increasing.

Mr. Maguire

Not amongst the farming class.

Mr. Byrne

I am dealing with the figures and not with any particular class. It is obvious that the great producer of wealth in the country is the farmer, and I leave it to the House to take what inference it likes from the figures I have given.

Mr. Maguire

If the Deputy confines himself to farming produce he will find that he is quite wrong.

Mr. Byrne

No matter what I confine myself to I will still be bound by the figures. The Deputy knows quite well that he cannot get away from the figures I have given. If he can dispute those figures let him do so. If he cannot, let him accept the figures, and that is the end of the question. As the President very rightly pointed out, steady and regular progress is being made. When we point to the reduction in the adverse trade balance, Deputy de Valera says that is no good: that it would be a perfectly satisfactory thing provided the output in wealth was at the same time increasing. I have demonstrated to any fairminded man listening to me that beyond yea or nay the output of wealth in this country has not alone increased but is steadily increasing.

Mr. Moore

I suggest that we are not as particular about order to-day as we were yesterday.

The Deputy has plenty of scope to do that without going back on what we discussed yesterday.

Mr. Byrne

I will not refer to the question of protection. I will give the example of Australia, where the £ is only worth 18/9, and which has a National Debt of over £400,000,000. That should be a warning to Deputy de Valera. Turning to the question of unemployment, I will analyse the various arguments adduced from the other side, and I intend to deal with them. I hold in my hand a cutting from a New York newspaper, in which there is a picture of a crowd of men seeking work, and in their caps there is a motto with the words, "One week one dollar." That means that in New York the workman is ready to do any work for one dollar a week, and one knows the rate of wages paid in New York and paid here.

We are told that when dealing with unemployment we are not to look at the conditions of the workers of other countries. I suppose we are to close our eyes to the fact that with the exception to which Deputy Fahy referred, there is scarcely a country in the world that has not got a grievous unemployment problem. We all know that there are 3,000,000 unemployed in Germany; something like 3,000,000 in the United States, the wealthiest country in the world; 3,000,000 unemployed in England, and, if we take the north-east corner of our own country, there are 90,000 unemployed there.

Facts and figures were given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in reply to the questions asked by Deputy Lemass, showing that the official number of our unemployed is 20,000. Of course, like everything else, Deputies on the Opposition side of the House will not accept these facts and figures. I do not know how, when wealthy countries, have the problem of unemployment, this country could be without a similar problem. Speaking with some experience of conditions across the Channel, I can say that there are twice as many unemployed in Liverpool and Glasgow as in the whole of the Free State. Yet we are to be absolutely free from unemployment, while other countries are suffering much more severely from the effects of that evil. I think we should look at this matter from the point of view of reasonable people. We should consider in view of the difficulties the Government has that, undoubtedly, they have dealt with the problem wisely and well. Far from any pressure being put on the Executive by the back-benchers of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, the back-benchers have stood whole-heartedly behind the Government on this question.

In conclusion I hope that when this Vote is being allotted due consideration will be given to the necessities of the City of Dublin. As the House is no doubt aware, last year it passed the Dublin Poor Relief Bill, which imposes a very heavy penalty on the ratepayers of the city. Under that Bill money is being paid out, and it stands there as an index figure for the Minister or the Department that will be handling this money, so that I hope particular attention may be paid to the needs of the workless in the city. Deputy O'Kelly drew attention to that need, and I am in thorough agreement with him. I heard from all quarters demands for the farming community, for sanitation, for reclamation and for reafforestation, but, with the exception of Deputy O'Kelly, I never heard from the opposite benches a voice raised on behalf of the workers in the cities and towns. I earnestly hope that when this Vote is being distributed the City of Dublin will receive the share to which it is justly entitled.

Dr. Hennessy

It has been said that Ireland should be feeding 20,000,000 of people. We all read of the time when Ireland had a population of 8,000,000. It is now deplored that we have not a population of 8,000,000. I would like to know if the people who regret the time when we had a population of 8,000,000 have any idea of how these people were housed, fed and clothed. It is a common thing, even yet, to see the remains of 40 or 50 hovels around what was a cesspool. People who remember these houses when occupied say they were without a chimney or a window. That was the position of our population when we had 8,000,000. If we cannot do better than that I think, at least, we need not deplore the days when we had a teeming population. The mentality shown in this discussion on unemployment is characteristic. It is the same inside and outside the House. The one object, especially on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party, is to show what callous blackhearted people the members on the Government side are: that they are without any feeling, that they are particularly malignant, and are not happy except when they are doing something cruel and some great injustice to the people that they should be serving. I listened to Deputy Little the other evening giving us to understand that there was a new era coming, and that that was the era of Fianna Fáil Christianity. Deputy Aiken, in to-day's discussion, referred to Christianity. Well, I am not optimistic about Fianna Fáil Christianity. It is not so long ago since this country had an experience of some of the ideals which the Fianna Fáil Party have about Christianity, so that I hope, for the good of this country, it will not develop.

I do not think the Fianna Fáil Party are deceiving the unemployed as much as they believe they are. About twelve months ago, when I was leaving this House, an incident occurred which, to my mind, was instructive, and showed the rather accurate gauge the unemployed have of the Fianna Fáil Party. Hearing the Fianna Fáil Party speak here one would think they emptied their pockets into the pockets of the poor and unemployed. However, I happened to be walking behind three members of the Fianna Fáil Party who met an unemployed man, and he shook a tin can in front of them. However, he drew a blank. I came on then, and they never looked at me as they passed by, though the tears bedimmed their eyes. I was glad in one way that this man was not deceived. I think a lot of time was wasted in this House, especially as it cost the ratepayers a lot of money, in trying to deceive the unemployed and the Irish people generally. One would think that this £300,000 for the relief of unemployment was the only thing the Government ever did for unemployment. They forget the amount of money in the way of grants that is given for house-building, for the making of roads, and for several other purposes. I think the Government has done very well, and I believe that the day the Fianna Fáil Party will come in, if they put some of their economic schemes into force, that it will be a very bad day for the people of Ireland, and that they will get an opportunity of regretting sorely the day they changed the good Government for the very bad one.

Mr. Maguire

I was rather struck by the statement made by Deputy Dr. White some time ago. He said the great danger which he saw was in the event of any distinguished strangers being present during this discussion they would get a bad impression from the criticisms offered from these benches as to the Government grant of £300,000 for unemployment. That mentality displayed by Deputy Dr. White is typical of the Cumann na nGaedheal policy and is the distinctive difference between their point of view and ours. Their vision is entirely overshadowed by that wonderful regard for what outsiders and foreigners think about us. I think I may safely say that we on these benches are guided by what are the wants of the people.

Dr. White

On a point of order, what I wanted to convey and what I thought I succeeded in conveying was that if any distinguished strangers were here listening to the Opposition speaking they would think that the Government had done something atrocious instead of conferring a benefit on the people of Ireland by giving to the unemployed £300,000.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Maguire

Distinguished strangers may not be convinced that the Government were conferring a benefit on the people. Again, he went on to refer to the manner in which the Government had dealt with this question of the unemployed and described it as a masterly handling. How has it been dealt with?

Emigration has relieved this country of unemployment to the extent of over 20,000 a year for the last eight years and, in addition to that, many people who are engaged as small farmers in the country are reduced to a state of semi-want in their homes. Many people are officially returned to the State as definitely unemployed. This, then, is the masterly handling of the question of unemployment that Dr. White compliments himself and his Party for. I think he might better describe it by saying it looked very much more like the stepmotherly handling of so important a question and not the masterly handling.

The Minister said the other day, when speaking of the necessity for this Vote, that it was contingent on two factors, one the bad season and, secondly, that there would be probably a shortage of money this year from America as a result of the depression in that country. That gives us to understand upon what important foundation the whole economic condition of this country rests. One bad harvest is able to reduce a big section of the farmers to the verge of want. They must necessarily depend on a grant from the Government to keep them in the ordinary requirements of life. Secondly, we are depending to a further extent on gifts from America. Therefore we can say that part of the economic foundation of this State is based on charity which we receive from other countries. That is hardly a masterly handling of affairs, nor is it sound handling. It has been urged, in this House from these benches that the Government's attitude has been wrong economically, that they should face this problem by utilising the resources of this country by making the people of the country dependent on production rather than on the good will of outsiders. That policy has been laughed to ridicule. It has constantly been made a gibe of Cumann na nGaedheal, particularly the front benchers. This morning we had displayed from the Leader of that Party how he visualises the important question of unemployment throughout the country and the whole question of economics.

I assert that this suggestion of putting £300,000 now to relieve the immediate distress in the country is entirely inadequate, and by no means a practical solution of the problem itself. If we assume for a moment that the result of the bad harvest this year is one of the causes for the relief grant and that that loss at the very minimum is £2,000,000 and assume that sums we have received from America in the past are estimated at £2,000,000 more and that that sum will be reduced by half, we have therefore a shortage of income in the country this year in the two causes which the Minister states are responsible for having this grant at all of £3,000,000 and to meet that he suggests a grant of £300,000.

Clearly Deputy Byrne when he stated that this party did not like figures or statistics was wrong. I say that figures are just the thing that his party do not like and must always face up to. Deputy Byrne in proving, as his party always insists upon proving, that this country is prosperous, and that there is hardly any country in the world as prosperous as we are despite the fact that we are dependent for our very existence on the money received from abroad, went on to give figures to show that our position had improved. He did not give any figures to show in what department the improvement had taken place. He did not quote the staple industry of the country, which is agriculture, from which source only economic improvement in this country can really be gauged. If he did he would have shown that production there had very considerably decreased. I suppose the increase in business can be traced to Cork, where they have been fortunate enough to have an important, factory set going. Every sensible man knows that however big the export from there or however prosperous it may make the City of Cork, it is no real indication of the prosperity of this country. The only indication of the general prosperity in this country can be found in an improvement in the agricultural output and in the prices of agricultural produce. I state without hesitation, knowing my part of the country well, that there is grave need for relief in that county.

The Government have been forced this year, as a result of the damage done by abnormal flooding, to spend a certain amount of money on improvements there, but I have got no information that they have taken into consideration the appeals that have come from small farmers who have lost their crops, including their hay, the food to keep their few animals going during the winter months, and consequently will lose their animals. No provision has been made to meet their difficulties as a result of the flooding that has taken place. If the breadwinner in such a case is not strong enough to avail of the work that will be provided as a result of portion of this money being spent in the county, what is to become of his family? The one thing that always comes up is that this is a wealthy country, and our credit on the Stock Exchange is high. That leaves us in a position that we can borrow money on easy terms, and appear in the eyes of the world as a wealthy and substantial State. If that is so, and it is so, it is the result of economic pressure which forces our people to work under conditions that do not give them a decent standard of living, and in times of depression, such as we are confronted with now, and is more acute perhaps than in other years, it is not the act of a Christian people to hoard wealth to that extent while many of our people are left without food or the means of maintaining their families.

I assert again that this sum of money is inadequate. Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies here in the House will at least agree with me that if the demands from Leitrim are to be fairly met, a third of this £300,000 would be inadequate to deal with the problem as it exists in some parts, of the County Leitrim. In Leitrim, and in other counties like it, there has been little land for sub-division, and consequently no improvement at all in the economic position of the small farmers. Other counties have been more favoured. There has been land available for distribution, and improvement, to some extent, has taken place, but in County Leitrim there has been practically none of that, with the result that the position of the small farmer there has undergone no improvement whatever. Some scheme for the drainage of bog-land and the reclamation and drainage of waste lands, and the application of the forestry scheme in a large way is necessary in County Leitrim, if there is to be any improvement. I am sure that the Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies will agree as to the necessity of that. I realise that the £300,000 is not adequate to meet the requirements of the country, and if the Government thinks it is going to solve the problem they might as well leave it alone.

Dáil Éireann debate - Friday, 28 Nov 1930