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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Dec 1930

Vol. 36 No. 8

Money Resolution. - Unemployment Insurance Bill, 1930—Money Resolution.

I move:—

Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfaí amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas costaisí ar bith fé n-a raghfar chun éifeacht do thabhairt d'Acht ar bith a rithfear sa tSiosón so chun na nAchtanna um Arachas Díomhaointis, 1920 go 1926, do leasú maidir le méid na síntiús is iníoctha fé sna hachtanna san agus chun Ailt 12 den Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, do leasú maidir leis an leithreas-i-gcabhair a luaidhtear san Alt san 12.

That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of any expenses incurred in carrying into effect any Act of the present Session to amend the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1926, with respect to the amount of the contributions payable under the said Acts and to amend section 12 of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, with respect to the appropriation-in-aid mentioned in the said section 12.

I do not know if it is on this motion that the Dáil would consider the amount which the Oireachtas would be asked to pay. During the course of the Second Reading discussion the Minister gave an explanation concerning the effect of the alterations in the finances of the scheme upon the amount to be contributed by the Exchequer to the scheme and to the cost of the administration of the scheme which did not appear accurate. I made an examination of the report of his statement as contained in the official reports, and it is not clear now. It seems to me that the Exchequer is going to be relieved to an extent greater than that indicated by the Minister, in his speech or by the President in his speech on the day on which we reassembled. If I am incorrect I want to be shown where I am incorrect.

At the present time the taxpayer has to contribute to the Unemployment Insurance Fund a certain sum calculated upon the contribution income of that fund and averaging about a quarter million pounds. As against that the Exchequer receives from the Fund an amount equal to one-tenth of its revenue, which averages about £120,000, the balance of the cost of administration being paid by the Exchequer, and that being about £20,000. In other words, the taxpayer paid £250,000, less £120,000, which is £130,000 plus £20,000. That is £150,000 altogether. Now the contributions to the fund will be reduced by £64,000, which brings it to £186,000, and in addition there will be drawn from the Fund for administration purposes, not £120,000 as heretofore, but £136,000, bringing the net contribution from the State to £46,000. It seems to me that the taxpayer, under that system, gains not merely the £64,000 which was mentioned in the President's speech, but also the £16,000 hitherto paid by the Exchequer towards the cost of administration, which it is intended in future to have paid out of the Fund itself. I want to be shown where that is wrong. The Minister says I am wrong, but he has not made clear to me where I am wrong.

I do not care how the moneys were got; the State used to pay £140,000. It paid in allied services something every year. That something varied. It was the difference between the £140,000 which ordinarily was required to run the insurance scheme and whatever amount was brought in by a certain fraction of the total Fund. That difference sometimes amounted to £30,000 and sometimes to £50,000. The State paid X, and X plus Y amounted to £140,000. Y was a certain fraction of the Fund to which the State subscribed. The State always subscribed more than Y. If I made a bargain with the Fund and said "I will meet the expenses of the Fund every year and pay nothing to the Fund," the taxpayer would be saving, because the taxpayer's contribution at the moment by way of addition to the Fund amounts to more in the year than the total administrative expenses of the Fund. Therefore, you can say that the State was bearing the entire administrative expenses of the Fund. Part was a direct grant in respect of allied services, but more than the total administrative expenses was subscribed to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. The State used to pay £141,000. As it is now set out, it will pay in this year, if the income of the Fund remains exactly the same, £136,000. We expect the income of the Fund to increase. We calculated on a slight rise, and. we believe that the proportion of the total amount, as taken on the new fractional apportionment, will in fact be £141,000 or £143,000. The State is going to save a little this year on the State Grant. The State Grant will not be so much over the coat of the administration of the Fund as formerly. It will be less than it used to be by £46,000. I am not satisfied that that £46,000 is quite accurate. A certain amount of estimation comes in. I think that £54,000 would probably be more accurate. It will certainly be less than the £64,000 previously estimated. The State will save, because the State Grant will be three-sevenths of the total contributions of the employers and workers instead of, as previously, one-sixth. Three-sevenths of the total contributions will amount to £204,000. That represents a reduction of about £46,000. That is an estimate, but if it is correct it represents a reduction, as I have said, of £46,000 on the amount of the State Grant as at present, or last year, or the year before, payable or paid. Let us take that as a gain. A fraction of that will be taken from the Fund, plus any little expenses that will have to be made up. Suppose the calculation is accurate, if the produce of one-fifth of the Fund only gives £136,000 instead of £141,000, and if £141,000 be the total required, the State will have to pay £5,000 by way of allied services. Again, the taxpayer is going to save on the moneys put into the Fund to the extent of £46,000, but he will have, as heretofore, to meet the demand for £141,000. He may meet that by £136,000 in subscription to the Fund, plus £5,000, or some amount like that, to allied services, or he may meet it all out of the Fund. But it is all the taxpayers' money to the extent of £141,000. The State is saving from £46,000 to £54,000.

Is it not a fact that of the total cost of administration the Fund is now going to bear a much higher proportion than it did in the past?

Yes, and the State contribution has been increased to meet that.

It has been decreased by £46,000.

The proportion has been increased. The actual sum of money will be less. The State contribution to the united Fund will be less, but the amount the State is going to pay is more than all the administrative expenses as before. If the amount to meet administrative expenses is £4,000 or £5,000 short, that will be met by the taxpayer. The only amount that is saved is £46,000, roughly. It may possibly be £54,000. I am afraid I would need a blackboard and chalk to demonstrate it.

Question put and agreed to.
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