Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1930

Vol. 36 No. 10

Supplementary Estimates. - Vote 48—Technical Instruction.

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.

I move:—

"Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £1,600 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun na gCostaisí a bhaineann le Ceárd-Oideachas."

"That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £1,600 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1931, to pay the expenses connected with Technical Instruction."

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary for the reason that it would have been impossible to have introduced a Vote for this money at the time that last year's Estimates were under consideration, because at that time the Vocational Education Act was not through the Oireachtas. In reality, this Supplementary Estimate is in consequence of the passing of that Act. It provides the money for the training of the additional teachers to be engaged in vocational schools. The additional teachers are required for the three classes of subjects mentioned, (1) woodwork and building instruction, (2) metal work and motor car engineering, and (3) domestic economy. It is not proposed to limit the training grant in the next twelve months to these three classes because we expect to be able to take on two additional classes, namely, 40 teachers, or aspiring teachers, in scientific and commercial subjects, and also a special course for 40 Irish teachers. As these particular courses are not to commence until after April, it is thought that next year's estimate will be able to cover them, but as regards the three classes of subjects mentioned we need a vote at once. The numbers will be: for woodwork and building instruction, 20 teachers; for metal work and motor car engineering, 16, and for domestic economy, 20. A special course is being provided for these. If the money is voted, it will start in the month of January.

Roughly speaking, the cost of these three courses will be £8,090, of which £1,840 is due to be paid before the end of the financial year. Hence the necessity for moving for the sum mentioned in the Supplementary Estimate. A certain number of places are reserved for candidates with a good knowledge of Irish. If there are not a sufficient number of candidates with the necessary qualifications to fill the reserved places and with, in addition, the necessary qualifications in Irish, these reserved places will be passed on to the unreserved list.

I do not suppose there will be any opposition to this Vote. I think, however, it is a pity that the training of these teachers was not undertaken at least a year in advance. A request to that effect was made in the Dáil on more than one occasion. We recognise that the putting into operation of this vocational scheme will naturally be slow and that the foundations must be properly laid. The training of the teachers is, of course, a very necessary and essential part of that work. In this connection would the Minister give us some information with reference to the buildings and the pound for pound suggestion that was made—to the promise that was made by the Minister in the course of the debate on the Vocational Education Bill when it was going through? In Vol. 34, Col. 1767, of the Dáil Debates, the Minister said:—

The loans will be on the security of the fund and into the fund will be paid the various sums I have mentioned. Therefore, if the Government pays into that fund, its contribution goes also to the building and to providing the interest on the building.

In another place the Minister promised that it would be pound for pound. During the debate on the Bill I rather emphasised the question of the provision of buildings and teachers. The Minister thought that I was too critical. He suggested even that I did not understand the Bill, but I find that in that critical spirit and want of understanding I am in good company even now after the Bill has been passed and directions issued to the various educational committees through the country, because I notice that the Most Rev. Dr. Cullen, Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin, in a speech which he recently delivered, said that buildings will be required. It would not be reasonable, his lordship said, "to expect the ratepayers to shoulder the burden nor was it the impression they were left under when the Bill was passing through the Dáil. It is understood that under the scheme the ratepayers of Carlow will be expected to contribute £300 more than last year and the amount to be contributed by the Department will be £8. When the Bill was in the Dáil we were told that the contribution from the Central Fund was to be pound for pound." Perhaps as his lordship may also misunderstand the matter the Minister would be good enough to allay the anxiety that is felt, not only in the County Carlow, but in other places as I know from correspondence that I have had in regard to this matter.

It is rather early to press the Minister for Education for information in connection with the progress made under the Act that we are discussing, but if at this stage the Minister could inform the House of his policy it would, I think, be helpful, not only to Deputies but to the various committees that have been set up under the Act throughout the country. The Minister is quite right in laying the foundation by providing the necessary teachers. It is obvious that until these teachers have been provided much progress, cannot be made. It does occur to one that special teachers are not necessary for the provision of a continuation scheme. The urgency of that particular aspect of the question was urged by the Commission. Seeing that it is not necessary to have special teachers for that particular work, which might be put in hands immediately, one would be glad to know from the Minister what his intentions are, and when he hopes to put that particular portion of the scheme into operation.

There is one aspect of this question to which I would like to draw attention. I was not quite sure whether I would be in order in doing so on this Estimate, but in view of the statements made by Deputy Fahy and Deputy Good I think that I am.

We are, so to speak, launched upon a slight disorder. The Deputy may continue.

Mr. O'Connell

Deputies will remember that when this Bill was under discussion the question of the type of education to be given in these schools was considered, and especially the type to be given to pupils between the ages of 14 and 16. I think at that time there was general agreement among all who took part in the debate that there should be nothing in the nature of specialisation during these periods, and that while practical subjects would be undoubtedly taught, and the education given would have a practical bias, the main idea was that the education given in these schools should be of a continuation nature, and in fact the Act does, in Section 3, define continuation education as education to continue and supplement the education provided in the elementary schools, and to include practical and general training. It includes these things, but it is not confined to them. In the course of the debate on 14th May I expressed agreement with that view. I said:—

What is more necessary than anything else is that he should get a sound general education, an education that would enable him to take advantage, not so much of the classes he would attend later on, because that can only be to a limited extent, but of the various treatises, articles, books of all kinds, and lectures that he might read or hear from time to time; the type of education that would enable him to benefit by attendance even at the Spring Show.

I was referring to the rural children. Deputy Tierney adverted to the same aspect of the question more effectively, and the Minister in reply said he agreed with the Deputy. When the measure was going through the Seanad the Minister was more definite. In the Seanad report of the 18th June, column 1592, the Minister is reported as saying:—

Senator Connolly spoke on the question of cultural education. It is not intended to exclude cultural education by any means. In fact, a large portion of the continuation education between fourteen and sixteen will be of a general character, and though it will have a very practical bias, in many respects it will be cultural in character.

That statement should be taken in connection with the memorandum. One part of the memorandum, part 2 dealing with organisation and curricula, has this rather significant statement:—

Vocational schools should have a definite technical trend. The mode of conducting such schools and classes and the methods of instruction employed should differ radically from those of the primary or secondary school. A definite break both as to subject matter and its treatment is needed all through the vocational course. Where subjects of the ordinary school curriculum are included they should be treated with a view to their direct utilisation in employment.

Ordinary members of vocational education committees reading that instruction, and taking it as part of the policy of the Ministry, will be justified in assuming that the policy as regards these schools, even where they provide education for children between the ages of 14 and 16 will be definitely of a technical nature, and that education of the general type given in the primary and secondary schools will be taboo. That is the general impression one would get, and that an ordinary member of the vocational committee would get, in reading that particular paragraph. I think it is necessary it should be made perfectly plain that it was not the intention of the Minister, or of this House when it passed the Act, that there should be such a definite movement from the type of education given in the primary or secondary schools, that in fact, as the Act says, it should be a continuation and supplementing of the education given in these schools, and that it should not be assumed general education of a cultural kind, including such subjects as come generally under the heading of cultural education, should be excluded or even pushed into a secondary place.

I think the general effect of these instructions will be that that will happen, because in these instructions issued to the trades preparatory schools special attention is drawn to the type. of education it is intended should be given. I think it is contrary to all ideals that children of the early age of 14 should have their education so directed as seems to be set out in the instructions issued from the Department. I am sure the Minister knows that the issue of these instructions has given rise to a great deal of criticism and comment. I asked the Minister a question in regard to this matter yesterday, and his reply, while fairly elaborate, did not entirely clear up the doubt I had in my mind about the matter. He says:—

The memorandum referred to is not a general statement of policy by my Department in regard to the nature of the education which is suitable for children between the ages of 14 and 16.

I am afraid the Deputy misunderstands. He asked a general question. It is purely for accuracy of statement that I gave the reply in the precise form I did. I was showing that the memorandum is not a general statement so far as all pupils between the ages of 14 and 16 are concerned. I wanted to make it quite clear that it applied to Committee schools only and does not apply to the bulk of pupils in primary or secondary schools.

Mr. O'Connell

Quite, but there is no provision whereby children can be compelled to attend a national school after the age of 14.

They cannot be compelled to attend any particular brand of school after the age of 14.

At the moment.

We have power to make them attend a choice, if I may so put it, of different schools, including national schools.

Mr. O'Connell

There is power in the Vocational Act to compel attendance at certain schools.

Not at certain classes of schools.

Mr. O'Connell

Yes, certain courses of instruction, shall I say?

I was particularly anxious to avoid that, for it would raise a very fundamental principle that the State would take on itself that children between the age of 14 and 16 should attend any definite school. If the Deputy will look up sections of the Act he will see that the compulsory clause of the Act where it is put into force can be fulfilled in about five or six different ways.

Mr. O'Connell

Quite.

But there is no more compulsion to attend this type of schools than any other schools.

Mr. O'Connell

I think it may be assumed that in passing the Vocational Education Act we were providing a special type of education for children between the ages of 14 and 16 whose parents could not afford to give them a secondary education in the ordinary sense of the word.

And to adapt them for industry.

Mr. O'Connell

Certainly.

That was before their minds.

Mr. O'Connell

Undoubtedly, but it was not the main intention to train them between these ages for industry. That was not to be the main purpose.

The report of the Commission laid considerable stress on that.

Mr. O'Connell

We have the report of the Commission, and we know what it has recommended, but the Commission, or this House, did not at any time go so far as the instructions which the Minister has given to the vocational committees would seem to go.

My object in raising this is to give the Minister an opportunity of explaining more clearly than he has done up to the present what is really the policy of the Education Ministry in regard to these schools. Undoubtedly the opinion has got abroad that the education to be given to the children between the ages of 14 and 16 in these particular types of school is merely the type that is given in trades preparatory schools and that what we understand by ordinary cultural education is going to be at a very great discount. I do not think that that is right or that it is the proper view to take in the matter. I am raising these points specially to give the Minister an opportunity of explaining generally at this stage of the development of the schemes what his views and the views of his Department are on the matter.

The Minister has stated the amount of money required in order to enable him to secure more teachers. He specially mentioned teachers for the building and the engineering trades. I wonder has the Minister ever considered the desirability, in the matter of engineering centres where you have an engineering instructor already—a properly qualified man—taking the theoretical and practical side, of taking in a tradesman to help in the technical side in a workshop? Personally I think if the proper type of man were to be found he would be just as desirable and there would be less expense entailed on the committee if the Minister were prepared to accept that. A working engineer who teaches on the practical side should be brought in because otherwise it is going to be dearer on the institute, that is if they are going to have a second teacher. In Wexford where there are a great number of engineering students we find this difficulty, that where there are first and secondyear students and the principal is taken away for lecture work at certain times of the day, he has to leave the first year class when teaching the second year class and the result often is that there is horseplay in the workshop when he is away. The Minister ought not to insist that a technical school in an engineering area should employ a second man at a high salary which the school could not afford to pay.

There is another matter—that is the question of building. I understand that the Education Ministry are endeavouring to secure from the Minister for Finance a promise that the Local Loans Fund will be available for technical committees who are prepared to renovate their old buildings or to extend them. I would like to know if any progress has been made in that direction because I know of some schools that are prepared to go on. I would like to know if any work has been done in that direction so that the schools would be prepared at the beginning of the academic year.

I will take first a few of the small points that have been raised, because Deputy O'Connell has raised a very big question. As regards the buildings I am quite aware of the conditions. In a case not referred to by Deputy Fahy the committee wanted a sum of £600 or £700 for building. They were apparently under the impression that the money was to be paid out of this year's revenue. Of course that is not so, nor was it ever intended that it would be so. All that they were expected to pay was the interest and the sinking fund, and roughly speaking in the case I refer to, these would amount to about £50 to £55. That was a very different proposition.

So far as the £ for £ promise is concerned I think the Deputy will remember that I indicated that in the first year it would not be necessary as there would be sufficient money from the increased compulsory rate. If the Deputy wishes I will give him the passages in my speech where I dealt with that matter. I indicated that the policy not for the first year but look at over, say, three years, would be £ for £. Deputy Corish referred to the buildings, that they should be done by borrowing. If he will put a particular case before me there will be no delay in dealing with that matter. As regards the other points raised by the Deputy so far as tradesmen are concerned, not merely may it be cheaper to get a tradesman to teach a technical subject—and that is not always the chief consideration— but it may be better. What we are doing in a great many cases is to take men who are already tradesmen and train them to teach. In that way not merely will you get better results from the teaching point of view but morally such a teacher imposes himself more on the youngsters. The teacher who has a practical as well as a theoretical training imposes himself more on his students. They will be more attentive to the teaching they will get from a teacher who is a tradesman than they would in the case of a teacher who is only a theoretical man who has got a short course in a technical school. As regards the question of assistants, that is a new case and if the Deputy puts it before me I will look into it.

As far as the matter of vocational education is concerned I have sent out a memorandum explaining the full policy to the Committees. I gather that Deputy O'Connell is not pleased with the memorandum. I would think from some remarks interjected by Deputy Good that he is not displeased with the memorandum or that he is not opposed to it. I think Deputy O'Connell accused me yesterday of being inconsistent in this matter. I would be quite prepared now to take up any quotation from any speech of mine on this measure when it was going before the House, to take everything I then said and my whole speech on the Second Reading, both the opening and concluding speeches here and in the Seanad and any answers I made then to the points raised, and I will be able to show the Deputy that in those speeches there is nothing inconsistent between them and the policy in the memorandum. That policy is now the same as my policy when the measure was going through the Oireachtas.

I stated on more than one occasion in my Second Reading speech in the Dáil that I definitely disclaimed any intention of setting up a new principle of control in education in this country, and it would be a new principle in control if I set up a school for general education managed by local committees. I definitely disclaimed any such intention. The Deputy in the question yesterday and now suggested that I was inconsistent in the matter of the memorandum with the views I gave expression to on the Second Reading. As a rule I have not the habit of reading my speeches, but there has been such a lot of controversy about this Bill that I have been condemned to read more than once everything that I then said about the Bill. If I am not boring the House too much, or inflicting myself too much upon the Deputies, may I quote one or two statements? I will refer to Volume 34, Col. 1739. As the Deputy will probably remember, I object there, and not for the first time, to the employment of the words "continuation education." I pointed out that I disliked the words "continuation education." I thought that Deputies would be tired of my expression of view. I objected to the term precisely for the reason that it might lead people into the idea that we would be continuing, not instruction after the primary schools but a type of instruction such as would be given in the primary schools. That was my principal objection, and I quoted in column 1739 a paragraph from the report from the Technical Commission. I quoted it for the reason that I agreed with it. The paragraph quoted from the report refers to the quite different school atmosphere that ought to pervade the continuation schools. It emphasised that the atmosphere should be quite different from that which pervades the primary schools. In that column I said "I say I dislike the word continuation, because it gets the idea into people's heads—it is hard to avoid it—that this is simply a continuation of the primary schools."

Right through the Second Rearing statement and elsewhere through the Committee debates, in the Seanad as well as in the Dáil, I continually emphasised the importance of the break to which the Deputy now refers. At the end of column 1742 and on the top of column 1743 I referred to two types of education which would be quite different from what was proposed to be given in the continuation schools. I explained that I had nothing but admiration for the system of primary and secondary education, but I pointed out that these two types of education were not suitable. In the next column I stated "It is desirable that in all the schools there should be this overriding consideration as to the atmosphere that should prevail—the absence of the atmosphere which the pupil gets in the primary school and the definitely vocational character of the education that is to be given. That applies especially to those between the ages of fourteen and sixteen, and even on to seventeen or eighteen, who attend those schools."

I have taken out those passages not because they are the most emphatic but because they come first in the debate, but there are any amount of other quotations in which the break with the national school is emphasised. In column 1742 the Deputy will notice "In that continuation education a thing that ought to be continually in the minds of the people responsible for the running of the schools is that the occupation, the business, of the persons attending the classes should be always before their minds. On the other hand, no continuation system of education should neglect the cultural side." Whenever I mentioned the cultural side there was hardly an occasion, either here or in the Seanad, on which I did not definitely make it clear that by cultural education I meant something different from manual training, such as mathematics, English, science, and so on, and I pointed out that continuation education must have a distinctly practical bias. That is precisely the purpose of the circular. It is not intended that instruction in the vocational schools should be limited to manual instruction. I made that clear in the Seanad.

It was proposed in the Seanad, I think by Senator Connolly, that there should be a limitation in the hours of manual instruction. I found great difficulty in following the amendment because, though the wording applied to one part of the Bill, the actual section belonged to another. I made it clear that the amount of manual instruction would be limited, I pointed out that there were other subjects which would be taught but with a practical bias. That runs right through the whole conception so far as the Bill was concerned. I emphasise that most strongly. I was particularly anxious so far as certain principles were concerned, but I was convinced that there was a prejudice against a certain type of education because it was what the ordinary person would call useful. When a man comes to the age of 20 and takes up reading and studies for himself I am convinced that if between the ages of fourteen and sixteen he is taught anything well—mathematics, for instance—and if he has an interest in that particular thing, and sees its effect on his ordinary life, he will be better able to read literature when he comes to 20 years than if he continued in a purely theoretical fashion and without interest to deal with these matters in the school.

Vote agreed to.
Top
Share