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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Oct 1931

Vol. 40 No. 5

Courts of Justice (No. 2) Bill, 1931—Second Stage.

The necessity for this Bill arises from a decision given in the Supreme Court this year in the case of Quinn and Another v. Stokes and Another. In that case, which was a High Court action, it was held by the Supreme Court, that when costs were to be taxed upon the Circuit Court scale, the only scale in existence was the old County Court scale. That has led to a certain amount of trouble and a great deal of doubt as to the effect it would have upon decisions which had already been pronounced, or which would be pronounced in the future, until rules are introduced in the Circuit Court. I want to point out that this case did not invalidate decisions given in the Circuit Court. That was not the question which was at issue. The question at issue before the court, and the only thing the court decided was that when costs were to be measured on the Circuit Court scale, they had to be measured on the only existing scale, that is the County Court scale. But the Circuit Court Judges have different powers, so to speak, from the High Court Judges in this matter, because the Circuit Court Judges were directed by the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, to follow out the procedure, where on Rules of Court had been made up-to-date as regards pleading, practice and procedure generally, including liability to costs, as nearly as possible in the same manner as it might have been exercised by the County Court.

The Circuit Court Judges held that "as nearly as possible" meant that the County Court scale should be their guide, but that they were not absolutely bound to follow it, and that when a larger sum than £50 was at issue they were entitled to give a larger sum than the sum allowed for £50 cases as costs. I venture to think that argument is correct, because, as I have already pointed out, that did not come before the Supreme Court at all. It was not the point at issue before the Supreme Court not could the argument that the Circuit Court Judges were right in what they did, have been put before the Supreme Court. It would seem that when this Act was passed it was known that there must be some interval between the setting up of the court and the formulation of the rules; that they must have discretion to give in £300 cases, let me say, higher costs than they would have given in £50 cases. That must have been the intention of the Oireachtas.

However doubts have arisen about the matter and we do not wish to have any further leading cases on this subject. Accordingly the first section of the Bill which is now before the House limits the operation of the Bill to a period until a definite scale of Circuit Court costs come into force under the Rules of Court. Section 2 says in effect that from the date of coming into force of the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, until 31st December next, that is assuming that the Rules of Court are passed by the House as I will ask the House to do in a few minutes, the Circuit Court Judges shall be deemed to have and always to have had power to fix costs at their discretion. Therefore whatever doubts there may be will be cleared up by that declaratory section. Section 3 says that whenever between the coming into force of the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, and the appointed date—that is when the Rules of Court come into force—the costs in a High Court case fall to be taxed on a Circuit Court basis they may be taxed at two-thirds by the High Court Judge or alternatively at the discretion of the taxing master in any particular case. Sub-section (2) of the same section excludes any case where the Supreme Court has actually given a judgment, that is to say it excludes a case that has been decided inter partes, the case of Quinn v. Stokes. Difficulties may possibly arise in another case. That is where the case has been appealed and the taxing master has to tax the costs in the Circuit Court as well as the costs on appeal as part of the total costs of the successful litigant. Section 4 of the Act deals with that case and on the same principle as Section 3. In general the object of the Bill is to give legal effect to the practice actually in force prior to the recent decision of the Supreme Court in the case of Quinn v. Stokes.

I do not propose at this stage to deal with other matters which might arise in regard to this. This Bill, as the Minister said, is brought in for the purpose of remedying what has arisen with regard to the case of Quinn v. Stokes. One of the difficulties I see in the Bill, however, is that I am afraid it does not leave to the Circuit Court Judges the discretion that they assumed they had power to exercise. Circuit Court Judges assumed that they had a certain discretion with regard to the fixing of costs, the fixing of counsel's fees and with regard to a certain method of assessing expenses. I am aware that in a number of cases appeals are at present pending where the Circuit Court Judges allowed certain sums for expenses and certain fixed sums for costs. I would suggest to the Minister that there might be an amendment in the Committee Stage that would make that perfectly clear, where they did what they anticipated they had power to do, that is gave certain fees to counsel and assessed certain sums for witnesses' expenses.

Is not that clear from Section 2?

I am afraid it is not. However, the Minister, I assume, would accept an amendment in the Committee Stage if that is not quite clear.

I think it is quite clear. Section 2 says: "He shall have and be deemed always to have had jurisdiction at his discretion either to fix the amount of such costs and expenses or either of them (as the case may be), or to direct the manner in which and the principles on which such amount is to be ascertained." He is deemed always to have had these powers.

The point I want to make clear to the Minister is this. It is not a matter which would be subject to taxation where a certain fee is fixed by the Circuit Court Judge for counsel and also a certain fee fixed in court by the Circuit Court Judge for witnesses' expenses. I am aware that appeals have been taken definitely on these two issues.

He has full jurisdiction and is deemed to have it since the passing of the Act.

The Circuit Court Judge may technically be in error in assuming he has these powers, but once he has given his decision on the assumption that he has them I want to know now whether these appeals will automatically go by the board.

I think it is perfectly plain that he had that power.

Does the Minister mean that in giving these powers in this particular Bill the Circuit Judge may, if he wishes, depart from the scale of charges given in the Rules of Court, and which have just been drawn up by a committee?

No, because as soon as the Rules of Court come into force, which, I hope, will be on the 1st January next, then this power of the Circuit Judge ceases. The power only lasts until the appointed day, and the appointed day is when the rules come into force, and if the rules are passed, as I hope they will in the next few minutes, that will be the 1st of January.

There is one matter in this Bill which appears to me to be a very cruel injustice. The victims of the particular case in Quinn and White against Stokes and Quirke must suffer. The people who have been the cause of this intermediary legislation are provided for in sub-section (2) of Section 3. By this sub-section they must suffer from the anomalies of the law which we are remedying. In other cases which occurred before, and where legislation intervened, as in Lynham and Butler, the persons concerned in those actions got the benefit of the Act. I think that perhaps in other cases the other practice has obtained, but in this particular case, where the circumstances of the case were of such a nature as to make it rather a cruel injustice against a widow who had been very badly treated by the defendant, in the case of Quinn and White against Stokes and Quirke, really I think the Minister should drop sub-section (2) of Section 3 and allow them to get the benefit of the Act. which is to apply to all other people because they have suffered.

If a person has actually fought out a case and been successful, I would not be allowed by Statute, when the case is finished and over, to reverse the decision.

Here is a case where those people have actually won, and they cannot get their costs because of the present arrangement.

The Deputy knows that the bulk of the costs were incurred fighting out this point.

Surely they would be entitled to some sort of indemnity for having brought public notice to bear on a matter of considerable importance?

I do not think that the State should bear the expense of leading cases when they are, as they always will be, fought on points of statute or common law. There is no precedent for it at all.

There is a good saying in law that it is always a bad thing to be in leading cases, but 99 per cent. of the leading cases do not lead to legislation. Where they do lead to legislation they ought to get the benefit of the legislation they lead to.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Friday, 23rd October.

I suppose we will be allowed to put in an amendment this evening.

Certainly, but the Deputy cannot upset a decision.

It is not a case of upsetting a decision. It is only a case of dealing with a decision.

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