The views expressed by Deputy Ruttledge are largely the views which I hold. The Deputy and I view this matter from the same standpoint. We represent areas that have strong points of similarity. As Deputy Ruttledge pointed out, the Rules that would be suitable for a City like Dublin, a City like Cork, the capital of this country, or a City like Limerick, are entirely unsuited for areas such as those represented by Deputy Ruttledge and myself. I want to make it clear to the House that if I vote for these Rules now as a matter of necessity, it is only on the understanding that the Rules are entirely of a temporary nature, and on the understanding that the Report of the Committee will be implemented at the earliest opportunity. It is quite wrong for the Minister to suggest that the Rules are not in conflict with the reports of the Committee. They are entirely in conflict. If anybody reads them together with the Morrissey report he will see right through the recommendations suggestions for Rules doing this and that and the other. The fact of the matter is that the Rules and the report of the Committee are entirely at variance.
If the Circuit Courts are ever to be brought into anything like working order, that report must be implemented at the earliest possible moment. As the matter stands, the passing of these Rules would really be putting the cart before the horse. First pass the Act. That is the natural order in which the matter should be handled. When you have the Act passed, then bring in the new Rules. I take it from what the Minister said yesterday, and from what was said on previous occasions, that he is now prepared to bring in a Bill at a very early date. The sooner he does that the better. That Bill will implement the Report in so far as the Executive Council approves of it. I want to see that done at the earliest opportunity. Then the Rules and the question of the costs would have to be reviewed.
It may be an unpopular thing for either of us to say that the costs awarded to solicitors are excessive, but when a matter like this becomes urgent I stand for it. There is no doubt that for areas like those represented by Deputy Ruttledge and myself the costs allowed under the Rules are excessive. The costs are reckless, and the scale was evidently prepared by men who did not know their job. Had there been representatives of areas like Deputy Ruttledge's and mine on the Committee drawing up those Rules, the schedule of costs would be very different from what it is. I also want to draw attention to this, that some of those Rules we are asked to approve of are entirely ultra vires. There is no question about that. I think that a Committee of the Bar has drawn attention to that. That is apparent to anybody reading the Rules.
Whoever drew up these Rules took upon himself the power of this House, the power of the Oireachtas. He proceeded to pass legislation in the form of these Rules. That is a procedure I will never stand for. This House and the Seanad are the Houses in which legislation should be introduced and passed, and that should not be done in a Government office or in any back officers in the City by officials or by anybody else.
These Rules contain provisions which can only be carried if they are approved of by the House. Some of them are not to be approved of, and some of them are expressly disapproved of by the Morrissey Report. Some of these Rules are, in effect, passed in some back offices in Dublin. I do not care how well they are intended, but they should be more carefully revised, at all events so far as costs are concerned. The Rules should be looked at from the poor man's point of view as well as from the rich man's point of view. We were told some years ago, when the Courts of Justice Act was being passed, that it was going to make the law cheaper than ever; to bring it to every man's door. It was going to be more convenient for the people. Deputy Ruttledge has given you instances of what has, in effect, occurred and what is occurring every day with regard to appeals from the Circuit Court. The sooner that sort of thing is put a stop to the better. The Courts of Justice Act said that there shall be an appeal on law and on fact from the decisions of the Circuit Court. There is no appeal on fact, although there is a decision saying that such a right does exist. Until the form of these appeals is entirely changed the poor man is deprived of the right of appeal. That is not right. There is a unanimous report from the Morrissey Committee asking that the Rules be altered. I would say that the sooner that is done the better.
There is also this other question on the Rules: As now provided there is a Schedule of the areas in which sittings of the Circuit Courts are to take place. Sittings of the courts are only to be held in such areas as are named. In my area, the very important town of Bandon, which is the capital of the Bandon area, is to have no sitting. The Bandon area is the name of the area for which the judge sits. According to the Rules as they appear, the judge cannot sit in that area because there is no provision made either in the capital or elsewhere in that area. Litigants are taken away from the town where from time immemorial courts have been held, and where there is now a very excellent courthouse. The sittings lapsed there because there was no proper courthouse accommodation. The courts were held in halls and in schools. Eventually, pending the building of the courthouse, the court had to be taken away to the city of Cork, and the court is still held in the city of Cork. If these Rules are to be regarded as final, the people of Bandon will keenly feel the injustice done them through taking from their town the sittings of the court which had been held there for a very long time indeed.
As regards what Deputy Ruttledge has said, he and I and everybody else did represent to the court and to our clients that the Circuit Court was entirely distinct from the old County Court, and that it was by no means to be looked upon as a successor of the old County Court. I now ask the Minister for Justice to say definitely that the recommendations made by the Morrissey Report will be brought before the House in the form of a Bill at a very early opportunity. That is the only way in which we can at all succeed in getting the Circuit Court into order. The present Rules are nothing more than a makeshift.
