Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Nov 1931

Vol. 40 No. 14

Adjournment Debate. - Leix County Council Road Contracts.

Mr. Davin

I asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health the following question to-day:-

To ask the Minister for Local Government and Public Health whether he has received details of a number of cases where the County Surveyor to the Laoghis County Council declined to carry out orders made at the last road works meeting of the council in connection with the maintenance of certain roads by direct labour and subsequently let said roads by contract without previous consultation with the council, and without inviting tenders in the prescribed manner; whether he is aware that the County Council, without insisting on an explanation from the county surveyor, refused to demand a sworn inquiry into the roads administration of the Laoighis County Council; whether he has made any inquiries into the complaints submitted to his Department; and what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter.

The Minister, in his reply, stated:

Complaints of the nature mentioned in the Question have been the subject of correspondence between the Deputy and my Department. At the Deputy's request the complaints were laid before the Laoighis County Council, who passed a resolution stating that they were of opinion that the matters referred to were entirely questions of administration in the hands of the county surveyor as chief engineer of the council and responsible for carrying out the road schemes.

In a supplementary reply the Minister stated that the Deputy wants him to interfere with the County Council of Leix in the administration of its work. I denied that and I stated that the reason why I had been asked to raise this matter is to point out why the Minister has not, in this case, insisted upon the county council carrying out the letter and spirit of Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order. That Article states:

The remuneration paid to any persons employed by the County Surveyor under this Article shall be at such rate as the council shall, from time to time, decide.

General Mulcahy

What is that about?

[An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.]

Mr. Davin

The cases I am bringing under the notice of the Minister, and which have been submitted in great detail, for consideration by his Department, with the request that enquiries should be made whether the letter and spirit of that Article had been complied with concerning certain roads that were before the last roads works meeting and which should be maintained by direct labour in accordance with orders made by the council. The County Council in deciding that certain roads should be maintained by direct labour certainly intended that the work of raising the material as well as the carting and maintenance work should be carried out by direct labour. Shortly after the road works meeting of the council it was discovered that the County Surveyor was proposing to let, by contract, certain work which the County Council decided should be wholly carried out by direct labour. The Unions representing the men who hitherto secured work on the roads brought the matter under the notice of the County Surveyor, and I am in a position to state that the County Surveyor undertook that the matter would be put right and the work carried out by direct labour as in previous years. I will only quote one or two cases submitted to the Department for its consideration and for inquiry, requesting the Minister to say, whether in his opinion, in these cases the letter and spirit of Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order had been complied with.

Take the steam-rolling of the Clonaslee Road. "On this job an agreement in respect of surface men and carters was made between the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union and the Assistant Surveyor which provided, in the case of carters, that nine men who had no other means of living were to be given first preference. A number of farmers, some of whom had farms from 30 to 100 acres came in——"

General Mulcahy

On a point of order. Is this matter proper to the question before the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think it is.

Mr. Davin

Do you rule that it is not the duty of the Minister to satisfy this House that Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order has been carried out in accordance with the wishes and the intentions of the Minister and his Department.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not called upon to rule on that at all.

General Mulcahy

If the Deputy will explain what the order he has read out has to do with this particular case, it would be better. As far as I can understand from the Deputy's reading of Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order, he wants me to reduce the salary of the county surveyor or to suppress the county council.

Mr. Davin

No. Certainly not.

General Mulcahy

That is all I can understand from the Deputy's remarks. It is not my intention to do either one or the other. I see no reason for doing so.

Mr. Davin

Do you rule. A Leas-Chinn Chomhairle, that I have no right to proceed to make my case?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not ruling any such thing. I am ruling that the Deputy ought to keep to his question.

Mr. Davin

I want to make the case, and it is the only case I make, that when any council which at a statutory meeting decides that certain road works should be carried out by direct labour, it is the duty of the Minister to see that the intentions of that council are fully adhered to.

General Mulcahy

Is not the Deputy asking me to interfere with the County Council in a case where they decided not to hold an inquiry?

Mr. Davin

I contend that the cases submitted by me to the Minister's Department, as far as I am aware, have not been submitted to the County Council for their consideration and decision.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand that persons in Leix, who want to make representations to the County Council in respect to the working of that body, are to make them to the Minister?

Mr. Davin

The Union protested against this breach of an agreement when the overseer informed the farmers in question that if they continued work in defiance of his order they would not receive any payment. They continued to work in defiance of the overseer's orders and eventually got payment on the orders of the County Surveyor.

General Mulcahy

I submit that this is not in order.

Mr. Davin

Here is a case where large and prosperous farmers could work in defiance of orders, while men, depending on the work, were deprived of it, and were obliged to seek home help at the expense of the ratepayers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps Deputy Davin will now keep to his question. I think he is aware that he can only refer to matters that arise out of the question. Surely the Deputy does not suggest that what he has read has anything to do with this House?

Mr. Anthony

I think the Minister attempted to lead the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a matter for me.

Mr. Davin

I submit that I can only make my case by quoting cases in point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No. The Deputy must submit a case for which the Minister is responsible and which he can answer.

Mr. Davin

I submit that the Minister is responsible for seeing that the decisions of a County Council are carried out by officials paid by the County Council and that the work which the council decides should be done in a certain way, should be carried out by the officials paid by the County Council. I submit that the Minister in refusing to make the necessary inquiries with a view to holding a sworn inquiry, has not carried out in the letter and in the spirit, Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order for which he is responsible. Am I to understand from the Minister that the decision of the roads work meeting can be upset by an official of the council without referring such a decision back for the reconsideration of the council and to the Department for its sanction. In other words, can an official of the County Council ignore the decisions of that council made at a statutory meeting with the sanction and the consent of the Minister, notwithstanding what is contained in Article 56 of the Public Bodies Order? If so, the council has no power, and the real power is vested in the County Surveyor.

General Mulcahy

What the Deputy wants me to do is to dismiss the council because the council, contrary to what he believes, have decided that the County Surveyor was within his rights in doing whatever he did.

Mr. Dwyer

The sooner you appoint a commissioner the better for the council.

Mr. Gorry

Perhaps I might be allowed to intervene in this matter as a member of the County Council. The County Council decided on this particular occasion—and this matter was brought before them in a rather hurried manner—that they would not interfere with the discretionary power of the County Surveyor. It was agreed by the council—and I believe that the council were acting within their rights in deciding in favour of the County Surveyor—that he had a perfect right in handling the matter as their executive official responsible to them for the road work and for the expenditure also, to control the men under his charge. The council by a majority vote decided that. As a matter of fact the letters sent from the Department to the council only reached me as a member of the council the day before the meeting was held because I did not happen to be at home. It was the merest accident that I was able to attend the meeting. Possibly if I were not present at the meeting other things would be said about me as they have been said under certain circumstances about me and other people. I think if outside people would try to appreciate the difficulties of councillors they might also appreciate the fact that at least the majority of the members of the council are trying to serve the ratepayers and their country as best they can and that a little of the misdirected criticism which we hear on subjects like this might be reserved for other purposes. Perhaps if greater notice of the meeting were given more members of the council would be in attendance. There were only twenty-three members present and I am aware that there were members absent who would like to have taken part in the discussion on that particular question. There is a question of principle involved whether any outsider or any member of the council can interfere with the rights of the County Surveyor duly appointed to carry out certain duties. I hold no brief for Mr. Feehan, our County Surveyor. What I do say is that generally speaking he acts very fairly as between the road worker and the council. There may be exceptional cases where little matters of friction arise. But they can better be settled by the council than by outsiders. If a decision of the Ministry were required on any matter that decision could be afterwards got when the Minutes would be available for the Ministry.

Mr. Davin

Has the speech of the Deputy any relation to the issue raised by me?

Mr. Gorry

Certainly.

General Mulcahy

It is a very important feature of the case of Deputy Davin versus the County Council, a case with which I have nothing to do at all.

Mr. Davin

Does the Minister still suggest that the case submitted on the 9th September was submitted to the County Council for its consideration? As far as I know that is not so and Deputy Gorry knows that. The cases which I have here in my possession, the detailed cases submitted to the Minister by me on the 9th September, were not submitted to the County Council.

Mr. Gorry

They were submitted to the County Council but in a rather hurried fashion. The County Council should I hold in the first instance get ample opportunity to examine them, and if the question is such a big one, it should not have been the subject of discussion at a hurried special meeting, because a fortnight before the Council had sat in quarterly meeting. The question of the County Surveyor's rights could await a decision at the annual meeting. I think the question would better arise at an annual meeting rather than be considered at a special meeting.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until Friday, 20th November, at 10.30 a.m.