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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1931

Vol. 40 No. 16

Private Deputies' Business. - Local Government (No. 2) Bill, 1931.—First Stage.

I move for leave to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend sub-section (2) of Section 63 of the Local Government Act, 1925 (No. 5 of 1925).

This is a very brief Bill and I move it in the absence of my colleague, Deputy P. Boland. The purpose of the Bill is to get a change made in the Local Government Act of 1925 whereby members of county councils who attend at least 50 per cent. of the ordinary meetings of each county council or board of health would be paid expenses instead of, as at present, payment being made only if there is a minimum attendance of 75 per cent. at such meetings.

In some counties there are very long distances which members have to travel from their homes to the place of meeting. Sometimes in the year it is not possible for members without very great sacrifice to attend a sufficient number of meetings to enable them to qualify for payment of their travelling expenses. I would like, and I am sure everybody here would like, that as far as possible, except where sickness intervenes, members of county councils, boards of health and other such important bodies should attend if possible every meeting. But that is aiming at an ideal, and while we have to aim at what is an ideal, we have to face facts as they are. We realise that even this Assembly, which, I suppose, looks upon itself as a much more important body than county councils or boards of health, does not get a 75 per cent. attendance all the year round at its meetings. Sickness and other things of that kind over which the individual has no control arise to prevent members attending to their duties regularly on these public boards. Once the principle of payment for attendance at meetings, that is to say, payment of travelling expenses, is admitted, I think it is only fair that 50 per cent. should be taken as the minimum instead of 75 per cent. as heretofore. That should be admitted when one takes into account the obstacles that are in the way of many members of such bodies giving a full attendance. I do not know what the attendance in Mayo would be, or what the attendance in Cork would be. Both are large counties. I do not know what their attendance would be compared with the attendance at meetings in places like Louth. I have not any figures, but I imagine it is much more difficult to get a good attendance in places like Cork or Mayo than in places like Louth or County Dublin. Certainly it is very easy to get to a meeting in the County Dublin. They have there a variety of conveyances. That is not the case in other parts of the country. This matter has been brought to the notice of members of our Party by members of the Party who are also members of the county councils and boards of health and by colleagues of theirs who complain that while they may have been attending almost 75 per cent. of the meetings of the local bodies, they might be 1 per cent. or 2 per cent., perhaps, under the figure fixed by the Act of 1925. Therefore, according to the law as it now stands, they would not be permitted to put in a claim for their travelling expenses. For my part, I would go further and allow sufficient to members on public boards where it would be convenient to do so to give them a meal.

This is the First Reading.

Yes. I know this is outside the Bill, but I wish to mention it in passing. If I had my way I would make some such provision for those who have to go long distances. I will not discuss the matter further than to say that I think it justifiable, in the public interest, that they should be given a meal, because in the case of many county councils and boards of health members have to leave early in the morning and they do not get home until late at night. They are at business connected with public authorities all day long. However, that is not our present proposition. I desire to move that leave be granted to introduce this measure.

[An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.]

In opposing the introduction of this measure I will submit to the promoters what has been suggested by Deputy O'Kelly himself, that this is a very small point which can hardly be referred to without going outside it. Part of the Local Government Act of 1925, which this Bill proposes to amend, consists of a section, introduced at that time with a certain amount of diffidence, making provision, not for the payment of the total cost of travelling expenses to members of county councils, boards of health, and generally committees of local bodies, whose members have to travel certain distances to meetings, but a provision to make a contribution towards their travelling expenses. It was restricted in many ways. In the first place, the members had to attend for a period of not less than three hours if the meeting lasted longer, and if the meeting laster shorter than three hours, they should attend the whole of the time. A person had to travel five or more miles before he became entitled to get any contribution towards his expenses. In the case of persons travelling by rail the rate was 4d. a mile, and other than by rail, 5d. a mile.

The principle of making payments was introduced with a certain amount of diffidence. Various aspects of the matter have been subject to criticism. Some people still hold, as was then held, that the whole principle is undesirable, that much good local government work was done in times when there was much more difficulty in travelling and there was no payment of expenses. Others have criticised the amounts of 4d. and 5d. a mile. Others criticised the necessity for a person spending three hours at a county council meeting that might last all day. County council meetings begin at 11 o'clock, adjourn for lunch at 1 o'clock, and then continue in the evening. It was pointed out that a person who attended from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock, during a very material part of the business, and then did not turn up after the luncheon interval, should not be counted as being present at the meeting for the purposes of expenses. There were all kinds of criticism of the provision regarding payment. Now Deputies Boland and O'Kelly bring in this Bill for the purpose of amending that original provision. They suggest that persons travelling certain distances should get what might be tantamount to a small subsistence allowance—a contribution towards a meal. Somebody else might bring in a measure dealing with the necessity for attending three hours, or increasing the rate 4d. to 6d. and 5d. to 8d. My attitude with regard to these small amendments relating to local government legislation is to oppose them, except a very strong case can be made out in their favour.

I have already stated that we propose to introduce, at the earliest possible moment, legislation that will remodel the county council machinery. I have been approached on different aspects of this matter, not upon this particular point raised by Deputy O'Kelly, but upon other matters. I have suggested to those who have approached me that a thing which has stood for six years may very well stand for another year, when the whole principle, as well as any details that require to be straightened out, will be dealt with, if the principle of the thing is approved of. I think we may very reasonably leave the subject matter of the Bill to be considered in connection with the general measure that will be introduced remodelling local government machinery.

I am not opposing the introduction of this Bill because I disagree with what is in it. I am opposing it because, to a certain extent, it is inadequate. It does not make any attempt to cover the general thing which has been the subject, from different quarters, of various types of criticism. As we are on the eve of introducing important legislation that must deal with this general matter, I suggest that there is no need for this measure. I suggest that in the first place it is undesirable, and, in the second place, there is really no need for pressing this Bill at the moment.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 59.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Mullins, Thomas.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • White, John.
  • Wolfe, George.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies G. Boland and Allen; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Dolan.
Question declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.25 p.m.
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