This is a small Bill dealing with an evil which I understand is of growing dimensions in certain parts of the country. Persons who have got an old age pensions book or pensions under the Blind Persons Act, and also ex-soldiers of the British Army, have been, in parts of the country especially, in the habit of pawning or borrowing money on these books, and they are charged a very unreasonable rate of interest indeed. It has been pointed out to us that this is becoming a very serious matter indeed for these persons, and to save them from individuals who are preying upon them this Bill has been introduced. It applies to pensions payable under the Old Age Pensions Act, under the Blind Persons Act, or in respect of service in the British Army. I might say that ex-soldiers of the National Army are already protected under our Defence Forces Act, which renders void and makes an offence the alienation in any way of any of these documents. Any alienation is declared to be null and void. If documents get into the hands of any moneylender he can be ordered by the court to give them back. He must give them back on demand from the pensions officer or from the pensioner himself. Then, under Section 5, anybody who commits an offence under the Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £20 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months, or to such fine or such imprisonment. These, of course, are the maximum penalties. I move that the Bill be read a second time.
Pensions Books (Prohibition of Alienation) Bill, 1931—Second Stage.
The Minister referred to the fact that Free State Army pensions are protected.
National Army pensions.
There is a penalty for any abuses in connection with the pension book of ex-soldiers of the National Army?
Yes. We are giving ex-British soldiers the same protection which our own soldiers have got.
I wish to support this Bill. Unfortunately owing to a fatality I have not had the advantage of seeing the print of it, but I take it from the Minister that he has extended to this country the provisions which already exist in England, so far as the pensions of ex-British soldiers are concerned. If I understand the position, speaking from recollection only, in England the pensioner is protected by an annual Army Act. When the annual Army Act of 1921 expired, of course, it no longer applied to this country. The Bill, however, is re-enacted every year in England, but the fact that it did not apply to this country and the practice of pledging these books have led to very great abuses. In the City of Cork I know that as regards pension books or allowances, I forget the exact title, it is a fact that these books are pledged with the pawnbroker or the moneylender. I take it that the Bill will be sufficiently wide to enable the Minister to catch and punish the moneylender or the pawnbroker if they touch these books.
I think so.
Mr. Wolfe
I think the Minister might go a little further and find on inquiry that unemployment cards are also pledged. While the card is really of no use to the person with whom it is pledged, it has been made a weapon by the moneylender particularly, or the pawnbroker. I hope that the Minister has drawn this Bill in the widest possible terms and that he can employ it to make it a penal offence for the pawnbroker, moneylender or anyone else to meddle with these cards in future.
Of course the attention of my Department and my own attention have been drawn to the three particular abuses which we are remedying here. As a matter of fact until a couple of days ago, after the Bill was introduced, when the matter was mentioned to me by Deputy Wolfe, I had not heard that there were any abuses in connection with unemployment insurance cards. I did not hear of their being hypothecated in any way, and, therefore, they were not included in the Bill.
Could the Minister include them now?
I would have no objection to including them if they come within the terms of the long title of the Bill. I think probably they would.
Mr. Wolfe
I am told from a very reliable source, by an official, that the abuse, which does exist to a very large extent in Cork, has been extended even to unemployment cards. I quite agree with the Minister that it is hard to realise how anybody could lend anything on them. They take, however, possession of the card, and they play on that possession, not as security for themselves, but as a document which the borrower cannot get hold of before he pays the money due.
I will consider the matter.