Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1932

Vol. 42 No. 3

Resolution No. 7—Customs.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move that the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 7.

(1) That there shall be charged, levied, and paid on every of the articles mentioned in the second column of the Schedule to this Resolution imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 12th day of May, 1932, a Customs duty of an amount equal to that percentage of the value of the article which is stated in the third column of the said Schedule opposite the mention of the article in the said second column.

(2) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to the duty mentioned in this Resolution in respect of any article with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland" and,

(a) where a percentage is stated in the fourth column of the Schedule to this Resolution opposite the mention of such article in the second column of the said Schedule, as though such article were included in the Second Schedule to the said Finance Act, 1919, in the list of goods to which two-thirds of the full rate is made applicable as a preferential rate, and

(b) where the word "free" appears in the fourth column of the Schedule to this Resolution opposite the mention of such article in the second column of the said Schedule, as though the said Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1919, contained a list of goods which were, by way of preferential rate, to be admitted free of duty and such article were included in that list.

(3) That the provisions (if any) set forth in the fifth column of the Schedule to this Resolution opposite the mention in the second column of the said Schedule of any article shall apply and have effect in relation to the duty mentioned in this Resolution in respect of such article.

(4) That, whenever it is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that the duty mentioned in this Resolution in respect of any article has been duly paid in respect of such article and that such article has not been used in Saorstát Eireann otherwise than for a purpose of manufacture, a drawback equal to the amount of the duty so paid shall be allowed on such article or on any goods in the manufacture or preparation of which such article is shown to have been used if such article or such goods (as the case may be) is or are exported as merchandise, or shipped for use as stores, or deposited in a bonded warehouse for shipment as stores.

(5) That Section 6 of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1879, shall not apply to any article liable to a duty mentioned in this Resolution.

(6) That any article liable to a duty mentioned in this Resolution which is re-imported into Saorstát Eireann after exportation therefrom shall be exempt from such duty if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners either

(a) that such article had not been imported prior to its exportation, or

(b) that such article had been first imported prior to the 12th day of May, 1932, or

(c) that such article had been first imported on or after the 12th day of May, 1932, and was not at the time of such importation liable to any duty of Customs, or

(d) that such article had been first imported on or after the 12th day of May, 1932, and that all duties of Customs to which it was then liable had been duly paid and either no drawback of duty had been allowed on exportation or all drawback so allowed had been repaid to the Revenue Commissioners.

(7) That articles which have been imported and exported by way of transit only shall not be deemed to have been imported or exported for the purposes of the next preceding paragraph of this Resolution.

(8) That where the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied in respect of any article liable to a duty mentioned in this Resolution, that

(a) the importer of such article resides or intends to reside permanently in Saorstát Eireann, and

(b) such article had been previously used by the importer or his family or household or had been previously used by the importer for the purposes of his trade or business, and

(c) such article is being imported into Saorstát Eireann for the use of the importer or his family or household or for the use of the importer for the purposes of his trade or business,

the Revenue Commissioners may, subject to compliance with such conditions as they may think fit to impose, permit such article to be imported without payment of any duty mentioned in this Resolution.

(9) That where an article could be regarded as chargeable with two or more of the duties mentioned in this Resolution, such article shall be deemed to be liable only to that one of those duties in respect of which the greatest amount of duty would be payable, and such article shall accordingly be chargeable only with such duty.

(10) That the value of any article for the purposes of this Resolution shall be taken to be the price which an importer would give for the article if the article were delivered, freight and insurance paid, in bond, at the place of importation, and duty shall be paid on that value as fixed by the Revenue Commissioners.

(11) If any person does any act (whether of commission or omission) which is a contravention of any condition prescribed by the Revenue Commissioners under this Resolution or under a provision contained in the fifth column of the Schedule to this Resolution, he shall be guilty of an offence under the Customs Acts and shall for each such offence incur a penalty of fifty pounds, and any article liable to duty in respect of which such offence is committed shall be forfeited.

(12) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

SCHEDULE.

Ref. No.	Description of Articles liable to Duty.	Percentage Rate of Duty	Percentage Rate of Preferential Duty	Special Provisions
1	Monumental, architectural, or building stone which has been dressed, polished, or otherwise worked; excluding stone which has been subjected to no process of working except sawing.	50%	33?%	——
2	Horseshoes made wholly or mainly of iron or steel.	50%	33?%	——
3	Hollow-ware of galvanized wrought iron.	30%	20%	——
4	Manufactured articles of iron or steel for use in building construction (of such types as beams, girders, channels, joists, angles, columns, posts, and tees) which are fabricated for use or otherwise advanced beyond hammering, rolling, or casting.	50%	33?%	——
5	Metal door frames, metal window frames, metal window sashes, and metal casements.	50%	33?%	——
6	Bags made wholly or mainly of paper, and imported unfilled.	50%	33?%	——
7	Blanketing and blankets, whether white or coloured, for whatever purpose intended, and also rugs other than rugs intended to be used as floor coverings.	30%	20%	This duty is in lieu of the duty imposed by Section 17 of the Finance Act, 1925 (No. 28 of 1925). Whenever the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that an article which, but for this provision, would be liable to this duty either—
				(a) is of the nature of blanketing or felt and is suitable for and intended solely for use in an industrial process other than the manufacture of blankets, rugs, personal clothing, or wearing apparel, or
				(b) is blanketing imported for use by the importer in the manufacture by him in Saorstát Eireann of personal clothing or wearing apparel for exportation under a contract providing for the supply of such blanketing to such importer for use in such manufacture,the Revenue Commissioners may, subject to compliance with such conditions as they may think to fit to impose, permit such article to be imported without payment of this duty or repay any such duty paid on such article.
8	Putty in any form and paints and distempers in liquid form, (excluding white lead either dry or in the form of stiff paste, artists' colours in tubes, and any dry colours)	30%	20%	This duty is in addition to any duty chargeable in respect of any spirits contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article, but in lieu of any duty chargeable in respect of any other ingredient contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article.
9	Filled quilts of any material and unfilled covers of any material intended to be filled with any kind of filling and to be used as quilts.	37½%	25%	This duty is in lieu of the duty imposed by Section 1 of the Finance (New Customs Duties) Act, 1930 (No. 4 of 1930).
10	(a) Toilet (including shaving) soaps, soap powders, and soap substitutes. (b) All other soaps, soap powders, and soap substitutes.	37½%	25%	These duties are in lieu of the duties imposed by Section 21 of the Finance Act 1924 (No. 27 of 1924), and Section 22 of the Finance Act, 1925 (No. 28 of 1925), respectively.
	(b) All other soaps, soap powders, and soap substitutes.	22½%	15%	These duties shall not be charged or levied on any of the following substances when imported otherwise than as a part or ingredient of any article or preparation, that is to say, sodium carbonate, sodium silicate, caustic soda, potassium carbonate, caustic potash, ammonia, borax.
11	Writing ink in liquid or powder form.	37½%	25%	This duty is in addition to any duty chargeable in respect of any spirits contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article, but in lieu of any duty chargeable in respect of any other ingredient contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article.
12	Adhesive pastes primarily intended for office use.	37½%	25%	This duty is in addition to any duty which may be chargeable in respect of any spirits contained in the article.
13	Polishing preparations primarily intended for use on boots, shoes, and like articles, or on floors, or on furniture, or on vehicles.	37½%	25%	This duty is in addition to any duty chargeable in respect of any spirits or saccharin contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article, but in lieu of any duty chargeable in respect of any other ingredient contained in or used in the manufacture or preparation of the article.
14	(a) Linen piece goods, excluding the following, viz:—	25%	Free	——
	(1) printed linen piece goods;
	(2) power loom damask linen piece goods exceeding one hundred and eighty threads per square inch;
	(3) hand loom damask linen piece goods;
	(4) painted damask linen piece goods;
	(5) turkish and chenille linen towelling piece goods;
	(6) all other linen piece goods exceeding one hundred and sixty threads per square inch;
	(7) oilcloth.
	(b) Union piece goods, that is to say, any piece goods containing any combination of the following fibres, viz:—cotton, linen, hemp, ramie, jute, and hair, excluding turkish and chenille union towelling piece goods, and oilcloth.	25%	Free.	——
	(c) Cotton tabling in the piece, including oilcloth.	25%	Free.	——
	(d) Cotton towelling in the piece, excluding turkish and chenille towelling.	25%	Free.	——
	(e) Woven articles of the following descriptions:			——
	(I) table cloths and napkins, excluding	25%	15%
	(a) damask table cloths or napkins, if made wholly, in either warp or weft, of silk or artificial silk,
	(b) painted damask table cloths and napkins,
	(c) power loom damask linen table cloths and napkins exceeding one hundred and eighty threads per square inch,
	(d) hand loom damask linen table cloths and napkins,	25%	15%
	(e) table cloths made of oilcloth.
	(2) table mats, tray cloths, teacloths, doyleys and duchesse sets;	25%	15%
	(3) towels and domestic cloths, lettered or otherwise, excluding turkish and chenille towels, painted towels, and cotton sponge cloths;	25%	15%
	(4) sheets, excluding linen sheets exceeding one hundred and sixty threads per square inch;	25%	15%
	(5) tarpaulins of linen, union, or cotton, proofed or unproofed, excluding tarpaulins of jute.	25%	15%
15	Matter printed on paper and imported in bulk quantities, excluding matter printed on paper which at importation is pasted on or otherwise firmly adhering to cardboard and also excluding unbound books, newspapers, periodicals, and articles liable to duty, No. 16 in this Schedule.	15%	10%	——
16	Stationery of any of the following descriptions, viz.—
	(a) envelopes, notepaper, writing pads;	50%	33½%	——
	(b) manuscript books, ruled or unruled, with or without headings;
	(c) commercial stationery, whether bound or not bound;
	(d) labels and tags, imported in bulk quantities;
	(e) trade catalogues, imported in bulk quantities;
	(f) tickets imported in bulk quantities.
17	Iron or steel wire, excluding the following articles, viz — barbed wire, wire netting of hexagonal mesh, cables and ropes, pins of all descriptions, nails and tacks of all descriptions.	22½%	15%	——
18	Articles manufactured wholly or partly of wood or timber (not including planed or dressed wood or timber, mouldings, staves, sleepers, scaffolding poles, telegraph and telephone poles, plywood, and vencer, imported as such), that is to say—			Where the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that the quantity of wood contained in any article liable to this duty forms only an inconsiderable portion of the whole of such article, the
	(a) builder's woodwork and component parts thereof.	22½%	15%	Revenue Commissioners may, subject to compliance with
	(b) all other manufactures of wood or timber (other than machinery, implements, furniture, articles for use in sport, scientific and medical instruments and apparatus, articles for use in coach and vehicle building, butter boxes, egg boxes, barrels, casks, kegs, and component parts thereof and tools and component parts of such manufactures.	50%	33?%	such conditions as they think fit to impose, permit such article to be imported without payment of this duty or repay any such duty paid on importation.
19	Articles of the nature of disinfectant, insecticide, germicide, verminicide, vermicide or fungicide which pass in commerce under the designation of a proprietary or protected trade name.	22½%	15%	——
20	Cast iron articles of the following descriptions, viz.—	22½%	15%
	(a) external water and soil pipes, gutters, and connections;			——
	(b) sash weights;
	(c) pig troughts and feeding pans;
	(d) desk and seat standards;
	(e) manhole covers and frames of all sizes whether galvanized or not galvanized;
	(f) hydrant and valve covers;
	(g) gulley traps;
	(h) cart axle boxes;
	(i) pavement light frames, with or without glass;
	(j) sky and dead lights;
	(k) grids for sewer pipes or traps;
	(l) barrow and truck wheels.
21	Superphosphates, ground mineral phosphates, and compound manures.	20%	Free
22	Handcarts and wheelbarrows made wholly or mainly of wood, and component parts (made wholly or mainly of wood) of handcarts and wheelbarrows.	75%	50%	The Revenue Commissioners may make regulations providing for the total or partial exemption from this duty for a limited period of articles liable to this duty brought into Saorstát Eireann by persons making only a temporary stay therein.
23	Complete or substantially assembled bicycles and tricycles (other than mechanically propelled bicycles and tricycles), and wheeled vehicles (not mechanically propelled) ordinarily used for the transport of children.	37½%	25%	The Revenue Commissioners may make regulations providing for the total or partial exemption from this duty for a limited period of articles liable to this duty brought into Saorstát Eireann by persons making only a temporary stay therein.
				Where the Revenue Com missioners are satisfied that an article liable to this duty is of a type designed for use by invalids or infirm persons they may, subject to compliance with such conditions as they may think fit to impose, permit such article to be imported without payment of this duty or any such duty paid on importation.
24	Photographic prints of a superficial area of not less than twentyfive square inches and printed direct from a photographic film or photographic plate.	50%	33½%	——
25	Bedding, including mattresses not otherwise liable to duty, but excluding blankets, blanketing and rugs, sheets, filled quilts and unfilled quilt covers.	37½%	25%	——
26	Cushions and cushioned seats not otherwise liable to duty, whether fixed or not fixed to any other article at importation, and also cases for such cushions and seats which are not otherwise liable to duty.	37½%	25%	——
27	Any of the following articles made wholly or partly of steel or iron, that is to say:—	15%	10%	——
	(a) knives, knife sharpeners, forks, spoons and tongs of a kind suitable for table use, and component parts thereof.
	(b) razors and component parts thereof.
28	Photographic apparatus and component parts and accessories thereof, but excluding apparatus and component parts and accessories of apparatus for use in hospital or surgical work.	15%	10%	——
29	Gas meters.	15%	10%	——
30	Galvanized corrugated iron.	15%	10%	——
31	Pipes made wholly or mainly of wood and designed or intended for use in smoking tobacco or other substances, and also component parts (made wholly or mainly of wood) of such pipes.	15%	10%	——
32	Roof felting and felting substitutes and other like substances intended for use as roofing material.	15%	10%	——
33	Floor coverings, including carpets and rugs not otherwise liable to duty, but excluding oilcloth, linoleum, and substances of a nature kindred to oilcloth or linoleum.	15%	10%	——
34	Manufactured articles which are made wholly or mainly of brass, tin, or lead, or any combination of brass, tin, and lead or any two of them and are not otherwise subject to duty, exclusive of any box or other container which at importation is filled with other goods.	15%	10%	This duty shall not be charged or levied on any article which in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners is specially manufactured and designed for use by the proprietors of dairies and creameries in the processes of their business.
35	Appliances, apparatus, accessories, and requisites for sports, games, gymnastics, and athletics (other than personal clothing and wearing apparel, boots, shoes, slippers, goloshes, sandals and clogs) and component parts of such appliances, apparatus, accessories, and requisities.	15%	10%	——
36	Cordage, cables, ropes, and twine of hemp or like materials.	15%	10%	——
37	Knitted fabric of all descriptions imported in the piece, excluding Knitted fabric composed entirely of silk or artificial silk or a mixture of silk and artificial silk.	45%	30%	Whenever the Minister for Industry and Commerce is satisfied that knitted fabric liable to this duty is not manufactured in Saorstát Eireann in quantities sufficient for the requirements of manufacturers in Saorstát Eireann of personal clothing or wearing apparel, the said Minister may at his discretion issue to any person a licence to import into Saorstát Eireann knitted fabric of all descriptions or of any specified descriptions or description, either without limit as to time and quantity or either of them or within a specified time or in a specified quantity, subject to the condition that such knitted fabric shall be used in the manufacture in Saorstát Eireann of personal clothing or wearing apparel and to such other conditions as the said Minister shall think proper to specify in such licence.
				The Revenue Commissioners shall admit without payment of this duty all knitted fabric which is imported into Saorstát Eireann under and in accordance with a licence issued by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the foregoing provision.
38	Mechanical lighters, that is to say, tinder boxes, tinder lighters, and other mechanical and portable contrivances for producing a spark or flame.	37½%	25%	——

Mr. Blythe

I do not know if it is intended that we should discuss Resolution 7 in the way an Estimate is discussed by taking the various reference numbers and going down them?

An Ceann Comhairle

My intention was to allow discussion in that way but, in view of the difficulty of getting through the business by 10.30, I am not sure whether that course can now be followed. It would undoubtedly be the most satisfactory procedure.

Mr. M. Hayes

Would it not be possible to allow questions on each paragraph, so as to get the matter clearer for Committee Stage of the Bill?

Professor Thrift

I am quite prepared not to move the amendments in my name but to raise the points on the section.

Mr. MacEntee

In view of the number of amendments, I think it would be necessary to move that the section be re-committed to Committee on Finance.

Mr. M. Hayes

Is that because the Minister's amendments, instead of being remissions of, are additions to taxation?

An Ceann Comhairle

They seem to be slight extensions.

Mr. M. Hayes

The point is that we get shortly before 3 o'clock to-day amendments from the Minister which, instead of being remissions of, are, in fact, additions to the taxation imposed some weeks ago. The Minister requires not only our forbearance to give him all the resolutions to-day but our further forbearance to allow him to impose new taxation to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter with which the Chair can deal. The Minister is proposing to recommit Resolution No. 7 for the purpose of dealing with certain amendments.

Mr. McGilligan

Why for that limited purpose?

Mr. MacEntee

It does not make any difference.

Mr. McGilligan

From the point of view of freedom of discussion, it makes a big difference.

Mr. MacEntee

I am quite prepared to move that the Resolution as a whole be re-committed. I hope that "freedom of discussion" will not mean extension of the discussion.

Mr. McGilligan

There is no difficulty about that because the debate has to conclude to-night.

Resolution recommitted.

Mr. Dockrell

I should like to ask if artificial stone and marble chippings are included in No. 1 on the Schedule. There is another item which I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister. Under this heading Aberdeen polished granite, black and blueblack, would be included and liable to duty, and from the shop fitting point of view that is very serious. I am not aware that there is any prospect of getting this polished granite worked here, so that it becomes a purely revenue producing tax. That brings me to the fact that that is going to increase the cost of the very best class of shops in the best thoroughfares. I should like to appeal to the Minister from the point of view of the amenities of this city, because it is desirable that shops should have the very best appearance possible. It occurs to me that if the cost of this is going to be run up enormously, you are going to have a class of shop put up that will not redound to the credit of the city.

Professor Thrift

I should like to support what Deputy Dockrell has said. I have had information supplied to me which leads me to believe that it is impossible to get this polished granite work done in the State, and I would urge the Minister to reconsider the matter. I am convinced that the effect of this tariff will be to cause more unemployment, rather than to bring about employment. Most of the employment that comes from working on the stone comes after the polishing. A great deal of that kind of work, such as lettering, etc., is done on the stone here. I am informed that there is no possibility, certainly at present, of getting the granite itself polished in this State, and that the only effect of this will be that less purchases will be made, and therefore there will be less decorative work to be done, and hands will be actually put out of employment.

I want to add that in the case of marble, for instance, what has happened in similar circumstances has been that a corresponding export duty has been placed on outgoing marble from the country which supplies it, the result being that there is hardly any difference between the cost of the polished marble and the untouched marble, that each can be bought at practically the same price. The effect will be that that will mean a much higher price to the purchaser here, and therefore all the less business will result. There will be less of the final work, such as lettering, to be done, and therefore less employment will be given to workmen engaged on that work. I would ask the Minister to inquire into the matter very carefully because I am convinced that the tariff will actually cause less employment and not more.

Mr. Coburn

I should like to ask the Minister whether he has considered the great hardship that will be inflicted on contractors already engaged in the erection of buildings, for which they have estimated as long as 12 months ago, with regard to getting the dressed stone from round about Newry. The Minister is aware that very large quantities of this stone have been imported into the Free State. It is largely used by certain builders who will suffer a great loss if they are not allowed to have as much of this stone as will enable them to finish the contracts on which they are engaged. I would ask the Minister to consider allowing a sufficient quantity of that stone to be imported under licence to enable these builders to finish the contracts on which they are engaged. Dealing with the question in general, I agree with Deputy Thrift that it would be a wise policy on the part of the Minister to re-investigate the question of the import duty on stone. Take Portland stone. As far as I understand, the cost of the raw material is almost half of the finished article. In that case, it will mean very little additional employment to the stone-cutters in the City of Dublin. The fact of allowing the raw material to come in free of duty means that it is going to have a serious effect on the opening of our native quarries. I wonder has the Minister considered that aspect of the question, that it will mean that no quarries will be opened in the Free State if he allows the raw material to come in duty free. I ask him to give very serious consideration to the question of the import of Newry dressed granite under licence in connection with certain contracts.

Mr. Lemass

As regards the effect of allowing the importation of raw stone in free of duty on the quarrying industry here, of course that industry is in no worse position than it was before the duty was imposed. I agree that there is a case for consideration as to the action which might be taken to develop the quarrying industry and to ensure that stone of one kind or another from Irish quarries would replace the imported stone, where feasible. That question is being examined. As to the point made by the Deputy in relation to contractors who have entered into engagements to import worked stone from over the Border, I am afraid nothing can be done.

Mr. Coburn

It is only a few yards on the other side of the Border.

Mr. Lemass

I know the quarry to which the Deputy is referring and all the circumstances of the case that he has in mind. As it is only a few yards across the Border, it means merely importing the sawn stone across the Border and getting the work of finishing it done in the territory of the Free State, in which case no duty will be payable.

Mr. Coburn

Will the Minister allow the stone already dressed in under licence? I am informed that there is a very considerable quantity of that stone already dressed and ready to be despatched to its destination, and it would be a great hardship not to allow it to be brought in.

Mr. Lemass

Fortunately or unfortunately, there is no power under the law to admit dutiable goods free of duty in a case of that kind. As regards artificial stone, I am afraid I am in some difficulty. Monumental and architectural stone is subject to duty. As to whether artificial stone is subject to duty would depend on the amount of stone and that is a matter I am afraid the Deputy will have to argue with the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. Dockrell

What about slate?

Mr. Lemass

The question of slate is a different matter. I am proposing to amend the Resolution definitely to exclude slate from its scope. There is no need for the imposition of a protective duty on slate. It is intended therefore to make it quite clear that slate is not included in the scope of the duty. Other provisions are under consideration for the development of the slate quarrying industry. It is hoped that these provisions will be quite adequate for some time to come. I am proposing also to amend the Resolution by putting in after the word "sawing" the word "crushing," to ensure that the marble chips which had been referred to will not be covered.

Mr. Good

Does the Minister intend to let in slate slabs? Some of these slate slabs are enamelled on the face. Would that make any difference?

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy mean slate slabs intended for mantelpieces?

Mr. Good

Yes.

Mr. Lemass

These will not be subject to the duty.

Mr. Hayes

This paragraph of the schedule imposes the first duty and I would like to take exception to one thing which the Minister said without going into the details of the paragraph. In dealing with the question of artificial stone, he said that Deputy Dockrell would have to argue the matter out with the Revenue Commissioners. It seems to me that the Minister is under a misapprehension as to the functions of the Revenue Commissioners. When we have passed certain laws here it is undoubtedly the function of the Revenue Commissioners to interpret them but while we are in process of making these laws, it is for us as clearly as may be and as clearly as we can to define these laws. It is quite wrong, I suggest, for the Minister to say to a person "We say it is stone if the Revenue Commissioners think it is, and it is not stone if they say it is not." I suggest to the Minister that it is for this House now to make clear whether it is included in the definition given. It is for the Minister to say what he intends and for us in the House in the process of making the law to make clear to the Revenue Commissioners what we mean the law to be.

Mr. Lemass

I do not think Deputy Hayes really means that.

Mr. Hayes

I do.

Mr. Lemass

This duty is placed on monumental architectural stone. Something has been mentioned which is not stone. If it is not stone, it is not subject to the duty, but if there is any doubt on the matter it is for the Revenue Commissioners to decide.

Mr. Hayes

Again I say that the Minister is completely wrong in his conception of the duty of the Revenue Commissioners. It is a very difficult thing to impose a tariff and be quite clear as to what you mean to cover by the tariff. This Resolution will go down in history as the greatest example of that, but if a particular difficulty is raised, it is for the Minister to consider it on its merits and if he finds it necessary to do so to bring in an amendment to elucidate it. It is not for the Minister to say, "Here is a tariff; if you think that certain articles are not included in it, you can ask the Revenue Commissioners."

Mr. McGilligan

What is the Minister's mind in regard to this? Is the duty imposed on anything whatever in stone?

Mr. Lemass

The intention is to tax worked stone, that is, stone intended for monumental, architectural or building work which has been subject to any process except that of crushing or sawing.

Mr. McGilligan

We come to another class called artificial stone which is not stone—synthetic stone. Does the Minister want to have that taxed? The Minister says that it depends on the amount of stone. If there is only a certain percentage of stone, is that to be taxed? What is the Minister's mind on the matter? We should not leave it to the Revenue Commissioners to decide the matter.

Mr. Dillon

I suggest that there is no such thing as synthetic stone. Stone is stone or it is not stone. You can argue about that until the cows come home and you get back to the final question as to whether a thing is stone or is not stone.

Mr. O'Neill

Some previous speakers have anticipated my difficulty—the definition of what is stone. We are up against a difficulty. I am not asking anything for the purpose of creating difficulties in the Minister's mind, but the question that occurred to my own mind is this, does stone include marble? We can in this country produce black and grey marble, but we do not produce white marble. I want to know is marble included in the word "stone," because the Minister might exclude white marble which is used in ecclesiastical work and which cannot be produced here.

Mr. Lemass

White marble or any marble coming in in an unprepared state is not subject to duty. At the moment we are merely endeavouring to foster the stone-working industry.

Mr. Bennett

Is a cement slab stone?

Mr. Lemass

No, obviously.

Mr. Bennett

What is the definition of the word "stone"? Is it something produced by nature?

Mr. Lemass

Exactly.

Mr. McGilligan

That is a good definition.

Mr. Lemass

What synthetic stone is I do not know. A cement slab might be described as synthetic stone.

Professor Alton

The Minister knows that many natural stones are synthetic.

General Mulcahy

Perhaps it would simplify matters to take it down to a small point—will this apply to marbles?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

General Mulcahy

To marbles— taws!

Mr. McGilligan

Can we get that as the nearest approach to a definition— that it is really natural stone that is aimed at?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

With all respect to the people who are so interested, there is in the Minister's office a slab of what is called synthetic marble. It is crushed marble with certain binding material put into it. It is certainly synthetic, and although it is composed in the main of natural marble, it would not come under the definition from what the Minister has just stated.

Mr. Lemass

I know the material that the Deputy has in mind. That material will not be subject to duty. That is material made of marble crushings bound together by a composition of some kind. It is not intended to make that subject to duty —yet.

Mr. Coburn

The Minister must know that some beautiful specimens of monumental work can be cast in concrete or cement. Will they be subject to duty?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Coburn

It comes under the name of cast stone or cement, and it may have some effect as regards the evasion of duty.

Professor Thrift

What about polished granite?

Mr. Lemass

I have received representations in regard to polished granite and I am having them examined. My whole inclination is against giving any concession in regard to it. It seems to me that if we cannot get polished granite we can get some other material in this country. I do not wish to commit myself definitely in regard to that because it is under examination.

Professor Thrift

Would the Minister also consider the point about white marble which cannot be got here?

Mr. Lemass

A marble slab will not be subject to duty. If it is imported in the raw for working here there is no duty upon it.

Professor Thrift

Would the Minister satisfy himself as to the truth or otherwise of the statement I have made that the imposition of a tariff here will be followed by the imposition of an export duty on the marble abroad? That will lead to more unemployment.

Mr. Lemass

I beg to move amendment a2:

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 3, page 6, in the second column, before the word "Hollow-ware" to insert the word "Domestic," and after the word "iron" to insert the words "or steel, including galvanized gutters, pipes, and ridgings."

In order to make it clear, I may say that this duty applies only to domestic hollow-ware or galvanized wrought iron or steel and it includes galvanized gutters, pipes and ridgings, but not galvanised tanks or cisterns.

Mr. Dockrell

I should like to congratulate the Minister on that definition. I may say that the proposal originally left the trade gasping as to what was meant. As regards galvanised gutters, pipes and ridgings, has the Minister assured himself that there is an adequate source of supply?

Mr. Lemass

I have examined the matter fairly fully and I am satisfied that the existing concerns are quite competent to supply all the requirements of the country in relation to the articles subject to duty.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister has indicated that there is an adequate supply of these commodities in this country. I will refer particularly to galvanised buckets, which are, as we all know, very widely used by the agricultural community. If the Minister imagines that he can put on 30 per cent. on Continental buckets and 20 per cent. on British buckets without increasing the price to the small farmer in the Free State, he is living in a fool's paradise. Unless the Minister takes legislative powers to ascertain the current prices in England and enforce those prices on the manufacturers here, it will mean that the cost of those articles is going to go up and every farmer who feeds cattle and pigs and who utilises these articles for the purpose will have to pay more.

In addition to that, a good many country people use galvanised pig troughs, a very desirable change. I do not know of any place in this country where these articles are effectively made or cheaply made. I know they were at one time manufactured, but from the point of view of price they were almost unpurchasable. It simply means now that if you put 20 per cent. on them every one using those articles will go back to the wooden trough.

Mr. Lemass

Pig troughs are not subject to the duty.

Mr. McGilligan

The cast-iron ones are.

Mr. Dillon

Are the pig troughs placed under the category of hollow-ware?

Mr. Lemass

Galvanised pig troughs are not subject to duty. Ungalvanised pig troughs are subject to another duty.

Mr. Dillon

What exempts them? Do you rule that now?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, not domestic hollow-ware.

Mr. Dillon

Then "domestic" excludes pig troughs. Am I to assume that "domestic" includes buckets?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

Buckets and pig troughs are on most farms. In my opinion if you put on a tariff of 20 per cent. you will undoubtedly increase the cost to the farmers. How you will differentiate between a bucket and a pig trough, I do not know.

Mr. McGilligan

What is the exact extension that the Minister gives to the scope of these words "domestic hollow-ware"? It is not a question of the Minister's ruling; it is a question of what we pass by way of legislation and what will be the interpretation put upon it by the Revenue Commissioners or a Court. "Domestic hollow-ware" will include a bucket but not a pig trough. Is it because the bucket is to be used about the house and the pig trough is not? Will "domestic" apply to articles used mainly in the house?

Mr. Lemass

It is intended to bring in cans and buckets and trays-articles of domestic use. There are some other things that could be made here, but they will not be subject to the duty unless they are domestic hollow-ware. As regards Deputy Dillon's point about prices, I have been assured that the prices which will prevail here will not exceed the English prices. That is a different proposition to saying that the prices prevailing here will be no higher than the prices at which we could buy English galvanised hollow-ware. There has been a consistent price cut on behalf of English firms in order to put Irish firms out of business. They succeeded in putting the major firms here out of business within recent months. That activity has been re-started and under the protection of the duty it is felt that the price cutting which operated before cannot now be successful in preventing the development of the industry. For a long period we could buy English galvanised hollow-ware in this country cheaper than they could buy it in England. That was the confirmed policy of manufacturers and it was designed to clear the market here of competition. It succeeded. The protection afforded by the duty will help to alter the situation that previously existed.

Mr. Dillon

In short, the duty will raise the price.

Mr. Lemass

In so far as the price prevailing was uneconomic, was a dumping price designed to destroy Irish industries, there will be an increase up to the economic price, but we will be paying no more than the English people are paying.

Mr. Dillon

I venture to question that.

Mr. Good

Suppose the particular commodities that the Minister has mentioned that are manufactured in galvanized wrought iron are brought in here as ordinary wrought iron and galvanized here, will they be admitted free?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Good

The galvanizing will make them subject to duty?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

Has the Minister ever yet met any group of manufacturers who did not assure him (a) that they had been beaten down in price because of the deliberate policy of English manufacturers to dump goods and so destroy Irish industry and (b) that there will be no increase in price after the tariff is imposed? Why have we not the cheapest cost of living in the world if everything is being dumped in here in that fashion?

Amendment a2 agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

We now come to Reference No. 4.

Mr. Good

The question has been raised many times as to whether there could be some definition of the word "fabrication" as applied to steel. Some people think that even the cutting of a steel joist is fabrication. Others think that because there are a couple of holes put into steel that it is fabrication. There are different interpretations of what the word actually means in its application to steel. What does it mean when applied to steel work?

Mr. Cosgrave

Has the Minister considered the case of a contractor who entered into a contract, say to construct some building, before this tax was imposed and who now finds himself faced with very heavy additional cost? I am informed that in one case the extra cost will be approximately £2,000 and in another case the extra cost will be much in excess of that figure. In what way will provision be made in respect of that, if there is any provision made? There are, of course, the two sides to the question. A person enters into a contract for a given sum, say £20,000. This particular impost will make the cost of construction £22,000. It is unfair to the builder who enters into the contract without any information as to a likely increase to be asked to pay the extra amount. On the other hand, the person who gave the order might have hesitated if he were aware that the building was going to cost him £2,000 more than the price he originally agreed to pay. In respect of that particular problem, I would like to see some solution attempted on the part of the Minister. In cases where contracts have been entered into, special provision ought to have been made to allow in the goods free of charge pending the completion of the contract.

There are very few people who normally would be prepared to spend £22,000 on a building which it was calculated last year would cost only £20,000. On the other hand, the Minister might examine the question whether builders' profits would admit of such a contraction as £2,000 on, say, a £20,000 contract. I can get particulars of one case and possibly of another.

Mr. Lemass

Personally I have considerable sympathy with the view that there might be some provision in the law, where a customs duty is imposed, that because of special hardship of the kind referred to there might be a temporary period during which the importation would take place. The situation to which the Deputy referred was effected by the fact that it was largely by accident that the goods became subject to the duty.

Mr. Cosgrave

That was one case.

Mr. Lemass

That affects the ultimate cost undoubtedly. It does not affect the builder's profits. I think it is correct to say there is a provision in the law by which a builder is entitled to increase his price by the amount of a duty if a duty is imposed that affects the cost of his material.

Mr. Cosgrave

I am not so sure of that. I am urging the other case, that there are few people who, if they were willing to accept a tender of £20,000, would just as willingly accept a tender of £22,000. A man makes up his mind as to what a thing is going to cost. He is prepared to go that distance, but he is not prepared to go the other distance although he is getting delivery of goods value for the money. The only solution I can think of in connection with such a case is to allow in the goods free of duty in respect of contracts made and in course of construction.

Mr. Lemass

I have sympathy with that point of view and will consider what can be done. At the same time, it seems to me that it is almost impossible to get a provision that would enable anything to be done and at the same time that would not enable abuses to take place. The Minister empowered to do that would have to get very wide powers and, in my opinion, the Dáil should refuse to give them. Only in cases where it was shown that hardship had been inflicted or something of that kind should he admit the importation of goods free of duty. I am afraid the powers required would be so wide that the Dáil would hardly grant them. Of course, if you were to take such powers in respect of any class of goods subject to duty, you would have to take them in respect of almost every class of goods. Every time a duty is imposed you will have cases where somebody has been caught out. The goods may be in course of shipment or actually at the port but not cleared, and in such cases, hardship is inflicted. It is impossible to see how you could do what the Deputy suggests without running great risks. We know that in another country, when the Government proposed to impose duties they gave notice of their intention to do so. As a result there was considerable forestalling, and the rushing in of goods before a particular date. In our case, we could not risk that. It was necessary to follow the method which always operated here, to impose the duty without notice and bring it into effect at once.

Mr. Cosgrave

While I will admit, with certain reservations, what the Minister has said, I do not say that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to set up an arbitrator to consider a question of that sort. Practically every contract has a stipulation that, in the event of a dispute, the matter can go before an arbitrator. We do not want in this case to confer a benefit. I suppose we may start out on the assumption that we do not want to impose any disabilities. If there be acceptance of that then it may be possible in the way that I have suggested to have justice done. One of the contracts that I speak of is to last, I understand, for four years. It is inevitable, I think, that contractors in future will hesitate before taking big contracts. If they do not hesitate they will certainly put in a provision to recoup themselves against loss. Obviously no person is going to give a contract in a case of that sort, where he does not know over a period of years what the increase is likely to be. I suggest the desirability of examining the case from the point of view of having an arbitrator appointed in these cases in which contracts have been entered into and are in course of execution so as to ensure that no injustice would occur as a result of the policy which the Government are adopting. I am quite sure that when they were considering their policy on the matter that particular complexity was not before the minds of Ministers. Now that the Minister is in possession of the facts I hope he will see that no serious injustice is done. It may be that as regards some of these contracts the man giving them would not have an extra £2,000 or £3,000. I knew a case in which the Dublin Corporation entered into a contract in which the plant and all that sort of thing came to such a sum—something like £20,000—that though the man was perfectly solvent, it actually put him to the end of his resources and he had to get out of the contract, not having the extra £4,000 or £5,000 that would allow the work to go on.

Mr. Lemass

That did not arise recently?

Mr. Cosgrave

No. It happened many years ago. The point that I wish to put is that it may be that a man may find himself at the end of his capital resources and, in that case, very serious hardship would occur not alone to the builder himself but to whoever had given the contract for the building.

Mr. Blythe

I would like to know if the Minister has been fully advised on the question he referred to, the power of a contractor to increase the price of his contract by the amount of the increase imposed on him as a result of the tariff. I know that a contractor who supplies goods is entitled, under a provision of the customs law, to raise the price of the goods that he supplies. I know one builder at least who has had counsel's opinion, and it was to the effect that the section would not cover him, that he is not a supplier of goods, that he is in a sense, if you like, a manufacturer. He has had counsel's opinion that he is not covered and would not be allowed to increase the price of his contract. It may be that the counsel's opinion which that builder got was not sound, and that the Minister has had other advice. At any rate, there seems to be doubt about it. If the counsel who has been advising my informant is correct, then there is a special hardship applying to one class of trader, if you like, which would call for the giving of some sort of exemption in regard to work already contracted for. I think it should be possible to do that. There may be some difficulty, but if the matter is confined to steel work required for buildings for which the contract has already been taken, and for no others, there should be means at the disposal of the Revenue Commissioners for checking the quantities which seem to be required.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would advise that builder to pay for a contrary opinion and to produce the two opinions to the Minister.

Mr. Lemass

I will have the matter examined as well as the suggestion made by the Deputy which I think is feasible, because as far as I know there is only one case in which fabricated steel intended for constructional purposes subject to the duty arising out of a contract was brought in.

General Mulcahy

Having examined the matter, if the Minister finds himself disinclined to introduce a provision to the effect that has been discussed here I would suggest this to him: At the present moment there is considerable unemployment in the building trade, and naturally everyone is anxious to see as much building work done as possible; but there is also uncertainty as to what other additional taxes or other increases may not be put on in the case of building materials. There is a considerable amount of talk with regard to the setting up of the cement factory. Persons anxious to engage on either big building schemes, or the building of any big institution, will, under the present circumstances, either inflate their building cost against possible risks of a rise like that, or they will be caught by any additional tax that may be put on. I think that a clearing up of this aspect of the position of contracts, after increases like this have been put on, would assist those who are running the building industry in making up their minds as to what exactly they are going to do in the constructional line at present.

Mr. Coburn

Am I to understand that the Minister is going to give favourable consideration to the point raised by Deputy Cosgrave in regard to steel girders? If so, and if, as the Minister has said, it is the only case in the country, will he give the same consideration to dressed stones? There is only one firm in Newry involved.

Mr. Cosgrave

Oh, no; I have two prisoners.

Mr. Coburn

Would the Minister give the same consideration to these materials?

Mr. Lemass

I think there is a special case where the fabricated steel is involved, because the amount of steel which might be imported under one contract might run into many thousands of pounds, and, consequently, the duty payable, if the steel had been ordered and fabricated before importation, might be very considerable indeed. I am afraid there might be a very large number of cases similar to that in which Deputy Coburn is interested.

Mr. Coburn

There is only one, and it affects a big section of the people well known to the Minister at the other side of the Border. There is no difference between the two.

Mr. Good

I understood the Minister to say that contractors were protected against these duties imposed after the contract had been entered into. Some of us were under the same impression——

Mr. Cosgrave

Do not give your case away. I am trying to settle it for you and you are going to put your foot in it again.

Mr. Good

We feel much indebted for the assistance we have had from Deputy Cosgrave, but might I point out that it was the intention that contractors and others should have such protection, as far back as 1901. The particular section he refers to, Section 10, is embodied in the Finance Act of 1901, and it is there prescribed that the buyer and seller shall be protected, and it was the intention, I am quite satisfied, when that clause was incorporated, that contractors should be included in the terms, but now it has been found that there is a question about their inclusion, and consequently an unfair and unjust liability will be thrown on them. Under those circumstances, it has been pointed out that it is only fair that such an injustice should not be thrown on them. There is, then, the other aspect of the case as to contracts entered into in the future. Of course, there the burdens would have to be borne by the building owner, but I would point out to the Minister that it is desirable that in all businesses there should be stability. If we are going to have these tariffs dumped on at intervals, it is going to affect all businesses, because supposing we transfer the liability to the building owner, and the building owner feels that if he enters into a contract of some considerable magnitude, he might become liable for additional liabilities of this particular character, he will then say: "Well, until things are much more settled, I will not enter into a contract," and in that way, work is stopped.

It is quite obvious that we want stability in these matters, if we are to get work done, and people to embark on building work. I would urge, except it were a matter of absolute necessity, that disturbance of this character should not be introduced at intervals. If that policy be adopted for the future, we have only to meet the present difficulties, and I think they may be met, if the Minister will inquire into the matter and see if something cannot be done by way of amendment to widen the scope of that particular section, so that it will carry out all that I am quite satisfied it is intended to carry out, that is, that if the words "buyer" and "seller" in that section of the Finance Act were enlarged, say, under a definition in the new Finance Act. I think it would get out of the difficulty in a simple way. I agree, however, with what Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy Blythe, and Deputy Mulcahy have said, that it is an injustice to throw this liability on to an individual who is carrying out a contract, and which he entered into, either six or twelve months previously, without any idea in his mind or without making any provision in his contract against such an emergency. To ask that man to pay a large sum of money in those circumstances, I think, is quite unfair, and I am quite sure it is not the intention of the Minister. If something can be done to get out of that difficulty, it will satisfy those engaged in the industry.

Mr. Broderick

Would the Minister also take into consideration a matter on which I have been in communication with him—a factory which, also, has contracts dependent on the importation of metal casings and which is seriously compromised at present. Would he take into consideration the matter of allowing the completion of their contracts on the same terms as requested by Deputy Cosgrave.

Mr. Lemass

The point raised by Deputy Good is a somewhat different one. My advice is that contractors are safeguarded under the section of the Finance Act of 1901 to which the Deputy referred.

Mr. Good

We have had legal advice from two of the most eminent men in the City that we are not protected. That is the difficulty. We do not want to slip down between the two.

Mr. Lemass

I will undertake to look into it.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister must have got the second opinion that I advised should be got on that point.

Mr. Lemass

Possibly. As regards the question of the metal casings referred to, I would not like to give any promise in that connection, until I got some more information about it. I have given no promise in respect of anything as yet, but I will undertake that when a very large contract has been entered into for fabricated steel——

Mr. Coburn

And stones.

Mr. Lemass

—fabricated steel, and where the building for which that fabricated steel was designed was in the course of construction when the tariff was imposed, we would consider what could be done to meet the special difficulty there arising. If the Deputy will forward particulars of the case he is interested in, I will see what the situation is.

Mr. Broderick

I will undertake to give those particulars.

Mr. Lemass

As regards the point raised by Deputy Good as to the need for stability, I appreciate that, and that is why I am anxious that we should get the position clarified and our intentions known in respect of these things, and to leave the position then as it stands.

Mr. McGilligan

This thing divides itself into the question of existing contracts and future contracts. The point about existing contracts again divides itself into the position of the contractor, and the position of the person for whom the building is being erected. I understand that, although no promise has been given, the Minister's attitude is that the contractor is protected under the old clause of the 1901 Act.

Mr. Lemass

That is quite right.

Mr. McGilligan

But there is considerable doubt about that, and would it not be a good thing to clear it up? I take it that the Minister's sympathy, at any rate, is with the contractor, and that he would like to see the provisions of the 1901 Act clarified to make their position clear, beyond shadow of doubt. If that is so, it will mean a very small amendment, and we have had amendments, from time to time, for the purpose of clearing up doubt when it has appeared, but that does not get away from the difficulty that arises in a case of existing contracts—the difficulty of the purchaser or the person for whom the building is being put up. If the contractor can pass on the amount, then the person, say, who has contracted for some building with, say, £20,000 worth of steel work in it, is going to find himself landed with an additional five or six thousand pounds, and the question is one of protecting that person. Clearly, that steelwork was never going to be done here, and, clearly, a person who has entered into a contract cannot get out of it. I am not speaking of the contractor, but of the other party to the contract—a contract entered into in good faith— the person for whom the building is being put up. He may contract, at a certain price, subject to certain contingencies and fluctuations, as is always the case. Suddenly, there is to be put on a building which would have £15,000 to £18,000 worth of steel an addition of one-third. That is a a tremendous hardship and that is not the contractor's case if he can take advantage of the 1901 Act, the cost is going to be passed on. Suppose the contractor has not got protection under the 1901 Act, our sympathies must shift back to him. He has entered into a contract to do a particular piece of work at a particular price and he suddenly finds that one item of his constructional costs has gone up by one-third. Some sympathy should be extended to that person in relation to a duty put on an item in a contract bona fide entered into, not by way of forestalling but as a matter of business. If the Minister desires to clear up the contractor's position, that is easily done, because it only means a clarifying amendment to the 1901 Act setting forth that those terms "purchaser" and "seller" and so on include all that we intend them to include. The other part of the contract must be looked to but we must leave that to see what will come from the Minister on the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. It is a case for sympathetic consideration, and it is not a case into which any item of forestalling could enter. We are told that to do anything of that nature would give terrific powers. If the Minister is afraid of taking too great powers to himself or to the Executive Council, if he looks at amendment 23, he will see what startling powers are being sought by the Minister for Finance. The powers there will lead to something in the nature of a rival to the Hospital Sweepstakes, because there will be an element of gambling in relation to forestalling that was never thought of before. In future contracts, the great consideration is stability. Nobody is going to enter on the construction of any premises into which steel work enters on the basis of existing prices, because nobody will know what addition to the final price is going to take place. I think that there should be some declaration as to when the Ministry shall have come to the end of their tariff policy in regard to all these matters that enter into building construction so as to give the public security in respect of the building of private houses. It would be well to have some statement from the Minister also as to when he believes steelwork is going to be fabricated, in the more general sense of that word, here and at what price to the consumer, in comparison with the present price, that fabricated steelwork is to be sold.

Mr. Coburn

There is another aspect of that question to which I should like to draw attention. Even assuming the contractor has power under the Act of 1901 to recoup himself for losses sustained as a result of this import duty, it is a well-known fact that contractors, as a rule, do not like to bring their clients to court. In many cases, they would prefer to suffer a loss. That applies, particularly, to certain types of men, and it is another reason why the Minister should give sympathetic consideration to the suggested remission of this duty on building material.

Mr. Dockrell

Is expanded metal covered by this Resolution?

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid I cannot answer that question. I am not clear as to what expanded metal is.

Mr. Dockrell

Mild steel, expanded.

Mr. Lemass

I would require notice of that. If it is steel which has been advanced beyond hammering, rolling or easting, it would be covered.

Mr. Good

It has been machined.

Mr. Lemass

Then, it is subject to duty. With regard to the points raised by Deputy McGilligan, I am satisfied that all the fabrication of steel that is, or is likely to be, required, can be done by existing firms engaged in the industry here. One firm, if not two firms, is at the moment opening works, or proposing to open works, for the purpose, so that the capacity of the industry to meet the requirements of the country will have been increased in a very short time over what it was when the duty was imposed and at that time the existing firms were capable of supplying our requirements. As regards price, the Deputy is, I think, aware of an arrangement which put constructional firms here at a considerable disadvantage with competing English firms. These English firms get a rebate from English steel manufacturers which is not available to Irish engineering firms. Consequently, it was always possible for the English firms to underquote the Irish firms, particularly in contracts for public buildings, where British steel was always specified. It is intended that this duty will go part of the way towards redressing that position in favour of the Irish firms. The point concerning the position of contractors is being looked into, but it is intended that we shall get done in this country all the fabrication of steel that can be done—and all of it can be done here. The boring of holes and the cutting of bits off the end, to which Deputy Good referred, can be done here. It is our intention that it shall be done here. If it is done elsewhere and the steel is imported, it will be subject to duty.

Mr. Good

If a steel oist cannot be cut, I do not know where we will be. If you require a joist six feet long and it is cut out of one twelve feet long, does that mean that it comes here as "fabricated steel?"

Mr. Lemass

The intention is that if steel comes in shaped, cut, bored and all the rest, for erection, it shall be subject to duty. All that shaping, cutting and boring can be done here.

Mr. Good

I know what is in the Minister's mind, but we will have to get a definition on Committee Stage. I see a lot of difficulty in the matter.

Mr. MacEntee

So far as expanded metal is concerned, cannot adequate substitutes be obtained here?

General Mulcahy

As regards Item 5—metal door and window frames, etc., the Minister for Local Government and Public Health a few days ago announced increased grants for housing. His proposal in regard to new houses in urban districts is to increase the grants from £40 to £60. That is an increase of £20. I am given to understand that in the case of a house valued at from £800 to £1,000 the increased cost that will arise in respect of a set of metal door and window frames in consequence of the tax will be £15, so that, so far as the erection of new private houses in the city of Dublin and in the towns throughout the country is concerned, bang goes £15 of the £20 increase. I should like to have some information from the Minister as to the expected developments in the manufacture of metal door frames and metal window frames in this country.

Mr. Lemass

One firm has been engaged in the manufacture of these things and another firm is about to engage in it, one in Dublin and the other in Cork. The position is that we can do without metal doors and window sashes, as, generally speaking, wood is used to a much larger extent than metal. Now that a duty is imposed upon builders' woodwork, Irish firms engaged in the production of these doors and sashes and the like, having much larger orders available than would have been available before, are in a position to get down to the point where they can produce supplies for building contractors at prices which are equal to, or almost equal to, those at which the imported material can be supplied. Metal door frames and window sashes and the like are available. The cost at which they are available is slightly higher than that at which they could have been imported. That is due to a variety of causes. It is not due to any excessive profit-taking or anything like that, but to certain higher costs of production involved here. In so far as people do not wish to use this class of material, or to pay the cost involved, there is always the wooden door frame and sash to fall back upon.

Mr. O'Neill

Will the Minister include in that leaded lights?

Mr. Lemass

They are subject to duty as cast-iron. They come under the cast-iron duty.

Mr. Dockrell

Leaded lights are cast-iron !

Mr. Lemass

I take it what the Deputy was referring to was the cast-iron frame with glass panels in it.

Mr. Dockrell

Does that make it a leaded light?

Mr. O'Neill

I was referring to No. 20 (J) "sky and dead lights." Do they come under that?

Mr. Lemass

I think so.

Mr. O'Neill

Leaded lights cannot be cast-iron.

Mr. Lemass

If they are not cast-iron, they are not subject to duty. Sky and dead lights of cast-iron are subject to duty.

Professor O'Sullivan

The Minister said that the costs of these articles at present were slightly higher than those imported. He means before the imposition of the tariff, I presume.

Mr. Lemass

The costs of production here are slightly higher than on the other side.

Professor O'Sullivan

And the cost of the articles here was slightly higher as a result before the imposition of the tariff. Naturally, he expects they will be much lower as a result of the tariff.

Mr. Lemass

In so far as selling price can be reduced, following increased production, that reduction will take place. There are a few honest men left.

Mr. O'Neill

I raised the question because I know that the Minister would be anxious to protect an Irish industry —the Irish stained glass industry. It is at present suffering from fierce foreign competition.

Mr. Lemass

Certain representations which I have received in respect of that industry are at present under consideration, and I would not like to make any promise in respect to it, because there are a number of complications involved.

Mr. McGilligan

As to No. 6, I should like to find out what production there is in the country of paper bags.

Mr. Lemass

The total import of paper bags in 1930 was 1,181 tons. The total home production in 1929 was 1,878 tons. The total requirements of the country are roughly about 3,000 tons, of which the home industry has been supplying roughly two-thirds.

Mr. McGilligan

Is there any differentiation between the type of bags made at home? I think the only mill which makes one kind imports the light brown paper.

Mr. Lemass

There is a certain type of bag made from paper, manufactured in the country. There are certain bags which are made from imported paper. In so far as common brown paper bags are concerned, practically the whole trade, or very nearly the whole of the trade, is in the hands of Irish firms, both in the production of the paper and the bags. There are other firms engaged in the manufacture of bags for which imported paper is required. There is quite a number of these firms here, and one additional firm has started since the duty was imposed. Between them, they are competent to supply all the requirements of the country.

Mr. McGilligan

In all the varieties required if the package tax is kept at its present point? The Minister must know that the packing at present is a very specialised industry. Packages are made with a variety of aims. Some are hygienic. Others are show containers. In the main, paper or cardboard is the foundation of most of these containers. But where some sort of liquid or viscous type of stuff is being put up, the container has to be of a very specialised type in order not to have any deleterious material introduced into the substance being packed. Has the Minister an appreciation of the limited variety of paper that is being turned out, or is likely to be turned out, and the enormous varieties of paper required for these containers?

Mr. Lemass

None of the firms who are engaged, or who are proposing to engage in the package industry has yet produced to us a packet which we were not able to get for them in the country. Some of them may not have come to us for a solution of their difficulties, but any of them who have come to us we were able to put in touch with firms capable of supplying their requirements. I am glad to say that, in the majority of cases, they were capable of supplying the requirements at a lower price than these firms were able to get their requirements made before, in some cases, very much to the astonishment of the individuals concerned.

Mr. McGilligan

I should say so.

Mr. Lemass

Thirty per cent. lower in one case.

Mr. McGilligan

Could the Minister circulate details, even privately, of the firms to which he refers, and the varieties of paper to which he is referring?

Mr. Lemass

I shall do that.

Mr. Dockrell

On No. 8, I should like to refer to a question that I asked some days ago as published in the Official Report, column 1589:—

Mr. Dockrell: What I want to find out from the Minister is if paints and distempers in dry form and in paste form are included or excluded?

Mr. Lemass: The duty applies only to paints and distempers in liquid form.

I take it that that is as clear as anything could possibly be that distempers and paints in paste and dry from were not dutiable. I now see an amendment on the paper, after the word "liquid" to insert the words "or paste". Does that mean that the Minister has changed his mind since he answered the question?

Mr. Lemass

No. I move the amendment, C2:

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 8, page 7, in the second column, after the word "liquid" to insert the words "or paste".

The amendment is intended for the purpose of clarification only. It was intended that paint in liquid or in semi-liquid form, or paste form, if we may call it such, should be subject to duty. There is considerable difficulty in determining whether paint is liquid or solid. As a matter of fact when the average paint tin is imported the top is quite liquid and the bottom is quite paste until it is stirred up. It is impossible to distinguish between liquid and paste and it is necessary for the purpose of making everybody know what the duty applies to, that the words "or paste" should be inserted. It will be clear that the only paints excepted from the duty will be those in a completely solid form with one or two exceptions mentioned. It is quite clear that we will have a number of additional concerns engaged in the production of these things in a very short time. There are five or six firms engaged in the manufacture of these paints and colours at the moment and two, at least, of them are undertaking fairly extensive additions to their plant. In addition, some other firms are proposing to engage in this industry, and it seems to me that there need be no fear of any scarcity of supplies. As a matter of fact, the competition will be sufficiently intense to ensure that minimum prices will be charged.

Mr. Dockrell

With all due respect, the Minister's reply is anything but satisfactory because there are three distinct classes of paint imported. There is paint or distemper in dried form, and there is this paste form and the liquid form. My precise question was in order to elicit information. I may say that for some days past other people and I have acted on the assumption that it would apply to liquid form only. It is a terrible thing to find that a couple of days, after the Minister has given an answer in a most categorical way——

Mr. Lemass

The answer I gave to the Deputy was to quote for him the words of the Resolution.

Mr. Dockrell

With all due respect I asked whether paints in dry form or paste form were included and your answer was that only the liquid form was included.

Mr. Gorey

He mended his hand since. He gave away the show.

Mr. Dockrell

What I wanted to find out from the Minister was whether it applied to distemper or paints in a dry form and the Minister replied that the duty only applied to distemper or paint in a liquid form.

Mr. Allen

Is paste not liquid?

Mr. McGilligan

Why the amendment then?

Professor O'Sullivan

Obviously not.

Mr. Dockrell

I submit the question was absolutely beyond doubt and the answer I received was beyond doubt. Of course, the Minister, just like everybody else, is entitled to change his mind. There is one other fact which I would like to point out to the Minister. Some of these distempers are composed, as to one-third, of carrageen moss. I do not know whether that makes any difference. It is no wonder that the quays are congested if you get an answer one day and a few days afterwards you find an official amendment different in every way from the reply you got.

Mr. O'Neill

The Minister has mentioned putty in any form. What exactly has he in mind? This is one of the things about which the Minister might have made a joke but I do not intend it as a joke. What is putty?

Mr. McGilligan

Is it liquid or paste?

Mr. Lemass

I have never seen it in liquid form.

Mr. O'Neill

This is a very important thing. There is a powder called putty as well as the paste used for glazing windows.

Mr. Lemass

Putty in any form is subject to duty.

Mr. O'Neill

What is putty?

Mr. O'Connor

There is lime putty.

Mr. MacEntee

What is bread?

Mr. O'Neill

Flour, yeast and salt mixed together.

Mr. Lemass

I will see if I can get the Deputy a chemical analysis.

Mr. O'Neill

I do not want an analysis. If you get a definition of putty it may include a lot of things you have not in your head.

Mr. Corish

I would like to ask the Minister if there is a duty on a certain form of paint that comes in here. It is a mixture of bitumen for treating walls to prevent dampness. If it is subject to a tariff, it is not being manufactured in the country.

Mr. Lemass

I will have that point inquired into. Let me say that it is proposed at a later stage to ask the Dáil for power to admit free, under licence, paints that may be required by manufacturers in the Free State where we are satisfied that such paint is not being made here. There is one item especially in contemplation, a certain form of cellulose paint used by coach-builders and others. It is intended to take power to permit them to procure supplies of that without its being subject to duty. It is not possible to get a definition which will permit of its explicit exclusion as the same definition would cover certain classes of commercial paints which are made here and which there is no desire to admit free. The intention is to ask for powers but we may not discuss that matter now.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

In connection with Ref. No. 9, I want to ask are quilts bedding or are they not?

Mr. Lemass

I shall answer that.

Mr. McGilligan

Why are they not under the heading "Bedding" No. 25.

Mr. Lemass

I shall look into that point.

Mr. McGilligan

When the Minister is considering it will he also consider what is the difference between a quilt filled or unfilled, a counterpane and a bedspread? I understand, according to the description, they are subject to different taxes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Reference No. 10—Soaps.

Mr. McGilligan

As regards soap substitutes, will it be a substitute which has some item ordinarily connected with soap in it, or which is in some way analogous to soap? It does not mean something that a person could use instead of soap?

Mr. Lemass

This duty has been in force for some years. We are merely increasing the rate. The Revenue Commissioners have definitely established regulations in that connection.

Mr. McGilligan

You are keeping to the old regulations?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Reference No. 11—Writing ink in liquid or powder form.

Mr. Alton

Are writing inks of different colours made in the Free State?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would like to ask the Minister if indelible ink is included?

Mr. Lemass

I take it, it is.

Mr. Cosgrave

I do not think it is manufactured here, nor is it likely to be. Perhaps the Minister will make enquiries. In any case the importations are small.

An Ceann Comhairle

Reference No. 12—Adhesive pastes.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Minister satisfied that the description "primarily intended for office use" will be reasonably interpreted by the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. Lemass

I think so. It is intended to cover paste made up in handy form and suitable for office use. The Deputy is no doubt aware of the jar of paste, of one kind or another, to which I am referring.

Professor Thrift

It means the ordinary purchaser will have to pay more for his paste.

Mr. Lemass

He can get it of Irish manufacture, and cheaply, too.

An Ceann Comhairle

Reference No. 13 relates to polishing preparations. Reference No. 14 deals with linen piece goods.

Mr. Lemass

In connection with the whole of the duties imposed in No. 14, an application was made by persons engaged in this industry to the Tariff Commission and the Tariff Commission reported favourably on the application. The duties imposed herein differ somewhat from those recommended by the Tariff Commission. They are, in fact, slightly less than those recommended. The Report of the Tariff Commission will be published shortly; there is an arrangement to have it printed and circulated.

Mr. Dillon

What is meant by oilcloth? I refer to item (7) of Reference No. 14.

Mr. Lemass

Oilcloth is excluded from the duty.

Mr. Dillon

Does that mean linoleum?

Mr. Lemass

No. It means linen cloth subject to an oiling process of any kind.

Mr. McGilligan

I notice that if we take the whole run of No. 14, item (7), under (a), oilcloth, is excluded. That is oilcloth which has a basis of linen. If we go on to (b) we see a reference to oilcloth which has a foundation of union and it is also excluded, but when you come to cotton—

Mr. Lemass

There is a misprint there. The word should be "excluding." In the first line of (c) "including" should read "excluding."

Mr. McGilligan

That means then that the material commonly called American cloth, with a waterproof top on it, is excluded entirely, no matter what the foundation?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

It sometimes has a foundation of jute; but so far as linen, union, and cotton are concerned these are excluded?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, excluded.

Mr. McGilligan

There is an enormous number of articles brought under Reference Number 14. I expect the only way I can deal with them is by putting down amendments hereafter to exclude certain articles. There are certain things which, if they are made in the Free State at the moment, are not made in any quantity. I understand that quite an amount of linen goods are not being made in the country and are not likely to be made for a considerable time. If we get the Tariff Commission Report before the Finance Bill is taken, it will be extremely helpful.

Mr. Lemass

I will try to expedite its circulation.

Mr. Dillon

In regard to (5) of Number 14—tarpaulins—I observe there is a preferential rate of 15 per cent. The consumption is very small, but where there is consumption it is very necessary. It could hardly pay anyone to go into the tarpaulin trade. It is difficult to get good tarpaulin because frequently it is exceedingly defective and subject to rot. Very few manufacturers can make tarpaulin. As far as I know they are English.

Mr. Lemass

Is is quite clear we can supply all our requirements in these things? In fact, we have quite a substantial export trade in most, if not all, of these items referred to in (e). Our export trade is larger than our internal trade.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister look into the question of tarpaulin?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Reference Number 15—matter printed on paper.

Mr. Lemass

I beg to move amendment C2:—

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 15, page 9, in the second column, before the word "Matter" where it first occurs to insert in brackets the letter "a" and after the word "Schedule" to insert in the second, third, and fourth columns the following:—

((b) Books printed in the English language (excluding books chargeable with any other duty)—
(i) books which, in the opinion of the Revenue. Commissioners, are works of fiction;	15%	10%
(ii) (other than books included in the next preceding sub-paragraph) printed in Saorstát Eireann and bound (otherwise than in paper covers) outside Saorstát Eireann;	50%	33?%
(iii) books (other than books included in either of the preceding sub-paragraphs) bound in leather or any material which is an imitation of leather.	15%	10%

Various representations have been made in the matter of books and, after giving careful consideration to them all, it has been decided to amend the duty as set out in the amendment. If the Resolution is amended as we suggest, the duty will apply, in the first place, only to books printed in the English language. In the case of books which are, in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners, works of fiction, there will be a duty of 15 per cent. with a preferential rate of 10 per cent. That is to a large extent a revenue duty. There is, of course, a very substantial industry in the printing of cheap works of fiction here and, as some Deputies are aware, there is one firm in Dublin with a very substantial export business in these goods.

Mr. Cosgrave

Will this tariff injure it?

Mr. Lemass

Quite the contrary; it is calculated that this tariff will assist it in a fairly substantial way. The second paragraph relates to books printed in the Saorstát and bound abroad. Representations have been made by those engaged in the book-binding industry here, particularly on behalf of the Guild of Bookbinders, that a recent development which has taken place in relation to their industry is injurious to their interests, namely, the sending of books printed here to be bound on the Continent, where the binding is done practically for nothing by children and others working in their homes. The loss of employment to book-binders here has been quite considerable.

There are, in fact, a couple of hundred of them, highly skilled workers, without employment in the city at the moment. The imposition of this duty will not restore employment to all of them, but it will go a considerable way to ensure that the practice which has grown up will stop, and that the binding of these books, mainly books of a religious nature, will be done as heretofore in the country. The third duty relates to the 10 per cent. duty on books bound in leather or imitations of leather. Most works of that kind are of a special nature. The binding can be done here and is done here. Irish bookbinders, in fact, have quite a substantial reputation for the skill with which they do that work. We realise that the imposition of a protective duty will not restore the bookbinding trade to anything like its former prosperity, but it will at any rate go some little distance while other methods of putting it on its feet are under consideration.

I might refer here to Amendment 18a. The words in brackets:—"Other than books which, in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners, are works of fiction and other than books chargeable with any other duty" should be deleted; they were inserted there by error. There is the imposition of a duty of 1½d. per copy with a preferential rate of 1d. per copy on books printed outside the Saorstát and bound in paper covers. These are mainly cheap novels.

Mr. Hayes

Nearly all French books are bound in paper.

Mr. Lemass

The intention is that the duty should apply to books printed in the English language only. It may be necessary to have a slight modification of it because of a splitting up of the Resolution. This duty will be leviable upon the cheap covered novels. In the printing of these there is also a substantial industry here. The output last year ran into a considerable number of millions of copies. The imposition of the duty will assist the industry. I went into the matter with very great care and was satisfied that this industry is likely to be assisted in a very substantial way by the imposition of this duty.

Professor Alton

The industry of printing?

Mr. Lemass

The printing of these cheap novels in the country. There are practically only two firms in these islands which are able to compete upon the very keen basis on which these things are done: one firm in the Saorstát and another in the north of England. The Saorstát firm has been able, very successfully, to hold its own in the world's market. Most of the novels sold retail throughout the world by a very well-known firm of chain stores are in fact printed in Dublin. The ability of the firm to hold its own in the market will depend largely upon its being able to keep its costs as low as possible. It will be assisted by the imposition of this duty.

Mr. Blythe

Does the net effect of these various amendments mean that books other than novels which are bound in cloth will be free of duty?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, all books other than in the English language.

Mr. Hayes

All books other than those in the English language come in free?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald

All books other than novels that are bound.

Mr. Lemass

Works of fiction printed and bound in paper are subject to the special rate of 1½d. with a preferential rate of a 1d. Bound other than in paper they are subject to the special rate of 15 per cent. with a preferential rate of 10 per cent. All other books are free of duty, except books printed in Ireland and sent abroad to be bound, or books bound in leather or imitations of leather.

Mr. Hayes

I would call the attention of the Minister to the addition to the schedule in Resolution 8: "Books printed outside Saorstát Eireann and bound in paper covers are subject to a duty of 1½d. with a preferential rate of 1d." The Minister is inserting an amendment to make this apply to books in the English language only.

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Professor O'Sullivan

Are we to understand that the distinction between importations in bulk and single copies vanishes altogether now?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Professor O'Sullivan

I mean so far as they are liable to a tariff?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Professor Thrift

Except for fiction.

Professor O'Sullivan

Books of fiction imported are now liable to a tariff, that is, books in the English language, whether they are imported singly or in quantities. I take it that single copies as well as bulk quantities are now liable?

Mr. Fitzgerald

As to books bound in leather or in imitations of leather, I presume that is really a tariff on religious books such as prayer books and Missals?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald

And there is no tariff on anything except fiction.

Mr. Lemass

That is so.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Only fiction in English and religious books?

Mr. Lemass

That is mainly the position.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Personally, to me a tax of this nature—the very conception of it—is a complete reversal of values: it suggests that the interested party in a book is the printer and the binder. There used to be the idea that teachers thought that education existed and children existed merely that they would draw their salaries. It seems to me a thoroughly bad thing for this country that there is this implication in this tax, that books exist for the purpose of providing jobs for printers and book-binders. I think that a great many things that will come under the heading of fiction are very necessary towards the general culture of this country. I read the amendments very carefully, and did not get out of them the reading that the Minister now assures us is there. What the Minister has said modifies my objection to the tax very considerably. I do not want to use the word "disgraceful," but at the same time I do think that the implication of this tax is a complete reversal of values. This tax implies that all culture exists for the purpose of providing people with jobs and, in my opinion, the whole conception of it is bad.

Professor Thrift

Could the Minister give us any figures as to the total value of the books at present being imported into the Free State?

Mr. Lemass

The classifications relate to books and newspapers, but what they except, I cannot, at the moment, say. I have only the figures relating to the first three months of the year, and the value of the importations for the first three months of this year was £146,000.

Professor Thrift

That is for books and other printed matter?

Mr. Lemass

Books, newspapers, etc.

Professor Thrift

If the Minister would take the trouble to subtract from that what he knows about newspapers, and what he knows about other printed matter—and he knows more than I do—I think he would be surprised at the smallness of the figure that remains for books, and if he will subtract from that figure again the value of books other than these books of fiction, I think he will be still further surprised at the small sum remaining to which he is applying the tariff. The reason I am asking for this information is, that, with Deputy Fitzgerald, I am convinced that, in regard to this whole tax, he is under a misapprehension, and he is doing something which is a real harm to the people of the country for a very small return. Obviously, what the Minister desires is to restore bookbinding as an industry, but the Minister, in plain language, is up against it. Book-binding is an industry that is dying. Books are going to be bound, and are being bound more and more every day, I am assured, by machinery, and the bookbinders' trade is very rapidly becoming defunct. The Minister is going to do for a very small return something which will be of permanent disservice to the people of the country.

I am convinced that the Minister is doing something which is not worth his while doing. It is not worth his while imposing this tariff on books which has put the country through a period of great confusion, with regard to books generally. It has damaged the booksellers' trade already, by reason of the difficulties they have been under in getting books, and he has encouraged the individual to buy his book direct, rather than from the bookseller, and that is a habit which will grow and increase. I understand from the Minister's answer to my question, a little while ago, that under the modified Resolution, which I admit is a very great improvement on the original Resolution, the purchaser will now have to pay his ten per cent. duty on an English book, whether he gets it direct or through a bookseller?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Professor Thrift

That is a ten per cent. duty if the book is cloth bound and a penny per book, if it is paper bound. Is that right?

Mr. Lemass

That is so.

Professor Thrift

Therefore the disability which has existed against the bookseller will not exist in future, but my contention is that the whole thing is so small, and of such little value, that the Minister would be very well advised to drop it altogether.

Professor Alton

I am, of course, postponing this amendment for the Finance Bill, but I would like to know what the Minister's opinion is of the amendment I have tabled, amendment No. 5, because it is an urgent matter, indeed. Until his decision is known, the printing of a certain number of local magazines will be suspended. I think I have explained the matter at length to him already. It is briefly this. A small inset is printed in England and distributed to certain centres in Ireland, where local editions are made, with advertisements and local announcements and news, and the result is a parochial magazine, printed in Cork, Dublin and other centres. A good deal of money is spent in Ireland on the printing, and, in Cork alone, last year, the bill for printing was between £300 and £350.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is now on a different point, and I will refer him to amendment 14 on the green sheet. I think that meets the case of the magazine he has in mind.

Professor Alton

I will keep my remarks about the tariff in general for the Finance Bill. I agree very largely with the opinions expressed by Deputy Fitzgerald, and by my colleague, Deputy Thrift, as to bookbinding in the city of Dublin. I am a person who has to get a considerable number of books bound each year, and I know the defects of the trade, and there are defects. The finer book-binding in Dublin is splendidly done, but the cost, as it is elsewhere, is pretty prohibitive. The cheaper book-binding is not done at a reasonable cost, in most cases, and is not, I am sorry to say, sometimes done as well as one can get it done elsewhere. It is a very serious item in the ordinary person's expense. I frequently had to pay more for the binding of a book in cheap form than the book itself actually cost, and the price of book-binding in Dublin has gone up. I think it has come down a little now, but it is one of the things that, unfortunately, owing to tariffs the ordinary person will have to economise on this year.

Mr. Blythe

When I was told on the second day of the Budget that this Reference No. 15 included, and was intended to include, books I was very much surprised, but, on consideration of the matter, I was not quite as disturbed as many people were, because I felt that the proposal, as it existed originally, was so outrageous and so ridiculous that the Government could not possibly stand over it, and consequently, I was expecting at least some such amendment as was put before the House to-day. That amendment demonstrates that there was no consideration at all given to the original proposal, and that having given a little consideration to it, the Government has come to the conclusion that it cannot be defended. I think that some further consideration ought to be given to this and that the original proposal should be still further reduced. The Minister was constrained to admit that so far as Item 1 (3) is concerned it is largely a revenue tax. I do not think that the revenue that will be obtained will be considerable at all and I think it is the sort of tax for which there is no real defence.

Remember that in paragraph 1, we are not really dealing with any question of bookbinding, nor with any question of printing or employment either, because I do not believe that a firm printing here will get a single order for printing in consequence of this tariff. The circulation of a single book here, of an ordinary work of fiction, leaving out school books, is so small, that the Free State trade is not going to influence any firm in placing a contract here. The result, so far as the imposition of this duty is concerned, will be only one thing, and that is, to make these particular classes of books dearer. There is no use in taking up any sort of puritanical view about the reading of fiction, or the purchase of books of fiction. I think it would be much better for this country if there was more reading—I do not really care what class of reading it is, but it would, of course, be better if it were a good class—but it would be better if there were more reading and a more extensive purchase of books in this country. There are books of fiction for children which are really of a definitely educational value. They are necessary for children. You cannot expect children to begin to read anything but fiction, and you cannot expect them to acquire the habit of reading unless you provide fiction for them, and I think that the imposition of this ten per cent. tax, while not very heavy, is a definite handicap on the provision of reading matter of a definitely educational value for children and on the provision of matter of undoubted cultural value, and in other cases, matter representing a pastime and a relaxation of a desirable type.

Really, no case remains and the amendment admits that a mistake was made. I think no other construction can be put upon it. It would be better to admit the full extent of the mistake and to wipe the tax out. I can see some point in Number 2 and even in Number 3, but where the question of binding does not come in it would be better to remit the tax altogether. All I have heard about the matter coincides with what Deputy Alton said, that one of the reasons why books are not bound here is that the cost is outrageously high and the work frequently is not up to the standard that can be obtained at lower prices outside the country. The number of books that would be sent out of the country to be bound is not so very high. Only a limited number of people do that, but there are institutions which will be hard enough hit by being obliged to have binding done here. The Minister might be satisfied with that and, perhaps, in view of the difficulties the binding people have experienced here, some attempt would be made to so organise the industry or so change the methods that it will be possible to get the binding cost here brought somewhat more into conformity with competitive prices. Where book-binding is not going to be affected and where printing is not going to be affected, where it is a mere question of revenue, the amount will be so small that it will be of no importance in the total of the Budget. I think that the Minister ought to agree in those cases to remit it altogether. I cannot imagine more than one or two works of fiction, at most, in the year being printed here in consequence of paragraph (1). Perhaps an odd author expecting a local circulation or publishing a class of fiction which would have no sale in England would get it printed here. Even at present, authors get a book of that sort published in this country. So far as books that are likely to have a sale outside the country are concerned, the sale in the Free State would represent such a small proportion of the total that it would not affect the matter at all. The Minister knows very well how extremely small the book-purchasing public is here, how undesirable it is to discourage book-purchase and the actual having of books in houses, apart from the mere borrowing of a book occasionally from a public library. The fact that children and everybody in the house have access to books is a good thing and I think this is a tax that ought to be remitted.

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Minister may have been misled somewhat when he was told that binding is done here very well and that it is not so much dearer than it is in any other place. When we talk of a book being bound, it is very often not bound, technically, at all. A book is really only bound when the stitching of the leaves of the book is actually caught on to the hinge of the book. Most books such as the Official Debates are not really bound at all. I can speak from experience. I have got books bound in France which would have cost me three times as much as the cost of the book itself, plus the binding, if done here. When it comes to what is colloquially called "binding"—when the paper is just caught at the end—there, the Minister will find it is quite different. There is no place here which can really compete in binding in that way. Within the last week or so, I happened to get a book which was printed and bound here—a very expensive book, as the ordinary prices of books go. The first thing that struck me was that the thing was thoroughly badly done. The illustrations fell out. They had not been caught in. That book was thoroughly badly bound and it was an expensive book. For less than half the cost, I think—I could not, perhaps, stand over the statement—that book could have been better bound in England. The Minister talked about certain bookbinders. Very few people can afford to have books bound. Most of them have them caught in cardboards. I think the Minister may have been misled by people talking about bound books in the non-technical sense. If it comes to the production of books in boards, as done in England, I think the Minister will find that neither price nor quality will bear comparison at all.

Religious books are very largely bought in the country and they are bought by the poorest people. The poorest person in the country when a child is receiving First Communion or is being confirmed buys a book for the child—often at a fair cost. It seems to me rather an iniquitous thing to have that poor person who wishes to provide something which is of a very high value to the child, taxed so that binders in this country should be placed in circumstances which will enable them to charge more for doing the same work than is charged in other countries under the same conditions.

Mr. O'Hanlon

I agree with Deputies Thrift and Blythe regarding the duties imposed under this heading. I think, since the Minister brought in these amendments, that he also is of opinion that these duties are not worth while, and that he is trying to patch up his original mistakes by introducing these three amendments. From the point of view of revenue, I can see reactions from this duty on certain firms in this city which the Minister knows. These absurd duties will bring very little revenue and will not bring into employment many bookbinders, while I think that there will be serious reactions from across the Channel on Dublin firms.

Amendments b (ii) and b (iii), I think, require a little explanation. Books printed in Saorstát Eireann and sent outside for binding and returned here are liable to duty of 50 per cent., with a preferential rate of 33? per cent. Books printed outside the Saorstát and bound outside come in at a duty of 15 per cent., with a preferential rate of 10 per cent. I fail to see how that is going to help the book-binding trade in this country. If a book printed in the Saorstát and sent to be bound outside is charged 33? per cent., if bound in the Commonwealth, and 50 per cent. if bound outside it, why should a book printed and bound outside the Saorstát come in at a duty of 10 per cent.? Surely, there is something wrong there. This seems to me to be a hurried attempt to patch up the original mistake of putting a duty on books at all. I ask the Minister to reconsider the whole question. If he does, I am sure he will ultimately come to the conclusion to knock out No. 15 entirely.

Mr. M. Hayes

I agree entirely with Deputy O'Hanlon, that the amendments which we have in the name of the Minister to-day indicate that the tax upon books must go entirely or, at any rate, that it must go further than it has gone already. Before dealing with that question, I should like to know if the Minister mentioned—I was a few minutes late in coming in—the amount he expects to get from the revised tariff, what the revenue result is supposed to be. I should also like to ask him whether any refund will be given to those who have already paid the duty on books.

When the original proposal was put before us it was made clear that books were taxed. Then we heard that only books coming in in bulk would be taxed and not books coming in singly to individuals. That of course really meant, and I am sure it is the cause of the Minister's change of front, that under the original scheme the Minister was going to encourage people, particularly people buying expensive books, to buy books directly. He was going to prevent Irish booksellers getting any profit. He was going to put people in the position that they could buy from abroad cheaper than in Dublin, thus giving the profits, not to the Minister for Finance nor to the Dublin booksellers, but to foreign booksellers. Also we were told that books coming in to libraries were to be exempt. I take it that has completely gone now. There is no exemption for libraries now.

Altogether, the whole proceeding in this matter indicates that in a gay moment of irresponsibility, the Government said, "What about books?—we will just see what a tax on books will be like". It has been a very serious thing for people who make their living by selling books, and it has been a very serious thing in the past three weeks for people who make their living by using books. The question of a refund is rather important. For example in spite of the Minister for Finance's statement of his intention that books for libraries would not be taxed, I was informed that the Royal Irish Academy Library had to pay duty—it was only a small amount—on books that were certainly not works of fiction, but books from a Dutch Academy. I wonder whether any arrangement has been made for a refund, because a refund is due, seeing that people who have already paid the tax on that kind of a book have paid it because of the Minister's indecent haste in imposing the tax. Tere is another point. As I understand it, the tax is entirely confined to English fiction, and to any book, whether in English or any other language, bound in leather.

Mr. Lemass

English only.

Mr. Hayes

English fiction or other books bound in leather. One would like to know whether this tax is looked at from the point of view of revenue, or from the point of view of the amount of assistance it will give to any Irish industry, whether book-binding or printing. I happen to have had an opportunity of knowing, in the course of my official duties in the last ten years, that one firm in Dublin, as the Minister mentioned himself, was able to compete successfully with English firms for the publication of cheap paper-bound novels, and, as the Minister stated, very cheap books sold by a well-known chain store were printed here and even exported to England—printed in millions. I was in these printing works and I was told that on the 31st December some millions of copies were going out to that firm—I remember some enormous figure was mentioned. I should like to stress that that trade was done without a tariff, done by organisation, by ability, and business management of a proper kind; done by Irish people under Irish conditions in Dublin, without assistance from a tariff. I wonder whether a tariff is going to assist these people to do any better. We would like to know whether the Minister has any figures to support the contention that it will.

One thing that strikes one immediately about the fiction question is that it is the cheap fiction which will not be affected. Those who read Edgar Wallace's books or any kind of cheap fiction will have an opportunity now of getting it printed in Ireland. The smaller number of people who read the better type of English fiction, for example, the senior classes in our schools, cannot get what they require here. The Minister possibly has not adverted to this fact: that one of the educational reforms introduced in this country is that, instead of prescribing a book in English for a course in a secondary school, teachers are now allowed to recommend to their class their own favourite authors or the authors who they think would be most suitable. Before that change there was a process by which you prescribed a book for a particular grade. A particular publisher got the book out and made a fair profit. He got it printed here and he was sure of a particular sale. Every boy or girl going for Junior Grade, for example, had to buy a copy of, say, "Treasure Island." That system has been changed. Teachers can now recommend such books as they please to students. The result of this tax is that that kind of book will be taxed, because there is not very much prospect of getting a separate Irish Free State edition printed here of the better class of English fiction. There is a chance of getting other classes, but not the better class.

If you take the series of books published in England, which includes fiction of a very good class, say, at 2/6—there is a new series coming out recently I think at 9d.—there will be no chance in the world of a sufficient market being found in the Free State to make the publisher get an Irish edition printed. I, at any rate, would not imagine there would be. If the Minister has contrary information, I should be glad to hear it. But, from my conversations with printers recently I never gathered that there would be any sufficient Irish market for such a series. The result will be that those who desire to avail of the cheap editions of English classical fiction will have to pay the tax, but the people who want to read the type of fiction which the Minister, in his more national and Christian moments, would like to keep out, will be able to get it free of duty. The changes made now simply illustrate with what precipitancy the matter was first considered. It leaves people who have paid the tax up to the present in a position that they must get a refund from the Minister. Considerable dislocation of the trade of booksellers has occurred, and we are now in the position that those who want to read the better class of English fiction will have to pay extra for it, and, incidentally, those who want to read the cheaper and the worst class of French fiction will not have to pay extra for it at all.

Professor Alton

Has the Minister made any provision in his amendment that books coming into public libraries will be exempt from the tax? I do not think the Minister has considered the great traffic that there is in books between this country and Great Britain in the way of exchanging and lending to students; libraries lending books for the purpose of research and study to one another. There is a considerable traffic in that way. We lend books from our libraries here and send them across, and there is reciprocation on the other side. If the Minister is not to put another stone in the way of the poor student's feet I wish he would look into this matter a little more as regards this question of exchange between libraries. A lot of these books are bound here.

Professor O'Sullivan

With regard to the general policy of which this tax is an illustration, I shall not go into it at present, as we shall have another opportunity of discussing it. I gather from the Minister that No. 1 of these is mainly intended as a revenue tariff. That is what he definitely stated. It may, to some extent, assist local industry. I wonder has he considered that it might have the very opposite effect, that it might very seriously interfere with that particular industry? He has put a tariff on books imported into this country notwithstanding that there is a big export trade. In fact, the particular firm which he refers to would depend largely on that export trade.

This raises the general question of the advisability of putting a tariff on an article in respect of which there is already a big export trade. In this particular connection, we are discussing the effect on a firm whose export trade is more important than its home trade. I think the policy itself has obvious dangers that I need not insist on, but I gathered from the Minister that the main purpose of paragraph B 1 is to impose a revenue tax. That being so, the principal effect undoubtedly will be that which everybody has emphasised, to increase the price of reading literature for the people of this country. The complaint has often been made, and I fear with a certain amount of justification, that we are not a reading public and still less a book-buying public. That has its disadvantages so far as the general outlook of the country is concerned. I fail to see how that will be improved by the imposition of what the Minister has said is a revenue tax. The Minister will surely not contend that a man buys a book which is cheap literature merely because it is printed in Ireland. There are a number of us who buy various materials because they are made in Ireland, but I think people generally buying fiction have an entirely different motive and the fact that it is printed in Ireland will have very little to do with the choice of the actual purchasers. That, of course, will be only bearing out what the Minister has himself acknowledged, that this is a revenue tax so far as paragraph B 1 is concerned.

As regards B 2, it refers only to books printed in the English language. So far as the great bulk of book buyers are concerned the books we buy unbound are books not printed in the English language. The books we want bound are books printed in other languages. Undoubtedly, if he wanted to help the bookbinding trade he would not do what he is actually doing in sub-section (2). So far as the ordinary individual is concerned, he has these books printed in other languages on his shelves and he leaves them—unbound, unfortunately, as most of us know, because the cost of binding is altogether too much. The cost of binding books is excessive. I think, as the Minister himself has admitted by imposing a tax on these books he is imposing a tax on the reading public. That is the main purpose of this as it stands. Deputy Hayes has clearly indicated the various stages through which this tax has gone. Again, I would like to point out that the Government has yielded to pressure from large consolidated interests. In doing so, the Minister was quite right, but that does show the extreme haste with which these taxes were imposed in the first instance. That is an aspect of the matter we can discuss when we are dealing with the tariffs imposed by this Schedule and Schedule 8 as a whole.

Mr. MacDermot

I desire to say only a few words. I object on principle to a tax on books at all, but assuming that there has to be a tax on imported books, I would like to suggest that it should be properly arranged. There is a great deal of rubbish printed that is not fiction. There is a great deal of rubbish printed in languages besides the English language. Instead of discriminating in the way in which it is proposed here, I would suggest that an attempt should be made both on cultural grounds and financial grounds, because I know it would be a method that would produce most revenue, to tax worthless books and to let in classics. In other words, I suggest that a time test might be imposed. If a book has been printed for 50 years and is still being read, it can be assumed to have some value. If you are importing works of art into the United States of America you have to pay a customs duty on them unless they are 100 years or more old. After the lapse of that length of time it is assumed that they are of cultural value to the country. I suggest that English classics and in fact the classics of all countries which have been written for 50 years or more should be allowed in free of duty. In other words, if it is desired to raise revenue in this way and to tax books, books of all countries written less than 50 years, whether in the English language or any other language, should be taxed and books written a longer period should be allowed in free.

Professor Thrift

I hope the Minister will yield to the opinions which have been so strongly expressed that this book tax is not advisable. If we are unsuccessful in persuading him of that, I hope that we shall be successful in persuading him that he should not try to get a revenue tax out of educational libraries. I am not now referring to the ordinary circulating libraries. I am referring to libraries such as the National Library and the library attached to the institution with which I am connected which is conducted purely for the purposes of education. Whatever the Minister may do with reference to general fiction, I most strongly hope that he will yield on the matter of these educational libraries. I want to point out that there is much more involved in putting a tax on these libraries than the mere payment of the tax. The extra trouble that would be entailed on educational libraries in looking after books in connection with a duty of this kind would mean a very considerable expense in the administration of the library. That is an expense in connection with the library with which I am associated that I simply could not face with equanimity. It would have an extremely bad effect on the manner in which that library carries out the function of providing books which are merely there for educational purposes. I hope that on that point, at any rate, the Minister will yield.

Mr. O'Neill

I appeal to the Minister to abandon this tax if he can possibly see his way to do so. In the first place it will not bring in anything like the amount of revenue he imagines. It is also a tax about which there is a good deal of feeling in the country. It is one that is likely to make the Government very unpopular. It is extraordinary that, having survived the Penal laws and the limitation of opportunities for education of the people, a native Government should now come along and put a tariff on the educational and intellectual progress of the people. That is the way in which the matter is being looked upon in the country, and it is likely to have some unpleasant reactions for the Government. If the Minister cannot see his way to abandon the tax altogether I think he should make an exception with regard to circulating libraries. These libraries do not all circulate fiction. Sometimes it is necessary when a person is engaged on some particular work to get a book of reference which he cannot get at home. He is obliged to go to some library such as the Times Book Club, or some other circulating library to get the use of the book for a short time. I think that if the Minister cannot see his way to abandon the tax as a whole, he would be conceding something to feeling in this matter to remove the tariff so far as it affects such circulating libraries as the Times Book Club.

General Mulcahy

One hesitates to encourage the Minister in any way by referring to the smaller details of this particular imposition, lest one might persuade him that people generally would be prepared in certain circumstances, to tolerate a tax on books. I think that a tax on books will be resisted week in and week out, until it is got rid of. For that reason one hesitates to talk of the smaller aspect of the matter. With that preliminary warning I will turn to one aspect. I would like to extend rather more widely the range of lending libraries that have been called by Deputy Thrift educational lending libraries. Let us take the county libraries generally. With the system adopted in the administration of the libraries, although the control of them is more or less repudiated by the Department of Education on the one side, and cannot be well directed by the Department of Local Government on the other, more and more these libraries are bound to become educational rather than the type of fiction-distributing machinery that they have tended to be for some time.

It is a fact that any serious student in the remotest part of Donegal or West Kerry can get through the county library any book he wants. By means of the machinery through which the county libraries operate through the central book repositories here in Dublin, books can be got from libraries in Scotland and England by the county librarians in the most remote parts of the country. I would like the Minister to consider, if there is any vestige of these books left on the face of the Budget when we are finished with it, what machinery there is for the non-taxing of books coming in in that way, or, if there is a tax, what refund will be given when these books are returned.

Mr. McGilligan

Before going into the matter of the books, I want to draw attention to an item which, I think, will be caught by the definition which originally stood alone on the paper and which is now, I understand, lettered par. (a): "Matter printed on paper and imported in bulk quantities," excluding certain things. Certain articles which come into the country at Christmas, such as crackers and Christmas stockings, are likely to be caught under this.

Mr. Lemass

Is the Deputy aware that his Government succeeded in catching them as wearing apparel?

Mr. McGilligan

That was never intended and it was discovered with horror at a late point that the Commissioners had decided, under the powers given to them, that crackers ought to be charged because the paper caps contained in them constituted wearing apparel—a most outrageous thing, and a definition that was never meant. Does this particular definition mean to catch Christmas crackers and stockings simply because there might be included in them mottoes and other things which are printed on paper? These and other items of the sort could be described as matter printed on paper and they are certainly imported in bulk quantities. What is the Minister's mind on the subject? Does he want to catch these articles or not? The type of article concerned will not, in my opinion, give very much employment here. There is not even much in the way of revenue to be derived from this tax, because the articles I have referred to come in only at a particular time of the year and they are mainly intended for the benefit and enjoyment of young people.

This book tax, even in the modified form in which it now comes, is likely to draw down upon us the ridicule of most civilised and educated people. It will possibly lead them to think that we are setting out to make this country a notable type of Boeotia. Probably we will soon find ourselves in the position of the young French lady to whom a gentleman was thinking of making a Christmas present. When he intimated his intention of giving her a book he got the reply: "Do not bother; I have one already." We presumably will get ourselves into that position with regard to fiction at any rate.

What is it proposed to exclude under the title of "fiction"? Most of the statements of the Minister for Industry and Commerce with regard to the manufacture of certain articles could be classed as fiction. What is the definition of fiction? Take a very popular edition of classical works, the Loeb Library, which gives the classical text accompanied by an English translation. There are certain books that cannot be classed as fact records. Plays by Aristophanes are not to be classed as records of fact. They must be some type of fiction. Are we to pay tax on the Loeb classical library volumes which come into the country because they contain English translations of the best fiction of a high class type that has ever been produced? Is it intended to catch that type of literature?

We have often heard the comment made that history is nothing but "a fable repeated," a fable that has gained currency. Quite an amount of history as written is alleged to be not definitely of the fact type. There possibly is a certain amount of fiction again. Are we going to have any additions made to the Board of the Revenue Commissioners, men of literary turns of mind, so as to ensure that we shall get a proper definition of what comprises fiction for the purpose of these taxes? One of the best biographical works ever written is published in fiction form. It is probably the best written account of the life of one of the foremost men in the early days of the American nation. I refer to a particular biography of Alexander Hamilton. There are probably from fifteen to twenty first-class biographies of that most notable historical figure.

Undoubtedly, the best description of his life has been thrown into the form of a novel written by an American authoress, Gertrude Atherton. It is reckoned as a first-class work. From the point of view of a student set to study biography, it is much more stimulating than any biography of the ordinary type. Yet the preface to that work includes what amounts to an apology from the authoress that she had to cast such a life into the form of fiction. It classes itself by its preface as fiction. There is certainly no life that would repay reading more than the life of Hamilton, yet we shall have to pay 10 per cent. extra on a book of that type, and if it is printed in America it will be even dearer.

There are numbers of people in this country who get their only touch with the classics from what I might call Kelly's Original Key to the Classics printed in English and dealing, of course, with matters that are not anything except fiction. Are they also to be taxed? If so, there is imposed a tariff, if not on education, certainly on the passage of examinations, which is a somewhat different thing. These, however, are matters that probably will be left to the Revenue Commissioners to decide —"books which in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners are works of fiction." Some of their judgments might pass as fiction, according to what we have heard from disappointed importers. None of the Revenue Commissioners has been chosen with that particular type of discriminatory flair in mind which would enable him to distinguish between one type of work and another. This, I understand, has been declared to be a revenue tax—a tax on reading, even though it be only on fiction.

Is it considered an undesirable thing to have the lives of the people in the country frightened by the type of reading that they like to indulge in? I do not care how worthless it may be, whether it would pass even the time test to which Deputy MacDermot alluded? If people are oppressed by the boredom of the countryside and find it necessary to take refuge in the works of Charles Garvice or Edgar Wallace, well why should they not? Are they the people from whom it is thought desirable to take the amount of money aggregated here as arising from the different taxes—a sum of £123,000? We have no indication whatever of what this in its modified form is supposed to bring in. Would the Minister venture an opinion on that now? Some tax is going to be put on. It is quite unfair and it cannot be defended on any ground, cultural or any other. Certainly not on cultural grounds; there might have been an attempt to defend it on the basis that all fiction is rubbish, but that particular judgment would not stand any test at all. This tax cannot be defended on cultural, censorship, or any other ground. It is simply put on for revenue. I would rather have extra tariffs on manufactured goods than see a tax on reading material.

There is another difficulty going to arise in the case of books bound in leather. Quite a number of prayer books and missals come in. Missals in general would be printed in Latin, but there is a certain amount of English included in the text at times. Certainly most prayer books, those of the gift type rather than of the purely utilitarian type that come in, are bound in leather and, in the main, are in English. These will fall for the tax. Is that considered to be a proper source of revenue? In the main it is going to be a revenue tax, and it is not going to be possible to get unbound prayer books sent in here to have them bound. I am referring to the type of book which a parent will give to a son or daughter on a particular religious occasion—a prayer book done up in good leather.

Mr. Corry

What about the rosary beads that the Deputy put a tax on?

Mr. McGilligan

I wish we could hear Deputy Corry on the reading tax.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy has a sardonic countenance and cannot change it.

Mr. McGilligan

Deputy Corry has made an appropriate intervention— on a tax on reading. He is the personification of the unfortunate results of a tax against reading. A useful intervention—I do not think I need say any more.

Mr. Corry

In this respect I would like to urge on the Minister that he should increase the tax on English newspapers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the Deputy is not a member of the Executive Council it is not in order for him to do that.

Mr. Corry

I would like to point out to the Minister that the "Daily Express" with a huge circulation——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is absolutely out of order.

Mr. Corry

That newspaper, with a huge circulation has dismissed some 33 hands that they had employed in Cork City, and I want it taxed.

Mr. Dillon

I want to refer very briefly to this tax. The Minister, I understand, is not in a position now to form an estimate of what the revised, amended Section 15 to the Schedule will produce by way of revenue. May I ask him has he formed an estimate of what the amended Schedule 15 will produce? What I want to suggest is that the probability of the yield of large revenue is remote. I assume that the amendments do not do away with the right of an individual to purchase an individual book free of duty.

Mr. Lemass

The duty applies to the individual book under the amendment.

Mr. Dillon

Then that privilege is withdrawn. That makes my task all the easier because I agree with Deputy Mulcahy that this is not a tariff which can be discussed in detail. The Minister must realise that the whole sense of the House is against the principle of raising revenue on literature. I do not think it is necessary to go into the categories of prayer books, fiction and so on, but the whole trend of opinion in civilised countries—I am convinced it is a trend of opinion that Ministers feel a real sympathy with— is against raising revenue from literature or placing obstructions in the way of people having free access to the literature of the world. The result of this inevitably will be to reduce the purchase of books, and as Deputy O'Sullivan said our people have an unenviable reputation for not being a reading people.

All sides will agree that is a most undesirable state of affairs. Whatever revenue is derived from this it cannot be a very large sum. I believe the Minister would do well to forego even a large sum rather than admit the principle that for the purpose of rais- ing revenue or for any purpose, other than that of protecting the public, absolutely free access to the literature of the world should not be made difficult to our people. Once this principle of taxing books or learned literature is admitted, then I fear it opens the way to very grave abuses indeed. It would open the way to a variety of abuses into which it is not necessary to go. It certainly opens the way to the frame of mind of a disinterested Deputy like Deputy Corry who, in regard to some particular publication, feels that some special penalty should be visited on it for some disinterested reason.

Mr. Corry

On a point of explanation, my suggestion was that a tax should be put on an English daily paper coming in here. It has a very large circulation. It was employing 33 hands in Cork City, and has now dismissed them for no reason whatever.

Mr. Dillon

I think I said that in a rather more delicate way.

Mr. Corry

It is the plainest way that I can put it to one of your limited intelligence.

Mr. Dillon

I stand corrected by the Deputy. To admit the principle that it is a legitimate thing for revenue purposes or for any purpose except the protection of the public to interfere with the free access of our people to the literature of the world is to open the gate wide to abuses. I am not prepared to follow some of my colleagues in their cogitations as to the frame of mind Ministers were in when they considered this tariff. I assume they considered it with the same care as the other tariffs. I do say that, having considered the economic aspect of this tariff and the representations that were doubtless made to the Minister by those employed in this particular industry, even now or at a later stage of the Bill the Minister should weigh against the grave responsibility he takes in admitting the undesirable principle of taxing literature, the very questionable advantage that he will secure for the book binding trade. If the Minister makes up his mind that the balance is in favour of literature, then it would be a handsome and a useful gesture on his part if he were to consent to remove this from the Schedule.

Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll

I, too, would like to say a word as to the undesirability of this tax. I am quite sure that all the arguments that have been used from all sides of the House, from the Independent Benches and from these benches, will have due effect on the Minister, and will soften his heart, so far as the reading public are concerned. We often hear it mentioned, at the present day, that what we used to call home life is becoming more and more a thing of the past. There are all sorts of amusements to which young people can go. They go to the "talkies" and they go here, there and everywhere. There are still, however, I must say, some homes where reading is carried on, to a great extent, and where the children are encouraged to save their pennies and sixpennies, and to buy books of fiction, and if the Minister imposes this tax on books, it will do a great deal to destroy home life, and to encourage children to spend their savings on something else. I know that younger people read what some people might call a good deal of rubbish, but, still, it gives them a taste for reading. You cannot introduce a boy or girl to the classics all at once, without having some sort of attractive reading beforehand. Such books as "Nan, An Old-Fashioned Girl," while not intrinsically of any great value, so far as improvement of the mind is concerned, are books of fiction—adventures of college girls—and I read them myself at one time. I could name scores and scores of them, and, of course, there are similar books for boys. I am quite sure that the Minister, if he gives the matter further consideration, will take away what will be a very irksome tax. Deputies have pointed out that the revenue from this tax would be very limited. The demand for fiction will be very much less, because, as I say, people will spend their savings on something else, and I would appeal to the Minister to take away this very irksome tax on books.

Professor Thrift

May I add, to what I said about libraries, something in the way of a little information. I have got before me a short list of some of the libraries that send over books to the Free State. I will just mention the London Library, the Roman Society's Library, the Mathematical Society's Library, the Hellenic Society's Library, the Carnegie Students' Library, connected with about one hundred other libraries, and these are only a few of the libraries that send their books over here. In addition, there is a very large number of foreign societies, which regularly send over their publications, and usually, these publications are bound in leather. Unless the Minister is prepared to meet me, at least on the question of the libraries, these books coming over here will form a very serious source of expense to the libraries that receive them, and it will lead to the breaking of a very valuable link between our societies here, and very many foreign societies, as well as cutting off many of the books that are supplied to this State by these foreign libraries.

Mr. Anthony

A good deal can be said for exception in the case of public libraries, but I do not find myself in agreement at all with Deputy McGilligan, particularly in regard to (b) 3, because, under this heading "books (other than books included in either of the preceding sub-paragraphs) bound in leather or any material which is an imitation of leather" thousands and thousands of prayer books have been and are being imported into this country. I called attention in this House, on more than one occasion, to the fact that the prayer books used in both the Catholic and Protestant churches are mainly printed in Belgium, or some other place. We get the very pious aspiration found on tickets handed out at Sunday schools, for instance, "Suffer little children to come unto Me," printed in Belgium. That is a thing that is quite common, and then again, you have on the prayer books, "Published by Messrs. so-and-so, in Ireland"—Dublin or Cork, perhaps, and then, you have "Printed in Germany" or "Bound in Belgium." A very big traffic has gone on in prayer books in this country for many years, and this paragraph alone would mean a good deal of employment, and I might mention in this connection, that Dublin and Cork firms have been known to take contracts out of English cities. That might, of course, be used as an argument against this section altogether, but I want to show by that that these things can be done just as well in Ireland as abroad. The skill is there, and the most up-to-date and modern machinery is there; efficient management is there, and I do not see any reason at all why it should put even a penny extra on the reading community.

The case has been made, and can easily be made that public libraries should be made an exception, especially where there is an interchange of books. I know that that does obtain, because I happen to be a member of a library committee, and I know that we get very many books, by way of exchange, from many libraries here and abroad. It will be a very serious handicap to many of these libraries, if they have to pay an extra penny or twopence duty. Many of these libraries are handicapped from want of finance, due, as has been pointed out here, to the fact that we are not a reading public. There is a fairly decent circulation for all kinds of cheap rubbish, political publications, and all that sort of thing, but there is very little sale indeed for good serious literature in this country. The books which come under the heading of fiction in this amendment will make matters very difficult, and will raise many administrative difficulties at the port. How is the examining revenue officer to distinguish between what is fiction and what is history? A historical novel, while a very attractive way of presenting history, might come under the ban of the revenue officer. I quite see the difficulty in administering (b) 1, but I feel, at the same time, that that difficulty can be got over, because as a general rule, these cheap works of fiction come in in paper covers, and, very frequently, in cheap buckram covers, so that it would not require very much expert knowledge to differentiate between what is fiction and what is not fiction, and what is scientific and what is only pseudoscientific. I intend to support this amendment.

Mr. Michael Hayes

Before the Minister replies, there is a question I would like to ask. As we got the amendment very late, it is difficult to get the exact hang of it, but one point strikes me under paragraph (b) 3—"Books (other than books included in either of the preceding sub-paragraphs) bound in leather." It seems to me that the Minister might reasonably make, in the Finance Bill, a distinction between books imported for use as distinct from books imported for sale that come under that category. I think that Deputy Thrift alluded to that point already. Take the Carnegie Central Students' Library, which is a very valuable asset to students.

It is a very valuable asset to students, teachers and persons who engage in a good type of reading. They will get you any type of book. I saw, for example, in University College, a few days ago, the proceedings of a German medical society, got by the Carnegie Library for the use of one of the medical professors in the College. Its price would be about six guineas, if it could be obtained at all. I had not this amendment in mind, and I took no special notice of the binding, but I am pretty sure that the book was bound in leather or in imitation leather. That book was got for educational use—for the use of a medical professor in the practice of his profession—and it was got free. I think the Minister will agree with me that it would be outside his intention entirely to get revenue from an institution like that or from an individual professor or any individual who obtains a book only for use. He might have it three or four months, but he would be bound to give it back. It would be difficult for a private member to frame an amendment which would cover that kind of case, but if the Minister would favourably consider the suggestion, it would be open to him, with the assistance of the Revenue Commissioners and the Parliamentary draftsman, to provide that such books, imported for use and not for sale—I know that the draftsman has an objection to mentioning any institution like the Carnegie Library—would be exempt from the operation of the paragraph that imposes a tax on books bound in leather. In the case of American and Continental learned societies, you would have books coming in which would cost four guineas and five guincas, and a 50 per cent. duty would be very considerable. It would be taxing a gift and taxing education. I am sure that that is not the intention in inserting this sub-paragraph, and I should like the Minister to give the matter consideration.

Sir James Craig

I have the greatest objection to putting a tax on anything which will prevent people from reading, but I have a particular objection to the tax referred to by Deputy Hayes—a tax on books sent from these societies. So far as the medical profession is concerned, we get many books from American and other foreign societies, and all these books will be taxed at a heavy rate. To my mind, it is most objectionable that we should have to pay a high tax on these foreign books, which are required almost entirely for reference. If we want to keep up to the standard of other countries, we must know what other countries are doing and we must get the reports of the societies of these other countries. I do not think the Minister would like the country to fall back because of having to pay a heavy tax upon its books. The impost will be very serious, particularly to persons who are teaching medicine in all its branches. As Deputy Hayes mentioned, these books cost from one to five guineas, and a tax would be very considerable.

Professor Alton

I have been looking at Item 3. The Minister has, I think, not realised that a great many of the books purchased for our libraries and by our professors are second-hand books. They are invariably bound in leather and are dear books. A 15 percent. duty, with a 10 per cent. preferential rate, will be a very heavy charge in many cases. Our books were supposed to be allowed in free under the legislation of the previous Government, but we had to pay a statistical tax of 6d. I had hoped that this Government, being an enlightened Government, being interested in matters educational, and members of which had joined me in attacks upon the late Minister for Education for not paying sufficient attention to things of this sort, would pay the freight on books in order to help scholars, as they do in Germany. In Germany, they are providing cheap books for educational institutions. Big grants are given in respect of that. Here, they are taxing us. It is incredible. I do not think the Government have thought about it. I do not believe that this is a Fianna Fáil tariff at all. I believe that some barbarian, some vandal, has crept in at night time and jammed this tariff down on their list.

Mr. Esmonde

I should like to ask the Minister for a definition of "bound in leather." Does it include half leather or "half calf," as it is known? Few books are bound in full leather. Those that are are luxuries. Most of the books that have leather in their binding are only bound in half leather.

Mr. MacEntee

Only the full binding is dealt with.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know if it is intended to dispose of this particular duty now. If it is, I would move the various amendments connected with it. There is a consequential one (d2) to delete in the schedule the word "unbound." There is another amendment (4a) which is designed to secure the deletion of "printed music" and "wall paper" from the scope of the general duty upon printed matter.

Mr. M. Hayes

We only discussed books. Some Deputy was, I think, stopped from going into the question of periodicals.

Mr. Lemass

We will leave 4a. Amendment No. 6 on the green sheet would have the effect of removing the minimum duty upon books imported. We are prepared to accept the principle of amendment No. 5, in the name of Deputy Alton, and an amendment will be introduced on the Finance Bill to meet the point. A strong case has been made for the exemption of books intended for libraries from the scope of the duty, and we will arrange to have an amendment introduced to exempt from the duty books intended for libraries other than proprietary libraries. I think that meets most of the cases made.

Professor Alton

How is it proposed to treat books coming from proprietary libraries, like London libraries, to individuals?

Mr. Lemass

It would be practically impossible to exempt them from duty. Virtually, the books are sold. Let us consider the main questiton. I cannot admit that there is any good ground, in principle, for not imposing a duty upon works of fiction if there are good grounds in principle for imposing a duty on sugar or other articles of common consumption. The amount of the duty imposed upon works of fiction is small. It is very difficult to make an estimate of the amount of revenue which will be produced, but some revenue will be produced. It is not unlikely that in respect of quite a large number of books sold here, the duty will be paid by the importer. To a considerable extent, the duty has a protective effect. Under these circumstances, it seems to me that it is completely justified. I do not believe for a moment that because of this tax one person is going to sit idly at home of an evening in the coming year who would otherwise have spent his time reading a book. The amount by which any book would be increased in price in consequence of it is trivial. In fact, even at the moment the duty upon a certain general class of books is being paid, and I believe will continue to be paid, by the importers. The duty has a protective effect. I went into the matter with great care and I was satisfied that not merely would no damage be done to any export trade which we may have in works of fiction, but, on the contrary, that the export trade would be fostered.

A wrong impression is being created by statements made that the industry here is only interested in the very low-grade fiction. The industry here is, in fact, interested and is engaged at present in producing for export as well as home consumption works which are retailed up to 2/6, and even up to 3/6. It is quite possible that we may be able to improve that business considerably. I do not at all accept the statement that the home market for the sixpenny or shilling novel with a cloth cover is a small one. It has not been found to be so. I think it is sufficiently substantial to make it a matter worthy of consideration for any publisher to have the books printed here and thus escape the duty.

The imposition of the duty upon prayer books has also been questioned. There was, and is, a very substantial trade in this country in prayer books. To a very large extent in the past the requirements of the country were met from within the country. Recently that trade has passed abroad. It is noticeable, however, that people who might otherwise be indifferent appear to object strongly to having "Printed in Belgium" or "Printed in England," or anywhere outside Ireland, appearing on their prayer books, and the mere fact that a prayer book is described as "Printed in Ireland" secures a readier sale for it.

Mr. Dillon

What is the necessity of protecting them then?

Mr. Lemass

The practice grew up of having the prayer books printed in Ireland and described as "Printed in Ireland," but sent abroad to be bound. It is to stop that practice that this is being imposed. The binding can be done here. There are, of course, two kinds of binding, machine binding and hand binding, and both are being done here. In relation to the export trade, it is as a saving in the cost of production in regard to the binding, and more efficient and more effective work here, that the external market is being held. There is no reason, in my opinion, why the requirements of the country in prayer books cannot be supplied from within the country. I am certain it can be done, and the effect of the duties will be to ensure that it will be done.

Mr. McGilligan

This will only apply to those bound in leather.

Mr. Lemass

It will apply to those only bound in leather. That only takes in part of the supply.

Mr. McGilligan

What part?

Mr. Lemass

A fairly substantial part.

Mr. McGilligan

Will the Minister give any indication of what was the total invoice value of all the prayer books imported into the Saorstát last year or the year before?

Mr. Lemass

I have no information.

Mr. McGilligan

Will the Minister deny that it did not go above £10,000 —the total invoice value of all these prayer books, including those sent to be bound abroad?

Mr. Lemass

There are no statistics relating to that import, and I would not like to estimate it. I believe that in this year, if this duty were not imposed the importation would be very substantially increased. That is due to purely temporary causes. In any case, we are doing something.

Mr. O'Hanlon

Is the Minister satisfied that this 10 per cent. would put any people in employment in the prayer book business? Is the Minister aware that the prayer book business is a highly specialised one, done not only for Ireland, but for the whole world in one organisation, produced in one factory, in perhaps ten or twelve languages? It is the mass production that enables them to sell cheaply. Even if you put on 50 per cent. on prayer books will you put any person into employment in prayer book printing?

Mr. Lemass

Anyone who wishes to get an Irish-made Prayer Book, can get one without difficulty, no matter what mass production methods are adopted abroad. There is an adequate supply of Irish-made prayer books. The duty is very small. Representations have been made that it is too small. There is something to be said in support of the Deputy's latest contention. It is quite true that the trade is being taken from the workers because of the fact that the imported prayer book is produced under methods which enable it to be sold at a very cheap price. We have to consider that. If a respectable class of skilled workers are to be deprived of employment here, not because the market for their products has disappeared, but because of the low type of industry —the kitchen industry that has developed in Belgium——

Mr. McGilligan

In prayer books?

Mr. Lemass

In the binding of prayer books by children in the homes which enables them to be sold remarkably cheap. That industry has developed, and it is the importation of these prayer books bound in that way which has upset the industry which formerly existed here, and resulted in disemployment of a very considerable number of people.

Professor Alton

Are these books bound at all? Are they not only glued?

Mr. Lemass

A very large number of the prayer books are properly bound. There is a cheaper kind of book which is only glued, and which is imported to a large extent, although even in those there is a considerable home production.

Mr. Dillon

Surely the Minister is deceived when he says that the binding of prayer books is a kitchen industry. It is a very well conducted and excellent industry, highly specialised.

Mr. Lemass

I am not saying that there are not some excellent bookbinding works in Belgium, but that is the production against which we are in competition, and the books coming into this country are produced in the manner I have described.

Mr. Dillon

Who is going to produce them here?

Mr. Lemass

For the most part. Deputy Hayes mentioned the matter of a refund. Any duty paid which would not have been paid if the tariff as originally imposed had the form it now will have, will be repaid.

Mr. Hayes

That is good.

Mr. Lemass

I am, for a number of reasons, particularly interested in these industries to which it is intended to give some measure of protection. I am referring not so much to the printing industry as to the publishing and bookbinding industries. Although I realise that we are giving a very small measure of assistance by this duty, I think it should be given, and we can consider and, in fact, are considering, if it is not possible to assist this development in some other way. They are industries in respect of which the output in this country will always be particularly circumscribed and limited, for a variety of reasons. It seems to me that there is no reason, if we tackle it properly, why we might not get even a substantial export trade in home-produced and home-published books of one kind or another. That may seem to be a Utopian dream, but I believe it is possible. What I am anxious to do is to keep some vestige of the industry here until we can consider ways and means to develop it in the manner indicated.

Mr. McGilligan

Would the Minister find it possible, before coming to the Final Stage, to have segregated the import list as between books, periodicals and newspapers so that we can get books definitely by themselves? Would it be possible to have a segregation so as to have an estimate made with regard to prayer books?

Mr. Lemass

I shall endeavour to do that.

Mr. McGilligan

I doubt very much this statement with regard to the number of prayer books printed in the country. As far as I can understand, the economic unit of production of a certain type of book is not less than 25,000 copies, which could be printed by a good firm in a week. The entire demand for prayer books in the country would not take a firm a month to produce.

Professor Thrift

I thank the Minister for his concession in regard to the libraries, but I want to ask another favour in connection with it. If we pass this amendment the Government will be free to act, I take it, according to the amendment, and, therefore, it would be likely that another period would elapse in which, without special instructions, books consigned to libraries would be held up. There has been a period of difficulty and perhaps instructions could be given to prevent a further period of difficulty.

Mr. Moore

I was not here for the whole of the discussion, and perhaps the question I desire to ask has already been put to the Minister. Is he aware that the Revenue Commissioners are interpreting a consignment of more than one book as bulk when it is received by a bookseller and that a private person can receive up to six different ones?

Mr. Lemass

That is all changed by the amendment.

Mr. McGilligan

The Minister is not inclined to give any concessions in regard to books sent to an individual bookseller for his own use?

Mr. Lemass

It would be impossible to do so.

Amendment put and declared carried.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment (d) 2, which is consequential:—

In the Schedule, ref. No. 15, page 9, in the second column, to delete the word "unbound."

Amendment put and agreed to.

Professor Thrift

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 are not being moved at the present stage.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment 4a.

In the Schedule, ref. No. 15, page 9, in the second column, after the word "periodicals" to insert the words "printed music, wall paper."

This amendment is designed to secure exemption from the scope of duty of printed music and wall paper.

Mr. Dockrell

Does that include a wall paper pattern book?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

Is it not possible to divide on the fifteenth item in the Schedule?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not the Resolution.

Mr. Dillon

Cannot we divide on any particular item in the Schedule?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The House can divide on the Resolution as a whole, but there cannot be a division on the fifteenth item. There can, of course, be a division upon any amendment.

Mr. Dockrell

With regard to item No. 16, I do not wish to make any comment on (a), (b) or (c). In regard to (e), catalogues imported in bulk quantities, I do not wish to support the proposition that a merchant or manufacturer in this country who gets a trade catalogue printed in England or abroad should be allowed to bring it in without paying duty, but quite apart from that, there is a very large amount of catalogues imported into this country in very small quantities by what I might describe as specialised manufacturers. They are supplied to various merchants and trading firms free, and they distribute those catalogues to their customers. I contend that if you pass this amendment it will result in having those catalogues sent individually to the customers from the manufacturers. I further contend that that would neither be good for the postal revenue nor for the merchant in this country who is competing against other firms in England. He has already paid for the literature under the heading of the goods he buys. Catalogues are supplied in all those cases practically free.

In regard to (d) and (f), namely, labels and tags imported in bulk quantities, and tickets imported in bulk quantities, at the present time the production of labels, tags and tickets is practically a negligible quantity, and it is done on highly specialised machinery. If you persist in putting a tariff on these articles you are really putting a tariff on the printer's raw material. He is competing with imported printed tickets or labels, and I suggest that he will want the full protection that he will get under the preceding paragraph. If you force him to pay an extra price for his raw material, you are only handicapping him when he comes to give the finished article to his customer where he is in competition with the manufacturer on the other side who had bought tickets at the lowest price and paid for them as printed matter. I suggest that that aspect has been entirely overlooked, namely, that the printer wants all the advantage he can get so as to enable him to get the printing, and if you put a tariff on his raw material you are only handicapping him in his business.

Mr. Anthony

I think Deputy Dockrell must be under a very great misapprehension in suggesting that the printing of these labels, tags and tickets is a negligible quantity in this country.

Mr. Dockrell

I did not say the printing of them.

Mr. Anthony

The quantity of these tags circulating and being printed in this country is not negligible.

Mr. Dillon

Nobody said so.

Mr. Anthony

They do not comprise what is known as printers' raw material. Printers' raw material consists very largely of rollers, leads brass leads and clumps—things of that character, highly technical terms that I do not want to go into now. In the manufacture of tickets, labels and tags much employment will be given in the printing industry. There is no reason to fear that it will add to the cost of production of the finished article—the printed matter. These tags can be made here; the lables can be made here and the printed matter can be put on them. I am fully in sympathy with the proposal.

With regard to the raw material for printers, numbers of commodities have been held up. The materials I have in mind particularly are brasses and leads. These are not made in this country. I am sure the Minister will see that that position is remedied in the future.

Mr. O'Hanlon

With regard to this matter of tags, it is a very small thing. I have it from one of the principal printers in Dublin who does a lot of work in tags that he can pay this 33? per cent., get his tags printed in England and delivered here at a cheaper rate than he could possibly get them done in Ireland.

Mr. Lemass

If he is a printer he should be out of the business.

Mr. Anthony

He certainly should.

Mr. O'Hanlon

However, that is only a minor matter. With regard to stationery, I do not think there is going to be any great revenue derived and the net result will be to upset the printing and stationery business. Not alone will these things be held up, but every parcel of stuff that looks like stationery, tags or catalogues will be lying at the North Wall or at other ports and printers will be terribly inconvenienced trying to get stuff through that is not tariffed at all. It is one of these insignificant tariffs that will yield nothing to the revenue. There may be some extra employment in the way of folding notepaper by machinery and there may be other little things scarcely worth talking about.

If there could be three extra hands brought into employment in Dublin I would say "Go ahead with it," but I do not see that there will be any extra employment. There will be inconvenience caused to printers in the country and stationers and people generally in getting stuff through. Surely it is hard enough for people, who have to run on small stocks, when they order paper of some kind to be held up perhaps a month before delivery is made. I think the inconvenience will more than outweigh any little extra employment given.

Mr. Anthony

An amount of inconvenience has been caused because of the fact that certain expert knowledge is not availed of by the revenue officers when dealing with printed matter set out in the Schedule. In the case of trade catalogues and other printing mentioned by Deputy O'Hanlon, a practice has grown up here of agents touting for orders, getting orders from good customers and having these orders executed abroad, their clients all the time believing that the matter is manufactured and printed in this country. With regard to trade catalogues, the practice is growing up of Irish manufacturers and others, notably nursery men who trade under Irish names and who ask their patrons to buy the products of Irish gardens, to get their trade catalogues printed across the water and, in order to deprive this State of postage revenue, they get the catalogues posted from Liverpool or elsewhere.

Mr. Dillon

Because the postage is lower. This tariff will not have the least affect on that.

Mr. Anthony

This tariff will do this much, it will bring some of these people to a sense of responsibility. They can get that work done as cheaply and as well in Cork or in Dublin. As Deputy Dillon says, it is to save the extra halfpenny in the postage that they get the stuff printed and posted abroad for their customers in Ireland. It is time to stop that practice.

Mr. Dillon

How can this tariff stop it?

Mr. Anthony

Indeed it will. If there is a slight difference in the way of price it will stop it.

Mr. McGilligan

What are the prospects of getting all these things made in the country soon and at reasonable prices? There are a couple of firms, one in particular, manufacturing rather fine writing paper and ledger paper, but I do not know any that go in for the manufacture of things mentioned in (d), (e) or (f).

Mr. Moore

Will a book of instructions coming with a machine that is imported be liable to duty under this Resolution?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. McGilligan

Except it is fiction.

Mr. Moore

Duty has been demanded on such.

Mr. Lemass

It relates only to books of that kind imported in bulk quantities.

Mr. Moore

I am afraid there will be certain anomalies in connection with this tax. For instance, in connection with imported motor cars it is usual for each car to be accompanied by catalogues. I think it is rather a harmless traffic and I think it is very unlikely that this tariff will result in these catalogues being printed here. It will mean that such information as might be available for a retailer or purchaser will not be available. The purchaser will have to take the word of the trader. I particularly want to know whether books of instruction with regard to imported machines will be taxed. It would be anomalous if they were.

Mr. O'Hanlon

Could I refer to No. 34 at this stage?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What has No. 34 to do with what we are discussing at the moment?

Mr. O'Hanlon

Deputy Anthony mentioned it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with Reference Number 16— Stationery.

Mr. Lemass

There is no difficulty in getting our requirements in labels and tags supplied in the country or in getting our requirements of trade catalogues required by native manufacturers supplied here. The difficulty of exempting from duty the trade catalogues which outside manufacturers send in here is that very frequently these catalogues take the place of catalogues used by the native manufacturer. He gets his name printed on the cover and uses them as his trade catalogue. It would be almost impossible to find a means by which we could admit free of duty catalogues sent in here for information only. A catalogue sent in here for use by a merchant or manufacturer is his trade catalogue among his customers. In our opinion, he should get his catalogues printed in this country. On the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill I propose to move an amendment putting in before the word "tickets" in paragraph (f) the word "printed." Unprinted tickets will be admitted free.

Mr. Dockrell

What about labels and tags?

Mr. Lemass

Labels and tags are not labels and tags unless they are printed and prepared as such, and that work can be done here.

Mr. Dillon

A tag is not a tag unless it is printed. Does the Minister accept that principle?

Mr. Lemass

A tag is something that is manufactured.

Mr. Dillon

A tag is a piece of cardboard with a perforation. Is that liable to duty?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. Labels and tags are subject to duty. There is no qualification at all. As far as tickets are concerned, it is proposed to exempt from duty all unprinted tickets. Only one firm is affected in the matter, but we intend to give them that concession.

Mr. McGilligan

The Minister said that on the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill he proposes to move to put the word "printed" in front of the word "ticket" in paragraph (f). Quite a number of labels that one can get, luggage labels and others, are quite blank. Some have lines on them and some perforations for tearing off. If there is no printing on them are those not considered to be manufactured, and, therefore, are they free from duty if they come in.

Mr. Lemass

No, they are liable.

Mr. Dillon

As a matter of fact, everybody knows that there is only one firm, and that is situate in England, that is engaged in a really big way in the manufacture of tags. There is no factory in this country for the manufacture of tags nor is there likely to be. I do not think there is the remotest chance of producing tags here.

Mr. Lemass

I will have the matter examined.

Mr. Dockrell

As I am not in the printing trade I can bear the Minister's decision with resignation, but I would ask him to look into the question of imported catalogues. It is not a question of a person importing catalogues that they ought to get printed in this country, but of getting in free, literature, that they have been given free.

Mr. Lemass

I have explained the administrative difficulties in connection with that. Very frequently merchants here are given large quantities of catalogues produced by manufacturers on the other side. The merchant here sticks his name on the front page of such a catalogue and uses it as his trade catalogue all over the country.

Mr. McGilligan

Irrespective of the definitions that are here, I would like to get clear as to what it is intended to include and to exclude. Take the motor trade alone. There are huge numbers of catalogues sent in here for the different makes of cars. They are distributed by the distributing agents here. They never charge a penny for those catalogues. They come in free, and they are distributed free. Is it still intended to have them taxed?

Mr. Lemass

It has to be.

Mr. Good

Does the Minister recognise, if these catalogues are excluded, that the volume of trade in connection with them in this country would not justify the cost of their preparation here?

Mr. Lemass

They will not be excluded, they will be admitted subject to duty.

Mr. Good

That means practically that they will be excluded.

Reference No. 16 agreed to.

Mr. Lemass

In connection with Reference No. 17, it should read "manufacturers of iron or steel wire."

Mr. McGilligan

The amendment to Resolution 7, I think, puts that in. I was intrigued to see this particular amendment. Does it mean now that iron wire itself is not subject to tax?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, and it was never intended.

Mr. McGilligan

I welcome that amount of sanity even at this late point.

Mr. Good

I see that nails and tacks at the end of Resolution No. 17 are excluded. What about screws?

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister state what kind of iron wire-work he proposes to protect by this resolution?

Mr. Lemass

Gates, fences, etc.

Mr. Dillon

In wire?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. Wide ranges of that class of work are excellently manufactured in this country.

Mr. Dillon

A wire gate?

Mr. Blythe

There is a type of rattrap made of wire.

Mr. Cosgrave

I think there is some kind of wire used in connection with the manufacture of boots. Will it be allowed in?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Good

I take it that the Minister will include screws?

Mr. Lemass

I also propose to exclude from the scope of the duty coir rope. It is also proposed in respect of this to take the same power to licence, which I mentioned in relation to another duty, in order to exclude certain minor items which are required by manufacturers in the process of manufacture. Where these cannot be supplied within the country, we propose to admit them free under licence.

Mr. Cosgrave

Under licence?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, under licence.

Mr. Dillon

To which item of the Schedule does that remark apply?

Mr. McGilligan

That is 36.

Mr. Dillon

Quite so. I thought it was 17.

Mr. Moore

I take it that wire fencing is included in the goods tariffs?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Moore

Ten years ago there was an export trade in wire fencing to South America. Can the Minister say whether that is going on at present?

Mr. Dockrell

Has the Minister excepted screws?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

Are they being put in now?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Minister advert to the fact that they come under the brass tariff?

Mr. Cosgrave

With regard to Reference No. 18 there is a good deal of apprehension in the minds of shopkeepers, in connection with religious objects, crosses of which portion is timber and various other similar items. If they come under this, I wonder if the Minister has considered the desirability of having them allowed in free. There is no possible chance of their being manufactured in this country, and I am informed that there is occasionally an opportunity of re-exporting considerable quantities of those goods, and with the approach of the Congress, it would be inadvisable to have them held up, as I believe they are being held up, at present at the ports.

Mr. Lemass

I will have an amendment to cover that point introduced.

Mr. McGilligan

This is a very urgent matter. There is, I understand, quite a number of religious objects, in connection with which Church regulations demand that wood should form portion of them, at present held up and they are required very urgently in connection with the Congress. If they are not going to be allowed in, they are not going to be distributed and sold in the ordinary way of business. A certain amount may emerge in Dublin hereafter, and will be on sale here, but the people down the country, who do a trade in these particular articles, at this time of year, are going to lose that trade.

Mr. Lemass

I think arrangements can be made by which they can be allowed in free of duty if an amendment is tabled.

Mr. Cosgrave

I think there will be general agreement in the House if it were necessary to accept an amendment to do so now, because the time is running short, and by the end of this week, it will be almost too late to have them distributed. The tax on them is pretty considerable. I think some articles which cost a penny bear a duty of a penny or twopence and some articles which cost threepence bear a duty of threepence and sellers say that there is no possible chance of a sale at the enhanced prices.

Mr. Lemass

I would like to have the question of the amendment of the Resolution considered by the Parliamentary draftsman. I cannot see the exact form of wording that might not prove altogether wider, perhaps, than was intended, but I have no doubt in view of the fact that such an amendment, when tabled, and when put to the Dáil, will be obviously acceptable to the Dáil, that we can get an arrangement by which stocks held at the moment can be cleared free of duty or else, subject to a repayment, subsequently.

Mr. Blythe

Or by entering into a bond.

Mr. Good

Might we know from the Minister——

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps it would save discussion if I gave an indication of an amendment to this which it is my intention to move on the next stage. I propose to exempt from the duty, churns, incubators, component parts of umbrellas, component parts of covers for loose leaf ledgers and musical instruments. Road and rail vehicles are exempt from this duty. I also propose to exempt educational requisites in such a way as to ensure that certain implement and tool handles will be subject to duty— those that can be made here—and that others will not. There is some misunderstanding at present which it is necessary to have cleared up, but I was not able to have the amendment prepared for introduction on this Stage, I will however move it on the next Stage.

It is also proposed in this case to take power to permit the importation free of duty of certain minor items, such as Deputy Fitzgerald mentioned to me yesterday, wooden pegs that are used in boot manufacture which are supplied only by the persons who rent the machines to the manufacturer. He cannot get a supply except from the person from whom he rents the machine, and, consequently, he must import them. Similarly, frames for honey-cases which are made out of a type of wood grown in the U.S.A. and the exportation of which from America is prohibited, and we shall consequently have to allow these frames in free of duty also. There are some minor items of that kind, the difficulties in respect of which we propose to meet by a licence arrangement of the kind we have at the moment in relation to knitted fabric.

Mr. Moore

Would the Minister say why butter boxes should not be exempted?

Mr. Lemass

They are not subject to duty; they are excluded.

Mr. Good

Are fish barrels excluded?

Mr. Lemass

For the moment.

Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll

I understand that there are certain types of containers for fruit which come into this country. They are called by the fruit dealers "chips." They come in in large crates, and, as the law stands at present, the Revenue Commissioners say that they are not exempt from duty. There is no possibility of having them made in this country. They are sent out to Balbriggan and Rush and similar places, and the fruit is placed in these containers and sent to the markets here in Dublin. At present the Revenue Commissioners hold that those are not exempt from duty, and I would be obliged if the Minister would look into the matter.

Mr. Lemass

I have received representations in respect of chips and punnets, and it is proposed, subject to an examination showing that there is no possibility of their substitution by anything produced here—which I think is likely—to exempt them.

Mr. Dockrell

I would like to suggest to the Minister that he should scrap the term "builder's woodwork and component parts thereof," because I am afraid it is very difficult to understand what is meant by it. Personally, I would have thought that a ladder would have come under the definition. However, it has been ruled that it comes under B. I do not know if the Minister is aware of any source of supply of extension ladders in this country. Is there any manufacturer of extension ladders in this country?

Mr. Lemass

There is no person who engages in the manufacture of extension ladders exclusively, but I am not at all sure that there are not persons engaged in woodworking industries of one kind or another who could not make extension ladders.

Mr. Dockrell

Is there any individual who makes extension ladders at the present time?

Mr. Lemass

I shall have enquiries made.

Mr. Dockrell

I suggest that you will find it difficult to find him. However, that is neither here nor there. I suggest that certain types of things may be brought within this category which it is not intended to bring within it. Take electrical goods. The ordinary switch has a wooden base. I cannot imagine the brass top coming in and being assembled on a wooden base here. I take it that it is not intended that such things as the wooden bases of switches, wooden fuse boxes and things of that kind should come within this category. If they are intended to come within it, they should be specified. There are also covers for fuse boards which I suggest should be specifically exempted, if the Minister can see his way to do so. Personally, I think the broad lines—doors, sashes, stairs, greenhouses, etc.—ought to fill the bill, and the Minister might very well make a start with them instead of giving the Revenue Commissioners a roving commission over every mortal thing that contains wood and that is brought into this country.

Mr. Good

Would a bucket with a wooden handle come in under "builder's woodwork," or would a hot water kettle with a wooden handle come in under the same heading?

Mr. Lemass

A hot water kettle with a wooden handle has always been subject to duty as household furniture.

Mr. Good

Does the bucket come under this heading or under the heading of furniture?

Mr. Lemass

It would come under either one head or the other.

Mr. Gorey

The bucket with the wooden handle is, I think, to be exempted.

Mr. Lemass

Six years ago, Deputy Blythe succeeded in getting the bucket and the kettles with wooden handles classed as "household furniture," and they have been subject to duty since.

Mr. Blythe

I think I let them off last year.

Mr. Gorey

The bucket may only have a piece of wood in the centre of the handle.

Mr. Lemass

That is not being treated as manufactured woodwork.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Minister advert to the fact that this will apply to clog soles and that it will also apply to spraying machines on account of their wooden handles?

Mr. Lemass

It does not include machinery of any kind.

Mr. Dillon

Do you call a spraying machine "machinery"?

Mr. Lemass

If it does not come under the heading of machinery, it is an implement.

Mr. McGilligan

Is it intended, in the exclusion section, lettered paragraph (d)—scientific and medical instruments—to include under the term "medical""surgical"?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

On the general question, I understand that this tax will catch the cheap line of imported wooden toys. Is it intended to catch these?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

Will the Minister say how we are to substitute the toys that will be prohibited, because the duty, if this proposal is passed, will in the majority of cases raise the price of these things by almost 100 per cent. In the main, as the Minister, I am sure, understands, these things are made from waste material got from certain timber works. A very specialised industry in these things has been established in certain parts of Germany and in some of the Scandinavian countries. A further article which would not be classed as a toy, but which may be cited as an example of small things caught by this tax which cannot be produced here because they are made from waste wood, is the clothes peg. Clothes pegs are going to be subject to this tax. I would like to know from the Minister what is the likelihood of these being substituted by a home-made article or is it proposed to get some extra bit of revenue by taxation of children's toys and things like clothes pegs?

Mr. Lemass

So far as children's toys and clothes pegs are concerned, I see no reason why they should not be produced here. There was an industry in Galway engaged in the manufacture of wooden toys for a considerable time, and, from time to time, other people have attempted to foster that industry here. It seems to me that there is no reason why the industry should not go ahead. The skill required can be supplied by competent carpenters, and it only needs a little initiative and business ability to build it up.

Mr. McGilligan

Is that a serious comment?

Mr. Lemass

It is. A large number of types of wooden toys have been made here and sold here, and can be made here.

Mr. Cosgrave

Has the Minister seen one of these little wooden toys being sold at a penny?

Mr. Lemass

I am not talking of little wooden toys selling at a penny.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is one of the things which are affected.

Professor O'Sullivan

The Minister was thinking only of the aristocrats.

Mr. Lemass

I was talking of the carts and larger toys used by youngsters.

Mr. McGilligan

Does the Minister know that the Galway toy factory went in mainly for the larger type of wooden toy, the wooden horse—a very expensive type of wooden horse—a rather substantially made scooter and a children's toy wheelbarrow? Outside these four main lines, did the Galway factory go in for much else? Did it go in for the type of thing that constitutes a specialised industry in certain portions of Germany, where it is such a tradition that the making of even one fractional part of a penny toy comes down from father to son, and where you see the people collecting at certain times with the specialised parts in a certain town, where the parts are gathered and assembled? These things are then sent out, and after they have paid freight in respect of long journeys over land and sea, they can be sold by the retailer at from 1d. to 3d. These are the things that I am referring to. It is intended to tax these, and the Minister believes that all that is required to produce them here is a little initiative.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy was talking about children's toys. I said that a large number of children's toys had been made and could be made here.

Mr. McGilligan

You are taxing every one of them, not the big ones which can be made here.

Mr. Lemass

There may be some wooden toys retailed at 1d. or 2d. which cannot be made here, but there is no reason why the duty should be dropped on that account.

Mr. Moore

Is it not a fact that there are thousands of youths throughout the country attending woodwork classes, organised and paid for by the State, who are quite competent to do this work in their spare time, and who are hoping to get such work when they complete their course? Is it not a fact that the reports are that there are plenty of boys of genius in these classes capable of undertaking this work, and that the capital required for such enterprises is very small?

Mr. Bennett

Will the Minister say if, for instance, the wood in a spool of thread will be taxed, and if certain classes of indispensable articles of medicine used for cattle, such as Parke Davis's blacklegoids, which come in the wooden containers, will be taxed on the wooden containers? I believe the medicine itself will be taxed under another resolution. Is there, in addition, going to be a tax on the wooden container? That medicine is indispensable for the treatment of blackquarter in cattle. If there is to be a further tax on the wooden container, it will be a very serious matter.

General Mulcahy

The Minister said he would exempt road and rail carriages. Does the Minister intend to include such things as baby carriages and perambulators?

Mr. Lemass

They are subject to duty under another heading, definitely and specifically.

Mr. Blythe

Could the Minister introduce some amendment that would enable wooden articles of trivial value to be exempt, so that there would be no danger, for instance, of the wood round which the thread is wound in a reel of thread being taxed?

Mr. Lemass

There is an exemption in Column 5 which reads as follows: Where the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that the quantity of wood contained in any article liable to this duty forms only an inconsiderable portion of the whole of such article, the Revenue Commissioners may, subject to compliance with such conditions as they think fit to impose, permit such article to be imported without payment of this duty or repay any such duty paid on importation.

Mr. Blythe

That will exempt the handle on the kettle or the bucket, but there are a lot of other small wooden article of little value which I think might be exempt. I remember that formerly, by administrative concession rather than by enactment, under the McKenna duties on musical instruments, Jews harps were admitted without duty, on the principle that their value was trivial. I think even these small penny toys could be exempt if some arrangement were made, where the value of the individual wooden article is trivial.

Mr. Lemass

I shall have that point looked into.

Mr. Gorey

As to No. 19, which deals with disinfectants, insecticides, germicides, etc., I should like to know if the tax is being imposed for revenue purposes or in order to have these things manufactured here. I am not aware that there is sheep dip made here in any quantities. I am not aware that there is a non-poisonous dip made here. It is an absolute necessity for the late autumn dipping. According to this, it will cost us more to kill all kinds of vermin. It puts a tax on cleanliness and sanitation, and on a lot of desirable things, and I should like to know what is the object in introducing it? Jeyes fluid, Condy's fluid, and all the sheep dips, are to be taxed. I should like to know the case that can be made for this before we go any further. Store lambs will be selling about 18th July at anything from 10s. to 15s. Wool is selling as cheap as 3d. and 4d. per lb. In these circumstances, I do not know how the Minister can justify these taxes. Quality is more important even than price. If we cannot get a dip, or a disinfectant, equal in quality to what we have been getting, a very serious situation will arise. I ask the Minister to give us some indication of what he has in his mind with regard to this.

Mr. Dillon

There are some substitutes for the popular disinfectants manufactured here, but I entirely agree with Deputy Gorey that the Minister in this tariff may be doing something, the full significance of which he does not realise, because a large number of the non-poisonous dips that come into this country are the only safe preparations to place in the hands of people. If there is a tariff on an article, a lot of country people will not buy it, and they will try to use substitutes for things like sheep scab and the other ills to which cattle and sheep are heir and as a result very grave danger will arise. If an ineffective sheep dip is used in any particular area the whole administration of the Department of Agriculture may be interfered with. We know the reluctance of people to buy an article on which there is a tariff. The danger is that if you put a tariff on sheep dip, germicides, insecticides, and things of that character, you may do the agricultural community a very serious injury. There is not the slightest doubt that these dips and preparations of that character largely depend on the advertisements, on the grip they have on the people, the confidence the people have in them, and the knowledge they have of how to use them. I suggest to the Minister that he should carefully consider, in consultation with the Department of Agriculture, the desirability of mitigating the rigours of this tax.

Mr. Corry

I should like to point out that there are sheep dips made in this country which, in fact, are better than the imported dips. One sheep dip made in Cork is recommended by the Department of Agriculture and is used under three-fourths of the county councils and has been proved to be successful. I think this argument is rather nonsensical when there are dips made in this country which are second to none. I see no case for importing foreign dips when they can be made at home and employment given in the making of them.

Mr. Bennett

I am not aware that there is any effective non-poisonous sheep dip available in Ireland. Perhaps the Minister will inform us if there is. There were some disinfectants supposed to be non-poisonous used on various animals which have been proved in use not to be so. If I might refer to domestic animals, a matter which might concern the Minister himself, McDougall's make various washes for dogs, horses and other animals which are absolutely non-poisonous. I do not know if there is any similar preparation made, but certainly it is not in common use if there is. I do not think the Minister would like to see his child poisoned after washing his dog. Deputy Gorey was perhaps a bit modest with regard to that matter. I am not a bit modest in that way. It is well-known that McDougall's provide a non-poisonous disinfectant which has no equal, as far as I know, in the Irish market. If you are going to prevent that coming in you are going to put the owners of dogs in a very serious position. Again, certain people use a non-poisonous sheep dip. If there is any non-poisonous sheep dip from Cork which is effective, it has not been very well advertised. I know that people who are engaged in poultry rearing are very loth to use a poisonous sheep dip, because if they did they would endanger their whole poultry stock. It is a question that the Minister should seriously look into. It may, as Deputy Dillon says, have a disastrous effect on the whole policy of his brother Minister, the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. O'Neill

I do not think that this discussion should be used to advertise a foreign product, particularly one at the expense of the Cork product. I agree with my colleague on the other side that the Cork sheep dip is able to hold its own with any other. This Schedule, however, includes a lot of other things, such as fungicides and vermicides. I would like to have an assurance that such things are produced in any quantity here, and, if so, that they are equal to the imported articles, particularly the proprietary articles against the importation of which this Schedule is directed, such things as "Catakilla" and "Weedicide."

Mr. Gorey

I would like to know if there are two different classes of sheep dip made in Cork. It is all very well for ignorant people to laugh, but there is an arsenic dip and a non-poisonous dip. A waterproof, non-poisonous dip is quite a different matter to the arsenic dip. I would like if the Minister for Agriculture or somebody with authority would say if both classes of sheep dip are available, and whether they are effective. I have not the remotest hostility to anything from Cork, even if it came from Glounthane, where, I understand, disinfectants, are very largely used. This is an important matter, and I think we might treat it seriously. I did not mention fowl, but it is absolutely essential that the vermicides used in the fowlhouse should not be poisonous, and that it should not be in liquid form. There are times in the year when the fowlhouse should be treated with grey powder. I would be inclined to think in the absence of something convincing from the Minister that he has converted the Executive Council into a society for the propagation of fleas.

Mr. MacEntee

There are altogether nine firms engaged in the manufacture of disinfectants, sheep dips and other articles which it is proposed to cover by this item.

Mr. Gorey

In the Saorstát?

Mr. MacEntee

In the Saorstát. We have heard two glowing testimonials as to the effect of the Cork sheep dip. We have heard of the manufacture of the non-poisonous and poisonous varieties. The one thing that operates in the mind of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in recommending this tariff is that in 1926 the home production of disinfectants of this description was worth £5,721, and in 1929, £7,930. As against that we import £60,000 worth of these manufactures in the year. Quite frankly, I am not an authority on these matters, but I do not see that there would be any great difficulty in manufacturing them here. Most of them are proprietary articles which have been in the market for a considerable number of years. The chemical composition of virtually every one of them can be ascertained by analysis. I think there is not one of them protected in this country, so that it would be open to any enterprising manufacturer to put on the market here an exactly similar article if it paid him to do so under the tariff, and to supply the needs of home farmers, whatever type of article of this sort they wanted. Apart altogether from that, I do not think that the burden of the tax is going to be very heavy. The rate of preferential duty, which will probably be the effective rate, is only 15 per cent. None of these things costs a great deal of money.

Mr. Gorey

It is a revenue duty.

Mr. MacEntee

It is not a revenue duty; it is a protective tariff, and the fact that small firms starting here were able inside three years, in a time of falling prices, to increase the value of their output by almost 50 per cent. indicates that small and all as the tariff is going to be, inexpensive as it is going to be, it is going to be an effective tariff, and it is going to enable these industries to develop in this country and to provide what we want here, employment.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister undertake to consult with the Department of Agriculture with regard to the question of non-poisonous dips?

Mr. MacEntee

I promise that will be done.

Mr. Gorey

There are two classes of dips—poisonous and non-poisonous.

Mr. MacEntee

Both are made in Cork.

Mr. Gorey

I would rather hear that from the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Corry

Deputy O'Riordan from Castletownroche should know that.

Mr. MacEntee

Amendment 7a is as follows:

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 20, page 10, in the second column, sub-paragraph (1), to delete the words "barrow and truck" and after the word "wheels" to add the words "except tractor and trailer wheels and wheels which are at importation part of a complete vehicle, machine, or other article."

The purpose of amendment 7b is to extend the list of cast-iron articles to which the protective duty will apply.

Amendment 7b reads:

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 20, page 10, in the second column, to add after sub-paragraph (1) the following sub-paragraphs:

(m) lamp and street standards;

(n) urinals;

(o) storage tanks imported empty;

(p) fire-bars, coal savers, and false bottoms;

(q) columns and posts constructed, designed, and intended for use as gate-posts;

(r) stop-cock boxes;

(s) floor plates;

(t) capstans and bollards;

(u) table standards, including cast-iron tables;

(v) pumps for use otherwise than in industrial undertakings.

At the present moment there are 14 firms engaged in the iron-foundry industry and they afford employment for approximately 350 workers. The industry has been declining here rapidly during the past four or five years and in order to maintain it in the country the Minister for Industry and Commerce considers that a tariff is essential.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister indicate what is a bollard?

Mr. MacEntee

A bollard is a mooring post.

Mr. McGilligan

With regard to No. 20, we have been told there are so many firms engaged in the foundry business. The Minister for Industry and Commerce thinks these people ought to be protected. What is the extent of the manufacturing, in all? What is the value of the goods produced by these 14 firms in any year? What is the value of the importation which this lengthy list sets out to exclude, except under a tariff? From a collocation of these figures we can get some indication of the increased capital necessary for these firms if they are going to extend to the point when they will capture the business represented by the huge importation that there is. What length of time will elapse before sufficient capital to achieve that is subscribed and what time will elapse before you are in a position to have trained workers? We would like to have some indication of the time that must elapse before home manufacturers will reach the point when they will be able to catch up on the importations.

Mr. O'Neill

With regard to (j), sky and dead lights, I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce gave some sort of undertaking that leaded lights would be brought under this heading.

Mr. MacEntee

That matter might come up later on Reference No. 34.

Mr. O'Neill

I raise the question from the point of view that some protection might be necessary for the stained glass industry.

Mr. Corry

We had an assurance on that matter already to-day.

Mr. McGilligan

As long as Deputy Corry gives that assurance it is all right.

Mr. MacEntee

In reply to Deputy McGilligan, let me say that the value of the castings of iron and steel produced by native firms in 1926 was £58,227 and in 1929 it had risen to £74,771. With regard to the question of trained and skilled workers, I believe they are all here. The moulders, pattern makers, furnace men and others who are required for manufacturing iron and steel castings are already manufacturing articles of that description. If a person has to make a gully trap or a lamp standard it is only a question of having the appropriate pattern and mould made and then the casting can proceed.

This will involve a considerable increase in employment. The skill is here. Possibly at the present moment some of it is not being utilised. Many of the skilled workers who could be engaged are probably idle. If Deputy McGilligan will walk through Dublin he will see lamp standards and pavement boxes and all sorts of cast articles bearing the imprint of Dublin foundries, some of which, as a matter of fact, have been closed down within the past few years. He will see articles manufactured by Dublin firms which have gone out of business within the past two or three years, and the employees of which must be idle now. I believe this tariff will help to reopen those places and extend existing ones.

Mr. McGilligan

I have received no answer to my question. I asked certain questions in order to get a comparison, and so that people might have something on which to form their own opinions, not to be relying on the assurances which the Minister for Industry and Commerce so readily swallows from manufacturers who come to him looking for a tariff and who, of course, will say anything. I asked what was the value of the products in a particular year of the 14 firms upon whom, apparently, we have to rely. I was told the figure was £74,000 odd. I asked what was the value of the imports in this range of articles now being tariffed. I have not got that information. I want to get it in order to make a comparison. We are producing £70,000 worth, and we are importing so much. We would then have some data upon which to found an opinion as to whether or not these articles are going to be made, whether or not the skilled workers are here to make them, what extensions of plant are required, and what is the further capital that has to be involved. I have had no information on the second point. We got from the Minister his view about the skill that is here. I suppose that is derived, too, from the statements of manufacturers who, naturally, have to make the best case they can when looking for a tariff. It is a fact that three years ago there was an importation of not less than £200,000 worth of iron pipes. Put that against £74,000.

Mr. MacEntee

Will the Deputy put it against one of the items?

Mr. McGilligan

I am indicating that in the case of iron pipes alone the value of the imported articles was £200,000. Put that, if you like, against sash weights, pig troughs and feeding pans; desk and seat standards; manhole covers and frames of all sizes; hydrants and valve covers, gully traps and all the rest of the items set out in the list. If the Minister has information, why do we not get it? We must have something upon which to base an opinion of our own and not have to rely on assurances given to Ministers by manufacturers.

Mr. Corish

Am I to understand that ordinary water-pipes, what are known as the Staunton spun pipe, will come under this?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. MacEntee

Would Deputy McGilligan say what particular type of pipe was covered by that figure of £200,000 that he referred to?

Mr. McGilligan

Iron pipes.

Mr. MacEntee

Is the Deputy sure they were not steel?

Mr. McGilligan

Quite. I am looking for information. Surely the people who are putting on tariffs ought to have some idea of the value of the imports that are now being taxed, and the value of the home products? I want to get a comparison between these two items.

Mr. Lemass

It would be impossible to get that information. The figures in the trade and shipping statistics relate to all cost-iron goods. We have only taken out particular types of cast-iron goods, and there can be no doubt as to the ability of our manufacturers to supply these. The cast-iron industry here was largely a jobbing industry. In the original duty we included certain types of goods which, to a large extent, were produced more or less by mass production methods. They were produced by semi-skilled labour. We are now adding to that a number of classes of goods which require the labour of the highly skilled cast-iron founders. There are a large number of these in the country. In fact, for a number of years our requirements in relation to these goods were supplied by the Dublin foundries. Recently, because of a variety of reasons, the industry came upon bad times. As Deputy Cosgrave and other Deputies are aware, some of the Dublin foundries in fact closed down. I understand there is some prospect of these foundries now reopening in the new circumstances. In any case, the existing foundries in Dublin, Drogheda, Galway and elsewhere are quite capable of supplying the goods that are now subject to duty.

Mr. McGilligan

But still they have only done it for some years past to the extent of £74,000, and in one item which can be segregated from the import list, an item called iron pipes, there was an importation of £200,000 worth in that alone. The Minister for Finance expressed himself as absolutely satisfied as to all the skilled workers there are, and referred to big industrial firms. We have now got a proper description of it as a jobbing business from the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Lemass

It was largely.

Mr. McGilligan

And, yet, there is no fear in the minds of Ministers that there is going to be any length of time before we get a variety of articles manufactured here.

Mr. Lemass

They can be manufactured straight away. As a matter of fact, a foundry industry in this country could make any casting required under three tons weight except the Staunton spun pipe. It is not intended that this should be included. In regard to all the items mentioned, and to quite a large number that are not included and that normally are manufactured here, the industry is quite capable of supplying any needs that are likely to arise.

Mr. O'Neill

I submit to the Minister that the term in the section "external water-pipes" is liable to a misinterpretation. I suggest to him that he should employ the term that is in common use in the trade, namely, eave shoots and down pipes. The term "water-pipes" might refer to water mains, and I understand these are being deliberately excluded from the Resolution.

Mr. Lemass

External rain water and rain pipes, gutters and connections. It includes all that class of goods.

Mr. McGilligan

The word "rain" is not in your Schedule.

Mr. Lemass

It is intended to include these pipes.

Mr. O'Neill

For the sake of clearance, I think it would be better to use the term that is common in the trade, eave shoots and down pipes. Otherwise, it may be thought that water mains are included.

Mr. Lemass

It is quite clear that water or gas mains are not subject to this.

Mr. Cosgrave

If the Minister desires to see the industry re-started, I do not think this is the best way to do it. In the first place, practically all the people purchasing these goods buy what are called standard goods. They know pretty well what they want, who supplies them and they go to him. Normally, the persons so requiring these goods will pay the 15 per cent. extra and simply add it on to the price of the house, whatever it may be. At the moment and for some time to come, that additional cost is going to go on and it certainly is going to interfere with the cost of building. It must increase the cost of building, and I do not think that is the Minister's intention.

Mr. Lemass

In respect to external water-pipes and down pipes the Deputy is probably aware that these are being made in the country and exported from it?

Mr. Cosgrave

Certainly, but that is not always the case. Everyone does not buy them. Is the 15 per cent. likely to tilt the scale in favour of the home article and to get a demand for it at once? Personally I do not think it is. I think it is too small, and that it is too much on the other hand for those who have to pay it extra in respect to building —those who will not use the home material. I think the Minister ought to look into that and see whether it is not possible to get a stock of these ready and have it brought home to the builders of the country that they are available. One drawback about this enormous list of tariffs is that people are not in a position to know actually what is tariffed. They know that everything is up, but they are not in a position to know all the goods that are manufactured here and that are available here. It is quite possible that the engine is away from the train.

If it is intended to make a success of this tariff policy a good deal more work than merely having it dealt with here in the Dáil will be necessary. Undertakings from the firms in question as regards continuity of supply, the excellence of the material, the same terms in respect of damaged material that people here are accustomed to get from British manufacturers and so on should be the rule. In addition to that, in respect to quite a number of these items, there ought to be some inspection not of the inquisitorial sort but made rather with a view to ensuring that quality will distinguish the goods they are manufacturing. That is not an unreasonable request, because if people who have a sort of line ball business are going to be placed in a fairly strong position, then the public are certainly entitled to get value for their money. Within a short period there ought to be no addition to the price if they really enter into the proper spirit. I am rather inclined to think that the 15 per cent. is not enough for a business which, as the Minister said, was of a sort of a jobbing character up to now, with perhaps one exception.

Mr. Lemass

As far as housing materials are concerned, in addition to the protection that we are giving here there is a more direct form of protection which we intend to bring in under the Housing Bill, namely, that the grants given will be conditional on the use of certain specified standards of Irish materials. At present we are endeavouring to get into touch with the manufacturers in order to get standards fixed and prices ascertained at which these manufacturers will supply certain standardised materials in quantity. In that way we will be able to get produced, on an economic basis in this country, that range of goods that could not otherwise be produced at all. So far as what the Deputy says, relating to the amount of this duty, is concerned, it is true that those engaged in the industry did press for a larger tariff. They made the case that the competition they were up against, in respect of some of these articles, was particularly severe; in other words, that industries in other countries, because of depressed conditions, and the rest of it, were selling goods at a minimum cost merely to keep production. I went into the matter in some detail, however, and satisfied myself that the protection we are giving is sufficient to tilt the balance in favour of the home foundries, and to insure that orders for these goods will be available to them.

Mr. Cosgrave

Increased grants have been given in respect of housing. Is the cost of these articles, now that they are going to get the business, if they are going to get it, to be over and above what it has been.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is a different impression amongst practically all builders and builders' providers as regards the cost. In fact, the impression outside is, and it is the impression of people in the trade, that the increased grants barely compensate for the increased costs.

Mr. Lemass

What we are trying to do is by standardising the materials to bring the cost down to the minimum. There may be some additional increase in cost, and I would like to dispel any false impression on that account, because, in some of the industries affected, the prevailing rates of wages here are somewhat higher than in England and in so far as that is so, the cost may be slightly higher. By standardisation of the type that we have in mind, however, we hope to be able to get down to rock-bottom prices, and to make the materials available to local authorities and to individual builders at prices which will insure that they will be at no disadvantage when they are required to use the products of Irish factories.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister has been listening to the proceedings here for weeks past and everybody knows that agricultural prices were never as low in the last 15 years as they are at present. People know fairly well that their prices are higher than they have been. For instance, one need only look at the newspapers to find that we are paying 130/- for butter here, which is sold in England for 100/- These costs are all on the main producers of the country. Can they bear any additional cost? If there is going to be accommodation in respect of these matters costs are an essential item, and it is a nice question whether farmers, who will take some of the houses, can afford to pay higher prices for goods here than the prices at which they are capable of being produced in other countries. Tariffs in order to be a success must produce goods at something like world prices and we cannot afford to have here prices in excess of those world prices.

Mr. Lemass

In respect of these tariffs which come into operation almost immediately, and the previous resolutions, the immediate effect has been to bring prices down. The price of soap has gone down, the price of maize meal has gone down, and the price of hosiery produced in Irish factories, has gone down.

Professor O'Sullivan

As a result of tariffs?

Mr. Dillon

How can the Minister say that the price of maize meal has gone down?

Mr. Lemass

The price has gone down.

Professor O'Sullivan

The price of maize went down.

Mr. Cosgrave

What I want the Minister for Industry and Commerce to understand is that prices have toppled everywhere. That is the root cause, or one of the main causes, at least, of the terrible depression there is at present, and here, we engage——

Mr. Lemass

The cost of living index figure reveals a drop of four points between mid-February and mid-May.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is what I have been saying, but the fact is, notwithstanding that, we are paying 4d. a lb. more for butter than they are paying in England, and we are certainly not as rich.

Mr. Corish

Might I say in connection with rain water chutes that the Irish article is selling cheaper than the English article. It is used extensively by local authorities and it is just as good, if not better.

Professor O'Sullivan

There was a question asked by Deputy McGilligan of the Minister, namely, as to the estimate of the amount of these cast-iron goods that are imported, and the Minister refused to give even an estimate. He will remember, however, that, some time ago, we asked him for an estimate of how that £910,000 was made up. In that is included, I see from the type-script paper that was circulated, the item "cast-iron" articles. It is lumped in with the other articles making up that £271,000. Again, I suggest that that was made up by addition of the various items. Would the Minister mind telling us merely as an estimate, of course, what estimate there was, under the separate items, for cast-iron articles. That will, to a certain extent, at all events, give us some idea, and we can go on, then, perhaps, from that.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid——

Professor O'Sullivan

If the Minister has not got it now, he certainly can supply it as a separate item. He must have got it by having some estimate of the amount of goods imported.

Mr. Lemass

I have no separate estimate, but I will see if I can get it.

Professor O'Sullivan

The Minister must have had it in order to reach a total, otherwise the total is worthless.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will understand that the yield from the duty will be very greatly influenced by the rate at which development in the industry proceeds. If what we hope happens, the yield will be very low, and if what we do not think is likely to arise, should arise, that imports should continue and that the duty has been fixed too low to tilt the balance in favour of the Irish industry, a slightly larger yield will result. But, in respect of the articles mentioned there, there can be no question that, not merely are the firms capable of producing all our requirements, but they have in fact, been producing the bulk of our requirements over a number of years.

Professor O'Sullivan

That is not quite the question raised or the question I am nisraig now. To get at this £271,000, the Minister had some estimate. That estimate may be false or not, I grant the Minister, according to whether the tariff is effective or not, but an estimate was formed, and must have been formed, and it can only have been formed on some estimate of the amount of these goods used in the country at present. Could we not have that estimate? Granted that that estimate may not be very accurate—it may be a guess—but some estimate the Minister must have had, if this list is not entirely worthless. I do not ask for his estimate of the yield of the tariff—that may be falsified by events —but an estimate must have been formed of the amount of the goods used in the country, and we should have that estimate, I think.

Mr. Lemass

I do not anticipate that the yield from this tariff will be very substantial at all.

Professor O'Sullivan

I am not asking for the yield of the tariff. I am asking for an estimate for the amount of goods imported.

General Mulcahy

In view of the importance, from the Minister's point of view, of housing costs, I will put it to him that he will remember that, when I got an estimate that the tariff on steel windows would increase the cost of an £800 house by £15, he suggested that the use of wooden windows would obviate any necessary rise in the cost of building a house of that particular kind. Taking the cost, however, in respect of the different articles that have been tariffed here, I have got an estimate that the increase in cost on, say, an £800 house would probably run as high as 12 per cent.

Mr. Lemass

There are so many "ifs" in relation to that, that it is impossible to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

General Mulcahy

There is the danger that the building industry will accept all these "ifs" as very definite burdens falling down on top of them.

Mr. Lemass

Is that house going to be roofed with slate or tiles?

General Mulcahy

It is given as the ordinary £800 house here in Dublin, but I want to point out to the Minister simply the danger he is running at present, if he does not carry out the examination that I suggest he should carry out. Every single possible "if" that a builder can see in front of him is going to be taken into consideration by him, in quoting his building costs, and down on top of a very necessary housing programme that is being planned by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is going to fall the burden of all these "ifs," if by an examination of the position by the Minister with the machinery at his disposal, all the alternatives are not thoroughly pointed out, and all the "ifs" that can possibly be exorcised and made to vanish are not made to vanish. As I come across opinions amongst the people handling these materials for sale and among builders, the estimate of 12 per cent. is given as the increase in the cost of building, and I think it would be most desirable that the Minister should have the different items that bear on the cost of building examined, with a view to seeing what kind of case can reasonably be made for an increase in the cost of building.

Mr. Lemass

That has been done. The Deputy understands that in relation to tariffs we are bringing in these cast-iron goods, rain-water pipes and down-pipes, and we are bringing in builders' woodwork. The position in regard to builders' woodwork is, so far as local authorities and the organised building trades are concerned, that home-produced woodwork has always been used because the trade unions refuse to handle any other. It only applies really to the unorganised trade, the smaller building people in outlying, unorganised districts. They are now going to be required to use the home-produced doors and window-frames and the like. The local authorities always use the home product, and the larger builders in the organised areas also use the home product. So far as the cast-iron goods are concerned, we are very large exporters at the moment of cast-iron goods. A very large firm in this country is engaged in their production and is supplying them to other countries. We can make cast-iron goods—commercial castings—at a price which compares with that of anything that we can import.

General Mulcahy

I suggest that the Minister will require to reduce all these general statements to figures.

Mr. Lemass

In relation to the other matters, what we are doing is this: we are making out a list of every item which goes into the building of houses, estimating the annual requirements likely to arise in respect of each, ascertaining what the possibility is of standardising it and getting more economic production through standardisation and we are going to the manufacturers and asking them to quote us for producing certain standardised articles in specified quantities. If we find that they can do what we require and that the price is right, well and good. If we find that the price is too high, we have to cut it out for the moment. But the intention is, by standardisation and concentration of orders, to try to get the largest amount of Irish materials put into houses that are to be built.

Amendment 7a agreed to.

The following amendment was agreed to:

7b. In the Schedule, Ref. No. 20, page 10, in the second column, to add after sub-paragraph (1), the following sub-paragraphs:

(m) lamp and street standards;

(n) urinals;

(o) storage tanks imported empty;

(p) fire-bars, coal savers, and false bottoms;

(q) columns and posts constructed, designed, and intended for use as gate-posts;

(r) stop-cock boxes;

(s) floor plates;

(t) capstans and bollards;

(u) table standards including cast-iron tables;

(v) pumps for use otherwise than in industrial undertakings.

Minister for Finance.

An Ceann Comhairle

It might not be amiss to remind the House that we have spent five hours on Resolution No. 7, and that we are not yet finished, while there are 18 resolutions with fifty amendments to be dealt with before 10.30.

Professor O'Sullivan

I suggest that the House is not responsible for the extraordinary procedure of flinging this large number of amendments at us.

Mr. Bennett

As regards item 21— superphosphates, ground mineral phosphates and compound manures—there is a considerable amount of anxiety amongst the farming community over this tax. Superphosphates are an indispensable commodity on most farms. So far as my inquiries have gone, it is possible that there will be a rise in the price of these articles. If there is, it will be almost disastrous for the working farmers on the poorer lands. The Minister might give us some particulars as to the amount of superphosphates and other manures imported from England and foreign countries. I know that there is only a tax on foreign phosphates, but until we see the amount of superphosphates and other manures imported from foreign countries we will not be able to make any guess at what the probable effects of the prohibitive tariff—it really amounts to prohibition—will be. There is considerable anxiety on the part of farmers on this question. Superphosphates and the other mineral manures mean, perhaps, more to the farmer than even the remission in rates. They mean practically the existence of the small farmer at present. Even the smallest addition to farmers' costs would be lamentable. I should like the Minister to give us an assurance that there will be no increase in the cost of any of these manures. I do not know whether he is in a position to give that or not, but the farming community will expect it from him.

Mr. O'Shaughnessy

I ask the Minister not to enforce this tariff. Fertilisers are very important to a large section of farmers in my constituency. It is absolutely essential that their land should be fed with fertilisers in order that they may be able to carry on their business. Our great want in County Limerick is lack of sufficient cash to buy artificial manure. I am in a position to tell the Minister what the effects of this tariff will be, because I am the medium through which a large area has been supplied with this superphosphate for a number of years. I bought last spring over 100 tons for the farmers. If this tariff were enforced, I would be only able to buy 80 tons and if I had to buy the home manufactured stuff I would be only able to buy 75 tons. That is the position and it is a very serious position for the farmer. It is a sort of tradition that a Government should attempt to make two blades of grass grow where one grew before. To do that, is to serve the country well. I do not say that the Minister, by this tariff, would stop that growth altogether, but I say that if the tariff is enforced it will prevent the farmer from improving his land to the extent that he wishes to improve it. Deputy Bennett has said that this is more important to the farmers than the agricultural grant given for the relief of local rates. I say that in a large area in my constituency it is more important that this tax should not be put on than is the addition to the agricultural grant and the Butter Bounty Bill. I make this appeal to the Minister in all sincerity and good faith. I hope he will remit the tax. If he does not do so, he will be placing a barrier in the way of many farmers in my constituency which will prevent them carrying on the work they are at present engaged on.

Mr. Brasier

I rise to oppose this tax because I look upon it as a tax upon production. If you have no imports of superphosphate, the price is bound to go up. The manufacturer in this country has to import superphosphate and the handling of it and bagging of it is his only part in the industry. Surely, if there is an increase in the price of superphosphate, it will be a tax on production. The tax will hit the tillage farmer particularly.

He has not much stock to make what is the most valuable adjunct to the farm, and that is farm manure. He must fall back upon the artificial manures which are at his disposal. Probably he will not be able to pay cash for them and may have to pay a little extra simply because he gets credit. How much more will he have to pay when there is an added tax of 20 per cent.? It is the same with compound manures. Every practical farmer knows that the best thing he can do, and what will be of most assistance to him in farm economy, is to mix these manures himself. Every intelligent farmer who has been educated by our agricultural instructors or in our agricultural colleges knows well the proportions in which these manures ought to be mixed. He has not got any information as to what the compound manures are like. There is no section of this industry where there is so much profiteering as in compound manures. An excessive price is charged simply because they are bagged and sold as well-balanced manures. A farmer who has experience and who carries on his farm economy in an up-to-date manner usually makes his own manures in the proportions which his land requires and which his experience considers justified.

This tariff might have a tendency to encourage the production of another commodity which has gone back in this country, and that is the burning of lime. Many farmers regard that as a valuable adjunct to farm economy. I, for one, am very anxious to encourage that side of it, but not by putting a tax upon what must be considered as a most valuable necessity for the tillage farmer in particular, and all other farmers, whether grass farmers or those who carry on mixed farming. Everyone knows that it is only by intensive cultivation of your farm that you can make agriculture pay now; by top-dressing land for meadowing, by highly manuring crops with well-balanced manures. Anyone who taxes an article which the farmer requires is striking a blow at agriculture which will have a more severe effect upon the farmer than any other form of imposition that could possibly be placed upon him.

Recently I was talking to a most intelligent farmer in West Cork, whose rent and rates were not very high. The way he put it was, that a shilling in the cwt. less for meal, and a halfpenny in the pound more for pork would be more to him than either derating or de-renting. He was carrying on production on a very small farm at a rate which showed what can be done with land when intelligence and capital are brought to bear. I happen to know the tillage farmer, and this is the one imposition which the tillage farmer is least able to bear. He may possibly do without a new plough. He may make the old one do, or he may work with deficient implements, but the one commodity he must have an adequate supply of, if he is in any way deficient in farmyard manure, is the artificial manure necessary for proper production. At the present time, that is the position which exists with a large number of farmers in tillage districts. I venture to say that there is very little of the land of the country that is not under-stocked, and that an adequate supply of farmyard manure is not made. No matter how much farmyard manure is made, you must supplement it by adequate mixtures of artificial manures if you are to carry on an expert and adequate farm economy. I have no hesitation in asking the Minister, therefore, not to place this imposition upon the agricultural community, who are already sufficiently burdened, particularly the tillage farmer. We have had recommendations from the Agricultural Department to go in for what is called rotational grazing. Is there anything which will put a stop to all the advantages which agricultural education has placed at our disposal more than the imposition which is about to be placed on it by the Minister? I certainly have no hesitation in opposing it. I believe that injury will be done to the agricultural community, from which they will not recover, by an imposition such as this.

Mr. O'Hanlon

I do not know whether the Minister put this tariff on superphosphates deliberately in order that he could withdraw it afterwards. Possibly that was his intention, and so lead the farmers to believe that there was only one thing in this list of tariffs which bore heavily upon them, and that having given that away he was giving a big concession to the farmers. If for no other reason than that it will promote competition, I think the Minister should give way.

Assuming even that the tariff of 20 per cent. would not affect prices, by allowing foreign manures to come in he will keep the home manure manufacturers and the English manure manufacturers within bounds in price. We have had it from experienced farmers, and those who sell manures, that undoubtedly there is from 17/6 to £1 per ton difference between the foreign and the home-manufactured manures. If this tariff goes on, undoubtedly there will be a much greater difference, probably about £2 per ton. In my own county, and also, I heard, in the Midland counties, some farmers this year were so badly-off that they could not use any artificial manure, and the crops had to go in without it, because they had not money to buy it. Here we have an opportunity of maintaining competition in the artificial manure business, and if you do away with that competition you will leave the farmers in a very bad position. I ask the Minister to withdraw this. So far as the yield to the revenue is concerned, I am sure it is not worth considering. If it is in the interests of any particular home manufacturers, I think that the interests of the farming community as a whole are far and away superior to the interests of any small group of manufacturers, who might by this tariff possibly give employment to a few extra men at the expense of the thousands of agriculturists in the country. I appeal to the Minister not to proceed with this.

Mr. Corry

You would think by the arguments put up here that this was a terrible imposition altogether. Those on the Opposite Benches who pretend to represent the farmers think that they should get foreign workers to grind the maize, foreign millers to mill the flour, but that they should get Irishmen to eat what they produce on the land. The total import last year of these manures was 32,000 tons. The tariff, therefore, would amount to something like £18,000. Deputy O'Shaughnessy said it was more than the agricultural grant—£18,000 as compared with £250,000! It shows the manner in which they make up their accounts.

A Deputy

How much tillage have you done?

Mr. O'Leary

It would be much more to some farmers.

Mr. Corry

I did a lot more than the gentleman who gets up here and talks about tillage and who never thinned his turnips.

Mr. Brasier

That statement is not true.

Mr. Corry

I know it very well. There are more "buachallans" growing in your farm than you could cut in a month.

Mr. Brasier

That statement is also untrue.

Mr. Corry

There are a thousand people employed in the manufacture of artificial manure in this country. If we let them go west, these people are going to fall on our shoulders in home assistance, and every Deputy knows that as well as I do. I know very well that we have got from the Minister what we were refused last year—£250,000 for the relief of rates. I for one am not going to stand in the way of extra employment in this country for men who are idle in it and in any efforts the Minister makes in that direction I shall help.

Mr. Lemass

I do not want to delay the time of the House in view of the fact that we have got to approve of the Resolution before 10.30 p.m. I just want to say that the speeches we have heard here displayed the most amazing ignorance of the situation in relation to this industry. In all these speeches Deputies assume that the farmers of the country have been depending on foreign sources for the supply of their artificial manures despite the fact that four out of every five farmers never use foreign manure. Out of a total consumption of about 200,000 tons, over 140,000 tons were produced within the country.

Mr. O'Hanlon

Why then put on a tariff?

Mr. Lemass

I shall tell the Deputy. We are going to put on a tariff for the reason that the British put on a tariff, and because the British put on a tariff, the foreign product, the Continental product, was being dumped into this country. Such a quantity came in here for the first few months of the year or during the winter that the existing factories were unable to dispose of the quantities they produced, and at this moment these factories are closing down and the men are being disemployed.

Mr. Gorey

Where?

Mr. Lemass

All over the country, in Wicklow, Drogheda and Dublin.

Mr. Corry

And in Cork.

Mr. Lemass

That is all due to the abnormal importation of artificial manure.

Mr. Brasier

There are other factories closing down simply because of tariffs.

Mr. Lemass

I say that farmers who have a different outlook to the Deputies who have spoken, four out of every five of them, have been using the home product. Five out of every five will use it as a result of this tariff. They will be placed in no worse position than the British farmer. A duty has been imposed in Britain on the importation of these manures, so that vis-a-vis his English competitor, the Irish farmer will be in no worse position. As a result of this tariff 1,000 men, as Deputy Corry stated, are going to be secured a livelihood in this country. In view of the fact that prices are going to be fixed by competition, and that the existing factories are quite competent to supply the entire requirements of the country, and also that the farmers are in no worse position than their competitors in Britain and Northern Ireland, it seems to me that there can be no reasonable objection to the tariff.

Mr. Brasier

The prices will go up as soon as the tariff has been applied.

Mr. Lemass

To this extent, that Continental artificial manures were being dumped here.

Mr. Brasier

You admit that prices will go up.

Mr. Lemass

Let us, then, shut down every factory that is not able to produce at an economic price. If that policy is adopted, if we allow into this country everything which we can get at a cheaper price than that at which it can be produced at home, you can shut down every factory, cut down every hedge and level out every fence, and concentrate on the production of live cattle, which is the one commodity in which we can compete with other countries. We can do that and keep a couple of hundred thousand people in this country. We would then have the type of country that the Deputy is endeavouring to create here.

Mr. Moore

Are Deputy O'Hanlon and Deputy Brasier satisfied that if the factories in the Free State go out of existence prices in the Free State will remain as they are now? Are they quite satisfied that foreign manufacturers, even manufacturers of manures, will still be reasonable and have consideration for the Irish users? Is it not the case that in England there is a proposal by leading politicians to manipulate prices so that profits may be increased? Will that not apply to the manure industry if we are left to the mercy of foreign manufacturers? Are they quite sure that when the manure factories in Wicklow and other towns disappear that the farmer will be all right? It is absolute nonsense. Those who pretend to be farmers should have some consideration.

Mr. MacEntee

Might I remind the House there is an arrangement that these Resolutions, with the amendments, should be through the House before 10.30?

Mr. Gorey

This is one of the matters that we wish to concentrate upon. I have not spoken at all to-day except on fleas.

Mr. MacEntee

An appropriate subject for the Deputy.

Mr. Gorey

I was looking at the Minister and I could not resist it. Does the Minister say that the total consumption is 200,000 tons?

Mr. Lemass

It is somewhat less; 190,000.

Mr. Gorey

The Minister has talked about dumping in this country because of the English tariffs. There was no dumping last winter. Only 32,000 tons came over last spring.

Mr. Lemass

In the first three months of the year the imports increased by 25 per cent.

Mr. Gorey

If Deputy Corry's figures are correct, only 32,000 tons came in for the year.

Mr. Lemass

The total imports in 1930 amounted to 32,000. The total imports in the first three months of this year were 25,000 tons.

Mr. Gorey

That may be, but it has not reached the 32,000 mark.

Mr. Corry

How do you know?

Mr. Gorey

Deputy Corry has gone round to several Deputies asking them to make a case against this tariff.

Mr. Corry

Question.

Mr. Gorey

We want to be honest.

Mr. O'Neill

It is quite true.

Mr. Gorey

He has gone to several Deputies to make a case against it.

Mr. Corry

Be honest.

Mr. O'Leary

Could the Minister give us the figures for the last year and the year before?

Mr. Gorey

The most the Minister could say was that 25,000 tons came in in the first three months of the year. That is the only time it would come in, in the month of February and March. The season is over now. We are told by the Minister and by Deputy Corry that the figure is 32,000 tons.

Mr. Lemass

It is up 25 per cent. on last year.

Mr. Gorey

There was a time when we could buy fertilisers at £2 17s. 0d. a ton. What would we pay if there were no competition, if the 32,000 tons were not coming in? What were we paying before fertilisers were imported and compare that with what we paid after they were allowed in. It is up to the Minister to give us definite information on these matters. What was the position when manufacturers combined themselves into a ring and what was the jump in price as soon as the ring was perfected? Fortunately the North African fertilisers, not to talk of the Belgian or the Dutch, were imported. The North African is a high-grade phosphate. The Minister should give us some indication of what the prices are likely to be when competition is excluded. People got three times as much sulphate of ammonia last year as during the year before and that was because of the war between the two sulphate companies. It cost this year £6 a ton.

I believe this proposal will have the effect of choking off all competition. We will shut out the 32,000 tons of fertilisers that we have been importing. All the people interested in this country are going in procescessions to the Minister anxious to get a job done, and the Minister believes them, regardless of who has to do the paying. The Minister talks about £250,000 in this connection. If the competition is ruled out I believe that it will mean an extra cost of £200,000 or £300,000 on the farmers. I suggest he should take off this tariff.

Mr. O'Leary

I would like to ask the Minister if it is not a fact that the merchants submitted that there would be increased tillage as a result of a tariff on oats and is not that to some extent responsible for the increase of 25 per cent. in the importation of artificial manures?

Professor O'Sullivan

I suggest a good deal of time would be saved if the Minister gave us a little more information of the type asked for a fortnight ago. There is no use in giving us a list of articles like spades and shovels, maize meal and superphosphates and indicating a sum of £56,000. That is absurd. Industrially there is not much connection between the production of these things, however close they may come afterwards. If we had a more detailed schedule it would shorten the business considerably and numerous questions could have been avoided. The Minister must have the information, and I suggest that such information as he has, granted it is only a guess, should be circulated to the House.

Mr. MacEntee

As the House is aware, there was an arrangement that all the Resolutions and the Government amendments would be taken before 10.30. Is that agreement going to be observed?

Mr. Gorey

Certainly.

Mr. MacEntee

If not, it will be necessary to move that the House sit late.

Mr. Gorey

Whatever undertaking was given will be honoured.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not discussing this with Deputy Gorey. I am discussing it with responsible members of the Opposition.

Mr. Gorey

Anyone here is just as responsible as the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must keep in order.

Mr. MacEntee

I want some indication that the undertaking will be kept.

Mr. Gorey

You got the undertaking and that is all the indication you will get.

Mr. MacEntee

I am suggesting to the occupants of the Front Bench opposite that it is essential the discussion on these Resolutions should terminate at 9.30 and that we should proceed then to complete the financial business.

General Mulcahy

I would like to ask if the position is that this discussion is to go on to whatever point the Government Party think it should reach, and then we are to pass, without division, all these Resolutions and amendments. Is that the attitude of the Government Party? Is it suggested that we are to take all these Resolutions and do without divisions where normally we would challenge divisions? Normally we would oppose probably nine Resolutions in the Division Lobby.

Professor O'Sullivan

I understand the arrangement is that anything in these Resolutions that we have not discussed we can discuss to-morrow.

Mr. MacEntee

On the General Resolution.

Professor O'Sullivan

If the Minister wants a division on this particular Resolution now——

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know whether a division is wanted. I suggest it would take up unnecessary time. The House should bear in mind that on the Committee Stage there will be opportunities for further discussion.

Professor O'Sullivan

We could scarcely be expected to let such an important matter as this pass without a division.

Mr. Lemass

When we decided to take the Resolutions item by item it was for the purpose of information, not for the purpose of debating each item individually.

Professor O'Sullivan

I suggest we should finish with the Resolutions now and resume the debate to-morrow on matters not now discussed.

Mr. MacEntee

Very well.

An Ceann Comhairle

It will take ten minutes to conclude these Resolutions and ten minutes for a division, which, I understand, is to be challenged.

Mr. Lemass

A division on what?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have been informed by a responsible leader of the Opposition that it is intended to challenge a division. There are eighteen resolutions and fifteen amendments, and it is a matter of mathematical calculation to see whether they can all be dealt with under an hour. It is quite possible questions will have to be asked for the purpose of eliciting information.

Professor O'Sullivan

No questions need be asked so far as Resolution 7 is concerned. We would be quite willing to have the amendments and the Resolutions put now on the understanding that the debate can be resumed to-morrow where it stops short this evening.

General Mulcahy

If the Government are moving the amendments formally and the Resolutions formally, assuming you are finished with No. 7, surely it will not take ten minutes to finish off the Resolutions and the amendments in that way? If that is the procedure it is a question of estimating what time it will take to do that in respect of Resolution 8 and the remaining Resolutions and amendments.

Mr. MacEntee

I think this matter is much too serious to take any risk in respect of it. We must have some margin in hand.

An Ceann Comhairle

There might be an understanding that we could sit until 11 o'clock, if necessary, in order to finish.

Mr. Hayes

There is no danger unless a division is challenged before 10.30 on a Resolution other than the last. Is not that the position? There is no danger, unless before 10.25 such a division is challenged. I suggest the Chair should start now to put all the amendments, and if any Deputy wants a division let it be taken on a particular Resolution, on the understanding that whatever happens we can go on with the Resolutions. If no division is challenged we can go on to 11 o'clock, if that is considered advisable.

Mr. MacEntee

This matter was discussed at the beginning of public business, when certain Deputies took exception to the agreement. Would the Opposition be in a position to bind those Deputies?

Mr. Hayes

If the Ceann Comhairle and the Opposition are on the Minister's side nothing can happen to him.

An Ceann Comhairle

We shall now take the amendments.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment a 8:

In the Schedule Ref. No.24, page 11, in the second column to delete the word "twenty-five" and substitute the word "eighteen."

I may be able to meet Deputy Alton in relation to his proposal. There are difficulties, but I think we will be able to meet him.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment 10: (a):

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 30, page 11, in the second column, after the word "iron" to add the words "or steel, excluding unworked flat sheets of such iron."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment 10 (b):

In the Schedule, Ref. No. 33, page 12, in the second column, after the word "carpets" to insert the word "carpeting."

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment 12—In the Schedule, Ref. No. 34, page 12, in the second column, after the word "goods" to add the words "and also excluding component parts of type-setting machines or of type-composing machines." (Aire Airgid)—agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Resolution, as amended, reported.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move that the Dáil agree with the Committee in Financial Resolution Number 7 as amended on recommittal.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 53.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Brady, Bryan.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Browne, William Frazer.
• Carty, Frank.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamonn.
• Corish, Richard.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Dowdall, Thomas P.
• Everett, James.
• Flinn, Hugo V.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Geoghegan, James.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Gormley, Francis.
• Gorry, Patrick Joseph.
• Goulding, John.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Kelly, James Patrick.
• Keyes, Raphael Patrick.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Kissane, Eamonn.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Lynch, James B.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Maguire, Conor Alexander.
• Moane, Edward.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Norton, William.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas J.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• Rice, Edward.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Brasier, Brooke.
• Broderick, William Jos.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Davis, Michael.
• Desmond, William.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
• Finlay, Thomas A.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis John.
• Hassett, John J.
• Hayes, Michael.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Keating, John.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Lynch, Finian.
• MacDermott, Frank.
• McDonogh, Fred.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Minch, Sydney B.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James Edward.
• Nally, Martin.
• O'Connor, Batt.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Neill, Eamonn.
• O'Shaughnessy, John Joseph.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reynolds, Mrs. Mary.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Vaughan, Daniel.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies G. Boland and Allen; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Bennett.

Question declared carried.

Mr. MacEntee

The Opposition have indicated that they are anxious to have divisions on Resolutions Nos. 9 and 14. Will it be possible for me to recommit these Resolutions?

Mr. Blythe

I would suggest that all the motions be taken and that we have divisions on these two, and that we resume then on No. 26, dealing with superphosphates.

An Ceann-Comhairle

Would the Deputy agree to take Resolutions 9 and 14 first and get the divisions over?

Mr. Blythe

No. Could we not take them all?