Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 1932

Vol. 44 No. 8

Vote 53—Forestry.

Dr. Ryan

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £20,815 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta. (9 agus 10 Geo. 5 c. 58; Uimh. 16 de 1924; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928).

That a sum not exceeding £20,815 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry. (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; No. 16 of 1924; and No. 34 of 1928).

Mr. Davin

On the question of the allocation of moneys set aside for afforestation work, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister, though I understand his attention has been already drawn to this matter in correspondence, to the fact that in several areas, at least three or four that I am aware of, at any rate, men have been engaged on this work and paid different rates of wages. The question has been taken up with the Minister on the one hand, and the Department of Finance on the other, and the excuse given for paying wages at the rate of 23/- to one set of men and 28/- to another is that the money is money that comes out of different funds for this purpose. On the one hand money is being spent out of funds for the relief of unemployment, and the other out of the Vote now before the House. I cannot understand, and my colleagues cannot understand, why men engaged on the same class of work, working under the same ganger, in the same place, should be paid for the same kind of work at a different rate of wages, and I suggest to the Minister that he should get into early consultation with the Minister for Finance, because he appears to be the principal Minister to blame in the matter, and see that this matter is put right and that men engaged on the same class of work, working in the same place under the same ganger are paid the same wages. I hope in that matter also the usual rate of wages in future will be recognised that is, 25/- and not 23/- as is being paid in some cases.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

I want to make a serious complaint and a complaint which I have made for the past three or four years in connection with this Vote and that is the very small progress the Forestry Department is making. If one judges by the time it takes to acquire land and the completion of all the formalities in connection with the acquisition of land there would be very little practical forestry done in our time, and another generation would have to complete the job. I can see no excuse for the delay in the absence of any definite effort on behalf of the Forestry Department to acquire lands and to proceed with schemes of re-afforestation. It has been advocated as long as some of us can remember and while I appreciate the difficulties which must of necessity exist in the acquisition of lands, I feel that during the last six months a very definite scheme of re-afforestation ought to have been worked out, and the planting season, which will terminate about next March, ought to be fully utilised for the planting of suitable timber in various parts of the country. This would seem a very useful opportunity for absorbing the unemployed labour in the country and for doing really practical work. The money spent on bog roads and things of that kind gives in the end a comparatively small return, and the money spent in this way would in the end give a very good return and would be extremely useful. I hope before the Minister closes and before this Estimate is passed that he will give some indication as to the policy of his Department in this matter. I have nothing but complaints of and dissatisfaction with this administration for the last three or four years, and I hope the Minister will give us some indication as to a change in policy and a very speedy change.

Mr. O'Hara

Is the Minister aware that in the district which I come from no man can be a ganger except a man nominated by the County Surveyor? Is he aware that Fianna Fáil have clubs there and meet there on Sundays to decide who should be the people who should work on these works during the week? Is he aware that a number of outdoor relief cases have been deprived of work? If there is an inquiry I can prove these things to the hilt, and I ask the Minister, perhaps he is not aware of it and I am sure he is too much of a gentleman to allow it, to look into these matters. As I say, the thing is a gross injustice in a poor district. In one case I had to turn round and get a Home Assistance Officer and Superintending Officer to get people on work where they were refused by the Chairman of the County Council. Whether we call ourselves benefactors or something of that kind, I say we are not worthy of being on the Council if we permit the present state of affairs to continue. At the present day, the Chairman of the County Council can say, "We are the men who have to decide who will be ganger or who are the men who will work on the roads." I can prove up to the hilt where men with £500 or £600 have worked on the roads, not as gangers either but as labourers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy allow me——

Mr. O'Hara

Excuse me for a minute.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will please sit down.

Mr. O'Hara

Perhaps I have said enough.

An Ceann Comhairle

I just want to ask the Deputy whether these roads run through forests because the Vote before us is for afforestation.

Mr. O'Hara

They are county roads.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then they have nothing to do with afforestation.

Mr. Brasier

I briefly wish to direct the attention of the Minister to the delay in taking over certain lands in my constituency which have been given over for afforestation. There is no better means of relieving unemployment at present than by taking over these lands and employing labourers in planting them. They would be a big national asset and could quickly be converted into money in the course of time. I would ask the Minister to expedite the taking over of these lands and also to utilise lands in the hands of the Land Commission where they are available.

Mr. Morrissey

I should like to add a few words on the point raised by Deputy Davin. I am sure that Deputy Davin is quite correct in the point he made in regard to differentiation in wages. I do not want to blame the present Minister for that differentiation. Even under his predecessor, we had as much as 30/- per week paid in one area and as low as 23/- or 20/- paid in other areas. When the matter was raised in former years on this Estimate we were told by the then Minister that the rate of wages was based on the agricultural wage in the district. I want to know from the Minister if that policy is still being carried out and if he is going to carry that policy to its logical conclusion. I hope he is not. I cannot see why, say in Tipperary, where I must say a good deal of work is being carried on by the Department under this Vote on hills which run into Waterford, the workers should get more or less than the workers in Waterford engaged on the same work. I certainly cannot see why men engaged on this particular scheme who have to travel five or six or, as far as eight miles, to and from their work, should in many cases get a lower wage than men who have to travel say only one mile. I should like to hear the Minister on the point as regards differentiation, and also to hear from him whether he or his Department has any really national scheme of afforestation in hands. From year to year, certainly for six or seven years on every Estimate we were told by the late Government that they had a scheme of afforestation, that they were considering it and that it was going to be put into operation. Here we are now in 1932 just as far from dealing with afforestation in a proper manner as we were six or seven years ago. I should also like the Minister to tell us, if he has the details at his disposal — it is probably hardly fair to ask him at the moment — of the work which has been done in County Tipperary during the last year and what work he proposes to do in the coming year. If the Minister has not that information at hand I do not wish to press him, but I should like to emphasise the point that in my opinion there is no work which is more useful from the point of view of giving employment and certainly no work that is more useful from the point of view of the nation. I should like if the Minister would give a good deal of attention to this matter.

I want to say without commenting in any way on certain other schemes with which the Minister is dealing and to which perhaps he has given priority over this question of afforestation that, in my opinion, given for what it is worth — it may not be worth very much — a really national scheme of afforestation would be much more useful to the nation, and would give much more employment than many of the schemes he has in hands at the moment. I suggest that he should consider the matter from that point of view. In regard to the question of wages I would suggest to the Minister that whatever he or his Department may decide upon as a maximum or a minimum wage for this national work, we should not have district wages fixed for national work. If it is national work there should be a national wage. In view of the pro-nouncements of the Minister and his colleagues—I do not want to par-ticularise at the moment—I think he should fix the maximum wage established by the late Government as their minimum, not only as local wages but as a national scale.

Mr. Corry

I should also like to call the attention of the Minister to what I might describe as the unfair delay in taking over the lands for the purposes of afforestation. There are lands at Glenville which have been considered by the Department for afforestation purposes for twelve months and there is not a move yet. I refer to the lands of Mr. O'Driscoll. I should like in particular to re-echo the statement made by Deputy Davin and by Deputy Morrissey in regard to wages. I do not know what drove the present system into the heads of this Department. I know a very bad example was shown by the last Executive Council in the matter of wages. I do not think that statement made by the local Farmers' Union as to the wages they can afford to pay their farm labourers should be taken as a standard by any Department in the payment of wages. I think the very idea of asking men to work at 23/- a week——

Mr. Morrissey

Or less.

Mr. Corry

——is scandalous. I suggest to the Minister that he should fix a minimum wage of at least 30/-per week. I will certainly say that the minimum wage should be higher than the maximum fixed by the late Minister for Local Government. Farm labourers in my district are paid from 30/- to 35/- per week. I would not accept the croaking of Farmers' Union men on this subject, men who hire one man for a fortnight in the harvest and talk about it for eleven and a half months afterwards. I would not take their croaking as a guide in fixing a rate of wages, because that means a scandalous rate of wages in some cases. I consider enough has been said upon this matter. I know the mind of the Minister and I am sure he will rectify matters at once. I urge him to speed things up. There seems to be some branch of his Department that has gone to sleep, and if he does not wake it up we will have to do so ourselves.

Mr. Corish

I should like to endorse the complaint of the various Deputies who spoke in regard to the low rates of wages paid for forestry work. I agree that a national wage should be fixed for work of this kind, because forestry is a national asset. Work of this kind will bear fruit, in the near future, and one would expect that the Government of the country should set a headline for employers in the matter of wages. But apart from wages, the conditions under which some people engaged in forestry are compelled to work are absolutely ridiculous. I know places where men come on for their day's work at 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning, and just because the ganger does not happen to be there, and because it began to rain an hour or two afterwards, these men were told to go home and were not allowed any wages for that day. Such things as that should not prevail, and where they do prevail they should be stopped. The Forestry Department should investigate complaints of that kind, and if they do I am prepared to lay a case before them.

I should like to ask the Minister what is being done, so far, in regard to the planting of the Forth Mountain in Wexford. For some years past this matter has been raised both by myself and the present Minister for Agriculture before he became Minister. Certain defects were always pointed out. We were told that it was not possible to have this place cleared until the Forestry Act was passed. We have had the Forestry Act now for the past two or three years and still very little has been done on the Forth Mountain. The Minister knows the country, and the necessity there is for work, owing to the number of people unemployed. I suggest that he should get something done with greater speed than has been shown in the past. A little has been done in the way of fencing, and things of that kind, but unless some move is made in the future little planting will be done this year.

There is another place in my constituency fit for afforestation to which I wish to call attention, and that is the Bunclody estate in the north part of Wexford. Prior to the Cumann na nGaedheal Party going out of office attempts were made by the officials of the Department of Agriculture to acquire land there. At that time it was impossible to get the owners to sell. Now I understand the land is available, and I urge upon the Minister the necessity of having inspectors sent down to have this land taken over. There are large numbers of unemployed people in that district, and by setting work going there, he will do a great deal to relieve the situation. I would urge the Minister to have an inquiry made into the conditions that prevail for forestry workers and, above everything else, to have a wage established that could be looked upon as a national wage for doing work which is going to prove a national asset.

Mr. Kilroy

I would like to remind the Minister of something of which I am sure he is well aware, and that is, that for some years there has been an afforestation scheme in the country to which there is allocated a certain sum of money. All during the years since I came into the Dáil I have been advocating the planting of waste land in West Mayo. There are about a dozen areas in West Mayo that could be easily secured for afforestation purposes. Every year they are becoming more easy to secure because of the falling off of the market for cattle. Some years ago there was an enhanced price for cattle raised on the mountains, as stores, for fattening on better land. Now the markets have fallen to such an extent that it is not a profitable industry, and, therefore, the people owning those mountain lands have practically no use for them. I would remind the Minister that there is no difficulty in securing far more land than he can plant. He could easily spend all the money voted on the mountain districts in Mayo, if he would cover the areas there procurable for afforestation. There is scarcely any way, in the West, that he could more profitably expend money, because once the scheme is started there would be an outlet for the employment of thousands of unemployed men, most of whom are migratory labourers. They went to England and Scotland in past years. Those who have gone across this year are appealing to their friends to send them money to take them home from the potato and harvest fields of England and Scotland.

Mr. Anthony

Boycott British goods!

Mr. Kilroy

Because these labourers cannot acquire work on the other side, I would remind the Minister of the extreme necessity of finding work for them here which would be of much more profit to the nation. If afforestation is taken up, and work found for those men, tree-planting work can also be found for a great many others. There is the work of clearing and fencing, transplanting, and all that kind of thing. Very few industries would give more employment than afforestation. Therefore, I would impress upon the Minister the need of taking up this particular industry and acquiring a portion of the waste lands in Mayo in order that we may secure some measure of employment at least for the people in those districts who have at present nothing to fall back upon.

Mr. Curran

If the Minister is going to continue to pay the wages in this industry that the previous Government did, it would be almost better to let the men die without work than having them die slowly at the present rate of wages they are paid. It is all right for some Deputies to laugh at that statement, but I would like to see any Deputy here having to travel, every day, ten miles to his work and ten miles back, handed a pound at the end of the week. Sometimes men who travel ten miles to and from their work, having worked for two or three hours, get nothing at all for it. It would be better to have no work than that the Minister should stand for murder in the name of such work, for that was what the late Government did. It was nothing but wholesale murder to ask men to travel twenty miles each day in the country and hand them a pound as wages at the end of the week. It is the wage question I am speaking of now entirely. I want to see industry established throughout the country, but if the Minister stands for the rate of wages paid to labourers during the last eight or nine years to men working in all classes of weather, he is not fit to be Minister for Agriculture. I say that without any hesitation, having regard to the wages paid during the last seven or eight years. Thirty shillings has been mentioned, but you would get that for walking the streets. If a man is working, then pay him a decent wage. I hope the wages will not be less than £2 per week at least. If I am in the House when this Vote comes up again, and a fair and proper wage is not being paid, I shall oppose it for all I am worth.

Mr. Little

A suggestion has been made to me which I should like to pass on for what it is worth. It is small in itself, but it may be useful. There was a time here when an Arbor Day was held each year and, by voluntary co-operation on the part of the people, trees were planted all over the country. The suggestion is that the Forestry Department should encourage the holding of an Arbor Day again. In a particular district the number of trees planted would be small, but scattered all over the country they would altogether come to quite a good number, by getting the people interested to co-operate and plant trees as has been done in other countries. It does not mean a great deal, but it would be useful in some places and might help to create a new interest in the growing of trees.

Mr. Flynn

I would ask the Minister to consider the question of afforestation in Kerry, particularly in the south and west. The Kerry County Committee of Agriculture have put forward a scheme, but the principal matter that will operate against it is that unless there is an area of several hundred acres the Department will not consider a scheme. In certain parts of Kerry that will operate against us, because at the outset from 100 to 150 acres of land would be the approximate area for which schemes could be put forward. I would ask the Minister, when considering that scheme of afforestation for Kerry, to give attention to that point. There is another important matter. In certain parts of the county plots of land are in the hands of the Land Commission which are more or less commonages which are not being utilised. If a scheme could be devised whereby the Department of Agriculture could get the title of these plots transferred we could carry out afforestation schemes and it would provide a workable solution of the problem. I would impress on the Minister the necessity for giving this question consideration so far as Kerry is concerned. As other Deputies have said, we have heard a great deal about afforestation schemes in the past, but nothing has been done. I can assure the Minister that as far as Kerry is concerned we will do everything possible to put schemes forward, and it will be up to the Department to see that they get the consideration they deserve.

Dr. Ryan

I have been asked certain questions by different Deputies. With regard to our policy in connection with forestry, there is no limit to what we are prepared to plant provided we get the land on certain terms. I do not know what the limit may be under our scheme until I find out how much land we can get. We will take all the land offered to us for afforestation on certain conditions. The first is that the land is suitable for planting. That knocks out quite a lot of land. Quite a lot of the land offered is not suitable for planting because it is either barren mountain or bog. If it is suitable for planting we are prepared to take it. We must get it, however, at a fair price, which is usually not very difficult. Price is not the big difficulty as a rule. The next condition is that we must get it in certain sized lots. In starting a new forest it appears to be very uneconomic to start with less than 350 acres. Deputy Flynn mentioned that the Kerry County Committee were anxious that we should take on 100 or 150 acres. If there were three lots of 150 acres close together it might be possible to take them on, provided the boundaries were not too long, as fencing would be rather difficult. On the other hand, the supervision, of course, would be all right in that case if the three lots were close together and made up 350 acres between them, or if there was a lot of 100 or 150 acres close to an existing forest it could be taken over. If we get suitable land for planting in suitable sized lots and at a price we can pay, we are quite prepared to take all the land offered to us.

At the present time we are examining in the Department all the land that has been offered to us to see how much we can take over and how much is fit for planting. After that we mean to make a sort of quick survey of the country to see how much we can expect to get in the years to come. It is only after that that we will be in a position to say what our policy is going to be, whether we are going to plant in future 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 or 50,000 acres in the year. We cannot make up our minds until we know what land we can get and at what price. I do admit that it is one of the best means for giving employment in the way of relief. It does give employment, particularly in the winter, and in the rural areas where it is badly wanted in many cases. With regard to wages, when we took over office there was a complaint made to me from a few centres that some men were being paid 28/- per week and others 23/- and 24/-. When I inquired into that I found that the regular forestry workers were getting 28/- and those taken on for relief schemes 23/- or 24/-.

Mr. Curran

Why?

Dr. Ryan

I do not know. That was when we came into office. The Deputy will have to ask the Party opposite why that was done. There is an interdepartmental committee which fixes those rates of wages and they do, as a matter of fact, I am told, fix different rates for different counties. However, the particular complaint made to me at that time was that there were two lots of men, one lot working at 28/- and the other at 24/-. I succeeded in getting that matter put right after some time. That matter was made right probably about May last and up to the present I have not received any further complaints. We usually do not interfere in these matters when there are no complaints. As complaints have been made to-night, I must examine into the matter again and see what wages are being paid. I do not agree with having two rates of wages, one for regular forestry workers and the other for relief workers.

I was asked about the amount of planting in certain areas. Deputy Morrissey asked about Tipperary. There would be about 735 acres planted in Tipperary and Waterford this season, and on the mountain of Forth 162 acres planted this year. The mountain of Forth is a rather difficult place to get going, but we hope to succeed in getting 162 acres planted. We shall at least be able to plant this year, as in former years, 3,500 acres. I think we may exceed that, but if we do not exceed it in planting, we hope to exceed the amount of work done in the way of clearing and fencing. As to the delay in taking over land, which was the only other point raised, I am told there was land offered in East Cork and that there was considerable delay about taking it over. There are very often delays and very long delays. Sometimes, there are, in some of these estates, a variety of claims such as commonages, easements and so on, and it takes a long time to get over the legal difficulties and to get the land taken over. Sometimes, we may feel that if we do not bite too quickly, we will get the land much cheaper than if we appear to be anxious for it. I think, perhaps, that that would be the experience of anybody who wants to buy land or anything else at the present time. If you pretend that you do not want the land at all and let them come to you a second time, you will get it much cheaper than you would have got it if you had taken it the first time. The delay is sometimes due to the price asked and sometimes to legal difficulties, and, where we have been able to get over legal difficulties, and where the price has been fair to us, I find that the land has, in some cases, been taken over very quickly, and practically as quickly as a private individual could take the land. Since the Forestry Department came under my charge, I have seen certain lands taken over as quickly as any private individual would be able to take them over, where we felt that we were getting good value and where we felt there were no legal difficulties.

Mr. Brasier

Might I ask the Minister if he is prepared to take over Mount Uniacke at Inch, Killeagh and Carrigacunna, Killavullen, in East Cork? These are a very long time in the hands of the Land Commission, and I would ask him to expedite the taking over of them. They have been inspected by his Department.

Dr. Ryan

They have been inspected.

Mr. Brasier

They have agreed to take them over.

Dr. Ryan

We can expedite it, if so.

Mr. S. Brodrick

Would the Minister think it advisable to take over, for forestry purposes, in or about 600 acres of land adjacent to the agricultural station at Athenry? I believe it would be a great help, because there are a number of students there from year to year, and it would be an education for them and they could probably spread the knowledge they gained there throughout the country. I know that the land was inspected some years ago, and as to the reasons why the land was not taken over, I believe there was a price set on the land, which lies a mile or a mile and a half from the agricultural station at Athenry and is about 600 acres in extent.

Mr. Corish

Would the Minister undertake to have inspectors sent to the Bunclody area that I mentioned?

Dr. Ryan

I think Bunclody has been taken over, but I am not sure. There is one station there, at any rate, which has been taken over. There was another point raised by Deputy Corish and, later, by Deputy Curran, with regard to men going to work who had to go away without being paid because the ganger was not there. If any man reports for work in the morning in the ordinary way, even if it is wet, he is supposed to be paid, and the ganger was at fault, and not the man, if that has occurred.

Mr. Corish

It has occurred.

Vote 53 agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand that it has been agreed to postpone Vote 54—Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services—until to-morrow.

Mr. Lynch

I would like to have it postponed until 12.30 to-morrow. I would like to hear the statement in regard to this Vote and I cannot be here at the start of business in the morning.

Dr. Ryan

That would be Private Members' Time.

Mr. Lynch

There is an understanding that it should not come on to-night.

Dr. Ryan

The difficulty is that Private Members' Time will come on at 12 o'clock.

Mr. Lynch

Under those circumstances, I think it should be postponed until next week. I do not think there is any difficulty about the Government taking Private Members' Time.

Mr. Briscoe

I believe that an arrangement was come to whereby it was definitely agreed to give Private Members' Time on Fridays until the end of the session in lieu of Private Members' Time on Wednesday evening. I think that was agreed by all Parties.

Mr. Lynch

Very good.

General Mulcahy

I think there is some misunderstanding.

Mr. Lynch

At any rate, I would ask that Vote No. 54 be postponed until next week, because I cannot be here before 12 o'clock to-morrow, and I desire to hear the Minister's statement on the work of the Fisheries Department since he came into office, because this is really the first year in which we have seen the Sea Fisheries Association in operation. I think it is only fair to the House and to the country that we should have a statement of that kind. I will not delay the House when the Vote comes to be discussed more than about twenty-five minutes or half an hour, but I am really desirous of hearing a statement from the Department.

The President

The position is, as Deputies are probably aware, that we must get the Estimates through the House by the 9th November. What we could do is this: We could postpone it to the end of the Estimates if that would suit. There is another matter. I understand that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries is unwell and I doubt whether he will be able to make a statement at all. We could, however, arrange at a later period for a statement to be made and give the Deputy time to deal with it.

Mr. Lynch

I quite appreciate what the President says. I regret that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries will not be able to be here to make his statement, but I am quite prepared to accept a statement from any other Minister from the Department on the work of the Department, but if it would suit him and, if there is any hope of his being able to be here at the end of the Estimates, I would much prefer that he would be here.

The President

We will do our best to facilitate the Deputy. I do not know to what extent it can really be done on account of the question of time, but, perhaps, on the Appropriation Bill, there will also be an opportunity for discussion.