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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Nov 1932

Vol. 44 No. 9

Vote 68—Electrical Battery Development.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim na raghaidh thar £9,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun Taighde agus Forbairte maidir le Baiterí Leictreachais.

That a sum not exceeding £9,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for Electrical Battery Research and Development.

Prior to the current financial year, the Dáil provided a sum of £30,300 for the purpose of electrical battery development, made up as follows: there were two sums of £5,000 and £300, respectively, advanced from the Contingency Fund in the financial years 1928-29 and 1929-30, and, in the financial year 1930-31, a special Vote for battery development of £25,000 was taken. In putting that Vote to the Dáil, the Minister for Industry and Commerce made it clear that the sums advanced, and then being voted, did not cover the full amount of liabilities in respect of the Drumm Battery. He outlined that he had made an agreement with the Great Southern Railways Company for the provision of charging stations, installation of electric motors, etc., in connection with extended tests to be carried out on the Battery to ascertain its value for traction purposes. It was agreed with the railway company that this expenditure should be incurred by the company out of its own funds, it being agreed that the Battery Company would provide new batteries and the expenditure of the company should not be reimbursed by the Minister, unless the entire experiments on the Battery proved a failure and were abandoned.

As regards the construction of coaches, it was agreed that this should be, in the main, a liability of the railway company. That position still operated and that contingent liability is still there and it is necessary to draw the attention of the Dáil to the fact. It is not, however, proposed to ask for a Vote to cover the liabilities at this stage as it is not necessary, nor is any part of the money now being voted required for that purpose. The late Government decided at the request of the Board of the Drumm Battery Company, to make a further provision of £25,000 in this year. When the change of Government took place, however, I had certain discussions with the Company, and it was agreed that, out of that total of £25,000, there would be provided only the amount necessary to maintain the existing organisation of the Company and to complete the programme of construction of the Battery coaches which was then on hands. The amount mentioned in these discussions was about £8,000. A further sum of about £4,000 will be required by the Company to continue the same activity until the end of the present financial year.

Certain other proposals for experimental work were not being proceeded with. The attitude I took at the time, and the attitude I still maintain, is that we cannot ask the Dáil to vote any substantial sums for the development of this Battery until two positions have been reached (1) that we have got secured patents for the Battery and (2) that we have secured a report from a competent and reputable firm of consulting engineers as to its value for traction purposes. The position is at present that patents have been granted in a number of countries, but in Great Britain, Germany and the United States of America, they have not yet been granted. There is however no reason to anticipate that any difficulty will arise——

Could they have, in the time, been granted in these countries?

If the Deputy would let me make my own speech, I would prefer it. There is no reason to anticipate, as I was saying, that the applications are not following the usual course or that difficulty will arise in that connection but it is my view that heavy financial liabilities should not be incurred until they have been secured. If the Deputy wants any comment on that matter, I would refer him to his original speech when he came to the Dáil in 1928 and talked about the assignment of a patent. There was no such assignment. The Company has also commissioned a firm of consulting engineers of international repute to make a report on the value of the Battery for traction purposes. That firm has had its representatives here and they have been making certain investigations and they are continuing those investigations. It is not, however, anticipated that the report will be available for some months yet, although, in view of the period of time which its preparation will involve, they have been asked for an interim report, which, I understand, is at present being drafted.

The two new Battery coaches which were constructed during the year have been tried out and the Company has reported to me that they have proved satisfactory in every way. An average of 230 miles is being run per day and there is apparently no reason to anticipate that the Battery is not technically satisfactory. The position at present is that investigations and research work have more or less ceased. The Battery which is now installed in the two new coaches represents, as I have been informed, the last word on the Drumm Battery——

The last word on the Drumm Battery, and it is upon that Battery——

The two coaches that are now on the line represent the last word?

The Battery which is installed in the two new coaches which were constructed this year represents, as I have been informed by the Company, the Battery on which they are staking their reputation, and on which they hope to achieve commercial success. That was the precise phrase used to me.

The last word?

The last word. It is, I may say, perhaps undesirable that I should say more about the matter at the present time. By the end of next February, or thereabouts, we will have much more definite information concerning the commercial value of the invention when the report of the firm of consulting engineers is available, and, also, on the patent position, which should be cleared up by then.

May I say that I never in my life heard a success reported so sourly to this House as this has been done. Look at the phrase the Minister thought fit to use—"There is no reason to anticipate that it will not be successful"—and then going along with a statement which I conceive to be an entire misstatement about this Battery, and partly corrected in the fumbling explanation which was afterwards given.

The Battery is now installed in two coaches actually in operation on the line, and we are told that it represents the last word. I would like the Minister seriously to query that before he comes to the House again. I am quite prepared to believe that he has been told that the Battery represents such an advance that the inventor and those associated with him are prepared to stake their reputations upon what has been achieved so far; but to say that we have got to the limit of the development of this invention is an outrageous statement. Even if the Minister for Finance had been in here when the statement was made, with his limited knowledge of patents he would have known that that was an amazing statement.

The Minister cought also to tell the House frankly the answer to the interjection I made. First of all, we were told that the Government are seeking more money, but the position had been assured because we had got patents. The implication of that statement, until it was corrected later, was that we had not previously got patent protection anywhere. Then we were informed we had not got patents in America or Germany. I asked was it possible within a certain period of time to get them and the Minister has not answered that question. It is certainly a wrong thing to allow it to go from this House to the country that there is a suspicion that in the time that has elapsed protection could have been got in Germany and America, but was not got. Surely that raises the suspicion in people's minds that an objection of some kind had been discovered.

It should be made clear that there is a difference between the patent system in this country and in other countries such as Germany and America. In some countries when you ask for a patent with various degrees of certainty you are given a statement to the effect that as far as they know you have not been anticipated. If anybody likes to query whether or not you have been anticipated, the onus is left on the owner of the patent to prove his right. In the case of America and Germany there is a definite guarantee which the State is prepared to defend. There is an obvious repercussion there. A much more intense search is made in America and Germany against anticipations than would be the case in France where all that happens with regard to patents is that you merely get a statement setting out the date on which you make application and nothing else. There is no guarantee, no certificate with regard to search against anticipation and what has resulted from it.

The Minister casually says here that we have not yet got protection in America or Germany. He might have gone on to say that in the time since application was made in those two countries it was not in the normal way possible to get the patents. The Minister tells us that he feels he is going to have the patents secured in February. Surely in the month of November, in respect of a patent which the Minister feels will be given in February, he ought to be able to state that there is no valid objection raised against it. These are things that it is valuable to have and we ought to have them for discussion later. I am postponing any serious discussion on this matter because there will be a £4,000 Vote coming later on which a further debate will be possible.

I thought £4,000 more would be required——

There is adequate provision in this Estimate.

Does this cover some provision by way of indemnity to the Railway Company?

That was intended previously. It would appear the Minister is now taking away some of the money previously intended for certain purposes.

However, there will be another estimate on which the matter can be discussed, and perhaps it is better to leave the discussion over until then and until we have it clear and beyond the doubts of the most doubtful person that this invention is a success, that it can be patented and that it is a commercial property of great value. I may say I have not heard anything that has promised so well as this so sourly introduced or brought forward in such a defeatist spirit as this was by the Minister to-day. Surely at this time Ministers on that Bench over there should forget what they said previously about this battery. Personally, I am willing to forget it.

I should say so.

If the Minister for Finance is going to be facetious about this now it might be well for him to remember his childish statements on a previous occasion. His reputation will suffer; it has suffered already. One difficulty about this is that it is because we have a child in such matters dealing with such an important invention, and talking about it in such a childish fashion there is a danger that we might have a really decent property in this country somewhat damaged. It should be the duty of everybody in the country to see that we get full value out of this important invention.

The man who damaged it most is the man who used it for the purpose of a Stock Exchange ramp.

It is really impossible to deal with folly.

Precisely.

The only thing to do is to show it up occasionally in its most spectacular aspect and when it is revealed in a most spectacular way. The Minister for Finance never revealed his folly in such a spectacular way as when he made that historic statement of his in the Seanad when the President was afraid to turn him down although he recognised that the Minister had reached such a depth of folly that even the people who knew of his abilities in that direction did not believe him capable of, and that is saying quite an amount. It is rather regrettable that this thing should be treated in the way in which the Minister for Finance is treating it. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is somewhat cautious and at the same time he approaches this matter in a rather defeatist spirit. At any rate, that is a decent attitude in comparison with the spirit of levity in which his colleague, the Minister for Finance, treats the matter. In the Seanad the Minister for Finance was responsible for an idiotic phrase and obviously he is unrepentant still. He was discreet enough to stay outside while his colleague was moving the Vote. He came in when he thought it was all over.

I came in because I heard the Deputy was up.

The Minister might have been more discreet; he might have stayed away a little bit longer.

I always like to hear the Deputy.

If there is ever a chance possible for the Minister to display himself in a foolish way, he will take it. What are we to take as the Government attitude on this matter? Are we to accept the statement of the Minister for Industry and Commerce? Even though I do not think it is as sound an attitude as might be displayed, it is better than that taken up by his colleague. What is the Government's attitude? Are they still adopting the sneering attitude of the Minister for Finance in regard to this whole matter or are they taking it seriously? Will the Minister indicate who are the firms of international repute who are inquiring about the invention and how far has a report been prepared? I understood him to say that an interim report was being drafted. When is it likely that that report will be published? The sooner it is published the better. It will enable people to get a proper view of this battery and they will be in a position to see whether much reliance can be placed upon the particularly idiotic things stated by the Minister for Finance about its development. Perhaps the Minister for Industry and Commerce will tell us now whether he has any suspicion about these patents in the United States and Germany not being granted? Is the matter in a sufficiently advanced state for the Minister to be able to say whether there is or there is not a possibility of getting a patent in these countries? The people should know.

The statement I made in regard to this battery was moderate and restrained. It was deliberately so. The Deputy talked about the damage being done to this invention by childish nonsense. There was no one who talked more childish nonsense or more absurd bombast than the Deputy.

Then this debate is to be held over?

He came to the Dáil and he told the Dáil he had got an assignment of the patent. He had no such thing.

Will the Minister get me the quotation in that connection?

Certainly.

I want it now.

I have not got it now. He came and talked about the electrification of the main line to Cork. The money made available was for the purpose of investigation. The investigation was continued up to this year. The patent has not yet been secured. It has been secured in a number of countries but the essential patents in America, Britain and Germany have not yet been established. I have no reason to believe that the patents will not be secured. The report which was submitted to me by the board of the company indicates that they have no reason to believe that the patents will not be secured. Applications are proceeding in the normal course and unless some difficulty, not now apparent, should arise the patents will be established at some time in the near future. As to the value of the undertaking, that will be determined by the report of the firm, Messrs. Merz and McClellan, a well-known firm of consulting engineers with an international reputation. I do not say that that report alone should be the sole thing to be considered. Obviously upon that report the question of the future operations in relation to the undertaking will have to be determined.

To get back to the original point, my statement was restrained, and I think the restraint was justified in these circumstances, because the nonsense the Deputy talked produced a prejudice in the public mind which was bound to re-act against the possibility of getting the public to agree to the utilisation of State funds to a considerable extent for the development of this undertaking. It created a suspicion that electioneering stunts were closer to the heart of the Deputy than the desire to see this idea worked out and fully demonstrated. The position, as I have stated, is that the battery has been produced. The inventor and the company are prepared to stand upon it. The value of the invention will be determined by what report the expert firm pass upon it and we must make up our minds to what extent, and in what manner, State aid ought to be given to the proposition in future.

The Minister stated that the company said this was the last word on the battery development.

That is a phrase which was in my mind and which happened to be used in a conversation I had with representatives of the Board.

That is a lot better than previously.

Could the Minister state what amount of money has been allocated in this matter so far?

Up to the beginning of this year £30,300. A sum of £25,000 is being asked now. It is not anticipated that the whole of it will be spent this year. £8,000 has been spent and another £4,000 will continue operations up to the end of the year. There may be minor expenditure on experimental work which is in contemplation by the company. There is ample provision within the £25,000.

Therefore this Battery will have cost £42,000.

Plus the indemnity.

No, the indemnity is a contingent liability.

The money we have is only to meet foreseen charges. If the indemnity is to be met it will be so much extra.

Vote put and agreed to.

I must give notice that I will raise this question on the Appropriation Bill.

There is no doubt that the Deputy will talk again.

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