Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 18 Nov 1932

Vol. 44 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Supplementary Estimate. Vote No. 69—Relief Schemes.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £350,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun síntiúisí i gcóir fóirthinte ar dhíomhaointeas agus ar ghátar.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £350,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress.

In June last, £150,000 was voted by the Dáil for relief work, and in the Budget statement it was indicated that the total provision which the Dáil would be called upon to make in the current year for the relief of unemployment, through relief works undertaken on the Vote, was £500,000. The present Supplementary Vote is for £350,000 and is the balance of the sum then foreshadowed. The present Vote takes the form of a Supplementary to the original Vote and no distinction has been drawn between the types of work undertaken on the last Vote and those which will be provided for out of the present one. Apart from the administrative and accounting finance, which the merging of the two Votes will permit, it is not considered that the difference of the two classes of works are sufficient to justify a completely separate Vote. As a matter of fact the work undertaken on the first was mainly that which could be put in hands at once. On the other hand the schemes which will be financed out of the present Supplementary Estimate are those which naturally would require longer investigation and preparation.

The House will be interested to know how the moneys so far have been expended. The first Vote for £150,000 was allocated as follows: Office of Public Works, £40,650; Land Commission, £15,000; Agriculture, including Forestry, £10,000; Local Government and Public Health, £64,360; Industry and Commerce, £19,990. Of the £350,000 now asked £302,924 has been already either sanctioned or allotted or earmarked for works as follows:—Office of Public Works, £200; Local Government and Public Health, £133,449; Industry and Commerce, mineral exploration and development, £9,785; Minor Relief Works, £130,500; Department of Agriculture £27,000; Industry and Commerce for Relief Schemes to be carried out by the Port and Docks Board, £2,000. Some part of this allocation is at the moment provisional only, and the figures are not to be taken as definite and binding, but they do indicate the manner in which the relief grant is being administered through various Departments under the co-ordinating authority of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance.

With regard to the rate at which the money is being expended, at the present moment there is in course of being spent a sum of £150,000 which was voted in June last. We are not at the moment in a position to say exactly how much has been expended, but it is assumed that a large part of it has been already spent. We are not able to say exactly what our commitments are in that regard, because we are only asked to re-imburse local authorities from time to time for the amounts which have been expended on relief schemes, after they have been properly certified. In addition to the amount that the Dáil is now asked to vote, it has to be remembered that the Budget proposed that we should borrow £1,000,000 on the security of the Road Fund, to be available for the special road works in 1932-33. Of this amount £701,600 has been allocated to date, and £400,000 has been actually issued on foot of this expenditure by the Department of Finance. That leaves us—with the balance of the £150,000 voted in June, the £350,000 now asked for in the Supplementary Estimate and the £600,000 yet unexpended of the million loan on the security of the Road Fund — with approximately £1,000,000 to be spent on unemployment relief during the coming winter.

I would possibly be regarded as very optimistic if I were to say that that would be sufficient provision. Possibly it will not be, but whatever provision is required to enable us to fulfil the pledges which we gave when we were seeking election we shall ask the Dáil to make in due course. If any further additional provision must be made we assure the Dáil that machinery is being set up to supervise and control expenditure on relief schemes, so that whatever public moneys may be provided for the purpose will be spent wisely, and judiciously and reproductively. We believe that it is better if people have to be taxed, and if people cannot find employment, that instead of being maintained by the community they should be maintained in work rather than in idleness. The Government is straining every nerve, and the resources of the Departments are being taxed to the utmost, in order to ensure that the money will be wisely, judiciously and reproductively spent, and that, not merely shall the community reap a return for the money in happier homes and more contented citizens, but that it will reap the return also in an improvement of the national estate which, in years to come, will yield a profit upon the moneys now provided, and will so increase the general prosperity of the community that it will be realised, that in discharging a Christian duty to its people, the State has reaped its own reward.

Mr. Fionan Lynch

One would like to hope for all these glorious results of a Vote of this kind, which the Minister seems to expect, but I am afraid that he may not as a result hope that all this money will be wisely and reproductively spent. The experience has been, although a Vote of this kind has to be brought in in bad times, that normally you do not get anything like the value for the money spent, no matter what precautions are taken. You can take some precautions. You can make sure that the works undertaken will be at least of some permanent value and works where you will have left behind some asset for the future. But there is a feeling abroad as a general rule amongst those employed in these works that they need not give a full hard day's work for a day's pay. I am very much afraid that that is the experience. When going into that, I am afraid that I did not catch the first figure which the Minister mentioned. Was it £200,000? That is, in the Office of Public Works?

Mr. MacEntee

No, £200. That is out of the £350,000; but out of the previous £150,000 there was £40,650.

Mr. Fionan Lynch

Apparently, most of this Vote is being drawn by the Local Government Department or under the heading of Minor Relief. I have no fault to find with the allocation as between the Departments, or as it may be spread among the different Departments, but I should like to have seen some allocation to the Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services end of the Department of Lands and Fisheries. Normally, in the past, the Land Commission administered most of these relief works in the way of making bog roads, drainage and other such undertakings. There is a new departure now, however. The Board of Works was given the administration of the Vote in general and, apparently, they are going to have the administration of a big portion of this Vote. We have got no information as to which Department will administer the £130,500 under the heading of Minor Relief. There are many schemes which are held up for want of finance in the Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services branch of the Department of Lands and Fisheries. Any money which has been allocated to that Department out of the former relief works was utilised, I believe, in consonance with what the Minister hopes for from the present Vote. There have been works of permanent importance created as the result of the allocation to that Department before, especially in the kelp gathering areas. Passages were made into the sea to enable the kelp gatherers to carry the kelp in carts where previously they had to bring out the weed in baskets. Roads were made or improved for the transport of the kelp and so on.

I do not like to set a bad example by drifting this debate into the parochial sphere and getting every Deputy to stand up and advocate the claims of his own constituency. There is always a tendency in a Vote of this kind for such a thing to happen and it is very hard to avoid it. I am afraid, however, that I must put forward the claims of Kerry on this occasion, because of the particular circumstances prevailing at the present time. I venture to say that there is no county in the Free State which has been so severely hit by what we call the economic war as the County Kerry. The reason for that is that the whole economy of the county is, and always has been, dependent on the margin of profit that the people can get from their sale of stock and butter and eggs. The land is, generally speaking, very poor, and, in order to fit their cattle for the market, they have to go in largely for the purchase of feeding stuffs. The prices of feeding stuffs have largely gone up and the prices of the cattle and eggs and butter have collapsed. It is not a county where there were ever any great reserves. Under the circumstances of the case and of their position they were never able to do very much more than carry on, in spite of the fact that they are hardworking and enterprising, as is evidenced by the fact that they purchase largely feeding stuffs and artificial manures. In spite of that they have never been able to put by anything, as it were, for the rainy day. Schemes which would benefit counties in the Midlands will pass Kerry by, and I might say the same thing, indeed, for nearly all of the Western seaboard. The same thing prevailed in many of the schemes brought in by the former Government. Many of the schemes promoted for the benefit of agriculture or of the country as a whole, brought in by the last Government, had no effect on or were of no advantage whatever to Kerry or to the western portion of Galway, West Clare, Mayo, Donegal or Waterford. For instance, the beet scheme was absolutely of no advantage to them. The present wheat scheme may be of advantage to the wheat growing areas, but except for a negligible portion of Kerry, it is of no advantage. On the contrary, it might be said that it may prove to be a disadvantage to them because the people of Kerry, along with the rest of the people, will have to provide the subsidy by which the farmers in these other areas will benefit. The same thing applied to the subsidy for beet.

Mr. Moore

Does that apply to North Kerry?

Mr. Lynch

It might be of advantage there, but certainly it is of no advantage for the vast majority of the Gaeltacht portion. This is a special reason for giving a larger allocation of this Relief Vote to Kerry than would be given otherwise. That is, on whatever general principle the money will be allocated, whether it is according to the number of unemployed in an area, or on whatever other basis the money will be distributed, there is a case for a larger allocation to Kerry than might be given to it on the general basis, because of these special circumstances which I have mentioned.

One of the chief reasons why I intervened in the debate, and especially why I was tempted to put forward the claims of Kerry, was because of a letter I received yesterday in connection with one little industry in the county. I refer to the mussel industry in Cromane, Co. Kerry. This letter, which I received yesterday, informed me that a consignment of mussels from Cromane was held up at Holyhead pending the payment of duty—that is, a new duty imposed as a result of the tariff war. The mussel fishermen at Cromane are a little community in themselves. They ship the mussels to England, and an agent acting for them there sells the mussels, collects the cash, and deducts the commission and freightage. These men are absolutely unable to pay that tariff. The mussels are being held up at Holyhead, and I believe that there is a strong case for the Government coming to their assistance, whether on this Vote or in some other way. The Minister for Finance may laugh.

Mr. MacEntee

I am just laughing at the Deputy's adroitness in bringing this in.

Mr. Lynch

I think it is perfectly obvious that there is here a case for relief in some form or another. Whether it is to come out of this Vote or no, is a matter for the Government. It certainly provides an occasion for me to raise it. This is one of the cases in which I agree that a bounty would be helpful. It is an obvious case for a bounty. The fishermen themselves are the exporters, and the bounty would go to the right people. It would not be a very large amount. All that is required is sufficient to pay the amount of the tariff imposed at Holyhead on each bag of mussels. The tariff has been imposed as a result of Government policy. The industry is threatened with destruction, and I think it is up to the Government to come to the help of these unfortunate people.

Whatever little money they make out of the mussels they earn very hard. I understand the general price got in the market is 7/- per bag. Freightage, I think, costs 3/4 and with the commission there is very little left for the men who collect the mussels. When you add something like 2/- per bag for the tariff the fishermen are left with about 1/- per bag for their labour, and the bag is not returned either. I put it to the Government that they are responsible for bringing these unfortunate people into this plight, and it is up to them to come to their assistance. The best way in which that assistance can be rendered is by paying that tariff for them. There is no use in giving money in order to employ these men on the construction of roads. These men are fishermen, although they may be small farmers as well. What would happen if that were done would be that they would be put into competition with unemployed persons who cannot turn to the sea for a living. These men do not want that. They want to be allowed to carry on the little industry they have always carried out. It is up to the Government to see that this tariff, imposed on them through no fault of their own, and which threatens to kill their industry, should be met by the Government.

Mr. Gorey

The Minister has given a resume of how the last Vote was spent. I should like to know the opinion of the Department responsible as to how the money was spent in Carlow and Kilkenny, particularly in Kilkenny. I do not know the exact amount allocated to Kilkenny, whether it was £400 or £600, but I know the job that was made of it. It was very fortunate that the houses on each side of Rose Inn Street, which is a narrow street, did not cave in. The whole work, to all intents and purposes, was taken out of the hands of the County Surveyor and the officials of the County Council and, to an extent, of the Corporation. Some of the officials of the Corporation in charge of the work were discharged on the application of a Soviet or mob, whatever you like to call them, who did their own supervising and would not allow anyone else to supervise, and the local authority agreed. I want to know what the Department responsible did in connection with that. It was going on for five or six weeks, I think, during which there were two or three strikes and that gave the Department time to exercise any authority they had. I do not know if they gave way to the Corporation and have no further control. I imagine that is impossible, and that they are still in a position to exercise control. Anyhow, nothing was done.

As far as I can see, the whole money was expended without supervision, except the supervision these people supplied themselves. It was a public scandal of the worst description. Not alone was the job itself a waste of money, but I doubt if the material used is of any use, as it was filled in by these people with water and mud. On Tuesday last as I came through Kilkenny I saw some of it being replaced by other material, under the supervision I think of the County Surveyor. I want to know what action the Department took in connection with that scandal. It has been stated by the Minister for Finance that this money has been wisely, judiciously and reproductively spent. I think the money in that particular case was not wisely, judiciously or reproductively spent. In any other country, such a thing would be regarded as a reproach to any public authority, and certainly be regarded as a reproach to the Department concerned. How the Department stood by and allowed what happened in Kilkenny to take place is a mystery to me and to any man who has respect for public authorities. The public authority in Kilkenny went to pieces. A considerable number of the representatives resigned as a protest. Others of them were powerless. The few who remained wanted to do things as they should be done. We are not in a position to know what the Local Government Department did in the interests of public decency—I put it that way.

I should like to know what period is contemplated for the spending of this additional grant, to which, I may say, I have no objection. In the words of the Minister for Finance, I want to see it judiciously, wisely and reproductively spent. As the Local Government Department knows, and as the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the Public Works Department knows, we in Kilkenny have been urging for the last five or six years that a scheme should be undertaken to deal with the flooding of the Nore at Thomastown, Kilkenny and Dunmore. If the period during which this money is to be spent could be extended into the Summer of next year, then I think a considerable portion of this grant should be reserved to deal with that flooding, and if that cannot be done the money should be provided out of some future grant.

No body of private individuals can deal with the silt deposited by the River Dinan at the mouth of the River Nore. No body of individuals, nothing short of State provision, could do it. A huge amount of silt—it is altogether gravel—comes down in this mountain torrent on the Dinan. That can never properly be handled by individuals living along the banks. It is more in the nature of a visitation of Providence than anything else. The small holders who have come to live there since the estates passed away from the hands of the landlords are unable to cope with the situation. There was not much done even in the time of the landlords, who had large areas of territory under their control. Nothing is being done now. I am aware that the bed of the river has changed to the extent of three or four hundred yards in places.

This is going to cost money, more money than the local authorities can put up, especially in their present plight. If some of this relief grant were utilised in conjunction with the grant proposed to be expended by the Board of Works, there is a possibility that the situation there could be remedied and quite a lot of employment would be given. In that manner the whole problem could be dealt with through the local authority. There is no use in dealing with this matter unless some provision is made for the removal of the silt at different points. This silt is of considerable value. It is gravel pure and simple, and it would be very useful if it were utilised on the minor roads. The sand and gravel washed down from the mountain could readily be sold. The whole scheme would pay for itself. All that is needed is capital to initiate the scheme, which then can be worked effectively without any cost to the State because the material is valuable enough to pay its own way. The material would more than pay for its removal to the roadway or to some convenient place where it would be accessible to carters.

I think money in this instance would be wisely, judiciously and reproductively spent. I would like to emphasise the desirability of giving due attention to this matter. I have been asked to form one of a deputation to the Government in connection with it. I think the Minister should examine the proposition carefully in order to see what can be done. I suggest that some of this relief grant should be utilised in conjunction with the Board of Works' grant already suggested in order to meet the situation that exists in Kilkenny. It is an undertaking that could not be left to individuals, that is scarcely the work of the county council and that is obviously a State job.

Mr. Moore

I agree entirely with Deputy Lynch that this discussion should not be a parochial one in so far as it is possible to arrange that. It is undesirable for a Deputy to concentrate on his own constituency, and if I have to do so it will only be in order to illustrate a matter of principle. In my experience the money spent on these relief schemes up to the present has been very admirably spent. I observe, however, one curious anomaly in connection with the grants given by the Local Government Department. Perhaps the Ministry may be able to throw some light on the matter.

A grant has been given for the re-making of a street in Arklow. In that area there are probably the best quarries in the world for road material, but yet the street is to be made of concrete. Is it the view of the Local Government Department that concrete is so manifestly superior as a road material that the obvious advantage of using excellent local material and thereby getting real value for the money to be spent in relieving unemployment is not to be availed of? It would seem to me a reasonable thing, even if it is admitted that concrete is superior to tar macadam, that the Government ought to say: "We will have to do with tar macadam for the present, because we must get the fullest possible value for our money. Here is a town where, immediately this grant is spent, there will be a demand for further relief money, and it is up to us, therefore, to extend this work as much as possible so that it will give all the relief that it is possible to get."

Many people have been asking why it is that in a place where the best road material in the world is to be got the Government decide to make a concrete road. How far is the Department of Local Government responsible for that decision? It looks like bringing coals to Newcastle to bring road material to Arklow. Of course, when cement is being produced here, the position will be different. At the moment I am raising this purely as a matter of principle with the object of finding out how it is that the Department can come to such a decision.

In connection with the general problem, it seems to me that soon the principal roads of the country will be sufficiently done and there will be far less room for new road work than heretofore. There will be more difficulty in getting suitable work for the expenditure of unemployment relief grants. I think that even at the moment it has been found that it is not an easy task to get schemes which promise to be immediately productive. I suggest if there is going to be any plan for the continuous relief of unemployment the advisability of developing the mines in the country might be considered. We know there are minerals in the country and we are told the reason they are not being worked is that it would not be economic to work them. We are told that with copper at £40 a ton it would be quite impossible to expect any company to start mining in this country for copper—that it would not be a paying proposition.

Mr. Minch

£32 a ton.

Mr. Moore

That may be correct, but what would it be if some of the money devoted to relief work at the moment were utilised for the purpose of developing mineral production? If some of the money being spent on works of doubtful value were diverted to the development of our mineral resources, would not that tend to make certain mining ventures an economic possibility? Without some consideration of that kind it is possible we will have to wait a very long time for anything like mineral development. It seems to be the case that most of our minerals are not found in sufficient quantities to make it likely that exploitation will be attempted under present conditions. I suggest to the Minister that it would be a very valuable experiment to subsidise a mining company out of the unemployment relief fund. At least you would gain considerable experience and you would possibly do more sincere work than has been done by some of the mining companies that already have attempted exploitation. It would be a very valuable thing in counties where at the moment there does not seem a chance of formulating an economic scheme and where unemployment is prevalent. I suggest that mining might well be considered and examined in detail in order to ascertain whether it would not be a very good outlet for the expenditure of the money that unfortunately it seems will be necessary for the relief of distress for a considerable time ahead.

Mr. Brasier

As time goes on, it must become apparent to the Government that it will be more difficult to discover means of relieving unemployment by relief schemes of a productive nature. I should like to direct the attention of the Minister to the question of minor drainage schemes. Those will, in many cases, relieve flooding on roads and, at the same time, turn the most valuable portion of the land, now waterlogged, into a productive asset. Deputy Gorey has alluded to the serious condition of a river in his area owing to silting at the mouth. I am happy to say that we have been able to obviate a somewhat similar position of affairs in a drainage scheme now proceeding by the construction of a catchment area further up the river. Arrangements have been made by the County Surveyor to maintain that and at the same time make use of the gravel for steam-rolling. That will be a valuable asset to the County Council and, possibly, Deputy Gorey will be able to make use of the hint in his own area. One of the reasons that I welcome the provision of this additional sum for relief of unemployment is that County Councils in many cases have been obliged to spread the allocations made by the Minister over a very long period—up to the end of March. That means that you can only touch the fringe of the unemployment question. I should like to ask the Minister if it is his intention to add to these sums, so that a continuous form of employment can be provided on these roads. It must be perfectly obvious that inefficient work will be done when the work is attacked piecemeal, month by month, instead of having the work carried out continuously. Sporadic attacks upon this work will not make for efficiency and it has caused a good deal of unrest amongst the unemployed. I have a letter from the unemployed of Doneraile in which they draw attention to the very serious state of affairs there owing to the fact that it is only possible to employ very few men on the work being carried on in that area. Now that Christmas is coming, I hope that an effort will be made to give work to all those men.

I have a good deal of sympathy with the remarks made by Deputy Lynch in connection with the Gaeltacht services. I can bear witness as to the sufferings entailed by people in the Gaeltacht who have only a very modest way of living and whose livelihood has been seriously imperilled by the position in which we are placed by the economic war. I think that the question of employment through the employment exchanges has not been adequately dealt with. Very often deserving cases are left out and, perhaps, through lack of knowledge on the part of the officer at the exchange, less deserving cases are given employment. I feel that attention should be directed to the more efficient management of the exchanges. Everyone welcomes the provision made for the various items mentioned here. I must express my appreciation of, and gratitude for, the allocation made to the Cloyne silica mines. That should be the means of providing an additional source of wealth in that area. There is in this country a vast, undeveloped volume of potential wealth. Small grants, such as are given by the Minister, may enable us to discover sources of wealth hitherto undreamed of. These valuable clay deposits, if properly developed, will, I am sure, add a very considerable source of wealth to the country. If we can attract sufficient capital to work them, they will, undoubtedly, add materially to the wealth of the district in which they are situate.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to one item: there was originally an intention to construct a road along the seaboard. That would materially help the tourist traffic. I hope that, in the future, when better feelings prevail between countries, tourists will be attracted in very large numbers here. The construction of such a road would, undoubtedly, add to the attractiveness of this country. The removal of dangerous corners should also be attended to. These are schemes on which money for the relief of unemployment could be profitably expended.

Mr. Curran

I welcome this grant. I am sorry that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health has gone out. I see that there is a grant of £2,000 for ports and docks. When the Budget was introduced here, I raised the question of the Loughshinny Harbour. That is a very important question. The harbour is situated in the constituency of the Minister for Finance, and I hope that it will receive some consideration. Since the Budget was introduced, the matter has come before the Dublin County Council. The question is now between the County Council and the Minister for Local Government. Because of red tape, nothing can be done. I can get nothing in writing. I am told different things but nothing in writing comes before the Dublin County Council. The engineer estimated the cost at £10,000. That will have to be got through rates.

I pointed out in my statement on the Budget that the harbour was maintained by the ratepayers of County Dublin. They have to pay for any little improvement made. I pointed out also that a family was wiped out over twelve months ago. This is a little fishing place and each family has a boat of its own. Within the past year, they got six new boats from the Fishery Department. These are run by the families. In trying to get into the harbour in bad weather, the boat is sometimes lost. When a boat is lost, five or six of a family are wiped out of existence.

I do not think it is fair when there is money voted for relief that this most important work should be over-looked. This work in Loughshinny could be done out of the relief money with the assistance of a small percentage of the ratepayers' money. If the sum of £10,000 were put up it would put the harbour into a safe and proper state for fishermen at all times. I ask the Minister for Finance to take this question into consideration.

The other matter about which I want to speak is in connection with certain roads in Clondalkin, Finglas and Lusk in the County Dublin. In the County Dublin, there are £70,000 or £80,000 paid in rates and still the County Dublin farmers are not able to use these roads to which I refer. The county council is debarred from putting a stone on these roads. It is pretty hard to realise that, when the rates are collected every year from these farmers. I should say that over £2,000 is collected annually from the farmers in the Clondalkin area, who have no roads into their farms. The farmers cannot get any assistance to have these roads repaired. This is happening when the rest of the roads of the country are being turned into skating rinks for the benefit of people from all parts who fly through them without much regard for human life. It is surely strange that nothing can be done for the farmers who have to make their living there and who have to contribute to the rates.

The trouble seems to me to be due largely to red tape. The county councils are told that if they spend the money they will be surcharged. They are not allowed to spend the money. We put up over three years ago a sum of £100 for Clondalkin and a similar sum for both Finglas and Lusk. We did the same last year and the year before. The county surveyor said: "I will not spend the money," though we were prepared ourselves to take the responsibility for doing so. When the case was put up to the Local Government officials they would give us nothing in writing. We wanted a decision "yes" or "no" as to whether they would sanction it, but they would not put anything in writing. I hope the Minister for Finance will see the Minister for Local Government on this important matter. These roads are commonly called cul de sacs, but our own roads around Clondalkin, where £2,000 is collected every year in rates from the farmers, should have something done to them.

At any rate, the county council has made representations both with regard to Loughshinny and these roads, and we would like to have a definite answer from them and not a reply through the county surveyor by word of mouth. They have refused us sanction for the spending of the money. We want to know now definitely what action the Local Government Department is going to take.

Mr. Minch

There was one part of the speech of the Minister for Finance in introducing this Vote on which I fastened and on which the House will fasten. It is in reference to the machinery which I presume it is the intention to have co-ordinating and co-operating with the different Departments concerned where there is at present over-lapping. That indeed is a most laudable idea, and one that will undoubtedly get support from every Deputy in the House. That machinery will, undoubtedly, go a long way to conduct through the various channels any of the money that is applied for, and such machinery would secure that money is expended in the best possible manner.

I am sure the Minister will enlighten us further as to the details. I would like to know will this machinery be an independent body or would it just be composed or made up at day to day meetings of heads of departments, at times that would be suitable for them to meet? Will there be any direct intercourse through the councils or will the usual departmental procedure be conducted to get at them? If that were abolished and if they had direct contact with the counties, it would be a great assistance. It would enable the money voted to be used quickly, and the whole work would be expedited under proper supervision, so that the money would be properly and usefully spent. The Minister referred to the fact that the spending of these grants would be done in such a way as to enhance the national credit, that it would in the long run help the national credit. I would like if the Minister for Finance would enlarge on that and give us more explanation of what it means, because the idea seems to me to be a laudable one and one that should receive the support and help of this House.

It is not my intention to go into this Vote from a local point of view except to say that there is great dissatisfaction with the administration of employment relief in the country. I cannot make any suggestion myself as to how that can be overcome, but I do suggest that if this independent body is set up it should be a sort of Ministry of Labour, and there would be direct representation between that and the counties. There should be on it representatives of the counties whose money is spent, so that their business would be all the better looked after. This would save the local body a great deal of trouble and worry, for, with their staff, it would cut out work which their staff is not able at present to cope with. These are a few of the points which I wish to convey to the Minister, and I would crave his consideration and attention for them. I do not want to delay the House any further, as if this problem were discussed at length it would not help the situation very much.

Mr. Goulding

It is very hard to follow Deputy Lynch in his appeal, for the Deputy after leading off with that appeal then turned his remarks entirely to the County Kerry. Those of us who speak on this matter have our local circumstances in view. Much as I would wish to make this a broad issue, I suppose, like the rest of the speakers, I will be compelled to make it parochial. With reference to the expenditure on the by-roads, I think there is a reluctance on the part of the county boards of health to embark on schemes of this kind. Take the County Waterford, which has the greatest mileage of roads in proportion to its valuation of any county in the country, and the position is that the Waterford County Council are very reluctant to vary or extend the mileage. They fear that if these roads were put into repair the people interested will endeavour to get them on to the county council register of roads and so add to the mileage.

If I might make a suggestion it would be that any expenditure incurred on these roads will be of such a nature that it will not be necessary to have them re-stocked for years to come. Roads of this nature are used by comparatively few people, but these people are ratepayers and they are entitled that these roads passing by their houses should be put into repair and kept in repair. The present position is that everybody's business is nobody's business. Once a road of this kind is repaired very little will be needed to keep it in repair. If the road were once put into a fairly decent state of repair it would be easy for the farmers themselves to keep it so. If the county council could get power to expend a very small sum occasionally in keeping water off the road there would be no necessity to keep stock on it for years to come. I endeavoured to get something like this done by the Waterford County Council but I failed. The result is that the money spent on the roads previously was wasted.

I am afraid some of the county boards of health are not very keen on taking up these schemes. Some of the county boards of health are not very favourable to the present administration and are not at all keen to execute or expedite some of the schemes put forward. If such is the case, I would ask the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to see that pressure should be brought to bear on these bodies and thus that they might be got to execute the works.

A considerable amount of the grant has been spent on our main roads. This matter has been raised before and I do not want to go over the same ground, but I think it would be a good idea if we people in Ireland again went back to the burning of lime. We have used a tremendous quantity of limestone in the past few years—putting it on the roads and covering it with foreign tar. I know mountain areas in my district where lime is a very valuable manure. In the old days they could get lime at a cheap rate and it was used extensively. For years past the people are giving up the use of lime. If they want it they have to go miles away, and pay a very heavy price for it, while practically at their doors is one of the finest limestone districts in the country. I remember myself seeing many lime kilns working there and those lime kilns are still in existence. Of course I can understand that it would be a difficult matter for a Government Department to take over the burning of lime. The limestone quarries are private property. The lime kilns that already exist are private property, but if it were possible—I do not like subsidies—to make it an economic matter for those owners of lime kilns to again produce lime that lime would be readily bought. It would go into the land that needs it badly, and I think it would be one of the best ways of spending this money we have to spend.

Now there is another aspect of the matter. The quarrying of the stone used in the making of lime is entirely hand work, and in this work it would not be necessary to use any machinery whatever, so that practically every penny of the money spent on the work we want to do would go to the relief of unemployment. One of the greatest complaints we have met with during the past few months has been the fact that a lot of the money we gave for the relief of unemployment has gone across to England for tar and for machinery. The men employed on the roads have told me that a considerable portion of the money that they were supposed to get to relieve them has gone in this way. I am inclined to agree with that. If we give money to the relief of unemployment we should endeavour to see that every penny of that money goes to the unemployed. In the production of lime I think practically every penny of the money spent would go into the hands of the unemployed. If we want to reclaim mountain land in this country and make valuable arable land of it we will have to go back to lime. I would suggest that we make a start now, and give an opportunity to those who own kilns to put those kilns working. The effect will be immediate—this lime will go into the land for the coming Spring, and will help the farmers in mountain areas, who find it very difficult to buy artificial manures, in producing their crops.

In many parts of this country the embankments are in a very bad way. Breaches are occurring here and there, and if they are allowed to go on it will necessitate considerable expenditure later on. The Land Commission is supposed to do this work, but the Land Commission is unable to cope with it. It would be a good idea if some of the money we are spending could be devoted to this purpose. The small breaches which now exist could be repaired at small cost, and if they are allowed to develop it will entail the expenditure of vastly more money later on. In this case we should adopt the old principle of the stitch in time.

With reference to forestry, I think more attention should be paid to it. Now I do not want to make this a parochial matter at all. I think in any forestry schemes more attention should be paid to the scenic point of view. Some of the finest districts in this country, from the scenic point of view, have been destroyed by the compulsory cutting of timber in places that would be a valuable asset from the tourist point of view. Those places could be rendered again that valuable asset by judicious planting. I think a lot of the planting that has been done has been done in remote mountain areas. I do not object to it, of course, because those areas will quickly be improved in that way, but I think two purposes could be served—the purpose of utility and the purpose of beauty—if more attention were paid to the scenic point of view in forestry schemes.

Now I go on to the principle of helping those who wish to help themselves, and this is purely a parochial matter. The Waterford Harbour Committee have offered to put up £500 if they get £1,000 grant. I think they should get it. One of the best principles in helping people is to help those who help themselves. Any man who comes forward with a scheme which he is prepared to back with his own money should get all the help possible in carrying it out.

Mr. Anthony

This is a Vote which we can all approach without having regard to party or political affiliations. In this Vote for Relief Schemes I have always had a certain amount of sympathy with the Minister concerned, because I felt, if each Deputy got all he asked for, that instead of the £350,000 proposed to be given under this Relief Grant we would want nearly as many millions. It affords a great opportunity for the Deputy who wants a tower at Ballinamuck, or a road built through some impossible place, or a pier built in O'Connell Street, and all those kinds of fancy projects are put up at a time like this. I do not propose to do anything like that, but I want to ask the Minister some questions with regard to the administration of this money when provided by the Dáil. I want to know will the sum allocated to each area bear a ratio to the number of persons unemployed in that area. I want to know something more about the machinery to be established, and the methods through which this money will be distributed.

As I said, we can approach this matter free from any party or political affiliations, and I do hope the Minister will not translate into party or politics what I propose to say now. The Minister must be aware that as a result of recent happenings—I will not say fiscal policy, as I do not want to suggest it is all through tariffs—there has been a considerable disturbance in the trade and industry of our country, as a result of present circumstances, to put it that way, for fear it would be thought I was making political capital out of the unfortunate misery of our people. I would suggest that in any allocation that may take place inquiries, and very careful inquiries should be made through the medium or agency of the employment exchanges, as to the number of persons affected by those recent fiscal changes in our policy. I am personally aware that there are thousands of dockers unemployed in our country. In Cork City alone I know there are many thousands of dockers, navvies and other workers of that kind unemployed, as I say, due to the recent changes in our fiscal system. Now, sir, I would suggest to the Minister that he should have regard to that particular type of unemployed person—the person who has been badly hit as a result of recent events. Deputy Goulding, who usually makes a very sensible contribution to debates of this kind, has made a most practical suggestion, in my view, with regard to the development of lime kilns in this country.

The Minister should endeavour to translate into action, of course I recognise his difficulty, the suggestions put up by Deputy Goulding, and where there is a will there is a way. If it could be found possible to translate into practical economics the suggestion put by Deputy Goulding with regard to the development of our lime kilns, it would give direct labour to many of our unemployed. The vast sums which are spent on relief grants, and spent on machinery and other things of that character not made in this country, are altogether out of proportion to the amount of labour given. In the development of lime kilns we would have little or no machinery requisite, and if there was anything in the nature of tools and machinery required they are already in the country and available.

Due regard should also be paid to the resources of the different local authorities. I could become quite parochial on this matter and tell you that the Cork County Council has done a whole lot to help the unemployed, but I am approaching this in a national way, and it is for that reason I back the suggestion made by Deputy Goulding in asking the Minister to see could he translate that suggestion into action. I do not at all agree or approve of the strictures passed on the officials of the employment exchanges by Deputy Brasier a few moments ago. My experience in Cork City, at any rate, goes to show that the employment exchange there is worked efficiently and with a good deal of sympathetic consideration for those people who are unfortunate enough to sign on in the exchange from day to day. I do feel the Minister will have a difficulty, but not an insurmountable difficulty, in administering this fund to satisfy everyone, because no matter what machinery, whether through the agency of the employment exchange or any other agency, the Minister sets up, there will always be a number of persons disappointed. We are all aware that if there is one job and one hundred persons apply for it, one man gets it and there are ninety-nine disappointed. Consequently, I would not like to make any capital, political or otherwise, out of any grumblings or grousings that may arise out of the administration of this money.

I want, at the same time, to draw the Minister's attention to one way in which this money might be successfully administered in a reproductive manner. He must know that in many places there is urgent need and necessity for sewerage works. I have in mind at the moment the fact that the Cork County Council offered to go fifty-fifty with the Government in a sewerage scheme for Blarney, in the County Cork. A very famous medical man, Dr. Connolly, the County Medical Officer of Health, reported on the insanitary conditions in the village. Dr. Connolly and the engineer made an estimate, and the Cork County Council agreed to go fifty-fifty in the cost. But what occurred? Immediately the county council and the Local Government Department agreed, along comes another engineer and reports it would require £1,200 extra. That was not his only objection. He also objected because the carrying out of the scheme would mean that the view from Blarney Castle would be destroyed.

There is a lot of potential ground in the vicinity of Dublin, lots of potential building ground in the vicinity of Cork, and in the vicinity of every city and town in the Free State, and here we would have reproductive work in the laying down of sewerage. Anybody who knows anything about the development of cities and towns must know that one of the biggest attractions you can offer to speculative builders is to let them know that the sewerage is already laid. If the State embarked on schemes of that character they would be acting prudently and well. I suggest for the Minister's consideration these two items alone—the item referred to by Deputy Goulding, for the development of our lime quarries, and the question of sewerage. We debated at very considerable length here some weeks ago the question of reafforestation. I do not want to go into that, but I do know that in these two items alone it would give good, useful and reproductive employment, which would be an asset to the State.

Mr. Roddy

A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, I notice in the allocation of this money that no part or no portion has been given to the Land Commission. Now, I cannot understand why the Land Commission has not been selected as one of the Departments of Government responsible for the expenditure of some portion of this money. After all, it is really the one Department of Government that has most experience in the expenditure of relief grants; it is the one Department of Government that has more schemes than any other on which relief money especially could be very profitably spent. There is also another reason why portion of this money should be given to the Land Commission. Quite a number of estates in this country, in fact the majority of the estates in this country, were bought out under the Land Acts prior to 1923. The majority of these sales were direct sales between landlord and tenant, and no money whatever was spent on the improvement of these estates. I know from my own experience, and I was four years in the Land Commission, that there are schemes pigeon-holed in that Department, schemes which had been properly surveyed and properly reported on for the purpose of carrying out certain improvements on these estates. It has always been the policy of that Department to spend, each year during which relief grants were allocated, a certain portion of that money for the improvement of these estates. I think every Deputy in this House knows perfectly well that it is necessary that improvements of one kind or another, either in the shape of bog roads or drainage schemes, should be made on these particular estates, in order to make them more valuable to the tenants. On a previous relief estimate it was stated by the Minister for Finance that the Land Commission were so busy on other work that they could not very well undertake schemes of this kind. I do not know what particular work the Land Commission is doing at the moment. They have not distributed any land during the last seven or eight months.

It was admitted by Fianna Fáil Deputies that that money was well spent. It was fairly spent and there was no political prejudice whatsoever shown in the expenditure of it. I suggest that portion of the money should be given to the Land Commission for the reason that a big proportion of the money can be wasted unless it is spent on carefully thought-out, carefully prepared schemes, and unless these schemes are subsequently supervised and administered very carefully. There was a very long debate in the Dáil some years ago on the administration of a certain relief grant by the Land Commission and by the Department of Local Government. I think it was in the year 1925-26. It was demonstrated and admitted then that a certain amount of that money was wasted. It was wasted simply because the money had to be spent in a very short period, a period of from two to three months. It was not possible for either of the Departments to prepare schemes in the way they should have been prepared, and it was not possible to supervise them in a sufficiently careful manner. They had to take officials from the various Government Departments, who had no experience of such work, and put them in control. Because these schemes were not carefully thought-out and because, subsequently, they were not carefully administered, a certain amount of the money was squandered and wasted. In the Land Commission now, as the result of six or seven years' experience of administration of relief schemes, you have a very competent and experienced staff. You have a staff who have been trained specially in the administration of such schemes, and I am satisfied that if a substantial portion of the money were placed under the control of the Land Commission, the work would be carried out satisfactorily and no money would be wasted in the administration of these schemes.

It appears from figures which the Minister read out that the greater portion of the money is to be administered by the Board of Works. I wonder what experience the Board of Works has in the administration of relief schemes? I understood that the Board of Works was merely concerned with drainage works of one kind or another. What experience has the Board of Works of the expenditure of money on road works? Is the work to be done or supervised by the county surveyor, and is the county surveyor to be as a matter of fact responsible entirely to the Board of Works? Is he to have no responsibility to the county council? Is the county surveyor to spend this money on schemes submitted to him by the Board of Works and schemes approved only by the Board of Works? May I ask from what particular Department of Government the Board of Works will get information about particular schemes which they will sanction for the expenditure of money? It seems to me that administratively it is a very bad arrangement. It is an unsound arrangement. It is an arrangement which, in my opinion at all events, will lead to a waste of money, and I am afraid, in some cases, will mean that very bad work will be done.

Deputy Goulding referred to one matter in which I happen to be interested, namely, the availability of a supply of lime for farmers in the country. I agree with the Deputy that portion of the money could very well be spent in assisting the production of lime and in making lime available for farmers for manurial purposes. There is no question that land in many parts of the country needs lime very badly, but for various reasons a supply of lime has not been made available in any adequate quantities for a great many years past. The Land Commission did carry out an experiment some years ago in a certain part of the country in that particular direction. They opened five or six lime kilns—I forget the actual number. It transpired that there was a certain amount of money lost in the enterprise but, even so, the experiment was worth while. It seems to me that it would not be possible in future to get an adequate supply of lime unless the State is prepared to spend a certain amount of money to make the lime available for farmers who require it. As I say, a sufficient amount of lime is not available for manurial purposes at present.

Deputy Goulding also referred to the question of the repair of embankments. I agree that portion of the money should be made available for the carrying out of these repairs and improvements, but this is not the season of the year for carrying on work of that kind. It is likely, however, that this is only one of various grants which will be made available and I suggest that, when the weather is suitable, the Deputy might make a suggestion to his Minister that a certain amount of money under these grants should be devoted to this purpose.

There are two other matters to which I would like to refer in conclusion. There is, firstly, the matter of the provision of waterworks and sewerage schemes. I do not think the money could be better spent than on sewerage and waterworks schemes, in the small towns especially. The sewerage and waterworks schemes in many of our small towns are really a positive source of danger. I think that even the Parliamentary Secretary, when he was in opposition, in a debate on one relief vote, emphasised the necessity of the then Government making money available for the purpose of assisting local authorities in carrying out waterworks and sewerage schemes. I know there are certain towns in my own constituency where the sewerage and waterworks schemes are so primitive that they are really a danger to the public health. I think the Government could not spend money in a better way than by allocating a portion, and a very substantial portion, of this amount to waterworks and sewerage schemes in our local towns.

The only other point to which I wish to refer is the fact that on account of the fiscal and other changes carried out by the Government since they entered on the responsibilities of office, the seaport towns especially have suffered considerably. The principal town in my constituency, Sligo, being a seaport town, relying mainly on its seaport trade, has suffered very considerably with the result that there is a great deal of unemployment there at the present time. There are, I understand, between 1,600 and 1,700 people unemployed. During the time the late Government was in office, when the port trade was normal, dockers in Sligo were earning from £3 to £4 per week. Now they are earning anything from 5/- to 15/-, in some cases perhaps a little more. The fact is that Sligo port has suffered considerably on account of the recent fiscal changes introduced by the Government with a consequent increase in unemployment. I would suggest to the Minister that special consideration should be given to seaport towns like the town of Sligo which have suffered considerably in consequence of the fiscal changes introduced by the Government and that special provisions should be made for them out of this relief grant.

Mr. T.J. O'Reilly

Deputy Lynch, in his speech, stated that the Gaeltacht would not be fit for growing beet. I entirely disagree with that. The Gaeltacht area invariably borders upon the sea and as a rule contains bogland. Seaweed is very good manure for beet, and profitable crops of beet can be grown on bogland. I cannot understand why Deputy Lynch made that statement. I grew beet seventeen years ago and I used seaweed. I grew it on bogland and had a very good crop. With regard to the Cromane mussel fishermen, I was not aware that there was a tariff on fish in England. The Deputy complained that fish was held up in England. I did not know there was any tariff on fish and I think fish must have been held up there for some other reason. It would have been better if Deputy Lynch had shown as much regard for the mussel gatherers at Cromane, when he was Minister for Fisheries, as he showed to-day. The same conditions were prevailing for the last ten years as are prevailing at present. If Deputy Lynch, when he was Minister, had put a vessel at the disposal of the fishermen of Cromane and the other fishermen all along the coast, which would make regular calls at various points and gather the fish and take the and other shell fish in boxes across to England, and the cray fish and crabs to France, he would have done a good job for those fishermen about whom he is so concerned to-day. Shell fish might then pay.

I was glad to find the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government taking up the attitude that stones will be broken on the roads in future by hand where the labour is available. It was a shame to see stone crushers crushing stones in the rural districts where people were practically starving for want of work. That has been the case all over South Kerry. The Parliamentary Secretary has told me that where grants are made he will insist, in future, on stones being broken by hand where hand labour is available. That is certainly a move in the right direction. With regard to lime, some effort should be made to make lime available in the poorer districts. I know little villages in Kerry where lime is sold at 1/- per stone. It is very hard for the poor people living around these villages to use lime on their land, in such circumstances.

In regard to sewerage, I would direct the attention of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to the condition of the town of Kenmare. I want, if possible, to get a grant for the promotion of a sewerage scheme there. There is no sewerage scheme in Kenmare, which is a town of about 1,600 inhabitants. I think it is a shame that a town like that should be without a sewerage scheme, and I am sure if the Local Government Department would give a grant, the local authorities would be prepared to meet the situation. Deputy Roddy spoke about relief schemes, and asked why they were taken away from the Land Commission. He said the money was fairly distributed when he was in office, but I assert it was not and I say that no one got work except a certain section of the people.

Mr. Roddy

What I said was that Fianna Fáil Deputies had admitted that the money was fairly distributed.

Mr. O'Reilly

I do not admit it was fairly distributed. I say it was not. How can you say that money was fairly spent when the making of an embankment that cost £1,300 lasted for two years? I do not call that money well spent. The schemes were managed by Land Commission gangers who employed their own class of workers and invariably only their own class.

Mr. Norton

Great as has been the encouragement, I do not want to make what I might call a local speech upon this Estimate. I would much prefer to take the line which has been taken by Deputy Anthony and by Deputy Roddy in connection with this matter. When we come to consider the ways and means of spending money for relief purposes, there are ways altogether outside the ambit even of a relief vote in this House. A good deal of the necessity for relief, to-day, arises from the selfishness of local authorities in carrying out schemes of work already approved, or taking advantage of powers available for them in initial schemes of public work in their area. Take house-building, for example. One would imagine that before now a good deal would be done by local authorities to take advantage of the provisions of the Act of 1932 and in that way initiate comprehensive housing schemes in their own area, not only to provide decent houses for the people but employment for a large number of people. It would give employment in the initial stages and would be of assistance to schemes under this Vote.

The economics of house building are that the erection of a house of moderate size will give employment to one-and-a-half men per year, apart altogether from the fact that a considerable amount of employment will be provided in producing the materials necessary for the erection of a house. House building activities, if undertaken by local authorities, and if advantage was taken of the powers available, would help, in a large way, to relieve an amount of distress and destitution. Local authorities are given these powers and could give a large amount of relief of this kind. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is very keen that local authorities should take advantage of their powers in that respect and I suggest to him here, as I did elsewhere, that every possible pressure should be brought to bear upon local authorities to carry out these schemes, which will prove very valuable in the way of providing the maximum amount of employment in their areas. Consideration of the provision of work brings us up again against the question: what is the most useful kind of work to provide? Occasionally Departments raise the question as to the most economic kind of work to be provided.

There is no worse form of waste than allowing people to be idle. Idleness is the most uneconomic feature of economic life. And no matter what scheme of work is provided it could never be so uneconomic as leaving men or women idle. But there are, perhaps, degrees of usefulness in all relief schemes. There is a kind of work which, while it provides employment and affords means of occupying men's time, is not of the same social value as other kinds of work.

I quite agree with the statements of Deputy Anthony and Deputy Roddy that there is no better kind of public work to undertake at any time, but especially in an unemployment crisis, than the provision of sewerage and water supply schemes. It is a horrible reflection on our civilisation in the year 1932 that, in so many decent-sized towns throughout the country, there is neither a sewerage nor a water supply scheme. There is one town in my constituency which is dependent for its water supply on a stream that runs through the fields. The water is contaminated by cattle during the summer months and, as I have said, it seems to me a horrible reflection on our 1932 conception of civilisation, progress and scientific achievement that towns in this State should still be dependent for their water supply on a stream which comes down from the mountain side, the water getting contaminated by cattle and not subject to any kind of filtration. Surely the health of the people dependent on a primitive water supply of that kind is very gravely imperilled indeed.

Water supply and sewerage schemes are badly needed in many areas. While I know that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Local Government are extremely keen on the provision of such valuable social services, I am not at all so sure that many local authorities realise to the full the benefits to their unemployed people and to the people generally resident in their areas of taking full advantage of any facilities which may be offered for the initiation of such schemes. I know that the Department is sympathetic. I know, too, that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary charged with responsibility to this Dáil for the control of the Department are extremely sympathetic, but I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that consideration ought to be given in the direction of awakening many local authorities from the slumber and apathy into which they have fallen so far as the provision of essential public health schemes is concerned.

There is one other matter that I think might be tackled. If it were it would, I think, help to do something to recover our name and reputation so far as respect for our dead is concerned: that is the question of graveyards throughout the country. The most beautiful sites in the country are often the places selected for graveyards. Yet the condition of many of these graveyards is a sad reflection on our civilisation and sense of Catholicity. I think that something ought to be done by the Minister's Department to get local authorities to recognise their responsibilities in putting our graveyards in order, thereby showing that we have more respect for the dead than their condition would indicate to-day. A good deal of useful work could be done in that direction and much employment given. I think that the country generally and its reputation would benefit as a result of the carrying out of work of that kind.

I agree with Deputy Roddy that there comes a time when one must judge between the value of one scheme as compared with that of another. During the past ten years we have spent very considerable sums of money on the improvement of our roads. Speaking as one who has pretty extensive knowledge of the roads of this country and of European roads, I would say that our roads, and especially our main roads, compare favourably with the best roads in Europe. In fact our main roads are so good as to be the envy of any roads in the world. We have to ask ourselves, in connection with the expenditure of this one million pounds on road work, whether we are going to continue making very good roads perfect, or whether we are going to turn money for relief schemes, such money as has been spent in the past on road making, into the carrying out of drainage schemes and the repair of bog roads. Drainage schemes, as Deputy Roddy rightly pointed out, are very valuable indeed. I think the Deputy, like myself, had in mind not so much drainage schemes concerned with the drainage of the Fergus or the Barrow, but rather minor drainage schemes which can do a lot to improve land and make roads in an area passable, schemes which can do a lot to bring a measure of social convenience and comfort to residents in many areas.

Minor drainage schemes are very important. We have not been spending on such schemes the sums of money that we might very well, with advantage to the community, have spent on them. I hope that the Minister on this Vote, and on others that may be contemplated, will not lose sight of the question of initiating on a comprehensive scale small drainage schemes. These provide employment for a large number of people over a very wide area.

The making or the remaking of bog roads is another work of national importance. Bogs exist to a very considerable extent in the country. There is in our bogs a latent source of wealth which has never been adequately exploited. I know one area in my constituency where, over a distance of 15 miles, you can see nothing but bog. In that bog is an inexhaustible supply of turf, and yet last year in that particular area, because the roads leading to the bog were so bad, the people there for the first time in living memory were obliged to buy coal. Fancy people living in a bog of that area being compelled to buy coal because it was impossible for them to get into the bog to take out the turf. Work in the making and remaking of bog roads would provide a good deal of employment. Such work would have a great social value. These areas, from an agricultural point of view, are poor and barren, and if my suggestion were acted on the people there would be put in a position to help themselves by being enabled to exploit the latent source of wealth in the bog surrounding them.

Under these relief schemes which have been inaugurated there has been a good deal of complaint in various areas against the introduction of mechanical stone crushers and the employment of heavy motor lorries for the haulage of material. These schemes are essentially unemployment relief schemes. If it is possible to provide employment by hand in the breaking of stones, I suggest to the Ministry that the economics of hand-broken stone as compared with the mechanically crushed stone might not be raised as an issue in such a crisis as this. I think that the mechanical stone crusher might be left out of consideration, and that as much employment as possible should be given in the way of having the stones broken by hand. As to the other complaint with regard to the heavy motor lorries, I think that the possession of one of these vehicles is prima facie evidence that the owner is obviously not in need. You find in many areas that men who have a horse and car are in many instances not able to provide food for themselves and their families. Now a good deal of employment might be made available for these unfortunate people if the use of the big, heavy motor lorries were eliminated in the cartage of the material. I agree, of course, if the material has to be carted a distance of 10 or 15 miles, that it would perhaps be unreasonable to expect that we should go back to the days of Babylon and have it conveyed by hand or by horse and car, but in cases where it is possible to use the local horse and car instead of the imported heavy lorry, then I think the former ought to be used so that the relief afforded will be distributed over the widest possible area and amongst the maximum number of people.

Mr. O'Neill

I want to make a few general remarks with regard to the administration of relief. I think that, from the previous speaker's remarks, it will be realised that the administration of this relief can be carried out with a view to doing the greatest good to the greatest number if particular attention is paid to the towns and cities. After all, we are administering relief, and, at the present time, the necessity for relief is keener and more acute in the towns than it is in the rural areas. Deputy Norton, and Deputy Anthony, also, referred to the utility of sewerage schemes and water schemes for some of our towns, and it is an extraordinary thing that, at this age of the world, the ordinary amenities of life are wanting in some of our bigger centres of population. The rural districts, of course, are badly hit at present, and I know areas where the people have not got money to buy bread, but, at all events, they have got, and are able to live upon, milk and potatoes, but our workers in the towns have not got milk and potatoes, and I think that any scheme of relief that would not take cognisance of this fact would be wanting in carrying out its principal object, the relief of the poor and workless.

Our towns are very hard hit at present. In urban districts they have got to maintain certain services because they are urban districts and they are unable to maintain them owing to the difficulty in getting in the rates and also owing to the fact that these towns are declining in valuation. The markets have begun to disappear. Fairs are of no value recently and the shopkeepers in these towns are, as a result, very badly hit. There is no staple industry or employment in these towns and the people live generally on distributive services. I would ask the Minister to take particular note of the exigencies of these towns. The County Council of Cork, I think, has sent up a memorandum, or is to send a memorandum, pointing out that a halt to some extent should be called to roadmaking, because the making or improvement of roads beyond the point which they have now reached may in future become a liability on the council, because their maintenance will fall on the local administrations and they have asked that those administering the relief schemes will pay more attention to reproductive work. But there are still some roads in the neighbourhood of some of the towns I have referred to, the resurfacing or remaking of which would help to give employment and relief to the urban dwellers there. That is a point I wish to emphasise, that, in any relief scheme, primary cognisance should be taken of the necessity that exists in these towns for immediate relief.

There is another matter which I have raised before with the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It is not a matter which we can relieve directly under a scheme of this kind but it is a matter to which attention should be drawn now with a view to seeing how the problem can be solved. I refer to the question of Irish sailors in our coastal towns who now find themselves out of employment in ever increasing numbers owing, in the first place, to the general decline in sea-borne trade and, secondly, and directly, in respect of some of them, to the ‘Boycott British Ships' policy which the present Government is advocating and to our own economic war. These men, being Irish nationals, after being employed on British ships are not insurable because they are domiciled here and they can get no relief in the way of unemployment benefit. I raised this matter with the Minister for Industry and Commerce but he told me that the numbers were not large. How large the numbers may be I cannot say but I know that in the town of Kinsale up to 100 men, some young and some married, who have followed the occupation of seamanship all their life and on whom a big proportion of our population depend, are unemployed, and when Kinsale sailors are out of work, things must be bad, because they always got first preference on these ships and they are looked on as the best sailors possible.

How are we to bring relief to these men? They are not capable of being absorbed into other occupations, because a sailor does not easily adapt himself to another calling. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to make a report on this point, which is a matter for the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. We have no Irish sailing or shipping services and I think most of the services in this country are controlled at present from outside. We have, however, weekly and monthly and, generally, regular sailings between Irish ports and English, Continental and American ports, and these ships do a considerable trade with this country. Representations should, I think, be made to them in the ordinary way that, having regard to the benefit that they derive from their trade with this country, they should see that a certain number of Irish Free State nationals would get berths and work on those boats. In that way we would be helping to solve what is at present in the coastal towns an extremely pressing problem.

Mr. Coburn

The Minister, in introducing this Vote, said that whatever moneys would be spent, would be spent wisely, judiciously and reproductively. With those sentiments I thoroughly agree, and I also agree that the Minister is doing a great service to large numbers of our people who find themselves unemployed at present, by voting these sums of money for the relief of unemployment. The great difficulty with regard to the manner in which these moneys should be spent is what I may call the setting out of a scheme which will give the best return for the money expended. Many Deputies have referred to various types of useful work to which these moneys could be devoted. Amongst these were house-building, which was referred to by Deputy Norton, who also referred to the tendency on the part of many public bodies not to proceed with the building of houses as speedily and as expeditiously as the Minister would like. I would like to draw the attention of Deputy Norton and, incidentally, the attention of the Minister, to the reasons for the delay, especially in regard to the erection of houses for the agricultural labourer.

Mr. Davin

On a point of order. Is it fair to Deputy Coburn and to the House that this debate should be carried on, in view of the fact that not one member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party is present?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Coburn

I suppose Deputy Davin thought I was going to criticise Deputy Norton; I am not.

Mr. Davin

Send for some of the Cumann na nGaedheal members.

Mr. Coburn

Deputy Norton referred to house building as a subject that requires very careful consideration. I would like to point out to Deputy Norton and to the Minister, that one of the chief reasons why houses are not being erected with the expedition that we should all like is because the tariffs which have been imposed on materials have considerably increased the cost of building. As I got figures recently I hope the Minister will take cognisance of the fact that certain building materials on which tariffs of thirty-three and one-third per cent. have been paid can still be imported from Northern Ireland, and can be sold at anything from twenty to thirty per cent. cheaper than they can be procured in Saorstát Eireann, the total in certain of these building materials making from sixty to eighty per cent. of a difference. That is one of the chief difficulties county councils and bodies entrusted with the building of cottages are up against. The tenders received for these cottages are so much that the economic rents that would have to be charged to cover repayment of the principal and interest on the loans would be in the ratio of 3/6 to 4/- per week. When one considers that at the present time labourers who are in occupation of cottages built under the Labourers Acts find it difficult, according to themselves, and, according to what appears in the newspapers, to pay 1/- weekly, how would it be possible, in view of the economic position now prevailing—in my opinion it is, in many cases, much worse than the position that existed a few years ago—for others to pay the higher rents?

I candidly admit that I have great sympathy with the Minister for Local Government in the magnitude of the task that lies before him in regard to the provision of houses for rural labourers. I know that he is most sympathetic, and for this reason I have done much—perhaps not in public, but in private—to secure that what he has in view will be accomplished with regard to the provision of these cottages. I throw out this suggestion to all whom it may concern, that it would be well if those who are interested in the building of houses, whether for labourers in the urban or the rural areas, would give that co-operation which is so essential if this very important work is to be accomplished at all, and to give the subject that close study which the Minister in a recent speech said he hoped it would get. If he got that co-operation it would go far towards solving a problem which is occupying the attention of the Department and the officials.

Under this Vote I would like to draw the Minister's attention to another matter. I think Deputy Lynch has already referred to the mussel industry. Although the Deputy's remark dealt with a different aspect of it, I would remind the Minister that the mussel industry gave a good deal of employment to a section of people in Dundalk who went out and gathered mussels at certain times and exported them to great Britain. I could not get the annual revenue that was derived from the sale of the mussels, but twenty or thirty families got a living from the industry. Recently, as a result of certain things that happened in Great Britain, the importation of the mussels to England was prevented on the grounds that they had become contaminated by sewage which was discharged into the river and which lodges close to the beds where the mussels are procured. This matter engaged the attention of the previous Government and, as far as my recollection goes, it had tentatively agreed that purification tanks should be erected some place along the coast, in which the mussels could be purified before being exported to Great Britain. That is a scheme to which portion of this Vote could be devoted, and it would give employment to people who are now unable to follow their occupation.

Reference has been made to coast erosion. I do not know whether that question comes under this Vote, seeing that a committee is at present sitting and dealing with the question of coast erosion. Lest the Government might be allocating any portion of this Grant to coast erosion schemes, I should like to point out to the Minister that right along the coast adjoining the port of Greenore there is a very large tract of land there which is being endangered by the effects of coast erosion. I should like to draw his attention to the fact that that is a locality in which part of this Vote could be very usefully spent, seeing also that as the result of the curtailment of the sailings from the port of Greenore many of those who formerly found employment there at the moment find themselves unemployed.

The question of lime has been referred to. There again I should like to point out to the Minister that owing to the dispute existing at the moment between the two Governments, the lime industry, as far as Louth is concerned, has been very adversely affected. We have two very fine lime kilns there and we have a large tract of agricultural land adjacent to those quarries, which land, I am informed, is in much need of lime. I quite agree with Deputy Goulding and the other Deputies who referred to this question of lime that many of the small farmers in those districts are not in a position to buy lime at the price at present prevailing. I think it would be a good thing, therefore, if some little help were given, possibly by way of a subsidy, to those who are at present working the lime kilns. As far as our locality is concerned the advantage is that the kilns are there and in good working order, which would enable the farmers to have this lime for their land. As regards the question as affecting the allocation of the Grant, I admit here and now that, as far as the constituency I represent is concerned, we have no cause of complaint. I think the Grant is allocated on a very fair basis, and I know of no case where any public body that put up a scheme that would be for the good of the people in the locality in general, was turned down by the Ministry.

There is just one other matter to which I should like to refer before concluding. That is, that very often in the employment of men on these relief works there is a certain amount of criticism. Certain suggestions are made that favour is shown. I want to say here and now that, as far as I know, there is no truth in these allegations whatsoever. The officials at the various labour exchanges carry out their duties in a very conscientious manner. These duties, as everyone knows, owing to the large numbers of unemployed at the present time, are very onerous, and it is very difficult— almost an impossibility at the present time—to place everybody. One hears criticisms that only supporters of the Government will get jobs in these relief schemes. I do not pay much attention to these reports, but this I do know, and I say it to the Minister, that sometimes they arise from over-impetuosity of their own supporters. It sometimes happens that the supporters of the Government in power think that they have a right to nominate people for certain works and sometimes it happens—in fact, it often happens and has happened recently, I think—that Ministers are annoyed by busybodies, as I call them, sending letters to the Minister saying that so-and-so got preference over so-and-so in the allocation of the work. I think that on the whole those criticisms are not fair either to the Minister or to the officials in the labour exchanges. As far as I am concerned, and as far as I know, there is absolutely no ground for such criticism.

There is just one other matter to which I should like to refer, and that is in connection with stone-breaking— many of the Deputies have referred to it—that is where the stones in the future are to be broken by hand. Of course, it is very good, but I should like the Minister to look into one aspect of that situation, and that is that the winter is not just the most pleasant time for a man breaking stones sitting along the roadside on a cold winter's morning. If my information is correct, the price that is given by the various county councils is not one that would commend itself to those unfortunate men who have to sit there with just a sack over them during the whole length of a long winter's day. The price per square yard is not very enticing in these circumstances.

Professor Thrift

Does he not want employment?

Mr. Coburn

He does. At the same time we would like fair play, and if the Minister would look into that matter he might find some way whereby some slight increase might be given that would enable these men to earn a good day's pay for what everybody will agree is very hard work.

These are all the matters to which I will refer, as the Vote has been discussed in all its aspects by the various Deputies. We only hope that, as a result of it, many people, who at the moment find themselves unemployed, will be employed before the festive season of Christmas. But I do want again to emphasise the fact, especially in regard to house-building, because I know the Minister is very interested in the question of house building, that the prices prevailing at the moment for building material are very far in excess of what they ought to be. That is a matter to which I hope the Minister and the officials in his Department will give very special attention, because it is one that will have very far-reaching effects on this question of house-building, especially for the workers in the rural parts of the country.

Mr. Little

There is just one matter I should like to raise in connection with these Grants, and that is, where work is being done, as for instance in the City of Waterford, on roads. The roads being put down under the new Grant are concrete roads, and, on more than one occasion, we have had experience, when a road is getting mended, of the gas pipes getting crushed under the pressure of the work whether in ripping up the road or otherwise, so that a leakage has occurred. There was one case in the County of Dublin of such a thing happening, which had serious results in the case of a man and his wife. The wife died as the result of the escape of gas and the husband was in hospital for a very long time. The grants being made at present are made in order to meet abnormal unemployment and, as a result, the grants themselves are abnormal. In the ordinary course of events, a gas company allocates a certain amount in order to keep up with the amount of road repair done, and they pay for all the work done in connection with that themselves, but where an abnormal amount of money is being spent upon road repair, where the undertaking is not in the ordinary course, it puts too heavy a strain upon the capital of the company. The result is that a gas company, as in the case of Waterford, is not able to meet the expenditure involved in keeping up with the actual road repair. They, therefore, get left behind and, afterwards, either an accident like the one I mentioned may occur, where public danger is involved, or else they may have to rip up the roads again which have been so well put down. Of course a job, especially in concrete, which is done as a whole is infinitely better than a job where the road has to be broken up again and you have to patch the concrete. To patch concrete is very unsatisfactory anyway.

What I suggest is that the Corporation be allowed to co-operate with the gas company to this extent, that they should facilitate the gas company in making investigations, according as they open the road; in other words, that there would be a slight increase in the work carried out by the Corporation; that instead of merely dealing with the surface they should facilitate the gas company by digging sufficiently deep to lay bare the pipes and give the gas company an opportunity of doing their work there. The gas company, of course, would not ask for any money for the purpose of actually mending the pipes, but merely to get co-operation from the labour employed by the Corporation so as to make it easy for them to work as rapidly as the Corporation wish in carrying through their schemes. The amount involved by the extra labour would not be, in proportion to the whole sum, very much. I should like to have the matter put on record, so that it can be investigated and the idea adopted in carrying out the plans for the laying of the streets in concrete in the City of Waterford.

Professor O'Sullivan

I have only a few words to say in connection with this Relief Vote. Of course, as the Government realise perfectly well, this is, as are all Votes of this kind, only a palliative at the very best. As Deputy Little put it, it is an abnormal amount that we have to vote this year on account of what he has described correctly as the abnormal unemployment that affects the country at present. I understand that the Government have large schemes in hands, although most of these schemes themselves will be mainly for the purpose of providing employment, and will not be reproductive in the sense that they will lead to other work afterwards. Everybody must realise that they are practically unavoidable in the present situation. I do not want at the moment to enter into controversial matters, but a more permanent method of dealing with this matter has not yet been found. Therefore, as Deputy Little clearly put it, abnormal measures are necessary, especially during the present year. There are various ways in which Deputies have brought before different Government Departments useful public works that can be done in different portions of the country. Each Deputy, especially on a Vote of this kind, avails of the opportunity to put up claims on behalf of his own particular constituency. I should like to follow the example in that respect of practically everybody, unavoidable I fear owing especially to the rather abnormal conditions which prevail in my own county. Deputies Lynch and Coburn have already referred to a matter that I am sure, owing to the petition sent up from an exceptionally poor portion even of that county, is already receiving the attention of the Government. It cannot be pretended in the case of the mussel industry that Deputy Lynch referred to that there is any home market here which can relieve the situation. In fact, the only method in which relief can be granted is that suggested in the petition sent to the Government, namely, the granting of an export bounty. That is so obviously a case for the granting of such a bounty, that I have no doubt the Government will respond.

Mr. MacEntee

What has this to do with the Vote?

Professor O'Sullivan

It has already been mentioned twice.

Mr. MacEntee

An export bounty!

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it Deputy O'Sullivan's suggestion would afford employment, that is, if this industry was put on its feet.

Professor O'Sullivan

As usual, the Minister is wasting more time by his interruptions than if he allowed me to conclude in one sentence. There have been various schemes put forward by the Government to secure what, in their belief, will be plans for more permanent employment in this country. I have already on more than one occasion expressed grave doubts as to the fruitfulness of one particular scheme. Whatever chance a wheat scheme, for instance, may have in other portions of the country, any information I have got is that such a scheme will have very little effect so far as the constituency I represent is concerned. The bulk of the farmers whom I have spoken to, and those whose views I got indirectly as well, are convinced that the project is not a feasible one so far as they are concerned. This particular project, if it is carried out, may cost the country a considerable amount of money in the future and that money, in the way of bounty, must come from the people. The result is that my particular constituency—and I have no doubt there are others somewhat similarly situated— will be under the obligation of meeting a very considerable charge and getting precious little benefit out of it. On that account I would ask the special attention of the Government for the claims of what is by no means a rich constituency, a county which, under the old C.D.B. was all scheduled, I believe, as congested. There is, in that particular county, both in the country and the town districts, many schemes, as the Government will have no difficulty in finding out, that have been already vetted by the Land Commission and the Local Government Department; many that have been approved by these Departments and which have not been proceeded with merely because the Vote passed on a previous occasion was not sufficient. Therefore, there need be no delay in taking up and carrying through a number of these works. There certainly will be no lack of suitable, and from that point of view, profitable undertakings that can be furthered by the Government. That holds true, especially in the country districts which very often are sadly in lack of that particular kind of accommodation that is especially dealt with in relief votes and that cannot be dealt with very well otherwise, namely, these bog roads.

Deputy Coburn has referred to another matter that is also very important so far as this particular constituency in Co. Kerry is concerned. He mentioned the great need of lime. In the past the farmers wanted it very badly. They have been unable to buy it. Schemes have been submitted to the Land Commission and the Local Government Department that will help the Ministry to come to a decision in that particular matter when they coordinate their efforts. Not merely are the country districts in Kerry hard hit, but the towns also require a considerable amount of assistance. Every town in the county is hard hit at the moment. Business is seriously interfered with. I have no doubt the Department of Local Government is well aware of the crying needs of some of the towns in County Kerry—in fact, all the towns. One particular town has been particularly hard hit owing to the by no means satisfactory character of the tourist traffic in the district during the year. I am not now referring to the actual number of tourists who passed through Killarney, but to the amount of money left in the area by tourists. The amount of money left by people who stayed overnight in the town has considerably diminished. We all hope that the coming season will be better, but I am afraid we must take measures on the assumption that it will not be better. We will not next year have the assistance of the Congress and, consequently, I must ask the Government to pay special attention to the needs of the very poor in the towns in Kerry who have been severely affected owing to the present depression.

There are special reasons why that county requires particular treatment. There is no lack of schemes so far as the villages and the country districts are concerned. I have no doubt the Local Government Department will see that the various schemes along the lines inaugurated by the late Government will be continued—schemes relating especially to matters connected with public health. From reports I have received and from conversations I have had, it would seem that many people in the county are sadly in need of the ordinary means of livelihood. That is the condition obviously operating amongst the farmers and the lack of circulation in money is being felt in the towns. I appeal to the Government to give special attention to these matters.

Mr. Davin

The generous offer of the Government to provide large sums for the relief of unemployment on a national scale will not, in my opinion, have the desired effect, and up to the present it has not had the desired effect, simply because the necessary headquarters and the necessary local machinery have not been properly established. It is useless to tell us that the money is there, when the people who have the responsibility of spending it will not set up an efficient headquarters or local machinery so as to get relief works started as quickly as possible on a national scale. When making inquiries in the Departments at the beginning of this week I was surprised to find that the numerous applications sent to the Board of Works and the Local Government Department for the relief of unemployment in my constituency had not been investigated. It would seem that the investigating officer who must be appointed for every area has not been appointed for that area.

I am told there are 2,800 able-bodied men waiting for work. The money is there, but it cannot be spent because the necessary machinery has not been established. These large sums can usefully be spent on a widespread national scale. In the interests of the taxpayers the Minister for Finance should see that as good a return as possible will be got for any money that is expended. In some cases I know that laxity on the part of local officials has been responsible for holding up the spending of money. That is true of part of my constituency. I have furnished reports on the matter to the responsible Department. I know of cases where large sums have been allocated for public health works and the estimate has been exceeded at the expense of the ratepayers simply because there was no efficient local engineering supervision. I could furnish other cases outside my own constituency which indicate that the same thing has been going on elsewhere.

The Minister should get, even in a temporary capacity, a highly qualified engineer whose duty it will be to pay surprise visits to the areas where these works are being carried on, and satisfy himself that a good return is being got for the money, that as many men as possible are getting employment, and that the ratepayers will not be mulcted as they have been in some cases in the past. I know cases where the contract price for carrying out sewerage and waterworks schemes has been exceeded and the benefit of the Government grant has been wiped away. That could have been avoided if there was efficient engineering supervision. It is incumbent on the Minister to see that as many men as possible will be employed immediately and that the people providing the money will get a satisfactory return.

I hope the Government in allocating money for housing will ask the Housing Board, if it has not already considered the matter, to draft general directions which can be sent out to the local authorities so that they will carry out the housing schemes in something like a standard fashion. The moneys available will enable the local authorities to get the necessary house-building work speeded up. There is laxity there, too, on the part of local officials. It may be due to the fact that they have not the necessary assistance locally. That is a thing that might be considered by the Housing Board. It is true, as Deputy O'Sullivan has said, that there are schemes for every constituency of a character that makes provision for a high labour content. I believe that in the allocation of moneys preference will be given to the schemes that contain the highest labour content so that as much as possible of the Relief Grant will go in wages to those who want work throughout the country. I cannot over-emphasise the necessity for setting up immediately an effective headquarters machine and for seeing that that machine will work in harmony with the local officials. I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he should have an early consultation with the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and with his own Parliamentary Secretary to see how far that machinery is in existence at the moment and to do all he can to make effective such a headquarters machine so as to enable these schemes to be put into operation as quickly as possible, thus carrying out the intention of all parties in the House.

Mr. A. Byrne

I desire to avail of the opportunity afforded by this Vote to issue a warning to unemployed from counties other than this county. Unemployed from other places where they can find the bus fare for half the way, or in some cases where they cannot even find the bus fare at all, are coming to Dublin—many of them walking —in the hope that they will find work under some of these relief schemes. Relief from the Dublin rates will probably, in a week or two, reach £5,000 a week. This week, I understood, it is £4,700. I suggest to those who are encouraging unemployed persons to leave their districts and to come to Dublin that they are neither fair to the unfortunate unemployed of their own districts nor fair to the ratepayers of the City of Dublin.

This problem, so far as Dublin is concerned, should be a national one and something should be done to secure that the Dublin rates will not be increased to such an extent as will make it impossible for the industries we have here to continue in operation. Taxation is altogether too high, and Dublin is being asked to bear more than its fair share to keep the unemployed from being subjected to greater hardship than they have to bear at present. I ask the Minister to go into the matter a little more closely and I think he will find that, in proportion to the number of its unemployed, Dublin is not getting a fair share of the grants that the Government is providing. I heard one Deputy say here to-day that he could find no fault with the disbursement of the moneys for relief. That Deputy is fortunate in coming from an area which has the lowest number of unemployed in the Twenty-Six Counties.

Deputies may ask what is the cause of all this. I ask them to recall the period—two or three years ago—when the National Army was being disbanded—when many of the men were time-expired. A National Army man who enlisted in Fermoy or some other town was discharged a couple of years ago in the City of Dublin. Because of reports that reached him, that there was no room for him at home, he made no effort to go there. Dublin City is now burdened with the upkeep of that individual. While members from country areas may feel satisfied, I say that Dublin City has reason to complain of the burden that it is asked to bear. In dealing with the unemployment problem and the relief grants, it would be well if we could find out how many unemployed left their own districts within the last couple of years and came to Dublin in the hope that they would get work somewhere. Even to-day, unemployed men are coming to the city and making it more difficult for their unfortunate colleagues in the city who are in the same plight as themselves—eagerly looking for a day's work—to get a job.

Mr. Briscoe

Is not Dublin getting thirty times as much as it got last year?

Mr. Byrne

I am not going to be interrupted by Councillor Briscoe.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Briscoe, please. Dublin has got thirty times as much as it got last year.

Mr. Byrne

I take up that challenge. Does Deputy Briscoe mean to say that an unfortunate married man in Dublin living on a ten-shilling food ticket or a single man who has got nothing at all, is well off? Is Deputy Briscoe satisfied with that state of affairs?

Mr. Briscoe

I want to say——

Mr. Byrne

I ask Deputy Briscoe if he is satisfied with the position of the unfortunate unemployed man in the City of Dublin?

Mr. Briscoe

I will answer Deputy Byrne.

An Ceann Comhairle

With the consent of the Deputy.

Mr. Briscoe

Do you want an answer?

Mr. Byrne

I do.

Mr. Briscoe

I am satisfied that this Government is giving thirty times as much in relief as the Government that Deputy Byrne supported last year gave. They gave a £5,000 grant last Christmas. This Government gave £50,000, and is now giving £72,000 and £50,000 towards the relief of distress in Dublin. In addition, it is giving a big grant throughout the rest of the country, so that men will not have to come up to Dublin to seek work. I am quite satisfied that the Government is doing its best.

Mr. Byrne

That is an evasive reply.

Mr. Briscoe

It is not.

Mr. Byrne

I asked you, as a Deputy from the City of Dublin, if you were satisfied that the unemployed of Dublin should be left in the position in which they are to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy would now move to report progress.

Mr. Byrne

I move to report progress.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again on Wednesday.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 o'clock until Wednesday, 23rd November, 1932, at 3 p.m.