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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1932

Vol. 45 No. 7

In Committee on Finance. - Debate on Adjournment.

Question proposed—"That the Dáil do now adjourn until Wednesday, 1st February."

The Dáil is now going to adjourn for approximately two months. We are adjourning at a time when our national economy in this country is in a very serious, but not dangerous state. It so happens that we are amongst the few countries, if there are really any other countries in the world, in the position of a creditor State. We have considerable investments outside and we had up to some short time ago a fairly sound national economy here. At present we are in the throes of an economic conflict which is reducing considerably the revenue from our principal industry— agriculture. The effects of this economic war are manifold. They have their results upon other people as well as those immediately engaged in agriculture. In so far as the agriculturists are concerned the effect on some has been almost catastrophic. Few have escaped lightly, and it would be impossible to estimate what the actual losses are in a great many cases or what the potential losses may be in quite a number of cases. Agriculturists have really been attacked on two sides, on the one hand in respect of their exports and on the other in respect of the costs incidental to their industry. These costs have been very considerable. The result of these two attacks has been that while the immediate effect of the blow has directly affected agriculturists its reactions have been felt all along the line and employment throughout the entire State has been affected. Unemployment has increased; want has increased; poverty has increased, as is evidenced by the numbers receiving home assistance and the cost of it throughout the State. The numbers compare very unfavourably with last year.

We have now certain people who were quiescent a short time ago redoubling their efforts, and who are interesting themselves in a policy which they describe as "Boycott British Goods." Our main market is in Great Britain. The main source of the wealth that comes to this country is Great Britain. We are one of Great Britain's best customers. National economy in practically all countries is such that few countries can expect to export and to escape importing. There has been, however, quite recently an activity on the part of certain people to boycott British goods. I understand that one of the persons most prominently identified with that is an Englishwoman. In any case the Press reported recently instances where certain traders had been called upon in Dublin and elsewhere throughout the country and warned against stocking British goods. One of the disadvantages of this conflict is that you have not alone what are called statutory impositions on the part of the two countries, but you have also the boycott, either silent or pronounced, in either one or the other. I think it is the duty of the Government to take steps to see that there is no interference with traders stocking goods here and doing business according to law. If we desire to prohibit goods from any country let us do it according to law. Let us enact legislation and let it be seen clearly and distinctly what our proposals are. We have passed a measure here within the last ten minutes giving preferential rates to British goods. Let us be honest both with ourselves and with those with whom we are in conflict, if we are in conflict with them. If there has been any departure from the settled practice of giving traders the protection to which they are entitled, then I should like to know why that departure has been made. I do condemn most positively any attempt on the part of any of our citizens to organise with a view to injuring either the trade or the goods of any other country. I have no apology to make for that statement because there is no person here who has, so far as his means allow, done more than I have in respect to Irish manufacture.

We are a separate and independent State and we have all the obligations as well as the rights of an independent State. We have obligations towards people outside this country as well as towards our own people. Apart altogether from any spiritual obligation that there is on us in that connection, it is to our material advantage to keep on good terms with our neighbour when we are dealing so extensively with him as we are. By reason of this economic war there has been a shortage in the money circulating in this country. Traders are short of money; business is interrupted; there are complaints about the state of business and complaints about the difficulty of collecting accounts. At this period, when one requires to have circulating in the country all the money available, this economic conflict we are now engaged in with the British is stopping the circulation of money, decreasing the wealth that should pour in here, and is leaving us at this time of universal world depression in a weak position.

One of the most remarkable publications issued by this Government since it came into office was the record of the proceedings at Ottawa. At Ottawa the other countries of the Commonwealth all stated what their difficulties were; how hard pressed they were to meet the enormous obligations that were resting upon them in respect of borrowed moneys. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and perhaps to a lesser extent South Africa, had to point out how much money they had to pay to their creditors in respect of borrowed money. It transpired that in one case, I think it was Australia, where they were in serious financial difficulties a few years ago, they had to increase their production enormously and reduce, as far as they could, their importations. The result of the increase of their production has been that we have had to meet enormous competition on the British market in respect of mutton, lamb and butter. Australian and New Zealand— particularly Australian — exports to Great Britain have practically doubled in respect of mutton, and they had gone up two and a half times in respect of butter. Those are articles with which we are in competition. Those countries, as I have said, have their own serious financial liabilities to meet, but they met them in the way in which they almost deluged with goods the market with which we are in competition. They have drawn from that market, and must draw from it even though the price is small, very much more money than might otherwise be expected. They have reduced the price of our goods there, and have in consequence limited our spending capacity, limited the means we have for providing employment, curtailed our wealth, and interfered with our production.

In the case of those countries the appalling thing about it was the enormous sums of money they had. We were, as I have said in the beginning, better equipped to enter upon this international competition for trade than any of the other countries, and we have, unfortunately, come back from Ottawa, where there was a possibility—not alone a possibility but a probability—of doing a great good for the country, empty-handed, except for two agreements, negligible in value, but of themselves capable of extension, if we had had proper attention paid to the needs and the requirements of this country. We have got to make up our minds here now that it is upon whatever we are able to produce at a competitive price that we are going to make the prosperity of this country. We have to make up our minds, so far as public expenditure is concerned, that if it is raised to such a height as will interfere with that production or increase the cost of that production above any relative international standard, the people of the country are going to suffer.

While we have heard that this Government, according to its own account, has practically carried out its undertakings in respect of public commitments before the election, it is quite apparent from what has transpired that they have achieved all the easy things. The passing of Acts empowering the spending of other people's money is no fulfilment of what they promised before the election. They have introduced two or three Acts. I will give them credit for all the Acts they like to claim for. What it has come to in substance is this, that they have collected more from the people, when their capacity to pay was never lower, in order to vindicate themselves, but they have failed in their fundamental policy, and that is to rebuild on sounder and better foundations the national economy of this State. Now, if we were to take stock of the wealth of the country and its potentialities at this moment, as compared with when they came into office, they would show a very large falling off, and it is from the wealth of the country that any possible results can come in respect of employment. The returns in respect of employment, the returns in respect of home assistance, and the huge amount of money spent in that connection are proof positive of what I have said, that notwithstanding the moneys they have raised and spent, the results are much worse than what they were before they came into office.

In July, 1931, 76,000 persons were in receipt of home assistance: in July, 1932, 90,000; in August, 1931, 76,000 approximately; in August, 1932, 92,000; in September, 1931, 26,000; in September, 1932, 94,000; in October, 1931, 80,000; and in October, 1932, 102,000. Practically the same results can be seen in respect of the expenditure. The expenditure in July, 1931, was £10,748 per week; in July, 1932, £12,307; in August, 1931, £10,642; in August, 1932, £12,475; in September, 1931, £10,933; in September, 1932 £12,956; in October, 1931, £10,954, and in October, 1932, £13,432. It is no pleasure to read out these figures. I would very much prefer to see the other side of the picture, but taking the case as it is and seeing that danger signal, what is going to be done about it? In respect of the taxation that has been imposed this year, has the Government taken advice as to what possible results their policy might lead to, whether or not they had been drawing upon capital, or whether they were simply drawing from revenue. If from capital then the results in the future are going to be worse than they are at present. Much the same result, as I have said, can be extracted from the figures of registered unemployed.

We have had our political experiments here in this country; we have had our political differences; but on one thing, at any rate, there ought to be agreement, that is what is the measure of the contribution that can be given from all sections towards the rehabilitation of our national economy. On that question there can be agreement. The first essential in that connection is peace with Great Britain. One does not win all one's wars, and it may be too costly a war to win if we won it. It may be much too costly. If we save £5,000,000 and lost our export trade what we have gained is a bagatelle — an absolute bagatelle. If we could save some of the £5,000,000 and keep and extend our trade, then we would have done well. If, as a result of the sober weighing up of all those factors, the Government sees the wisdom of doing what is best for this country then they will end this war, and the sooner they do it the better.

I wish to draw the attention of the Dáil to the manner in which importers' licences have been granted indiscriminately, not on the merits or according to the rules that are laid down but according to the strongest political influence that the applicant can pull, with the result that at the present time importers' licences are granted on wholly political and partisan lines. Two questions were on the Order Paper to-day, and I submit that the Minister for Finance was not in a position to defend the action of the Department in the issuing of the licences. One of those licences was issued to a firm in Cardonagh, Messrs. McDonagh & Company, who, in my opinion, were not in a position to show a quota of any import of Indian corn grain. Another application was made by a trader named Norris. That man's invoices can be produced, and they will show an import of grain for the year 1931 of at least 150 to 200 tons, but because he was unable to use the same political influence as other people his licence was refused. The issuing of these importers' licences does not alone refer to the import of grain, but to other articles as well as maize, and I submit that in the circumstances the various departments should change their method of issuing those importers' licences, that they should issue them in an honest, straightforward way to people who are entitled to get them, and make investigation into the representations that have been made by the various firms who were supplied with those importers' licences. Another question I have down to-day, and which was answered by the Minister for Agriculture is in connection with this new mixture of ten per cent. oats and 20 per cent. maize, the result of which is that in my part of the country there are very large stocks of oats left on the hands of the traders, and they cannot get a penny for them. The result, inevitably, will be that a very large proportion of them will be spoiled before there will be a market found for them, and I think it is up to the Minister to consider the question of giving an export bounty at once in order to give these people an opportunity of getting rid of their surplus stocks.

It is a peculiar state of affairs to hear these people on the opposite benches coming forward with all their complaints when they themselves have caused the whole trouble. Their whole grievance apparently is that three individuals with no authority went over to Britain and handed over £5,000,000 per year of our money. That they had no authority was proved by a resolution passed in the Dáil on the 26th February, 1926, when Deputy Cosgrave was then President. Despite that resolution, the money was paid every year, and I think there is nothing more amusing than to hear Deputy Cosgrave talking now about the British market as our only hope while he knows right well, as I pointed out a fortnight ago in the Dáil, that he could have walked over there last year and made a case not alone for the retention of that £5,000,000, but a case for getting back every penny illegally paid. He knew that quite well and he knew also that our farmers were getting £13,000,000 less for their produce in 1931 than they got in the year 1924, the year after Mr. Blythe signed the secret agreement. He knew also that the difference in price which the farmer got in 1930 and 1931 was just about double the land annuities— £6,000,000 difference between the price of what the farmer got in 1930 for his produce and what he got in 1931. Notwithstanding all this, they sat there and just said "if the old farmer is not able to pay his annuities we will evict him, but the blood money must go over to Britain. We must get the last farthing, no matter who pays." The individual's name was even mentioned in this secret agreement, who was to fix the price the Irish farmer was to pay for his land and that individual was a member of the Masonic Order in this country who——

The name of any person who is not here cannot be mentioned by the Deputy, and no indication must be given in any way which would leave the public or members of the House to know who was being referred to.

The individual is mentioned in the secret agreement that was found in a pigeon hole in one of the Government Departments.

The Deputy must do exactly as the Chair directs him.

Very well. For the past four or five years those people have used the whip on the back of the poor Irish farmer on every available opportunity, with their Land Act after Land Act, with the tenants' interests and the landlords' interest—the landlords who kicked the poor tenants out. Whose fault is it if there is trouble with Britain at the present time? Britain put on the tariffs. Who told them to put them on? Deputy Blythe, of course, who went around last year and said: "I will advise John Bull what to do," and John Bull put the tariffs on the cattle. Every time we attempted to meet Britain in the hope of arriving at a fair settlement our delegates found before they ever left this country that they were stabbed in the back. For instance, when Mr. Thomas came over here to fix up the arbitration business he made no demand that the payment of the half year's annuities which were due should be paid before they would arrive at a settlement. Similarily, when the President of this State went over to Britain no demand was made for the half year's annuities before they would negotiate a settlement. On the very night Deputy Norton left this House to go over to Britain and see if a settlement could be arrived at, the Deputy of the kicking cow, Fitzgerald-Kenney, and Deputy Blythe got up here and stated that before there was any settlement at all, or any negotiations entered into, the half year's annuities should be paid, and when the President of this State went over the following day, Mr. MacDonald, using the bullets handed to him by his friends here, said: "You must pay the half year's annuities before any negotiations can be entered into."

We had Deputy Cosgrave talking about home assistance. Well, the poor people are getting more now than they ever did when the Deputies opposite were in power—home assistance has been doubled—and we have taken every case separately and looked into its merits. We hear another cry, "Look at the lists in the labour exchanges" and "Look at the increased unemployment in the country." There was many a poor fellow, sometimes perhaps with a wife and five or six children to support, who walked the soles off his boots before he got employment in Deputy Mulcahy's labour exchange and after walking there he would find at the end of the time that there would be some young gentleman just demobilised out of the Army, and if a vacancy did arise then that young man would be entitled to first preference as against the poor man who had been coming there for months, even though the young fellow had no family. I challenge Deputy Mulcahy here in this House to deny that. As usual we have them coming along here with their nonsense. Anybody who studies the position knows the facts well. Deputies opposite know it only too well. When I challenged them here a month ago to come down to East Cork and let the country pronounce between them and us they ran away from that challenge.

Why did you not move the writ yourself?

We will get the Catholic Party to move it, the only Party who can move anything now.

You were in a position to move it yourselves, why did you not do it?

I can say that in my constituency we have found permanent employment for 400 hands and in a few months' time we will have permanent employment for 1,000 hands —hands that were deprived of employment by, I will not say the deliberate work of, the late Executive Council. That Executive Council by their action closed down the Glanmire mills. The late Minister for Industry and Commerce by a 20 per cent. tariff on waterproof coming in, and the 25 per cent. tariff on other materials for making them, closed this mill. Last year we had as a consequence the Civic Guards walking around the streets in waterproofs made by the Victory Rubber Company of England. The difference between the price tendered by the Irish contractor and the English contractor was 9d. per suit. For the sake of that 9d. per suit, 103 hands were thrown out on the roadside to starve and the work that should be given to them was given to foreigners while our Civic Guards were swanking around in waterproofs made in London. Thank God there is now in office a Government who are going to see that there is going to be no unemployment and——

Hear, hear.

——that if there is to be unemployment it is Englishmen who will be unemployed and not the people of this country. We have at present down in Glanmire 103 hands working in the factory that was closed down last February through the laziness of the late Minister for Idleness. That is the gentleman that is now taken up by the Catholic Party. We have the same position now with regard to our flour mills. Only one week after we came into office we had young Mr. Rank down in Midleton with his tape measure measuring the plant with a view to transferring it and closing down the mill in Midleton. But there is a Government there now who will not allow that. That mill is now working 24 hours a day with three shifts a day. And that is the mill that was practically closed down through the able work of our late Minister for Idleness. We have the same position existing in practically every single industry in this country.

What was their policy? Anything that can be made cheaper in any other country than it can be made here should not be produced here. I heard Deputy O'Donovan coming out here last week with that doctrine. That was the policy of the Farmers' Union Party and that was the policy adopted by the Cumann na nGaedheal Party—anything that can be made cheaper in any other country should not be produced here. If we follow that policy out to its logical conclusion we should take all the individuals in this country who are in employment, gather them all up and put them into one work camp as I heard the Farmers' Union representatives practically advocating. In their places we should bring over coolies to do their work. That would be the natural working out of their policy.

Those are the people who come along now and complain about unemployment. They are just like the fellow who comes along after having set fire to the house and when it was well burned out asks for compensation for the loss of the house. These people have for years, through the illegal payment of moneys to another country, brought about that state of affairs and they come along now and say "the house is going to be burned." I did not look for any decency from them, but if they had any spark of decency at all they would shut their mouths. It is nothing that these people should have been handing over money to England since 1926, since the resolution was proposed by Deputy Cosgrave. That is the resolution to which I have already referred. That resolution states that unless the agreement has the approval of the Oireachtas it is not effective nor legal. That was the resolution carried through in this House. When did the Ultimate Financial Settlement receive the sanction of this House? That is what I would like to know? That resolution, of course, was proposed with their tongues in their cheeks, but yet the cardboard Mussolinis went over and paid the money to a foreign Government. These people say to the Government "Why do you not settle now?" Why did they not settle last January? They were the people and they have as their policy one of settling this. They are the people who threw the chestnuts into the fire and they are the people who should take them out. Surely to goodness they will get a share of goodwill in the settlement. They drew salaries for acting illegally for the last five or six years. Why do they not come along now and do the right thing.

Perhaps we will find later on that there are other agreements made by them and documents that did not come into the grand burning that took place before they went out of office. But there were a few documents saved from the burning. They are apparently very disagreeable documents now to members of the late Government. If they have any more of them they might as well come along and make a clean breast of the matter. They should not be coming in here as a party of cant and humbug. If they have any respect at all left for themselves they should keep their mouths shut and hide their heads now until the fight we are carrying on is over. That is the very least they should do. If the people who set fire to the house cannot in any way help now to put out the fire, they should at least refrain from throwing any more petrol on it while the fire is burning. But that is what these people are doing at the present moment. As far as we are concerned, I gave them a fair offer a month ago and that was that if they wanted to know the people's opinion of our policy they could come down to my constituency and test that opinion. I promise the Opposition that when they do come there they will get the answer that any and every group who ever sold this country got from the Irish people.

It would be a relief to the House, and I think to the country, and probably to himself, if the Deputy who has just sat down would only practise what he preaches. The Deputy said: "Let us have no more humbug,""No more cant,""If you cannot say anything decent, shut your mouth." I hope the Deputy will take to himself the advice he has given to others.

The advice would be wasted on you.

It would be absolutely and completely wasted on me. I am afraid there are a number of Deputies here who are inclined to treat Deputy Corry with a certain amount of levity, and who are inclined to think that the statements he makes are hardly worth listening to. As a matter of fact, a large number of Deputies cannot even bear to listen to the Deputy. They walk out when he gets up to speak. I think that is a mistake. The Deputy is rather clever as, in my opinion, he has just proved, because he has talked for nearly half an hour and said nothing. He avoided dealing with any point which was raised, either in this debate or upon any of the matters which were discussed during this session, which would be relevant to this debate. The Deputy nearly succeeded in making the impression upon himself that he has, apparently, made upon many Deputies, when he talked about unemployment and about outdoor relief. He talked about unemployment. I would ask any Deputy, even Deputy Corry himself, who has time to-morrow, to look up the Official Debates, and to read the speech the Deputy made this day 12 months ago—on the same motion, when there were at least 50,000 less unemployed than there are to-day.

I challenge that. It is not true, and the Deputy knows it.

I do not mind the Deputy's challenge. In my opinion, and speaking for my own county, and from personal experience, the number of unemployed in this country has been increased by at least fifty per cent. in the last twelve months. Deputy Corry worked himself into a fury and, in my opinion quite rightly, on the subject twelve months ago. Does the Deputy challenge the fact that there are 22,000 more people in receipt of outdoor relief to-day than there were twelve months ago?

Do you want an answer?

Does the Deputy challenge the figures that were issued by the Government that he is supporting?

I have explained that.

No. The Deputy told us that those who were in receipt of home assistance were getting more, but he did not tell us that there were 22,000 more people looking for assistance.

They were looking for it last year and did not get it.

They are not getting it yet. If the Deputy reads the newspapers, and I am sure he does, he will find that in order to obtain it the unemployed are compelled to force their way into some meetings. I think the House is under a debt of gratitude to Deputy White of Donegal, as it looked as if the debate was going to collapse until he came to the rescue. We did not see that same enthusiasm, and that same general desire to get up and plead the cause of the unemployed that we saw twelve months ago, and two years ago. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle was going to put the motion when Deputy White came to the rescue. Why? Is it because the unemployed are better off to-day than twelve months ago? Is it because there are less unemployed to-day than twelve months ago? Will Deputy Corry tell the House, even now, after nine months, what is the plan which he, in common with other members of his Party, told the electorate last February they had for the immediate solution of the unemployment problem? We have not seen the plan yet. The House has not seen it; the country has not seen it. I wonder if the Labour Party has seen it; the plan that was to find employment for 80,000 and, I think, 41 persons.

What is the plan? Did it ever exist except in the imagination of Deputies? If there is a plan surely, in fairness to themselves, if not in fairness to the unemployed, it ought to be produced. We were told that whilst unemployment was to be reduced taxation would also be reduced. Can the Vice-President tell us, or can he give me an answer to another question, as I failed to extract an answer from the unofficial Minister for Employment—I think "for Unemployment" would describe him more accurately. How much of the £1,000,000 for road work has been allocated and upon what basis has the money been allocated? How much of the amount allocated has been spent to date, and how much remains to be spent? Can we have from the Minister for Local Government and Public Health an assurance that a letter similar to that which he addressed about six weeks ago to the county surveyor for the North Riding of Tipperary informing him that he was forwarding £4,500 as a final allocation, and hoping that the county surveyor would take steps to see that in the whole of the North Riding the £4,500 would be spent before the 31st March next, was not sent to every county surveyor in the Free State? If the Minister for Local Government and Public Health will accept my words, he need have no fear whatever about the £4,500 being spent before the 31st March. I can assure the Minister that it has been spent already. We are hoping that the Minister in this matter, as in many other matters, may change his mind.

In the course of his speech Deputy Cosgrave referred to the British boycott movement. I want to say that if it is thought necessary or desirable to boycott or to exclude British or goods produced in any other country, this House, and the present Government, have all the powers they require. They can absolutely exclude any goods and we can, in effect, live within brass walls or, if you like, glass walls. I agree that no person, no group of persons, and no organisation, not acting under the authority and with the consent of the Government elected by the people, has any right whatever, good, bad or indifferent to interfere in any way with the trade of this country, either the internal or the external trade. In that connection I would like to have a reply from a Minister who is not present. I am sure some of his colleagues will reply for him. I would like to ask the Minister for Defence if he issued an order that Bass's ale is not to be supplied in military canteens. If the order has not been issued by the Minister, has it been issued by any other person acting under his authority? If not, can the Minister assure the House that the order has not been issued by anyone? If the order has been issued, I think we are entitled to get from the Minister his reasons for giving such an order.

I want to say that so far as I am concerned I have no brief good, bad, or indifferent, for Bass's ale. We are producing in this country at the moment—and I am stating this quite frankly as one who has a little experience of it—an ale that can compare favourably with any ale produced elsewhere. But let us be quite clear that if we are going to have tariffs or embargoes, no tariffs or embargoes can be issued or given effect to in this country by any person, any group of persons, or any organisation other than the Government elected by the people of the country. I think that even my friend Deputy Corry will subscribe to that.

There are one or two other matters to which I should like to refer but I do not want to take up much more of the time of the House because I understand—and I may say I am myself quite in agreement with that understanding—that the debate is to conclude at a certain hour. I do not want to take up time that properly, and perhaps more profitably, should be given to other members of the House but I do say this on the eve of the recess—perhaps on the eve of an election—that if the Government have a plan for dealing with unemployment, if they have any machinery thought out, if they have given any consideration to the production of any machinery to give effect to the motion which was debated in this House for about four days, and which was passed unanimously by the House on the 26th June last calling upon the Government to provide work or maintenance to meet the immediate needs of the unemployed, I want to get from the Vice-President a statement as to what steps, if any, have been taken to give effect to that.

I want to ask the Vice-President if he is aware that since the motion was passed by the House and accepted by the Government on the word of the President, the Minister for Industry and Commerce and certain lesser lights in the Party, the bill for the maintenance of the unemployed has been increased enormously and that instead of its falling on the national Exchequer, it is falling on the local ratepayers. Is the Minister aware because of the failure of the Government to give effect to the motion, that the outdoor relief bill in the South Riding of Tipperary has been increased as from the last meeting by £1,000 per week? I should like to ask the Vice-President if he can tell me when he is dealing with the matter, or if he can tell the ratepayers of the South Riding of Tipperary, in particular the farmers —and again, I would like to remind the Vice-President, in case he does not know it, that South Tipperary is mainly, if not altogether, a dairying district—how they are going to provide another £52,000 per year in rates to meet the increased poverty and destitution which have necessitated that increase in South Tipperary.

I did not intend to say anything in this debate, but I feel called upon to do so, after listening to Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Morrissey talking about the increase in home assistance and how it has gone up by leaps and bounds for the few months this Government has been in office. I do not know whether Deputy Morrissey, who comes from a rural area like myself, is a member of a home assistance committee or not. As one who has been a member of a board of guardians, and who is at the present time chairman of the Home Assistance Committee for North County Dublin, I should like to say a few words on the conditions that prevailed during the years the other Government was in office. Heretofore we could only give outdoor relief to an old man or woman who had a doctor's certificate. At the present time any young man is entitled to go to the home assistance officer in the rural area. That was not permitted until this Government took up office. For instance, in the year 1930-31——

That is not under review now.

I quite agree, but it has been referred to here by Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Morrissey in stating that the outdoor relief bill has gone up. They referred to the rates in 1931-32. In 1931-32 I was surcharged for giving a widow with one child home assistance because she was an able-bodied woman and the doctor would not certify that she was unfit for work. At the present time, single persons even though they may be only 18 or 19 years of age, are entitled under Section 30 to get home assistance. I have advocated that myself always, and the relief bill has gone up every year since 1920. It has doubled since this Government came into office because everybody is entitled to get home assistance and more luck to them. They are quite entitled to draw it when there is no work.

To come back to the question of unemployment; in January, 1932, the last Government, when hard pressed, gave a grant of £1,500 to County Dublin. I do not know why it was given in the month of January. It would not give a breakfast to all the unemployed in County Dublin. The present Government has made a grant of £19,000 to relieve unemployment in County Dublin. We did not hear much talk about what the other counties got. Deputy Morrissey did not tell us what Tipperary got, but I think we can take it for granted that they got over £19,000. I am open to correction, but I think they got £27,000, judging from what I saw in the Press. Along with the £19,000 which Dublin got there was £11,000 granted for public health purposes. We are asking for a little more and I hope the Minister will see his way to grant the few thousand pounds that has been asked at the present time. It is only a small sum, £6,000, and I have every confidence that the Minister will grant it to relieve the pressure during the coming few months.

Deputy Morrissey mentioned Bass's ale. There was a time when I was interested in these goods, but at the present time it is to be hoped that the Ministry will take the attitude of prohibiting all classes of drink. That is my attitude in this House and in my constituency. I do not mind what any person may say or what action they may take against me. I say that the canteens should be shut down together with a lot of other halls throughout the country. I hope the Minister will take some notice of that and say that he will introduce a Bill later on during his term in this House to do away with all drink. That is my attitude.

Previous speakers have referred to the British boycott, and the last two speakers have mentioned the matter of Bass's ale. I understand that recently members of the licensed trade in Dublin have been written to by this Committee that calls itself the British Boycott Committee and asked not to sell Bass's ale. I understand that individual traders have been visited by young men, and warned to dispose of their existing stocks of this commodity and not to get in any more. In certain cases the actual demeanour of those who called upon the traders may have been courteous enough. But traders know very well the sort of people who are running this campaign and they know very well that the request, no matter how it may be phrased, and no matter in what tones it is delivered, is a threat. The licensed trade, I believe, have asked the Minister for Justice to meet a deputation to discuss the matter. I understand the Minister for Justice has refused to meet them. It seems to me that the Minister for Justice ought to meet them, and to consider, with them, what way this campaign in general can be stopped and what way it can be stopped as applied to this particular trade. It is a very wrong and intolerable thing that people carrying on their business should be subjected to interference by organised gangs of bullies, and that nothing effective should be done to deal with them. As this particular commodity was mentioned I think that nobody in the House can fail to see the economic danger that is involved in allowing a boycott campaign against the sale of this commodity to be carried on, apparently, with the connivance of the Government. If the Government does not take steps, as has been proposed by the members of the licensed trade, it will appear inevitable that the boycott is carried on with their connivance. Deputies can see easily a campaign of this sort might, in a certain direction, prove to be the last straw and might cause permanent economic injury and permanent loss to employment in this country.

I put it to the Ministry that it is their duty to deal with the whole of this boycott campaign. I know that the newspaper organ, with which the President of the Executive Council is associated, has refused advertisements desired to be inserted by the Boycott Committee. And that is all to the good. But there should be something official done by the Government. It should not be possible for this campaign to be carried out openly, as if it was a perfectly legitimate thing, and not a tyrannical interference with the rights of the citizens. I know there may be difficulty in making legal detection. Undoubtedly there would be certain difficulty in getting evidence that would lead to a conviction for conspiracy or intimidation or something of that sort, but if the Government took energetic action, they could be successful and if they coupled that energetic action with the clear pronouncement that ought to come from them, there would be general support from the community that would enable them to deal with it. I think it should be dealt with and should be dealt with as a question of law and order. It is also a question of grave economic significance. In every aspect I think it is an intolerable thing. There are now powers in the hands of the Executive Government with which they could stop the sale of this commodity in a few weeks if they desired. They could stop it without the disorder this leads to. If the Government let the people running this campaign get away with it they will proceed to others and we will have evils of every sort arising out of it. The Government ought to take their courage in their hands and deal with the matter. They ought not to be afraid of those irresponsible people or any allegations they make. The Government should do its duty, as a Government and certainly it is its duty to see that no movement of this kind is allowed to get growing. If it is allowed to grow it will naturally only produce disorder and will raise such difficulties. Even if we had a settlement to-morrow, it would be impossible to get rid of the bad feeling that this would create in a particular market for a long time if allowed to go on. I am not surprised that Ministers are not anxious to join in this debate. I do not suppose anybody on the Front Government Bench would feel as satisfied, or could speak with the conviction on the matter, that Deputy Corry appears to have.

When the House assembles again, after this adjournment, nearly a year will have run since they came into office, and during that period there has been the gravest deterioration in the economic state of the country. The unemployment figures that the Government have been compiling have shown such an increase in the number of registered unemployed. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is now introducing his new schemes with a great flourish of trumpets, has said he would find out what the real unemployment was all over the country with the object of reversing the policy of the last Government. He now says these figures are inaccurate and that the scheme is wrong. We are told further that there is less unemployment than the figures show.

Deputy Curran and other Deputies spoke about grants and home assistance. A good deal of money has been spent in the form of home assistance and in the way of relief grants, but it is no use, because in spite of it, the actual suffering of the poor and the amount of distress in the country are increasing. Unemployment is increasing despite the men who have got work in a few of the new factories. Hardship and destitution are becoming much more prevalent, despite the changes that have been made in outdoor relief, and people are suffering more. The worst of it is that with all this increasing unemployment, and all this increased poverty and destitution, we are only at the beginning of a very bad spell. Every week the economic squeeze is becoming tighter. Employers have had to take their first action in works in which the whole staff and full wages were maintained up to a week ago. They have had to get rid of some of their staffs, while others have been forced to take compulsory holidays; and when the Christmas season is over the whole arrangement in many factories and workshops will have to be reconsidered and rearranged.

The same thing applies in the case of agricultural employment. Labourers who have been getting the old rate of wages, up to this, have been told this week that they cannot be kept on, or else the wages will have to be cut down. The economic position is really like a stone running down a hill. All these dismissals and reductions in wages are caused because the decrease in the spending power of the public is going to reduce trade still further and is going to lead to more reductions and is going to lead to more discharges of the same sort.

People who are conducting these protected industries, on which the Government have imposed the high tariffs, have many of them said that they are getting no real benefit out of the tariffs, that when the tariffs are taken in conjunction with the whole of the rest of the Government policy, they are worse off than before. They may not have foreign competition to face, or to put their backs into industry in the same manner as formerly, but they have not the customers who can pay, so that, while they ought to be selling more and employing more, some are employing less and selling less. If the Government policy continues, I see no alternative to that position getting worse and worse.

The Government, when it came into office, was faced with the position in which the income of the country was falling. Where the slump was affecting our whole economic fabric, where they ought to have been careful not to cause any shock, and where, if economies could have been reasonably effected, they ought to have effected these economies in expenditure so that production should be carried on successfully and people in business might have the best opportunity to maintain their business and improve it when improvement would be possible, instead of that the Government introduced a tariff policy which was absolutely unconsidered, a tariff policy which caused losses that were entirely unnecessary and which were not counterbalanced by any advantages whatever. They put on tariffs at heights at which they need not have been put on and on articles for which there was no justification for putting them on. This tariff policy raised the cost of living and the cost of production, and increased in many cases the cost of the raw material. At the same time, in spite of decreasing powers of expenditure, it wantonly increased the cost of living, causing an enormous increase in taxation which will run up to £4,000,000 a year and which actually is £2,750,000. When the Ministers were told that their increase in taxation, their putting up of the income tax to 5/-, and so on, would injure employment, they scoffed, but I think that some of them must realise now that that taking of money out of the taxpayer's pocket has been one of the things that has frozen trade, that has caused a fall in turnover, and made it necessary for business houses to decrease wages, and that it is one of the things that has prevented the tariffs being any good to the businesses already established because it took away the funds existing for the purchase of their goods.

Along with all that, we have had the commencement of the economic conflict. I think that, even if we had not that conflict, the policy of the Government would have made things worse, but in view of the unnecessary commencement of that conflict, in view of the refusal of the Government to arbitrate or to negotiate, I think that things have been brought to such a state that within 12 months, if the conflict continues, not only will we have widespread bankruptcy, but I think we will have such suffering and hardship on the whole community as many Deputies fail altogether to recognise. I do not know whether I might make a suggestion to the Government for the ending of the economic war. It may seem a fantastic proposal, but it is not more so than many of the things to which the Government have already committed themselves. The Government has pledged itself, and Ministers have pledged themselves recently, not to pay over the land annuities or the other sums that are in question to Great Britain until there has been arbitration or until negotiations have convinced them that they have got to be paid, or until some consideration makes it worth their while to pay them. On the other hand, they are paying bounties on exports. Those bounties are scarcely reaching the producer at all. If they are having any effect on prices in the market, it is an infinitesimal effect. Your 12½ per cent. is not producing 3 per cent. increase in the price. Nevertheless, the bounty is a contribution to the British Customs duties levied on the other side. I do not know whether this Government would agree to arrange to have a deposit account to the amount of £5,000,000 with the British Customs authorities, from which they might draw the duties charged on any goods exported. In that way, we could export freely. We would have Free Trade, but the honour of the Government would be saved, because we would not be paying over the land annuities. Perhaps the Government would adopt some device like that. It is a device of the sort that would be dear to the heart of the Leader of the Government. He would always prefer to do things in a complicated way instead of a simple way, and perhaps he might consider this proposal.

So far from reducing expenditure the Government policy is bound to increase expenditure enormously. The Minister for Finance, in answer to a question I put to him, indicated that the Revenue staffs have already been so increased that an extra cost of £61,000 will fall on the Exchequer. Nearly all of that £61,000 is due to the tariff policy of the Government. Of course, the tariff policy of the Government has thrown enormous other extra charges on the people. If a Control of Prices Bill is put into operation, if there is any attempt to make it effective, there will be new hordes of officials and new charges thrown on the taxpayer. The Cereals Bill, which has been passed to-day, will also throw great charges on the taxpayer. In every direction, the Government policy is going to mean greatly increased expenditure and it is going to mean greatly increased numbers of public officials. And, in addition to all this, the Government is faced with declining sources of revenue. Income tax is bound, in view of the yields of income of the present year, to be down very seriously in the year that will begin on 6th April next. If the Minister wants to get the revenue from it that he is getting now, he will have to increase the rate. If he does increase the rate, there are going to be reactions by removals of people from this country that will rob him of the result of that increase. So far as I can see, it is certain that, no matter what the Minister does in that respect, his yield of revenue in the year beginning in April next is bound to come down. His yield of revenue from many other taxes will also decline. The Government, I know, is not likely to be stuck for money in the present financial year. They can use the Suspense Account. They have an Exchequer balance. They have, owing to the good credit that was built up by the past Government, borrowing power, and they can continue to borrow on that credit, but they are eating up the nation's capital. They are producing a position wherein twelve months from now, if the present Government remain in office, we are bound to be up against a financial crisis of the most serious kind.

I think that it is the duty of the Government, even now, to make some effort to end this state of affairs. They can end it by some side-stepping device if they like. We will be satisfied if they end it. They can end it by arbitration, they can end it by negotiations if they are prepared to negotiate. All the indications on the other side are that terms can be got that would be advantageous to this country. If they do not end it not only will the economic deterioration continue and become more rapid, but your British Boycott Committees and other illegal organisations, will tend to become harder to deal with. The Government, if they continue in office, and maintain their present policy for any length of time, will present this country with a legacy of collapse and disorder which will be very hard to rectify, no matter who takes control after them.

I did not intend to take any part in this debate until I heard the pessimistic speech which has just been delivered by Deputy Blythe. Deputy Blythe and many of his leading colleagues, ex-Ministers, have become born pessimists since they changed their seats in this House. Deputy Blythe himself has, within my own recollection, and in one case even quite recently, made speeches in this country which do not well fit in with the responsibility he held in this House as a Minister in the past ten years. He, apparently, can see nothing except bankruptcy, ruin and revolution facing this country.

Only if the present Government remain in office.

What useful purpose does Deputy Blythe, Deputy O'Higgins or Deputy Cosgrave, or any other leading member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, serve by suggesting, not to the people of this country, but to the people outside, that the country is worse than it really is? We are told that because of certain incidents here and there throughout the country that may have been created by irresponsible people, that we have in this country thousands of Communists and revolutionary individuals. I prefer to take the word of Cardinal MacRory regarding the number of Communists inside this country than the suggestions contained in speeches made by Deputy Blythe, Deputy O'Higgins and others. The people of this country, no doubt, regret many things that have happened and hope that these isolated incidents will not occur again. We have been given indications from the Ministerial Benches, on several occasions, that they will see to it that the Government writ will run in this country. We have every right to accept the assurances given in that respect by people who hold positions of responsibility in the country. It ill becomes leading members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, men who held offices of responsibility in this country for ten years, to be broadcasting to the world that this country is worse than any other country in the world to-day. There has been far less crime committed in this country during the last year than even in one city in the United States, or in a big city in any other part of the world.

I agree to a certain extent with Deputy Blythe that there is a shortage in the circulation of money in this country this year compared to the amount that was in circulation last year. May I, for that reason, suggest to the Minister for Finance and to his Parliamentary Secretary who is responsible for dealing with schemes for the relief of unemployment, that that is all the more reason why they should let whatever money they have in hands flow a good deal more freely, particularly at this time of the year. I know, and the members of our Party have reason to know, that the pigeonholes in the offices of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, as well as in the Department of Local Government, are filled with schemes which if put into operation would provide useful employment for thousands of people in areas where employment is badly needed, and where the circulation of money would serve a useful purpose, especially at the present time.

Now that we are on the eve of an adjournment of the House until 1st February next, may I tender this advice to the Minister for Finance and to his Parliamentary Secretary: to study immediately, carefully and sympathetically, during the Christmas period, the schemes that are lying in their offices. I advise them also to circulate whatever money they have so that it may be utilised for the purpose of carrying out useful schemes in the areas where unemployment and distress are acute.

I have not spoken very often in this House during this session, but I have listened, since the establishment of this Government, to speeches made from the Ministerial Benches which would lead one to believe that they rely altogether upon the building up of industry in this country by the imposition of tariffs. Now I do not know, because I have no inside information, the extent to which additional employment has been provided by the tariffs which have been imposed during the past year, but I venture to suggest that time will prove to the Ministers of the present Government that tariffs alone are not going to build up a new economic structure in this country. I wonder does the Minister for Finance know—Deputies on the Opposition Benches do but are afraid to tell him — the extent to which the banking policy in this country at the present time is operating for the purpose of reducing the amount of money in circulation as well as driving many decent farmers into a state of bankruptcy.

It is well known that during the years 1918-1922 foolish farmers and their friends throughout the country bought up land at ridiculously high prices. To-day we are faced with the fact that the banks which encouraged them to buy land at these very high prices — the banks that helped to increase prices — are sending civil bill officers around many parts of the country endeavouring to recover sums of money which are now far beyond the present value of the land then purchased. A case was brought to my notice the other day where a small farm in, my own constituency—it is a typical case — was in the year 1920 purchased for the sum of £3,650. The foolish farmer responsible for that purchase has since paid off £3,000, yet he is faced with the fact that the sum of £2,600 is still due to the bank. That farm that was purchased in 1920 for £3,650 would not fetch £500 in a free sale to-day.

I want to advise the Minister for Finance that some way must be found out of that particular kind of difficulty. Thousands of farmers in all parts of the country are affected and are being pursued by our banking institutions for the recovery of money which the bankers themselves know these farmers are unable to pay.

Like the land annuities that the Labour Party insist on being collected.

I will leave the leading light of the Army Comrades' Association to make his own suggestions and proposals after I have finished. I hope that the present Minister for Finance and his colleagues in the Ministry are not satisfied that the new economic structure which they have in view can be built up under the present banking policy as we know it. May I hope that he will see his way, if necessary, to set up perhaps during the period of the adjournment some small committee or commission of experts who, from their expert knowledge, can examine fully into the operations of our present banking institutions. Such a committee may be able to devise some means whereby the new economic structure which the Government have in view can be built up inside a shorter period than if the operations of our present banking policy and methods are allowed to continue.

I rise, as we are faced with an adjournment for two months, in an effort to induce the Minister for Finance to allow the money, which he says is available, to flow more freely through the country than it has flowed up to the present and to induce the Government to examine, as quickly and as sympathetically as they can, the hundreds of schemes lying in the pigeon holes of the Board of Works, the Land Commission and the Local Government Department, and to let out as much money as possible during the Christmas season and the period of the adjournment generally.

I am sorry that Deputy Blythe has left the House. Deputy Blythe's speech was compounded of contradictions. We had a host of vague statements depicting depression in the blackest terms in which he could find words to describe it, statements of woe strung one after another in a long jeremiad without one concrete fact to establish the truth of what he was saying. In fact, he never touched reality except in one point when he said that the economic policy of the Government had increased the cost of living. I think that Deputy Blythe's speech can be judged and can be condemned by that statement because within the last six months, the cost of living index has fallen from 165 to 155 points, and the statistical data, carefully compiled by those who are competent to compile it, contradict the one statement in which Deputy Blythe came into contact with reality and show that, far from the policy of the present Government having increased the cost of living, there has been, in the six months during which we have been in office, a substantial fall therein.

His speech was consistent with the general attitude of the Opposition in this matter. Since the change of Government, the Opposition have taken up, in regard to the policy of the Government, an attitude of open opposition, of active opposition and, so far as the discussions are concerned, an attitude of absolute negation. They have never come forward with a single helpful proposal or suggestion. They have utterly belied the statement which Deputy Cosgrave made, on resigning office, that they would be here to help the Government in the difficult task it had before it, and, to-night, in the speech of the ex-Minister for Finance, we have had a further manifestation of their anti-national attitude.

We are engaged in a dispute with Great Britain upon which grave issues hang—the future prosperity of our people, our ability to maintain in this land an increasing population, the opportunity to change our economic structure, to redress its present unbalanced condition and to place our people in the position which other European peoples are in that, in times of peril, they can fall back on their own native resources to find them in food, to find them in clothing and to find them in shelter. There has not been a graver issue raised since the day when the last native Irish Parliament sat in the City of Dublin in 1690 and some attempt was made to recover for the Irish people the land that was taken from them by the sword. I say that in Irish history there has not been a graver issue raised than has been raised now on this question of the land annuities. There has been taken from us a tribute, the extent and magnitude of which, measured in proportion to our own resources, in proportion to the sacrifices which our people have had to make in order to pay it, stands without comparison on the face of the globe. As the President has often said, the reparations which Germany paid, in proportion to the resources of the German people, are insignificant compared with the burden which this tribute imposes on us.

The yearly payment which Great Britain makes in discharge of her debt to the United States of America is very much less, but when the British Government, speaking for the British people, feel that, in the circumstances in which British trade and commerce finds itself that it is beyond the capacity of their people to pay a just debt, and make representations to another Government that they are unable to discharge their obligations in that regard, they, at any rate, received in the House and in the country the unanimous and united support of every English politician and of every English citizen. In our country, our Government are in a position which is only similar to that of Great Britain in that we are unable, as they are unable, to meet this tribute. It is different from the position of Great Britain in this regard that, whereas they feel that in honour they would be bound to pay, we feel that neither in law, honour or equity is there any obligation on us to remit this treasure. When we are in that very much stronger position in regard to Great Britain, how is this Government treated by those who, for the past ten years, have been proclaiming themselves the sole custodians of the national liberties, the jealous defenders of the people's interests, the incorruptible Irishmen who, despite misrepresentations would place the welfare of the people before their own personal reputations? How have we been treated by them? By the suggesting of the very policy by which Great Britain might collect this tribute if the Government refused to pay it.

If there are duties, and penal duties, upon our imports into Great Britain, let the House and the country not forget what Deputy Corry reminded them of this evening, that the man who first suggested that tactic to Great Britain was the late Minister for Finance, the present Deputy Blythe. It was, possibly, from the point of view of those who are seeking to collect the annuities, a very helpful suggestion which Deputy Blythe made at that time. At any rate, they thought it was a helpful one and they proceeded to give effect to it. But contrast the practical efficacy of the advice which Deputy Blythe gave to the British Government in regard to this problem of the land annuities with the proposal which he made in this House to-day. He described it as fantastic. I say it was not merely fantastic; it was malignant and mischievous. He found in our present situation something which awoke a spirit of levity within him and he threw across, laughing as he made it, a preposterous suggestion, one which he himself stigmatised as being fantastic. That is the only assistance and that is the only advice which Deputy Blythe, following Deputy Cosgrave, could give to the Government in its present position. Deputy Cosgrave, of course, the Holy Willy of the Opposition Party——

The what? I did not catch the Minister.

——asked what measure of agreement, of co-operation, can we get in the present circumstances? What can be done to restore national economy? If we save, he said, £5,000,000, what does it profit us if we lose our whole trade? He was professing to be concerned about the present situation. If he were concerned about the present situation surely his first duty would be to make the people realise the magnitude of this issue and not attempt to belittle it in the way in which he did; make them realise that it is not one mere payment of £5,000,000, but the payment of £5,000,000 for at least twelve and a half years and, after that twelve and a half years, the continuance of a further payment of £3,000,000 for another thirty-three years. That is what hangs on it. A payment of £5,000,000 in a period during which agricultural prices will tend to fall lower and lower. A payment of £5,000,000, the real burden of which upon our people will tend to mount for the life-time of a generation. That is the issue.

The toal product of our trade with Great Britain, measured in terms of real profit, is the difference between what it costs us to produce and the price which we receive. It could not, at any time, be more than £7,500,000. And he is asking us willingly to forego our right to retain in this country a sum which at least is two-thirds of the total profit which we derive from our trade. Putting it in another way, if our trade with Great Britain were to increase by 60 per cent. of what it was in 1931-32, he is asking us to refrain from increasing that trade. If Deputy Cosgrave had been really sincere in his offer for co-operation I, for one, would not reject it. If he were prepared to do, even at this eleventh hour, what the leader of the Liberal Members who resigned from the National Government in Great Britain only a short time before did in regard to the issues which they have raised with the United States of America — if he is willing to come along and say that the Cumann na nGaedheal Opposition is at last ready to take its place behind the Government which is fighting to retain these land annuities and will give to that Government all the support that it can command, I would say that that overture on the part of Deputy Cosgrave would be very gladly and very warmly welcomed by us. But that is not what is offered.

Deputy Blythe said: "Let you do anything, only let this thing be ended by your side-stepping the issue.""Let you do something," he said, "which might meet with acceptance in the eyes of the President." Well, the President stands to-day as he stood in 1921 and 1922 in the eyes of Europe and of the world as an unflinching, clear-eyed statesman, without recourse to any subterfuge, who would be guilty of no trick and who will do everything to uphold the honour and secure the interests of this people. And if there is to be a settlement with Great Britain, it will not be the sort of settlement that the Irish people have been subjected to for the past ten years. There will not be a public pronouncement and a secret document. It will not consist of a public pronouncement detailing to the Irish people the alleged advantages which they have secured from that settlement and a secret document which would deprive them of those alleged advantages. Whatever we do will be done in the open and whatever we say in regard to any settlement which will be made will be the whole truth and there will be nothing concealed and nothing secret about it.

Deputy Blythe said that if negotiations were to be opened all the indications are that fair terms will be got. I have never concealed in this House that I am personally very anxious that there should be an end of this quarrel. I know that every member of the Executive Council is in the same position in regard to it. We have eagerly sought a settlement — an honourable and just settlement — of this dispute. We have scanned the horizon for signs or indications that an honest settlement could be got. I confess that I am disappointed. I have not seen any signs or any symptoms of a change of heart on the other side of the Channel which would make us optimistic in that regard. Deputy Blythe says that there are indications. Have the indications been conveyed to him? Where has he seen them? What do they manifest? What do they show? What idea do they give of the form which the settlement will take or the form in which it will be sought? Either he was speaking in utter disregard of what his words meant or else he must have had something in his mind. If he had anything in his mind in that regard, surely it was his duty to disclose what he knew to the House, if he did not feel that he was bound to disclose it to the Government. Or was this just another trick, just an attempt once more to weaken the morale of the people, just another attempt to misrepresent the attitude which the Government have taken up, to try to represent us to the electors as a collection of unreasonable men and unthinking and stiff-necked individuals? Either Deputy Blythe must have had some authority for the statements which he made or they must have been made once again in an attempt to becloud the issue and to weaken the confidence of the people in the present Government.

The Deputy referred to the campaign in progress in this country concerning British goods. I should like to say that the one thing that appals me about a campaign of that kind is that people should waste their energies in the furtherance of a policy so negative and so bad. If they really were strongly concerned to advance the general policy of the Government, they could have found an outlet for their energies in a much more helpful way. There is no use in boycotting the goods of any country unless you are prepared to replace them with others.

The best way to ensure that that replacing will take place is to develop, encourage and support our own manufactures. As much can be got and as much can be done in furtherance of the policy of the Government by going into whatever shop may sell the commodities that you are concerned in keeping out and asking for those which are of native manufacture. Deputy Blythe said that the Government had very wide and very far-reaching fiscal powers, which enabled it to deal with questions of this kind in the way which seemed, in its judgment, best. Every aspect of our trade with great Britain has been examined. We have seen fit to impose tariffs on certain articles of British origin and we have seen fit to allow others to come in without let or hindrance. I think that those who are concerned in a campaign of this kind should give the Government credit for, at least, as much zeal and enthusiasm as they have. Whatever issues have been raised between us and Great Britain, whatever domestic issues have been raised in regard to membership of this House, or the constitutional rights of this people, this Government has been neither weak nor yielding. It has done everything that possibly could be done to discharge the mandate which was given it. If it has not seen fit to do everything, which some people think might have been done in the economic sphere, it is because there were good, sound reasons why it should not be done. Those people who want to widen the campaign are not a help to us, but a hindrance. With regard to the pressure which has been brought to bear on individuals and traders, the Minister for Justice has already indicated that he will afford every protection necessary to traders who are subjected to unwarrantable interference in their business or who are threatened with violence.

What will become of their trade?

In that regard, all traders must bear in mind the consequences of flouting public opinion.

Now, we know. Now, we have it all.

The consequences of flouting public opinion, but we, in this regard, feel that we are as competent to voice public opinion as anybody else. I, for one, am prepared to say that until the Government prohibits the import of any article, there is no justification for a private boycott of it.

Will the Minister say if the Government has prohibited the sale of Bass in Army canteens?

The Government, so far as I am aware, has done nothing of the sort, but there may be a sort of general opinion——

Public opinion!

There may be general resentment in the Army at certain statements made, possibly, by people associated with that concern. After all, there has always been a fairly good national spirit in the Army——

And that spirit has been intensified and developed under the present Minister for Defence.

There is no doubt about that.

The Army feels that, at least, the promises which were made to its members when first enrolled are going to be fulfilled and that the Treaty of 1921 is not going to set bounds to the onward march of this nation.

The most partisan Minister that was ever in this House.

The question has been put definitely to me by Deputy Mulcahy if an order had been issued prohibiting the sale of certain ale in Army canteens. The Minister for Defence has informed me that he is not aware of the issue of such an order.

That is about as definite as the Minister's own statement.

As definite as your remark.

I do not know what else the Deputy would like from me. Surely if the Minister is not aware of the issue of such an order, nobody else is competent to issue an order.

Would the Minister make an inquiry and make an announcement to-morrow or the day after?

What is the Deputy driving at?

I am asking a simple question and I want to get a simple answer to it.

The Deputy is afraid to make the assertion, because he knows it is a lie to say that any such order was issued.

I am prepared to take the statement the Minister for Defence has made, a much more definite statement than he made through the Minister for Finance. I am satisfied with that.

The Minister for Defence has deprived me of the commentary which I was going to make on Deputy Mulcahy's insinuation, that an order can be issued to the Army without the Minister for Defence being aware of it. Possibly, it is the memory of his own past that inspired the Deputy to make that suggestion. Possibly, he was thinking of the time when he was Minister for Defence and when the real responsible head of the Army was not the Minister for Defence, but a camarilla consisting of the heads of the secret society which was being organised inside the Army with his consent, and not merely with his consent, but his actual assistance. The present Minister for Defence knows what is being done in regard to the Army and is prepared to answer to the House for the Army and he says that no order of the type referred to by Deputy Mulcahy has been issued. There were one or two other things I should like to have said. I should like to emphasise the statement made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night, that so far as the economic disturbance arising out of the land annuities dispute is concerned, the worst is over.

That does not square with what the Minister told us to-night about agricultural prices.

Do I understand that the Deputy believes that the fall in cattle prices in England has been due to the restriction upon the import of Irish cattle? Is that the sort of economic theory he is prepared to advance in this House?

I am pointing out that the statement of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, which the Minister for Finance now emphasises, that the worst is over, does not square with what we heard from the Minister for Finance with regard to the trend of agricultural prices in the next few years.

I do not see how it is inconsistent with it.

I would be glad to know that it was not.

I said the worst is over; that so far as the economic dislocation arising out of our dispute with Great Britain is concerned we have passed through the crisis and we are on the road to recovery.

The figures show that.

We foresaw long ago what Deputy Cosgrave referred to to-night, that Canada, Australia and other countries were going to dump into the British market the same products as we were selling there; that that dumping was going to lead to a decrease in prices, to a diminution in our wealth, so long as we had capital invested in that particular form of production. We had taken time by the forelock and the Bill that has gone through the House this evening, giving effect to the new tillage policy of the Government, will be in active operation next spring. Next year, therefore, there will be a decrease in the import of wheat into this country, a decrease in the import of foreign flour, a decrease in the import of foreign-made boots and clothing, an increase in our employed population, and an expanding Irish market for the products of Irish farmers.

And a decrease in the export of live-stock and live-stock products.

In a falling market.

The Minister for Finance has been very kind to allow us three minutes to reply. He might at least, in a short debate like this, have spared us the wastage of time which we have had. He told us that this is the gravest crisis since 1690. So it is. He has spoken of the terms of the British Note to the United States and the lack of assistance to the Government Party by the Opposition in their dealings with Great Britain. If the Minister would use some of the leisure that is going to be his now to study the British Note he would see how an approach to a country with which another country has a difference might be made. He would see that the advice given to his Party by Cumann na nGaedheal in April last was good sound advice that might very well be followed by a Government, no matter how proud or how national it was. He would see that in one part of the Note a distinction is made between a commercial debt and a war debt; that a commercial debt is one where persons having received money are not only able to pay back the capital and interest but improve their own position at the same time, and that a war debt is one which goes up in smoke. The present Government have taken the land of Ireland, in respect of which the farmers had entered into a commercial debt, and in order to save their own faces have turned that commercial debt into a war debt. For their own purpose they have turned Irish fields into what the guns turned the fields of Flanders.

What about the guns of Cromwell and the confiscations of William?

They have destroyed an industry that was increasing, that was giving improved conditions of living to our Irish farmers. They have done as much harm as the explosives that were taken to France to blow up French towns and French fields. They have done that, as I say, in order that they may turn what was a commercial debt, bringing with it all the developments that a soundly invested commercial debt would bring, into a war debt. If the Government will review what they are doing in respect of the debt and in respect of their relations with Great Britain, in so far as they react on our people here, and if they will study the line of approach that the British are making in their Notes to the United States, they may, even at this late hour, remodel the line of approach they are making to the British, and bring the difference between themselves and the British to a speedy conclusion, a conclusion which is absolutely necessary if the economic future of this country is to be saved.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Wednesday, 1st February, 1933.

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