Control of Prices Bill, 1932—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee.

Mr. Lemass

I propose to ask the Dáil to agree with all the amendments.

The following amendments were agreed to.

1. New section. Before Section 4 a new section inserted as follows:—

4. —(1) References in this Act to the wholesale price charged or to be charged for a scheduled commodity shall be construed as references to the price at which such commodity is sold or is to be sold wholesale to a person engaged in the business of selling such commodity retail.

(2) In this Act the expression "sell or offer for sale wholesale" in relation to a scheduled commodity means sell or offer for sale wholesale to a person engaged in the business of selling such commodity retail, and cognate expressions shall be construed accordingly.

2. Section 8, sub-section (4). The words "hold office during the pleasure of the Minister" deleted in lines 34-35 and the following words substituted therefor:—"unless he sooner dies, resigns or becomes disqualified, hold office for such period, not exceeding five years, as the Minister shall fix at the time of his nomination, but shall be eligible for renomination."

3. Section 8, sub-section (5). A new sub-section inserted before the sub-section as follows:—

(5) If and whenever an ordinary member is adjudged bankrupt, or makes a composition or arrangement with his creditors, or is sentenced by a court of competent jurisdiction to suffer imprisonment or penal servitude, or ceases to be ordinarily resident in Saorstát Eireann, or absents himself from all sittings of the Commission for a period of three months without the permission of the Minister, he shall be disqualified from holding the office of an ordinary member.

4. Section 12. The section deleted and the following new section substituted therefor:—

12. Whenever an investigation is being held under this Act by the Commission into the price of a particular commodity, and any member of the Commission is personally interested in any business selling such commodity, such member shall inform the Minister of the nature and extent of his interest and shall not, unless authorised by the Minister so to do, act as a member of the Commission for the purposes of such investigation.

5. Section 18, sub-section (2). After the word "person" in line 24 the words "either on his own behalf or in a representative capacity" inserted.

6. Section 23, sub-section (1). The words "in accordance with such request" deleted at the end of the sub-section and the following words substituted therefor:—"into, in case such request relates to retail prices, the retail and wholesale prices charged for such commodity in the area specified in such request or, in case such request relates to wholesale prices, the wholesale prices charged for such commodity in such area.

7. Section 23, sub-section (3). The words "the subject matter of such representation" deleted at the end of the sub-section and the following words substituted therefor:—"in case such representation relates to retail prices, the retail and wholesale prices charged for such commodity in the area specified in such representation or, in case such representation relates to wholesale prices, the wholesale prices charged for such commodity in such area.

8. Section 24, sub-section (2). The sub-section deleted and the following new sub-sections substituted therefor:—

(2) Where, after the completion of a price investigation into the retail and wholesale prices charged for a commodity, the Commission are of opinion that unreasonably high retail prices are being charged for such commodity but that the wholesale prices charged for such commodity are not unreasonably high, the Commission shall give public notice, which shall not specify the names of the persons by whom such unreasonably high retail prices are being charged, in such manner as they think best suited for bringing to the notice of such persons such opinion and such notice shall state the price to which such prices should in the opinion of the Commission be reduced and require such reduction to be made within a time specified in such notice.

(3) Where, after the completion of a price investigation into the retail and wholesale prices charged for a commodity, the Commission are of opinion that both such prices are unreasonably high, the Commission shall give public notice, which shall not specify the names of the persons by whom such prices are being charged, in such manner as they think best suited for bringing to the notice of such persons such opinion and such notice shall state the prices to which such prices should in the opinion of the Commission be reduced respectively and require such reductions to be made within a time specified in such notice.

(4) Where, after the completion of a price investigation into the retail and wholesale prices charged for a commodity, the Commission are of opinion that unreasonably high wholesale prices are being charged for such commodity but that the retail prices charged for such commodity are not unreasonably high or where, after the completion of a price investigation into the wholesale prices charged for a commodity, the Commission are of opinion that unreasonably high wholesale prices are being charged for such commodity the Commission shall give public notice, which shall not specify the names of the persons by whom such unreasonably high wholesale prices are being charged, in such manner as they think best suited for bringing to the notice of such persons such opinion and such notice shall state the price to which such prices should in the opinion of the Commission be reduced and require such reduction to be made within a time specified in such notice.

(5) If as a result of a notice under this section the reduction or respective reductions required by such notice is or are made within the time specified in such notice, the Commission shall report accordingly to the Minister.

(6) If notwithstanding a notice under this section any reduction required by such notice is not made within the time specified in such notice the Commission shall make a report to the Minister setting out—

(i) the reasons for their opinion that the prices or respective prices required by such notice to be reduced are unreasonably high,

(ii) their opinion as to whether such prices are influenced by any agreement or combination for interference with trade competition,

(iii) their opinion as to the price or respective prices to which such prices should be reduced and the reasons for such opinion,

(iv) their opinion as to the best methods of enforcing the reduction or respective reductions required by such notice,

(v) if in the opinion of the Commission an order or orders should be made by the Minister under the next following section, the area or respective areas to which such order or orders should apply.

9. Section 24. A new sub-section added at the end of the section as follows:—

(3) Every report made by the Commission under the immediately preceding sub-section shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas unless the Minister is of opinion that it is not desirable in the public interest so to do.

10. New section. Before Section 28 a new section inserted as follows:—

28. Whenever a price (retail) order in relation to a particular commodity is in force and an application in the prescribed form and containing the prescribed particulars is made to the Minister by a person carrying on in the area to which such order relates the business of selling retail such commodity to amend such order by increasing the maximum price specified in such order on the ground that the wholesale price of such commodity has increased since the making of such order, the Minister shall, unless he revokes or amends, in accordance with such application, such order, forthwith request the Commission to make an investigation into such application and the Commission shall as soon as may be make such investigation and report to the Minister the result thereof.

Amendment 11:—

Section 30. Before Section 30 a new section inserted as follows:—

30.—(1) Where a person who carries on a business by way of trade or gain sells in the course or as part of such business a scheduled commodity, the price of which exceeds two shillings, such person shall, if so required by the purchaser at the time of sale, then and there deliver to the purchaser a statement in writing setting out in respect of such commodity the following particulars, that is to say:—

(a) a description,

(b) if the sale is by weight or measure, the net weight or measure, as the case may be,

(d) the sum charged.

(2) If any person fails, neglects, or refuses to comply with this section, such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding two pounds.

Mr. McGilligan

What does No. 11 mean?

Mr. Lemass

No. 11 requires that where a customer in a shop demands from the shopkeeper, who has sold to that customer an article which exceeds 2/6 in value, a receipt for the price paid, that the shopkeeper shall furnish that receipt. That section, I am satisfied, will not impose any hardship on any shopkeeper. In fact, I think there is no shopkeeper who would refuse a receipt to a customer who asked for it.

Mr. McGilligan

There is more than the price in it.

Mr. Lemass

Oh, no. The following particulars are given:

(a) a description;

(b) if the sale is by weight or measure, the net weight or measure, as the case may be,

(d) the sum charged.

Mr. McGilligan

That is more than a receipt.

Mr. Lemass

A pound of ham at whatever the price would be would be the information given or the information required by that, or, say, one pair of socks for 1/-.

Mr. McGilligan

Is that what is meant by a description?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

Is that all?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan

These are matters which were intended by the Minister himself to be put into a Weights and Measures Bill.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, that was so at one time. I was disposed, when this matter was discussed in the Seanad and before the amendment was put in I objected to it on that ground that it was bringing into this Bill something which would be more appropriate to a Weights and Measures Bill, and which I hope to have available shortly. It was argued from one point of view that a private customer was entitled to a receipt showing the price paid. This section does not require sale by net weight or something of that kind but it does require a shopkeeper to give a written receipt for the amount paid and indicating what the article sold was.

Amendment agreed to.

The following amendments were agreed to:—

12. Section 32, sub-section (2). Lines 7-9 inclusive deleted and the following words substituted therefor:—"and as is either in the possession of such person or in the power, without incurring unreasonable expense, of such person to obtain."

13. Section 32, sub-section (2). All from and including the word "in" in line 12 deleted down to the end of the sub-section and the following words substituted therefor:—"either in the possession of such seller or in the power, without incurring unreasonable expense, of such seller to obtain."

Amendment 14:—

Section 33, sub-section (1). A new sub-section inserted before the sub-section as follows:—

(1) Where a report is made to the Controller by an inspector on a complaint referred to him for investigation and the Controller, after consideration of such report, is of opinion that such complaint is well founded but is also of opinion that it is desirable in the public interest that an investigation should be held by the Commission into, in case such complaint related to a retail price, the retail prices or, in case such complaint related to a wholesale price, the wholesale prices charged for the commodity to which such complaint relates in the area where the seller mentioned in such complaint carries on business, the Controller shall not take any steps under the next succeeding sub-section but shall refer the matter to the Commission who shall forthwith make an investigation into, in case such complaint related to a retail price, the retail and wholesale prices charged for such commodity in such area (including the area where such seller carries on business) as the Commission thinks fit, or in case such complaint related to a wholesale price, the wholesale prices charged for such commodity in such area (including the area where such seller carries on business) as the Commission thinks fit and such investigation shall be deemed to be a price investigation within the meaning of Part III of this Act, and the provisions of that Part relating to the following matters, that is to say, proceedings consequential on price investigation, price orders, validity of price orders, revocation and amendment of price orders, and offences in relation to price orders, shall apply accordingly.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not understand amendment 14.

Mr. Lemass

This provides that where a complaint is made that an excessive price is charged for some commodity and that complaint is investigated by an inspector sent by the Controller for the purpose and following the receipt of that inspector's report the Controller is satisfied that an excessive price was charged, but the price was, say, no higher than the price generally charged in that area, then instead of proceeding against the individual shopkeeper in respect of whom the complaint was received the Controller brings the matter to the Commission and an investigation of the general level of prices for that commodity in that district is undertaken and no further steps are taken upon the individual complaint which initiated the whole business.

Amendment agreed to.

The following amendments were agreed to:

15. Section 33, sub-section (1). Before the word "Where" in line 20 the words "Subject to the provisions of the immediately preceding sub-section" inserted.

16. Section 33, sub-section (1). The words "twenty-one" deleted in line 41 and the word "ten" substituted therefor.

17. Section 33, sub-section (1). Paragraph (b) deleted and the following new paragraph substituted therefor:—

(b) if such seller complies with the requirements of such notice, the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say —

(i) the Controller shall take no further steps in relation to such complaint (in this paragraph referred to as the investigated complaint),

(ii) if another complaint is made in relation to a sale or offering for sale whether retail or wholesale by such seller on a date previous to the date to which the investigated complaint relates the Controller shall take no proceedings under this Part of this Act in relation to such other complaint.

18. Section 33, sub-section (1). The words "the seller for" deleted in line 65 and the words "persons selling" substituted therefor.

19. Section 33, sub-section (1). The words "such seller for" deleted in line 16 and the words "persons selling" substituted therefor.

20. Section 33, sub-section (2). The words "as to whether unreasonably high retail prices or unreasonably high wholesale prices (as the case may be) are being charged" deleted in lines 56-58 and the following words substituted therefor:—"into, in case such certificate, if made, would relate to a retail price, the retail and wholesale prices charged for such commodity in such area (including the area where such person carries on business) as the Commission think fit, or in case such certificate, if made, would relate to a wholesale price, the wholesale prices charged for such commodity."

21. Section 33, sub-section (2). The words "for such commodity" deleted in line 61.

Amendment 22: Section 33, sub-section (5). A new sub-section inserted before the sub-section as follows:—

(5) No certificate under this section shall state the name of the seller upon whom such certificate is to be served.

Mr. McGilligan

What is the point in keeping this secret?

Mr. Lemass

No. 22 provides that the name of the person in respect of whom the certificate is issued, will appear in the certificate when published in the Press. I agreed to accept this amendment with some reluctance. I do not say that it makes a substantial difference to the operation of the scheme of the Bill. Deputies will remember that the scheme was as follows.

A complaint is made that an excessive price is charged and an investigation is held; as a result of the investigation, the Controller is satisfied that an excessive price was charged and he requires the shopkeeper to refund the amount of the excess and give an undertaking that he will charge a reasonable price in future. If the shopkeeper refuses to give that undertaking, a certificate is then issued. Under the Bill as it stood, it was supposed, that the certificate issued which would state the price charged and what the Controller thought to be a reasonable price would be published bearing the name of the shopkeeper who had charged the excessive price, and, if, subsequent to that, the same shopkeeper charged an excessive price, he became liable to a fine or imprisonment. If the amendment is inserted the certificate published in the Press will be merely a statement that, in that district, a price was charged for this commodity which, in the opinion of the Controller, was excessive and the Controller's opinion as to what a reasonable price is, but the individual shopkeeper's name will not be mentioned, but if, subsequent to the publication of that certificate, that shopkeeper again charges an excessive price for a commodity he becomes liable to the penalties in the Act. It was felt and argued that the publication of the name of the shopkeeper in the certificate was in fact a greater punishment or might, in certain circumstances, be a greater punishment than the fine which applies to the second offence and that it should not be done.

Amendment agreed to.

The following amendments were agreed to:

23. Section 33, sub-section (5). After the word "may" in line 16 the following words inserted:—"and, if he is satisfied that the relevant wholesale price has substantially advanced since such certificate was made, shall."

24. Section 33, sub-section (8). The following words deleted in lines 28-30:—"or by leaving it with a person over sixteen years of age at the premises where such first-mentioned person carries on business."

25. Section 36, sub-section (1). After the word "premises" in line 35 the words "vehicle, stall, booth or other stand" inserted.

26. Section 36, sub-section (3). After the word "than" in line 42 the words "ten days after" inserted.

27. Section 38, sub-section (1). After the word "manufacturing" in line 2 the words "or producing" inserted.

28. Section 38, sub-section (3). After the word "manufactured" in line 14 the words "or produced" inserted.

29. Section 38, sub-section (3). After the word "manufacturers" in line 17 the words "or producers" inserted.

30. Section 39. The following new sub-paragraphs added at the end of the section:—

(iv) in case such commodity is a commodity which if imported into Saorstát Eireann would on importation be liable to a customs duty, the price which, in the opinion of the Commission, an importer would give for such commodity if it were imported direct from the manufacturer or producer thereof and were delivered freight and insurance paid, in bond, at a specified place of importation in Saorstát Eireann;

(v) in case such commodity is a commodity the importation of which into Saorstát Eireann is prohibited or restricted by law, the price which, in the opinion of the Commission, an importer would give for such commodity, if the importation of such commodity were not so prohibited or restricted, and such commodity were imported direct from the manufacturer or producer thereof and were delivered freight and insurance paid at a specified place of importation in Saorstát Eireann.

31. Section 39. A new sub-section added at the end of the section as follows:—

(2) Every manufacturer's price report shall be laid by the Minister before each House of the Oireachtas unless the Minister is of opinion that it is not desirable in the public interest so to do.

32. Section 42, sub-section (1). After the word "manufacturer" in line 12 the words "or producer" inserted.

33. Schedule. The words "Every commodity which is used as food or drink by man, other than drugs or water" inserted between lines 22 and 23.

34. Schedule. The word "food" deleted in line 23.

Amendments reported and agreed to.

Ordered: That a Message be sent to the Seanad accordingly.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was ordered on 7th December that the House should adjourn until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 1st February, 1933.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.45 p.m.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 22 Dec 1932

Control of Prices Bill, 1932—From the Seanad.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Dec 1932