Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Mar 1933

Vol. 46 No. 4

Private Deputies' Business. - Economic Policy of the Executive Council and Farming.

Debate resumed on the following motion by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney:—

That the Dáil is of opinion that the economic policy of the Executive Council has in its results so impoverished a majority of the farmers of this State that they do not possess the capital requisite for the carrying on of their industry and that in consequence the Executive Council should now take the necessary steps to supply to these farmers free of charge an adequate quantity of artificial manures, agricultural seeds and spraying material so as to enable them fully to utilise the resources of their farms.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Flinn)

After the extremely happy evening we have had and all the nice, kind things we have been saying about one another, it does seem a pity to come back to the lugubrious Deputy opposite and to that sad story of disaster piled upon disaster, ruin piled upon ruin, on which he lives. After all, we have only to live with the Deputy at odd intervals, but the House ought sometimes to consider—and consider with sympathy and understanding — the feelings of the Deputy who has to live with his lugubrious self for 24 hours every day, 365 days every year and quite a number of years. "The Dáil is of opinion that the economic policy of the Executive Council has in its results so impoverished a majority of the farmers of this State...." If we come to examine what the policy of this Executive Government is and how it has impoverished the State the only way we can do so, I think, is by comparing it with the policy of those whom the country kicked out at the last general election to prevent their continuing to make the State as prosperous as they did. The Deputy said: "My view is that the best thing you can do to any industry is to make that industry self-reliant," and it is because this Government has tried to make this country and its industries self-reliant that you are asked to say it is impoverishing the country.

Now, here is the basic policy of a Government that never will be a Government again in this House— Cumann na nGaedheal. The policy it preached and the policy which, unfortunately for this country it practised— I will state it as honestly as I can—is that this country could produce nothing but cattle and the droppings of cattle, that it had only one possible market for those cattle and for those droppings of cattle, and that, therefore, that single market was in the position —in relation to people who had only one possible product and only one possible place in which to sell that single perishable product—of putting upon this country in relation to that article any tariff it chose, and that this country would have to pay that tariff. That is the whole policy of Cumann na nGaedheal. If it is true that we can produce only cattle, and that there is only one place in which we can sell them, then it is true that that country can put upon that product any tax it likes and we must pay the whole of that tax up to the bare cost of production. That being the proposition, the Deputies opposite say we should continue in that condition—that we should continue in the condition in which we can only produce one product for one market, which market is in a position to compel us to take any price it chooses for it. I want you to try and co-ordinate that statement with this one: "My view is that the best thing you can do to any industry is to make that industry self-reliant." Ireland was to be made self-reliant by relying on one single product in one single market, which, according to the gentlemen opposite, could compel us to take for that product any price it chose. I want some Cumann na nGaedheal Deputy to face that proposition and tell us where it is wrong. It is the proposition they have been putting to the country——

Mr. Keating

Might I ask you a question?

Mr. Flinn

No, you may not. I do not give way to the Deputy.

Mr. Keating

What can we produce that we never did before? If we cannot produce stock, what can we produce? What alternative have we?

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy may not know that while a Deputy is on his feet in the House he is in possession of the House unless he chooses to give way.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy does know, and knows what he is talking about.

Mr. Flinn

There is no one who loves interruptions more than I do. There is no one who loves questions more than I do.

Mr. Keating

Tell us where we will get another market or tell us any alternative thing we can produce.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy is now accepting the proposition.

Mr. Keating

For God's sake, do not talk through your hat. What can we produce? You have a market for nothing only your live stock.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy sit down.

Mr. Keating

I want to talk to his Excellency. I cannot hear a man talking on what he knows nothing about.

Mr. O'Leary

We have to make our living by the land——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputies will get time to make statements and there is no good in interfering in that fashion.

Mr. Keating

Was he not asking for it?

Mr. Kehoe

Might I ask on a point of order, is not Deputy Flinn in possession and when he is in possession he cannot be asked a question?

Mr. Belton

Tell us your alternative market.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy opposite, whose name unfortunately I do not know——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Keating.

Mr. Flinn

Deputy Keating was perfectly correct when he said I was looking for it. I was looking for it and I got it.

Mr. Keating

Will you give an answer?

Mr. Flinn

I got from Cumann na nGaedheal a declaration that they know of nothing else we can do but produce cattle for a single market which can pay to us whatever price it likes for that article.

Mr. O'Leary

Why give subsidies then?

Mr. Flinn

You are accepting it also. Another Deputy accepts it. Is there any Deputy on the Cumann na nGaedheal Benches who denies it? I said I was looking for it.

Mr. Keating

If we lose that market what have we?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary must be allowed to speak. Will the Deputy sit down?

Mr. Keating

He asked for it. I must give it to him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You can talk to the House when the Parliamentary Secretary is finished. I will allow no further interruptions of this nature.

Mr. Flinn

When I first started I tried to define as fairly as I could the policy of Cumann na nGaedheal. I did it so fairly that two Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies have risen in their places and endorsed it, and no member on the Cumann na nGaedheal Benches is prepared to deny it. I think I must be a very fair exponent, but how does that policy fit in with "my view is that the best thing you can do to any industry is to make that industry self-reliant"? What are you making it "self-reliant" on? Self-reliant on whatever price a single customer in absolute control of a single market may offer to you? Is that the definition of self-reliance by the Deputy?

Mr. Brennan

It is better than no customer.

Mr. Flinn

All right; it is better than none! Again I am getting exactly what I am looking for. I am prepared to write down on a piece of paper now ten interruptions I want to get, and I will bet five pounds that I will get every one of them from Cumann na nGaedheal before I have finished.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Not if the Chair can stop it.

Mr. Flinn

The general idea which is propagated among ignorant people by people who are either dishonest or more ignorant than those whom they are trying to instruct is that in dealing with a market in which you have a single customer only for one perishable product you have an unlimited and a valuable market.... Yes, Cumann na nGaedheal denies that.

Mr. Belton

And it is only the one competition in the British market.

Mr. Flinn

Competition was another interruption I wanted. You have a very valuable and a very eager market for your produce. Now your produce is principally cattle. Three-quarters of the land of Ireland is under cattle, and food for cattle, and it is the market for the products of that three-quarters of your land that you are concerned with and which we are imperilling after impoverishing the prosperous farmers. We come now to competition. The competition in that market is not Canadian beef, and it is not Australian beef. It is chilled meat. I have had the misfortune, or fortune, to live for a good part of every year in England and in Ireland. I have seen chilled beef grow up from a very weak, puerile and puny infancy into a very healthy manhood and into the position of being a dangerous competitor, on its merits, with home-killed meat. There was a time when to put upon your table frozen meat was an outrage upon yourself and an insult to your guest.

Mr. Belton

On a point of order, might I ask what the Parliamentary Secretary is talking to. What is the motion? Is it anything about chilled meat? We do not want a music-hall turn. We want to get down to business. What is the motion?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary is in order.

Mr. Flinn

I have stated that I have watched this puny and delicate infant of frozen meat grow up into a healthy, dangerous and antagonistic competitor in the market in England. I want you to understand exactly what I mean. As I told you, there was a time when the meat which was in competition with our home-killed meat—that was Irish meat which was exported—was frozen and it looked frozen. If it looked like anything it had no flavour and in fact it looked like nothing at all. That was not the original state, that was when it was frozen. It was crudely and roughly frozen just when newly hung. It was brought over in ships whose technical equipment was inferior. The cells of the meat were all broken up and certainly it was a ghastly looking performance. Now as the years have gone on, the technical equipment and the technical knowledge behind preserved meat improved enormously and the result is that there is coming into England at the present moment chilled beef in an extremely good condition. The result has been that in my memory the proportion of chilled meat which went into consumption in England has risen from 30 to 40 per cent.; 55 to 63 per cent. and 73 to 84½ per cent. of the total consumption of meat in England at the present moment. In other words, of that totally splendid market on which you were to rely, and to the service of which you were to consecrate in perpetuity the use of three-quarters of the whole of Irish land represents not the unlimited market of which you spoke but 15½ per cent. to-day of that market.

Mr. Belton

What do you propose to do with Irish land?

Mr. Flinn

I propose to continue my speech without the help of the Deputy.

Mr. Belton

I happen to know something about the subject and you do not.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy does not know enough about debating in this House to hold his own tongue.

Mr. Belton

I know something about agriculture and I did not learn it in Liverpool. I learned it behind a plough, not a fish barrel.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton will have an opportunity of explaining this later in his speech, not by interruption. The Chair is the judge of the relevancy of matters.

Mr. Flinn

My speech is an occasional oasis in a desert of interruption. Fifteen-and-a-half per cent. of that market! What is the stuff we are competing with and what is its price? Ask any housekeeper to check this. When Irish beef looks beautifully red and the fat looks beautifully white and if you were a cannibal you would go and eat it right away, it is not fit for eating. It has got to be hung until the fat gets a bit yellow and the flesh gets a bit brown. No housekeeper would take meat home in the condition in which I have previously spoken of it for the purpose of cooking unless she wanted to hang it.

Mr. Belton

That is fish you are talking about.

Mr. Flinn

Chilled meat when it is perfectly red, when its fat is perfectly white, when it looks thoroughly appetising because it has been previously hung, is in perfect condition to be taken home and put into the pot. That is why it appeals to the consumer. The consumer can go into the shop and buy the stuff and take it away and cook it. There was a time when they used to take that stuff from out under the counter or from the back of the shop. Now they hang it up because it will stand hanging up and can be sold upon its merits. Look at it from the point of view of the butcher. A butcher can get any quantity of that stuff out of stores at any time without notice for any emergency. Instead of buying the stuff which he has got to hang he has got to take the whole of the carcase. It is more economical to him. That is the butcher's side and that is why it is going ahead on its merits. There is one other side. It depends upon the shop you buy it at. It costs 4d. to 6d. a lb., an average of 5d. per lb. The unlimited market, the market that is better than none, the unlimited market for which you are to use three-quarters of your Irish land in perpetuity on a diminishing 15½ per cent. of a total British consumption of meat sold in competition at an average price of 5d. per lb.! Is that what you are going to keep three-quarters of your Irish land in perpetuity for—to maintain your hold upon a diminishing fraction of the British market, in competition with meat which is being sold against you on its merits at 5d. per lb.? Now, Cumann na nGaedheal!

My view is that the best thing to do with any industry is to make that industry self-reliant, not to make it dependent in perpetuity on sending a single product to a single market where it will be met in competition with stuff which has been sold against it on its merits at 5d. per lb. It is because we have turned our backs on that, that we have, in the words of the Deputy, adopted an economic policy which has impoverished the majority of the farmers. What sort of a condition would the farmers be in if they had no objective in future but to live for and by a diminishing market under that control? Then another thing that we have done is, of course, that we have wiped out the Irish butter industry. Blood is thicker than water and some heads are thicker than blood. (Interruption.) Some are so thick that their mouths cannot stay quiet.

Mr. Belton

Even Parliamentary Secretaries' heads.

Mr. Flinn

That is solid from there to there. Blood is thicker than water, and because we have quarrelled with the benevolence of John Bull in a single and sacred market——

Mr. Keating

Are you not one of John Bull's calves?

Mr. Flinn

I am one of John Bull's cows, almost an elephant—a whole zoo. We have lost that splendid market for butter. There is another country which has not quarrelled with John Bull, a very loyal and very friendly and very loving member of the Commonwealth of Nations. It is called Australia. On a certain day quite recently—this represents broadly the facts up to the present—Danish butter was selling on the English market at 112/-. Australia, because blood is thicker than water, and because John Bull loved her as a daughter, was selling it at 78/-.

Mr. Belton

Date please.

Mr. Flinn

I will give it later. That is only the beginning of the test. It costs 10/- to bring that 78/- butter to England; that is 68/- for Australia. It cost 6/6, call it 7/- for incidentals. I am working from accurate invoices. That left 61/-. It costs £1 here to manufacture butter. We are taking the figure of 14/- for Australia. Take that off, and it costs 47/-. That was what the Australian farmer was getting for his butter—the blood-thicker-than-water crowd, the daughter that England loved. At the same time, the Irish farmer is getting 117/- —a cruel outrage upon all farmers.

Mr. Belton

On a point of information. Is the Irish farmer getting 117/- in the British market?

Mr. Flinn

He was getting 117/-, wherever he got it.

Mr. Belton

He was getting it here while paying it out of the other pocket.

Mr. Flinn

Remember these distressed farmers were being wiped out——

Mr. Belton

Exactly—they are.

Mr. Flinn

And the majority of them impoverished.

A Deputy

And the fish merchants are being subsidised.

Mr. Keating

We got £4 10s., and it cost the merchant £6. That is how you love John Bull.

Mr. Flinn

Let us go a little further. The Deputy wants to know did we get anything on the English market.

Mr. Belton

Give us a common basis of comparison.

Mr. Flinn

Do not let me interrupt you in any way.

Mr. Belton

I ask you what value you put upon the 2,000 tons of Irish butter that is at this moment in cold storage.

Mr. Smith

The farmers would not send you in here, anyhow. You had to go to the City of Dublin.

Mr. Belton

You said you would go to America if the Fianna Fáil Party came into the Dáil, but you did not go. You came in here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton must sit down.

Mr. Belton

These gentlemen should not be so ungrateful to the Deputy who brought them in here—to the hand that fed them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton will have to control himself while the debate is going on and so will other Deputies.

Mr. Belton

Apply that all round.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have applied it all round. The Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to make his speech; so is Deputy Belton, and so is every other Deputy. These unseemly interruptions will have to cease. I am cautioning Deputies on that point now.

Mr. Flinn

Now we are coming to the question of what happens in the English market, and we are not even going to put butter against the lifeblood of the dearest of England's sons. An Irish manufacturer the other day sold a certain number of tons of Irish-made margarine to a firm in England. Due to the fact that, of course, we were bad friends with them, and they did not like us, and all the rest of it, that margarine was sold over the counter in that English shop at 10d. per lb. That man also bought some Australian butter—Australian best creamery butter—and because he loved Australia he sold that best Australian creamery butter over the counter at 9d. per lb. And you say that what we were doing by our policy was that we were impoverishing the majority of the farmers of this State! Another criminal thing we did was that we maintained the price of barley at from 14/- to 14/6 a barrel. The world price was 10/- to 10/6. Are there any farmers complaining of the miserable way in which we impoverished them by doing that? Let us take rates for a moment. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney is deeply interested in the small holder. We provided this year £250,000 towards the derating of small holders. Then, possibly, the Centre Party does not represent the small holder.

Mr. Curran

Yes, we do.

Mr. Flinn

In which way? Now we know they do represent them. We have heard a thousand times in this House that eighty per cent. of the total production in this country was by farmers; that eighty per cent. of the people were farmers. The Deputy represents eight per cent. of this House.

Mr. MacDermot

Is this relevant to the motion?

Mr. Flinn

It is relevant to a motion which says that the farmers have been impoverished. It is relevant to the question of the amount of authority that will be behind any vote given by the Centre Party in favour of this motion.

Mr. MacDermot

The Parliamentary Secretary might wait to hear what is said.

Mr. Flinn

What is the use? That is the most absurd statement I heard yet.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am trying to wait to hear what the Parliamentary Secretary has to say on the relevancy of it.

Mr. Flinn

Nothing you will hear from me will be irrelevant, if you, sir, will permit me to say so. Why should I wait for the speech of the Deputy to see if it had any relation to this question when, up to the present, he has never conveyed an indication as to how he would vote. The Deputy always starts on the principle of "so-and-so" and "but," as the only thing that matters in the whole speech——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In this motion.

Mr. Flinn

The reason why I am dealing with the question of what you might call the responsibility of what is called the Centre Party is because they are going to take part in the debate, and because their vote is going to be used. If that is irrelevancy we will leave it out. At any rate, what I am concerned with is that it is perfectly evident, in denying the proposition that they claim to speak for the farmers, when they are only eight per cent. of this House, that somebody else must represent the other 72 per cent. On behalf of the 72 per cent.—because with an absolute majority of the seats in the Dáil, and an absolute majority of the votes cast at the election—we are entitled to speak for the whole of the country on behalf of the farmers, little and big. We repudiate any claim of the so-called Centre Party.

Mr. MacDermot

Once again may I ask is this in order, or anywhere near in order?

Mr. Flinn

It is very awkward. We provided £250,000 for the derating of smallholders whom we represent, and whom the Deputy and his Party do not represent. That crippled the farmers horribly, not to have to pay £250,000 this year! That was the crippling indignity put upon them. I grant that it destroyed their self-respect! That was not the only outrage we performed upon them. We gave them a moratorium on annuities, worth, I am informed, £4,000,000 on the November, 1932, gale and on the May and June gales. It was in the process of keeping in our possession, for the benefit of the farmers, the money which we were able to refund to them on this annuity moratorium, that we indulged in this criminal economic policy which, as they say, crippled the farmers. Where were we wrong in that? Here was the position. We were asked to pay out of the revenue of this country, and out of its production, a larger amount of tribute to another country than any other country has ever been asked to pay to a foreign country as a result of war or otherwise. That was the position. I am leaving out altogether the question whether that tribute was due or undue. These are the facts. Is anybody denying that? Is anybody denying absolutely the size of the sum relative to our resources?

Mr. Belton

It took you a long time to find out.

Mr. Flinn

Is anyone denying the proposition that we were asked to pay a tribute larger than any other country was asked to pay?

Mr. Keating

We were not asked to pay anything more than our agreement.

Mr. Flinn

No one denies the proposition.

Mr. MacDermot

Is the Parliamentary Secretary entitled to invite interruptions, and then, if he does not get them, to deny the statement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot control the Parliamentary Secretary's methods of delivering his speech, so long as they are relevant. That is the sole concern of the Chair.

Mr. MacDermot

I just wish to draw attention to the fact that this auctioneer's manner does not conduce to the conduct of good order.

Mr. Flinn

This auctioneer's manner! Who is up for sale in the auctioneer's manner?

Mr. Keating

The Free State!

Mr. Belton

The Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Keating

The country!

Mr. Flinn

Yes. This country was asked to pay a tribute greater than any other country was asked to pay.

Mr. Keating

What has it been asked to pay up to the present?

Mr. Flinn

And these gentlemen on the opposite benches——

Mr. Keating

The Parliamentary Secretary is asking for and he is getting it.

Mr. Flinn

Starting with that proposition, how can we have in fact impoverished the majority of the farmers of the State by attempting to keep that money in this country, legally or illegally, rightly or wrongly?

Mr. Belton

You do not keep it at home, but you paid out twenty-one millions instead.

Mr. Keating

Does the Parliamentary Secretary want to know how the State has been impoverished by the economic war? It was done by getting 12/- for every pound's worth of produce.

Mr. Belton

It has cost the country twenty-one and a half millions.

Mr. Flinn

I shall now deal with the question whether or not the money was due. We cannot have an impoverished State by keeping it, whether it was due or undue. Was it due?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Parliamentary Secretary show me the relevancy of that point?

Mr. Flinn

It arises in this way. The economic policy of the Executive was to keep in this country annuities on land previously paid away and to take such measures of taxation and otherwise as would enable them to do so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is the policy of the Government.

Mr. Flinn

The economic policy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How the Parliamentary Secretary can discuss the rights and wrongs of that action I cannot understand.

Mr. Flinn

My point is that the economic policy of the Government, both in object and method, was to keep the annuities. The suggestion is that in attempting to carry out that policy we did adopt economic expedients which caused certain reactions, which, according to the Deputies opposite, impoverished the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Obviously, we cannot discuss whether the Government was right or wrong in withholding the annuities. We cannot discuss whether they have law or justice on their side.

Mr. Flinn

I am not going to discuss the question of whether they were right or wrong in that matter. I am simply dealing with the question of whether our particular method of dealing with the thing has aggravated that particular difficulty. If, for instance, we had done it in some way which caused legitimate resentment in the minds of reasonable people, then we might be held responsible for the economic consequences even though they were unjust, individually, on the part of our opponents. We have contended that this money was not due. Did we do anything, as part of our economic policy, which legitimately brought upon us the counteraction in the way of specially restrictive tariffs? I suggest that we did not. What we did was that we said, "Here is a debt which a debtor claims from us. We do not believe that debt to be due, but we are prepared to go into an impartial international court and have that court decide whether or not it is due." Did we, in taking up that attitude, do something of such an unreasonable character that anything that was harmful in the action which was taken against us is our responsibility? I suggest that we did not.

What was the answer to that? Was the answer to that "Yes, we will go into an international court and we will have this question decided on these grounds"? The answer was " No, we will force you to pay that money. Because we have the stranglehold that Cumann na nGaedheal says we have on you, because we are your single market for a single perishable product, we are in a position to violate every economic law in relation to you, and we are in a position to put upon you a tariff which you must pay and not the consumer." We impoverished the country because we said we would pay our due and legal debts when the dueness and legality of those debts were ascertained. We have impoverished the country because people who would not go into a court of law to have that issue decided, said: "Instead of that, we will take you by the throat and, with the help and assistance of Cumann na nGaedheal, we will strangle it out of you.""The one bright spot," says Jimmy Thomas, "in the whole position is the faithfulness of Mr. Cosgrave and his Party." We have impoverished the country because we have said that we will not give way to a bully on any and every demand he makes. What sort of an impoverishment of this country would we have produced if we had given way on what we believed to be an illegal demand to a threat of force? What other demand down to your trousers' buttons—it is better to get it in some form you will understand—could you have denied if you had given way on this demand—to give way to force what you denied to justice? Is that the impoverishment of this country that the economic policy of this Government has shown? Does the Deputy suggest that we should reverse that policy? Does he suggest that we should pay the money now? What authority has he to suggest it— what authority in this House or what authority outside this House?

For ten months they fooled themselves and tried to fool the British and tried to fool the world into the idea that they had got, or could get, that authority from the Irish people to turn their backs on the orders the Irish people gave in the General Election ten months ago. That was the only toad in the hole that Jimmy had. The only card he had up his sleeve was the story that was being told to him, that was being whispered to him and that was going to be blazoned to him: "Give the people a chance. Oh, give them a chance and they will take Cumann na nGaedheal back into their arms again," and that they were hungry to live for another ten years under that régime. At the end of that period poor old Jimmy had to say: "I think you are a fool, Cumann na nGaedheal, and it is a bigger fool I have been to be listening to you." For ten whole months they were told that the people did not mean what they said when they told us to retain the annuities. For ten whole months they were being told that the people of Ireland had weak knees and would break under any pressure they put on. For ten whole months they were being told by Cumann na nGaedheal, that one bright spot, in the horizon of British interference in this country, that if only they would put a little more pressure on, as soon as their people had an opportunity at a general election they would throw us out because we had impoverished the majority of the farmers of the State. By what authority now do they say, by the authority of what farmers do they say, that the people have been impoverished?

Mr. D. O'Leary

The National Farmers' League, Thomas O'Donnell presiding over it.

Mr. Flinn

If the Deputy cannot be intelligent he might at least be articulate.

Mr. O'Leary

I have the Cork accent, anyway.

Mr. Flinn

By what authority does the Deputy bring forward this motion after a general election in which he has been repudiated by the people?

Mr. Belton

By intimidation, by personation.

Mr. Flinn

Oh, I see. Deputy Belton has intimidated Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney into bringing forward this motion.

Mr. Belton

By framing, by railway subsidy bribes and by two millions of our money handed out.

Mr. Flinn

By two millions of Deputy Belton's money?

Mr. Belton

Of our money. It is very little that the Parliamentary Secretary has handed out and very little of his life he has invested in the struggle in this country. He flew over here when it was safe.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

Are you able to stop that fellow?

Mr. Flinn

I would not try. A little comic relief is good even in a debating society. Here is the next thing our young friend says to brighten us up:—

Nobody at the present moment can question the truth of the proposition that agriculture is reeling under the effects of a blow more heavy than it has received in the lifetime of a generation.

He goes on further and says that it has been the worst in human memory. Now, human memory goes back to the flood. It at least includes the famine, the plan of campaign days, the emergency men and it includes the unroofing of 250,000 homes in Munster alone by the eviction gang. Yet the Deputy says it is the worst in human memory. It shows really what kind of witness he is. That is what they want, and that is what they are desperately disappointed to find it is not. The harvest went wrong. It was a wrong kind of harvest. The one bright spot of Cumann na nGaedheal was not brightened by the black spot of a bad harvest. If they had got a black harvest and Jimmy Thomas's taxes all thrown together they might have hoped to break the back, the courage and the determination of the Irish farmer with impunity, but the harvest went wrong. Providence voted Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Keating

Did the farmer?

Mr. Flinn

Yes, evidently.

Mr. Keating

Not in my constituency.

Mr. Flinn

Seventy-seven. An absolute majority of all the Deputies in this House and an absolute majority of the whole polled electorate of this country.

Mr. Keating

Not of the farmers in the County Wexford.

Mr. Belton

Only 76, to be accurate.

Mr. Flinn

Not 77—78. Wait for the next by-election.

Mr. Keating

Are you thinking of dying?

Mr. Flinn

The next thing that the Deputy said was that he hoped the Government would now take all the steps which will avoid, as far as they are avoidable, the consequences of the policy which they have pursued. I want the House to analyse that proposition. The Free State has returned in two successive general elections a Government. That Government has a policy which it expounded in the first general election and got a mandate for. It repeated it in the second general election and got an increased mandate for that policy. What does the Deputy think of the intelligence of the people of the Free State who have returned the Government which he asks to take steps to prevent the logical consequences of the policy that the country sent them back to carry out. For instance we have set up tariffs for the purpose of producing industries, but the Deputy wants us to take such steps as far as——

Mr. Keating

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question?

Mr. Flinn

I would rather the Deputy did not.

Mr. Keating

Is it the policy of the Minister to encourage a Manchester firm to open a polish factory here in which they only employ four women at 6/- a week?

Mr. Flinn

Some one talked about irrelevancies to-night. The purpose of imposing tariffs is to create industries. The Deputy asks us now to take steps which will avoid, as far as they are avoidable, the consequences of the policy of tariffs which we set up. Are we to do something now to prevent tariffs starting industries?

Mr. Keating

You have killed industries.

Mr. Flinn

We started industries for the purpose of producing employment. Does the Deputy want us to take such steps as will prevent the industries which we have set up creating employment?

Mr. Belton

And destroy purchasing power.

Mr. Keating

What is the staple industry in the Free State?

Mr. Flinn

—I think it is talk on the bench opposite—gas manufacture.

Mr. Keating

No, farming is and you are killing it.

Mr. Flinn

Lest the humorous contributions of the Deputy might lighten the heavy hearts of the House and prevent them facing up to their responsibilities, I shall read a little more of this lugubrious speech. He said, "There will be—there must be——

Mr. Keating

An accounting day for all this.

Mr. Flinn

——suffering. There is suffering now. There must be suffering in the future far greater than the suffering that there is now." I think that is about the most cheerful statement I have heard for a long time. Cannot these people sometimes smile and have some gladness in their hearts? Must they always look forward to a bad harvest mentally and spiritually? Must they always be hoping that some disaster will happen which will bring them back into power? Can they not imagine a prosperous, happy Ireland that would return them to power? Can they not possibly imagine a country teeming with industries, with all the land tilled on which hundreds of thousands of people were employed would turn away from the foolish obsessions of Fianna Fáil and put them into power again? Must they always have the poor mouth? Jeremiahs! Oh, miserable star? Is there no happiness in their souls at all? Can they not see the sunlight or does it turn green, yellow or blue—a terrible jaundiced thing when they see it?

Surely they ought to wake up to the fact that this is a beautiful and fertile country; that it has an intelligent people who are capable of returning at two general elections a perfectly sound and reasonable Government. Can they not begin to hope that instead of this country being impoverished by keeping at home this nation's ransom it will be enriched. Can they not begin to hope that, by a policy devoted to the purpose of producing industries, people will be employed, and that being employed will be made happy and prosperous? Can they not put a little assistance behind those who are trying to do the job to enable them to do it? They can make it very much easier for us to keep permanently in this country without any cost to ourselves this nation's ransom which to-day we hold against all comers. Can they not try to help us instead of simply throwing scorn and cold and dirty water on every suggestion of a new enterprise that is started? Can they not say this is an industry of ours; these are products of our own land; let us go out and buy and wear them and encourage them and have a little hopefulness in the matter? It is simply and solely because they know that they are waiting here redundant on the stage. What hope have they? I have given the House the figures before. After ten years' experience of a Cumann na nGaedheal Government when 250,000 of our young men and women—Fianna Fail voters—were exported we have raised our vote from 250,000 to 690,000. We have raised our representation from 33 to 44, to 57, to 72, and now to 77. What hope have they? All they can do is just wait like an old man for the opening of the grave.

I am quite serious. Is there any man upon those Front Benches over there who can sit there and think that there is any human prospect that his position relative to the electorate of this country is going to improve? Day after day they are stumbling down the hill, and they have got to wait—think of it—they have got to wait for five whole years and to slowly die in face of the people. As to their policy, they have got nothing to fear from their so-called colleagues. The Centre Party is even——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not discussing Cumann na nGaedheal policy. We are discussing the Government policy.

Mr. Keating

The man is full of himself.

Mr. Flinn

We are faced with this lugubrious statement of sadness and defeat. We are asking them to smile a little, to hope a little, and to help a little, and if they do so the result will be that, at their dying day they will be able to make their soul in a little more peace than they would otherwise be able to do. Then, at any rate, when they do fade off the scene, we may be able to throw some sort of flowers, even if it is only flowers of sulphur over their political grave, instead of their fading away into the desert of oblivion that they deserve.

Mr. Keating

You are a plucky young fellow.

Mr. Brennan

Fianna Fáil have done many foolish things but, to my mind, the most foolish thing they have done was to put up Deputy Flinn to speak on this matter. He has given us certainly a very good lecture on how to choose meat as between fresh meat and frozen meat. He seems to be an authority or an expert on this matter. He may have perhaps some considerable experience as a mess manager, but certainly he has none as an agriculturist. He reminds me very much of the old story, which I thought was a fable but apparently it was not—"Nero fiddled while Rome burned." I never saw such an illustration of that as I saw to-night from Deputy Flinn. He knows perfectly well—as well as anybody in this House—that there has been an impoverishment of the people in this State. Only that he knows that he would not be so anxious to have his relief schemes started all over the country amongst the farmers. That is evidence to himself that there has been impoverishment throughout the country. The increase in unemployment and the increase in home relief—what do they indicate? Do they indicate prosperity? Deputy Flinn is as well aware of what they indicate as I am, or as any other member of the House is aware, and there is no use in throwing a cloud or a mist or a smoke screen about it. The country has become impoverished, from whatever reason it may be, and there is no use in his trying to shelve that fact at all.

I leave aside altogether the studied insults of Deputy Flinn. They are really beneath contempt; but, after all, when a Parliamentary Secretary stands up to address the House, even on a subject that he knows nothing about, he ought to have the common decency to respect other people's views; but I suppose that is too much to expect from him. He has asked what hope have the Cumann na nGaedheal Party? Well, I certainly say that, if the mentality of Deputy Flinn is going to rule for any length of time in this country, we have absolutely no hope. He asks us to have some gladness of heart. Well, I should like to know what we can be glad about. I happen to be chairman of a county council for a considerable number of years. I know the rush that there has been latterly, particularly since Fianna Fáil came into power, by the small farmers and even by the middle-class farmers to get work from the county council and from Deputy Flinn's own body, the Board of Works.

Still, Deputy Flinn tries to say that there is no impoverishment in this State at all. Is it not a wonder that some agriculturist on the Fianna Fáil Benches would not set himself out to consider the pros and cons, to consider the kernel of the question which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney has put down for consideration, that is, the provision of artificial manures and seeds for the farmers? Whether their present state has been caused by Fianna Fáil or by anybody else, let us leave out political capital and come down and consider what is the situation in the country at the present time and whether there is any necessity whatever for Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's motion. There is no doubt, as in the statement Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney has made, that it is only too obvious that in addition to what farmers have lost by the sale of their stock, due to any cause you like, their credit has gone down also by at least 40 per cent. It has gone down to that extent in the shops and stores and Fianna Fáil knows that. Let us consider this thing apart altogether from the political capital which Deputy Flinn makes out. He may be very good at amusing his own back benchers, but it is no amusement at all to the farmers who have not yet paid their accounts for last year's manures and who, as a result, will not be able to get manures for the coming season. That is the position, and apart altogether from Deputy Flinn's dramatic——

Mr. Flinn

On a point of order, may I call the Deputy's attention to the fact that the motion reads:—"That the Dáil is of opinion that the economic policy of the Executive Councli has in its results so impoverished a majority of the farmers..." That is the one special object—the accusation that we are responsible.

Mr. Brennan

And the question is whether the Government ought or ought not to come to the rescue.

Mr. Flinn

Are we responsible? That is the question.

Mr. MacDermot

Surely, it is in order to discuss the question of whether we are impoverished or not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is quite in order. I have not interfered with him.

Mr. Brennan

I am not at all one who would advocate spoon-feeding the farmers. I did not intend to speak on this motion at all, but when the Government Party puts up Parliamentary Secretary Flinn to make cynical jokes for the amusement of his own Party without considering the essential thing at all, which is to make provision of seeds and artificial manures for the farmers who cannot provide them, I feel obliged to express my opinion. Last year, when Fianna Fáil came into power, as the Minister for Agriculture, I am sure, will bear testimony to, the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Local Government were very anxious to compel county councils, or at least to ask or induce them in some shape or form, to make provision for seeds for poor farmers. Perhaps it was required. If that was necessary last year I wonder is it not three-fold necessary this year?

Does the Parliamentary Secretary try to establish in this House that because people have voted him into power, because they have twice voted him into power, he can consequently turn his back upon them and let them suffer on? Apparently that is Deputy Flinn's mentality. "They have returned us twice; consequently we need not heed them." Is that the mentality? I should like the Fianna Fáil Deputies instead of trying to make Party capital out of a thing like this, instead of trying to say to Cumann na nGaedheal and other Parties—"You went to the electorate and they did not return you; they returned us"—to come down to hard facts and see if there is anything in the motion. Deputy Flinn has pinned his faith on a good harvest. I hope we shall have a good harvest, and I hope Deputy Flinn and other Fianna Fáil Deputies will not try to translate my fears of a bad harvest into hopes of a bad harvest as Deputy Flinn tried to do with the speech of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney the other evening.

I should like to know what steps my colleague Deputy Boland, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, has taken to find out the actual situation in the Ballyfarnon-Dysart district, where he got such strong support at the elections. The situation there, I have been told the week before last, is this. It is a rural district and there is only one large store in the district. That store is owned by people called Williams, who, I understand, are great admirers of the Fianna Fáil Party. Mr. Williams has informed the people that he is going to stock no manures this year because they did not pay for last year's manures yet. He has also instructed his assistants to cut down several people's credit by at least one-third. There is a situation to be faced. That is what Deputy Flinn and the Fianna Fáil Party ought to sit down and consider. I hope we shall have a good harvest this year. I earnestly hope we shall have a good harvest because, unlike Deputy Flinn, I am a farmer. I am one of the people who plough and one of the people who have to look forward to the harvest for a crop. Incidentally I am one of the people who grow wheat.

Mr. Belton

And you do not have to sow it twice.

Mr. Brennan

No. We had an abnormally good harvest last year. I happened a few days ago to be at a fair down in Roscommon. At that fair three-fourths of the cattle were sold and one-fourth was returned unsold. The three-fourths sold were sold as a result of hand feeding with roots and grain. That was because of the good harvest. If we had a bad harvest I wonder what kind of fair we would have had in Roscommon the other day? Deputy Flinn has also talked about the amount of land we have for feeding stock. I should like to remind Deputy Flinn that the Minister for Agriculture recently woke up and made this statement, which is obvious to any agriculturist who has studied agriculture in any country in the world. He stated that the increased tillage here will mean increased live stock. What does Deputy Flinn propose doing with them, if you get that increased tillage with increased live stock? These are the facts which I should like Fianna Fáil to face up to.

I do not propose to lecture Deputy Flinn or any other person, but I certainly say that a situation exists in this country, largely as a result of Government policy, which calls for the attention of the Government, that is, with regard to supplying manures for the farmers. If the farmers do not get manures this year, and they are not going to get them in the south of my county because Mr. Williams, a great admirer of the Fianna Fáil Party, says he will not stock them, what are they going to do next harvest? How much poorer will the country be next harvest if the farmers are not supplied with artificial manures now? These are the things to which I should like the Fianna Fáil Party to direct their attention. Do not mind the highfalutin' nonsense of the Parliamentary Secretary. Do not mind the studied insults he wants to cast at people on these benches. Let him face the hard facts and let him tell us what provision is going to be made for the farmers who cannot afford to pay for these manures out of their own pockets while the shopkeepers will not give them credit because they have not paid in many cases for last year's manures yet.

Mr. McGovern

The Parliamentary Secretary has not given any indication of what he proposes to do for those small farmers who, he says, are represented by himself and his Party. The Parliamentary Secretary merely tries to make sport of the Opposition. He tries to make sport of the Centre Party, tries to make sport of the Dáil and to make sport of the sufferings of the small farmers down the country. He tries to make sport out of everything. He tries to establish that because his Party have been elected as the Government of the country they have no responsibility, nothing to do with the sufferings of the farmers, and that they have got a mandate for taking up that position. He says that the country must be self-supporting and that the country does not want to produce cattle, but the country cannot do without cattle. Milk is necessary for both town and country and if the farmers are to have cows they must have calves. If they have calves they will have store cattle which are very difficult to sell nowadays and if they are going to have beef to sell they must have something to feed these cattle. If they sell them as stores, sell them for export, they have to meet a great loss in tariffs.

Notwithstanding what the Parliamentary Secretary says in belittling the British market, although we are losing 40 per cent. of the price through tariffs, ten per cent. in preferences to which we would be entitled, and an additional ten per cent. in goodwill, that is, although we lose a total of 60 per cent. of the price which in normal circumstances we would be getting, that market is much better than any market in the world. It is still 20 per cent better than the Belgian market. The Parliamentary Secretary says that Irish beef has to compete with frozen meat at 5d. per lb. Irish beef is able successfully to compete with that frozen meat at 5d. per lb., but he did not tell the Dáil that Irish beef is being sold at 5d. per lb. Irish beef, if it got fair play, could command a decent price on the British market. Apparently the policy of the Parliamentary Secretary and his Party is to compel the farmers to make all the sacrifices. They claim that they got a mandate for that, but I question that mandate. At the election which we had about a year ago they promised the farmers everything, but they gave them nothing. On the contrary, they took what they had from them. They promised a reduction in expenditure of a couple of millions, but instead they have increased expenditure by three or four millions. They promised derating of land, but they have gone back entirely on that now. They made other promises, but they went back on them this year, and they claim to have got a mandate to go on with that policy. The Government had two policies at the last general election. One I will describe as their public policy, and the other was the policy put before the people by the whisperers. The whisperers went round and stated that they had got a mandate and they compelled the tenants to make sacrifices. We asked why did not the Government keep the promises they made last year, and the whisperers answered: "We could not keep our promises last year because Deputy Norton had the screw upon us and was tightening the screw.""You must now," the whisperers said to the farmers, "give us a majority over Norton and we will carry out our promises." But we now see what the Government are going to do from the answer of the Parliamentary Secretary to those who suggested that seeds and manure should be provided for the small farmers whom the Government claim to represent.

How are the farmers to grow crops if they have not the proper seed and manure? The Government well know that the small farmers are not in a position themselves to procure these things. They are merely trying to earn a few shillings to keep their wives and children from starving. There is no use in hoping for better times and better harvests under such circumstances. There is no use in people lecturing the farmers and shouting to them to "stick to the trenches" and comforting them with the assurance, "We are making a great fight." Who else may we ask are making sacrifices? These people say to the farmers, "You can go back and live as your grandfathers lived 200 years ago and you can afford to suffer the privations that they did; they were great men and made such sacrifices as you are making now." But at that time gentlemen of quality were passing rich on £40 a year. We have servants of the State now who try to pass for poor at £400 a year and more. Are they and other servants of the State coming down to £40 a year and getting into the trenches with the farmers? If the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues are not prepared to do that then I say they are not playing the game. The means by which they got elected through the action of the whisperers will be exposed. Notwithstanding the sarcastic speeches of the Parliamentary Secretary I expect he has a soft heart and that he will do what is asked in the motion for the farmers of the country. The Parliamentary Secretary says that the Centre Party are not supposed to represent the farmers. If the farmers had taken our advice they would not have to regret their action as they have now. They would not have put the Government in the position of having a majority over all Parties, and so enabled them to ridicule the farmer's difficulties. They would have increased the members of the Centre Party and compelled the Government to do their duty to the farmers of the country.

I am not now finding fault with the economic war or dealing with the cause of it. I am not going into that matter at all. I am dealing with the position in which the farmers find themselves no matter to what cause it is due. Everybody knows that the farmers are losing. They are paying more for what they have to purchase and, of course, they are losing the goodwill of the British market. More than that, they pay tariffs in order to protect industries, and instead of getting any protection they find themselves penalised by tariffs on all sides. They are not like any other class of men in the front line trenches because they find their generals are firing at them from behind. We are told that there are only 8 per cent. of the representatives of the farmers in our Party, but even that does not say that we have not a right to speak for the farmers. The farmers whom we represent, if only 8 per cent., should not be insulted by the Parliamentary Secretary, nor should he insult the 80 per cent. which he says he represents. On the contrary he ought to do his best to help them out. It reminds me of the story of the fox and the goat. A fox and a goat happened to be out for a walk and they both got into a ditch. The fox then advised the goat to allow him to get up on his back so that he might get out of the ditch and in return he promised to pull the goat out by the horns afterwards. But when the fox got out on the bank he sat on his tail and started to lecture the goat. The goat then began to get a little wit as the small farmers are now beginning to learn a little wit from the lecture of the Parliamentary Secretary. They are learning a little wit now, but I ask the Parliamentary Secretary not to make them pay too dearly for their education.

Mr. Corry

We have heard so much during the last twelve months about the agricultural community and the economic policy of the Executive in regard to them, and allegations about the impoverishment of the farmers, that one would have thought that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney would by now have been a bit tired of it. Apparently he is not. If there is any Party in this country responsible for the impoverishment of the agricultural community it is the Party of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney and his associates. The people who were responsible were those who started off with the Land Act of 1923 which provided loot for the landlords of this country. They followed year after year in providing the landlords with assistance to get away with that loot.

I move that the debate be now adjourned.

Debate adjourned accordingly.