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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 May 1933

Vol. 47 No. 4

Adjournment Debate—Policy of the Government.

Before the House adjourns, I wish to revert for a few minutes to the question which I put to the President to-day, and to which I received an answer that I considered vague and unsatisfactory. I should like to say that I am not raising the subject now for the purpose of making trouble or stirring up muddy water. On the contrary, I was very much impressed by, and would like to pay a tribute of admiration to the tone and much of the substance of the President's speech this afternoon on the Oath Bill, which was germane to the matter we are about to discuss. I do not want to say anything that would import a different tone or a different spirit into our discussions.

The President made a very striking statement as to the policy of the Government at Arbour Hill on 23rd April—a statement which, so far as I know, had not been foreshadowed in any previous speech. He said it was the policy of the Government by degrees to remove all forms and symbols at present exisiting which they considered inconsistent with Ireland's rights as a sovereign nation, so that they should gradually work up to the day when, if it was desired to declare a Republic, that declaration would be a mere ceremonial.

The first question that occurs to one to ask is why was no declaration of policy on those lines made to the electorate at the general election, if that was then the policy of the Government, and, failing that, if it is something they have evolved since the general election, would not one have expected it to be announced to the Dáil in the first instance rather than on such an occasion as that on which it was announced? Then one asks one's self what are these forms and symbols? What does all this mean? I, for one, have been cudgelling my brains to think what is involved in the statement about forms and symbols, and I cannot succeed in thinking of anything except the Governor-General. Does this mean the abolition of the Governor-General? Is that what it means, and is that all it means, or what exactly is involved? I feel when a statement of that sort is made by the President of the Executive Council—and it was a statement that appeared to bear internal evidence of careful preparation—one has a right to ask the President to be more specific about it. This afternoon, when I asked him to be more specific, he would say nothing except that it had reference to the symbols similar to the Oath which we are removing to-day. I hope he will go a little further than that to-night. Up to this declaration at Arbour Hill there had not been a hint, as far as I am aware, that the Oath Bill was really only the first of a series of similar measures. That was quite a new idea to me, that it was to be the first of a series. Is that a policy on which we can go forward with any satisfaction? Does it not mean that, instead of preserving the tone of the President's speech this afternoon, we will have constantly recurring bouts of excitement and jingoism in this country, that we will be raising constitutional issues one after another in order to stir up ill-feeling between ourselves and the English; that we will be dealing John Bull a further blow every session so that the Government may distract attention from any internal difficulties that the country may have. Is that the motive of the whole thing? As I said this afternoon, I would far prefer an immediate declaration of a Republic to a policy of that sort. I think that, both from the point of view of letting us settle down to tackle real problems, and from the point of view of preparing the way some day for the abolition of Partition and making an impression on the country's poverty, if we must purge the Republican idea out of our system, the sooner we do so the better by declaring a Republic. As long as there is a Republic in the background, it seems to me to be more impossible to get rid of Partition than if we actually tried a Republic and found after experience that the continued disunity of Ireland was something more intolerable, and that a Republic was something we were willing to give up in order to reunite the Irish nation.

The President justified that declaration of policy at Arbour Hill by saying that it arose out of our duty to the memory of the men who died for Ireland in Easter Week. Does it really arise out of that duty? I did not know the men who died in Easter Week, but I honour their memory as men who died for an ideal and men who died for Irish independence. While I honour their memory I honour certainly no less the memory of Irishmen who died for independence on other fields such as Flanders and Gallipoli. They died for independence because they believed, as I believed, and as John Redmond believed, that the best way to secure Irish independence and the unity of Ireland was to do as they did.

What side would the Deputy take if he was in Dublin during Easter Week?

I must be allowed to make my own statement in my own way.

Would you have shot down these men?

As the question has been raised I may say that I got into serious trouble in the British Army, and I lost promotion, and lost other things, because I too hotly defended the attitude of the men who died in Easter Week. But that is not saying that I thought they did a wise thing or a good thing for this country. I did not think so then, and I do not think so now, but I honour their memory none the less. What I ask is: Is it a fact that there are two competing loyalties, that you cannot be true to the memory of those who died in Easter Week without being false to the memory of those other Irishmen—those far more numerous Irishmen—who, all over the world, died in enterprises just as forlorn, though enjoying less spectacular publicity? It is not what is narrow and fanatical in a man that you wish to preserve the memory of for ever. If it was you would have to adopt the gloomy theory that "the evil that men do lives after them; the good lies oft interred with their bones." I will not adopt that theory. What they were after was not a formula, a particular method. Methods and formulas vary. Fundamentally, what they were all after—those who died here and those who died in Flanders and Gallipoli—was the essential independence and unity of this country, the peace and dignity of this country, the happiness and prosperity of this country, and as long as we strive according to our lights to attain these things, whether it be in a Free State or in a Republic, we are being true to the memory of these men and not false to it.

I submit that our real duty to their memory is to turn our minds to constructive patriotism. It is not the sort of thing that was done in the Northern Parliament yesterday, where a pack of fanatics slashed a picture that showed William of Orange on the same side as the Pope in a historical conflict, it is not that intolerant spirit, which, I dare say, might be reproduced down here, if we had pictures representing certain phases in the life of Wolfe Tone that conflict with popular fallacies about him, it is not that spirit or that narrowness that constitutes patriotism. It is not by the perpetuation of class antagonisms, or by driving people out of the country, because they are not of your special political colour, as Deputy Kennedy said to-day he would like to drive me out, that you give evidence of such constructive nationalism as will enrich the country spiritually and materially. I appeal to the President not to start us along false lines as regards our method of honouring the men who died for Ireland.

[The President and Deputy Belton rose.]

The President.

I would like to hear what Deputy Belton has to say.

The President gives way to Deputy Belton.

I thank the President for giving way. If I was aware that it was his right to speak after Deputy MacDermot I would not trespass upon that right but, at any rate, I thank the President for giving way. I certainly cannot pay a tribute to the manner in which the Deputy who has just spoken raised this matter. I think the House will be at one with me in condemning the statement made by the Deputy who referred to the men of Easter Week as fanatics.

I never did make any such statement.

I accept the correction.

May I intervene for a moment to say that when we were talking a few weeks ago, in the adjournment debate on the question of unemployment, the President was prevented from making any adequate reply by the fact that Deputy Belton intervened before the President's speech. He is doing the same now in this debate and I implore him not to do so and to let the President reply.

On a question raised on the adjournment the usual practice is that the Deputy who raises the question makes a speech and the Minister replies. If the Minister gives way to another Deputy he may do so.

In the case referred to by Deputy MacDermot it was agreed, between the Whips, that certain Deputies should speak from this Party on that occasion. It was not a question raised in the ordinary way on the adjournment of the House on a particular day. It was raised on the question of the adjournment of the House over the Easter recess. There were two hours given for the debate on that occasion, and in order to keep us out of the debate—I do not know whether it was done intentionally or not—Deputy MacDermot spoke for 35 minutes repeating himself continually.

I am bound to intervene to say that I spoke for exactly ten minutes.

We all have memories. Deputy MacDermot has pursued the same course to-day by taking up the time that the President has given me out of his own time. I wish to say with regard to the men who died for Ireland that we honour them. They are the nation's dead and not the dead of any political party. As I said, we all honour them and the nation should honour them and not merely a political party. I have only to say that if people who talk so much about constructive patriotism in this country did a little constructive work and stopped talking about constructive patriotism we would get on a little further. We could listen to people telling us how to construct the country if they made some attempt at constructive work themselves, but it becomes a bit hard to bear when people tell us how to do the work and yet do not do any work of a constructive nature themselves.

They do not even grow cabbage.

It would be much better if the energy put into this debate, and the energy put into the abolition of symbols, were put into the creating of substances, and if we had some regard to the substances which are required outside the House instead of wasting the time of the House in nonsense of this kind, and not directing our efforts to the constructive economic work that the country wants us to devote our efforts to. I think if the President would devote more of his time, and more of the time of his Government, to economic development outside, instead of talking of symbols that he wants to eliminate one by one, he could eliminate them all as easily and as simply as the Oath was eliminated to-day. If he had come along 12 months ago and instead of merely devoting himself to the abolition of the Oath he took the bull by the horns and publicly declared his intention and introduced a Bill proclaiming a Republic—that could be done as easily as the Oath has been formally abolished to-day. Why the President did not do that, and inform the country of his intention to do it, instead of talking about removing symbol after symbol which he has power within the Treaty to do, and proclaim a Republic is simply incomprehensible. Why not now take his courage in both hands and proclaim a Republic? Why did he not do so a year ago? There was nothing to stop him. I suggest that we should not have this piecemeal declaration of a Republic. Let us get away from this piecemeal business, let us face the matter at once instead of continuing in a sort of lingering death.

I am delighted to see how many converts we are making. In a very short time, much shorter that I suggested at Arbour Hill, we will have all bodies in the country satisfied that the proclamation of a Republic is the right thing and I hope yet to have the pleasure of doing it. However, the question at issue at the moment deals with the matter raised by Deputy MacDermot this morning and whether I gave a satisfactory reply to his question or not. I maintain I did. If the Deputy wanted to take the trouble to look through the Constitution—he was not here in the years when the Constitution was under discussion— he would have no difficulty in finding out, for himself, what exactly were the Articles to which I made reference to-day. If he read over and examined the speeches made when the Constitution was introduced into the Provisional Parliament he would have found these Articles. I said that the statement had reference to those provisions of the Constitution, which in accordance with the British interpretation of the Treaty of December 6th, 1921, were imposed upon the Provisional Parliament, sitting as a Constituent Assembly, and have never been freely accepted by the Irish people. Surely the Deputy could have found out the provisions I referred to—he could have got the particular information he wants if he looked up the Debates. Lest there should be any doubt I continued further and said: "Many of them"—that is of the provisions imposed—"are inconsistent with the present status of the Irish Free State. One is being removed to-day"—that was the Oath, and I am glad to say the Oath Bill is now an Act—"and legislation will be introduced in the near future to remove the others."

I think the Deputy, if he so applied himself to it, if he really wanted to find out what was referred to, could very easily have done so. There was sufficient information in that. There was no hiding of anything. "The remainder"—that is of those provisions that were imposed—"will be removed according as opportunity presents itself."

I do not know whether a debate on the adjournment is to be a debate on policy, but it is not a fact that I did not mention that before. The whole policy of Fianna Fáil was made clear at its foundation. It was made quite clear to the Irish people that we had in mind the removal of every mark or badge of inferiority, everything in the Constitution which was not consistent with the sovereign rights of the Irish people. I instanced the Oath as having been imposed. I have here before me a copy of the Draft Constitution which was taken over to Britain in 1922 as implementing the Treaty, and I have here, marked in red, the parts of that Constitution that were inserted on the other side. When the delegates came back, and when they brought the Constitution Bill before the Constituent Assembly, they said that there were a number of articles in that which had been imposed. They did not say it in such precise terms, but that was the effect of what they said, and looking through this document you can see that they were imposed. If anybody had any doubt, he could satisfy himself quite easily by looking through that document that they were imposed. Article 17, which we have removed to-day, was not, for instance, in that original draft; neither was Section 2 of the Act, which has also been removed to-day, and which made our Constitution subordinate to a Treaty. Article 66, on the Privy Council, was not in the original draft. Every Deputy in the House knows from what I said when the Oath Bill was under discussion, that that Article will also go. In a work on international law it was referred to—I took a note of the exact terms—as a decisive mark of dependency, as a badge of inferiority. That mark of dependency, that badge of inferiority is going to go. It will go as the Oath went, and I propose in a very short time to bring in quite a batch of Articles of that sort which will go. For instance, Article 41, which contains that archaic reservation of Bills, will go. The Privy Council will go first, because it is inconsistent with the judicial sovereignty of this State that there should be an appeal from its highest court to an outside authority which does not consist of Irish citizens. That is an invasion, as I have indicated, of the judicial sovereignty of the Irish people. That will go, and generally all those provisions that were inserted in London, and which are inconsistent with the rights of the Irish people to have just that Constitution they want themselves and not a Constitution which other people may want them to have, will go.

Might I ask the President will that involve any departure from the Treaty position?

I have made my attitude on that clear to-day. As far as we are concerned the Irish people will be consulted before a Republic is declared. The Articles there which we believe not to be required by the Treaty will go first, and there are some—just as in the case of the Oath—where if it is necessary to go to the Irish people to get rid of the Treaty in order to get them removed, we will do that, but go they all will. As I said, I still hope to see the day when I will have the pleasure—as I had to-day of removing the Oath—of taking the whole batch and finally ending up by declaring a Republic.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Thursday, 4th May, 1933.

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