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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 1

Local Government (Extension of Franchise) Bill, 1933—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome the introduction of this Bill because I believe that the extension of the franchise to a considerable percentage of our population is overdue. Deputy Fitzgerald, in opposing this measure when it was last before the Dáil, told us that if we extended the franchise we would be giving the vote to an irresponsible multitude. Does he suggest that the young men who went out in Easter Week were irresponsible; or the young men who fought the anti-conscription campaign; or the young men who took over the courts from the British, while the British were still in occupation here; or the young men who took over the county councils and other local bodies and carried them on in spite of the opposition offered by the English Government at the time—carried out their work efficiently and to the satisfaction of the people concerned? To whom do we extend the franchise? If we take the ordinary country household, the workingman's household, we find the young man earning his daily bread, contributing to the support of the household and contributing his share of the rates. We find the young girl engaged in her household duties also contributing, by the sale of eggs and butter, etc., to the support of the household and to the support of the rates. In the same way, in the farmer's house, we find the young men working in the fields from early morning until dark. They have a responsibility to support the household and provide money for the rates.

So it is with the town workers. If they find that the rates are high they know they have a responsibility to keep them low, so that they may be able to find employment and continuous employment; because they realise that if the rates were very high they would not have the opportunity of getting the same amount of employment. The unemployed man has a responsibility also, because if there is extravagant administration by the local bodies and the rates are high, the unemployed man would be less likely to secure a position than he would if the rates were low. They all have a responsibility. I consider that the Deputy who said that these people form an irresponsible multitude did not consider them so at election time, when he would have been willing enough to send them out as canvassers and agents to do the bulk of his work. I wonder what those people would think if they heard Deputies alluding to them as an irresponsible multitude.

The late Government, although now when they find themselves in opposition oppose this measure, had not implicit confidence in the men running the local bodies down the country. On numerous occasions they thought fit to suspend the local councils and to put commissioners into their places simply because they were not carrying out their duties to the satisfaction of the late Government. Furthermore, they did not place confidence in the rural councils because they took the power from them and appointed various people to different positions under those councils. They took control out of the hands of the local bodies and put it into the hands of commissioners. Then, in the case of appointments to those bodies, they sent one name from Dublin, took the responsibility for the selection of officials out of the hands of the local councillors and contended that the local councillors were not fit to select people to fill those positions. Deputy MacDermot said that youth wanted to take money out of other peoples' pockets and that that was the reason they were crying out for the extension of the franchise.

Will the Deputy quote my words? I certainly did not make any statement of that kind.

Well, the Deputy said it was envy.

I certainly did not say that.

If the Deputy is purporting to be quoting he should give the actual words.

Mr. Kelly

I do not profess to be quoting the Deputy's exact words. I merely took pencil notes. I have not the Official Report because it is not yet circulated. If the Deputy says he did not use these words I accept his statement unreservedly. We did not come in here for the express purpose of collecting taxes. We are here to represent the people in An Dáil for the purpose of collecting taxation and spending it to the best advantage. So it is with the local councils. They collect the money and they spend it to the best advantage. I do not see why it is that old men should be better administrators than young men. I hope I will not be accused of egotism when I say that at 21 years of age I was elected a member of the Board of Guardians in my native place and at 23 I was appointed chairman of that Board of Guardians, a post which I held until the Board was abolished by the last Government. I may say that many eulogistic things are on record as to the administrative policy of that Board of Guardians. I mention that to point out that old men should not be afraid of young men coming into power. Young men are trying to make themselves acquainted with the details of local administration and there is probably no better school than the school of the world for those young men who want to learn. It will develop their character and they will become better citizens as a result.

To my mind no argument has been put forward so far as to why young people should not get the vote and not merely the young people. Some of those who are without the vote at the present moment are men and women who have not been as successful in life as other people are. Merely because a person is living in a house in the country it is supposed that he has more right to a vote than a man who does not own a house, but the man who does not own a house has certainly the responsibility to try and provide a house for himself.

He will get the vote then.

Mr. Kelly

Yes but he will have no more responsibility placed on his shoulders then than before.

He will have shown that he is a better man.

Mr. Kelly

There is no person in a country town who has not a certain amount of responsibility, directly or indirectly, to shoulder in order to provide for himself. In this connection the young man has even a greater responsibility placed upon him than the old man because the old man has not so many years to look forward to as the younger man has.

They will kill off the old fellows then.

Mr. Kelly

That may be your idea, but if we want progress it is to be found only in the ranks of youth. We will not find efficiency in the ranks of old people. It is to youth that we have to look for that.

What struck me most forcibly about this Bill is that the sponsors of it have failed to prove that disability exists in the respect that is contended. The last speaker mentioned that the men who went out in Easter Week were not irresponsible. He also mentioned that the men who went out in 1920 and took hold of the local authorities were not irresponsible; but he forgets that at that time the men who took hold of the local authorities got elected to them on the then existing register. It was the same register; there was no adult suffrage then. The comparison the last speaker made is even from his point of view most unfavourable considering the circumstances of the time and that there was no extended franchise required at the time such as the Fianna Fáil Party wants at the present time.

They have not put forward the reason why they require it. They have not told this House what is the real reason behind this Bill. Of course it is evident to any person who knows anything of the country what the real reason behind this Bill is. The real reason behind this Bill at the present time is that the people who have anything to lose in this country have been losing it because of the Fianna Fáil policy, and Fianna Fáil is afraid to face the country on the issue. There is no other reason. Deputy Kelly may laugh.

I have to laugh.

Deputy Kelly thinks, as a matter of fact, that this country does not exist outside the four walls of Dublin. It does exist, and very much so. The one redeeming feature about this Bill is that Fianna Fáil have realised that they are afraid, and that they ought to be afraid, to go back to the country and ask for a vote of the people who have something to lose in the country.

They have already done so.

Mr. Rice

Try it again.

Exactly. As our friend of the Government Benches said, the register was good enough in 1920, when the British Government were here. The young people had not votes then. It is not good enough to-day because the Fianna Fáil policy has robbed the people, and Fianna Fáil are afraid to face them. There ought to be no repeal of an Act unless that Act has either failed in its administration, or does not suit. Does either of those conditions exist at the present time? If so, the Government has not put up any case to that effect. They have not shown what improvement there will be in local administration as a result of this Bill. Probably the case will be made that the Government is in fact the greatest contributor towards the rates at the present time, by way of grant. Admitted. It will also be used as an argument in favour of this Bill that every taxpayer in the country, irrespective of what his age is, if he is a smoker or a drinker—a tea drinker or anything else—has to contribute his share to national taxation, and is entitled to be represented on the county council and local authorities generally because of that indirect way in which he himself has contributed towards the county council fund. At the same time take the case of two men, one who is not a ratepayer and the other who is a ratepayer. They are both, we will say, making equal contributions towards national taxation. One, by reason of the fact that he has a farm of land which carries a valuation of £50 or £60, is contributing say £7 or £8 towards national taxation the same as the other man, and in addition he is contributing £25 or £40 per annum towards local rates. Has he a right, after all, to some advantage over the other man on account of the expenditure of that particular money? He certainly has, or at least he should have. Consequently, I maintain that the present register is, for the purposes of good administration, the soundest and best register. This Bill is an attempt to give votes to irresponsible people. It does not matter for what reason they are irresponsible; it does not matter, as the last Deputy said, if you think you are going to get better administration from people of mature age; that may be true, but then it may also be quite right that the Deputy is a man who came to maturity before the ordinary run of people; in any case the people who are responsible for the payment of rates ought to be the best people to administer the funds. That goes without saying. There is no reason that I can see behind the Bill. The country knows that, and Fianna Fáil knows it, but they are afraid to face the people who have something to lose in this country, and they want to get in the voters who have nothing to lose. That is the real reason behind the Bill.

Like Deputy Brennan, I am inclined, in one respect, to rejoice at the introduction of this Bill, because it is an admission that Fianna Fáil has completely lost the confidence of all the persons who are responsible ratepayers in this State. The object of postponing the elections, and the object of bringing in this Bill, is perfectly obvious. The present administration knows that on going to county council elections, especially in the rural districts, upon the present register, on going to ask the suffrages of those persons whom it has ruined by its legislation and by its administrative action during the last year and a half, they would be absolutely swept out of existence. Therefore, as far as it is an admission on the part of Fianna Fáil, I suppose that if we were mere politicians we would rejoice at the introduction of this Bill, but when I come to consider what the Bill is and what its repercussions are going to be it becomes obvious that the Fianna Fáil Party is clutching at any sort of straw it can see. At no matter what cost to the country, at no matter what cost to the State, we have Fianna Fáil endeavouring to keep itself afloat. Take this Bill. It is a matter of expediency of course—I will deal with expediency in a moment—for the Government to bring it in. Let us take the principle which lies behind it, and there is a big principle behind it. There certainly is a case which appealed to the last Executive Council that in the matter of electing Deputies to this House every adult man and woman should have a vote. Why? Because every adult man and woman pay taxes, directly or indirectly. There is nobody in this State who does not pay some of the taxes which are levied. Whether he pays them out of his own pocket, whether he gets the money from another person to do it, or whether he gets it actually in the shape of dole or otherwise from the State, some of it is taken back in indirect taxes from him, taxes on the various articles essential to life which he has to buy, and which this Administration has taxed.

Every administration levies indirect taxes. This House is a great deal more than a rate-collecting or tax-collecting body. This House, and the Oireachtas generally, is a law-making body. It brings in laws which regulate, to a certain extent, the lives and conduct of the people of this State. The people of this State, therefore, when general laws are being passed, must undoubtedly have a claim that they should be considered in the making of those laws. As I have said, there is a case in that respect, and a case which appeared to be a good one to the last Executive Council, when manhood suffrage was introduced into this State before it had been introduced into many countries in Europe. When you come to local administration it stands upon a completely different footing. None of those considerations arise. According to our system of administration nobody pays rates except persons who own property, and apart from Government grants the entire funds which are being administered are funds which are taken out of the ratepayers' pockets. It is, accordingly, to the interests of the ratepayer to see, in the first place, that no unnecessary amount of money will be raised by way of rates, and secondly, it is to the interests of the ratepayer to see that the money levied as rates shall be properly and efficiently expended.

We have had a great example recently of the danger of indiscriminate expenditure—of persons expending money who have not got to provide the money. I do not believe there is a single Deputy in this House who will not say that the £1,000,000 borrowed on the Road Fund was frittered away or that there was 5/- worth of work done for each pound of that money expended, because the persons expending it had nothing to do with the raising of the money. What you have here is that people, who are not interested in anything except getting the rates as high as they possibly can if they can make any money out of it themselves, are to be the electors. That is entirely wrong. Why should they? The ratepayers pay all the rates. Why should they not have the sole voice in the expending of the rates? Why should any person, who does not contribute a halfpenny to the rates, have a voice in the spending of them? Why should they have any voice in electing the representatives who are to have charge of the expenditure of the sums collected in rates?

Deputy Kelly, speaking a few moments ago, made a very remarkable pronouncement. He said that every man had a responsibility to provide for himself. Most men have a responsibility to provide for themselves out of the labours of their own hands or the exertions of their own brains; but this is a new doctrine, that a man should have a responsibility to provide for himself out of the pockets of other people; and you may be certain that no set of men in this world yet have been economists when they were dealing with the contents of the purses or of the pockets of other men. That is precisely what you are going to have in this State. You are going to have a large body of electors putting in men who are pledged, not to economy but pledged to expenditure. You are going to have money spent indiscriminately in unnecessary works and flung in every direction, because they will not have to pay for it themselves.

Already—and here I come to what is, possibly, the most serious part of this Bill, coming as it does in the present crisis of Irish life—we know, at the present moment, that the Government has put on such heavy expenditure on the country and such a heavy load of taxation on the back of the taxpayer that the Minister for Finance admits that he has completely exhausted all the possible sources of taxation. Nothing more can be got from taxation unless, he says, he goes down and taxes the absolute necessities of life more heavily than they are taxed at present, or heavier than they can bear. That is the position as far as the ordinary taxpayer is concerned. Now, under this Bill, you will have the young men, about whom we hear so much and who are anxious for expenditure, getting control; and there is, at any rate, a very grave danger that these men will run up the rates until the rates, like taxation, have reached to the very highest possible point. You will have, then, some persons unable to pay rates, and any person who has a single penny left after he has paid his taxes will find it taken out of his pockets by excessive rates. This Bill, taken together with the taxation which the Minister for Finance is imposing upon this country, is having this effect, and must have this effect—that by taking away from every single person who has got money every single penny that you can wring out of him—and I do not mean now large-moneyed men or men of large possessions, but men of small possessions—if you take away from such men the entirety of their possessions, and that is what you are doing— you are cultivating and tilling the field for the establishment of those things that we hear so much about now-a-days: workers' republics, the Communistic State and everything of that nature. You are heading fast for it. I do not say that the Executive Council are deliberately playing for these results to follow. I do not say that. But I do say this: that if Deputy O'Kelly and the other members of the Executive Council spent their nights and days studying Marx and Engels, I do not think they could devise methods better than the methods they are devising at the present moment for bringing about that revolution which was to be the principal method to which Marx and others of his school look for the achievement of their aims.

We have already had in this House, or have been asked to have, a complete disregard for law of all kinds and disregard for the dictates of common honesty. We have two Bills already before the House which are direct infringements of the Seventh Commandment. We have now in this Bill a direct encouragement to persons who, by electing the representatives, may get control of the finances of the country and, getting control of the finances of the country and having no responsibility, not having to find the rates themselves, will very naturally — because it is in human nature that they would do it—will not have any regard to the interests of the ratepayers and will make the burden of rates as heavy upon the ratepayer as the burden of taxation is upon the ordinary individual at the present moment. The combination of those two is the most excellent tilling of the field for other people to scatter pernicious doctrines in.

I presume that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, in introducing this Bill, has an idea that it is likely to improve local government. Deputy Kelly, a few moments ago, speaking to that effect, made mention of the young men of Easter Week and of 1920 and so on. I cannot see at all what that has got to do with this Bill. People should be chosen for local government purposes on account of their ability to see that the rates which are paid are judiciously spent. I put it to the Minister himself: Is he satisfied, even under the present restricted electorate, that that has been done? I know that it has not. I know that when this Bill becomes law, and when the elections are held under it, there will be no more pitiable man in the country than the Minister for Local Government and Public Health himself, because he cannot manage it. I cannot see how, under this Bill, the ordinary, reasonable ratepayer will have any say. I am absolutely certain that he will not, and that people will be chosen for one idea or another. They will say that they are going to do this and that they are going to do that; that they are going to build houses, give home assistance and everything else. That is the effect that the whole thing will have. I have heard it stated here that there should be no taxation without representation. How are the taxpayers affected by this Bill? People who contribute nothing to local taxation will have the greatest say in connection with the disbursement of money. Is that fair?

That is not so. Everybody in some form or another contributes to taxation.

That is the Deputy's viewpoint, and he is entitled to express it here.

But it is not correct.

My point is that under this Bill you will have people who contribute nothing in the way of local taxation saying most in regard to the expenditure of the money. I am prepared to stand by that.

Everyone who eats and drinks makes a contribution to taxation, either local or general.

That is news to me. I may be dense, but I cannot understand that viewpoint at all. The Minister knows perfectly well the condition of affairs in the constituency which I represent. He knows why the existing conditions were brought about. Irresponsible persons have seen fit to impose taxation on the ratepayers which the ratepayers cannot meet. The Minister has seen fit to admonish, to reprimand them, but with no effect. What effect will this Bill have upon such a state of things? It will have no effect. I would much prefer to see a commissioner appointed than to see this Bill become operative. Under a commissioner, at any rate, we would get a fair crack of the whip. Under this Bill the farming community, the large or even moderate ratepayers, will have no reasonable say in connection with the administration of rates.

The local elections were postponed because of the very obvious fact that the Fianna Fáil representatives were afraid to face the elections. There was no other reason why the elections should be postponed. The Minister knows quite well that members of the body I spoke about were sentenced in Green Street to several months imprisonment in connection with the letting of a cottage. If £40 could be extracted from a labourer for being given possession of a cottage what could not be done in the future by irresponsible people? I say all that sort of thing is due to the fact that we have irresponsible people on local councils.

Who elected them?

If the local elections had been allowed to proceed all that would have been changed and I am sure nobody would be more pleased about it than the Minister. No Bill that has been introduced in this House could have a more adverse effect on the ordinary ratepayers—they need not be large ratepayers, either—than this measure. The ordinary ratepayers will have little or no say as regards administration. I can visualise the time when the rates will mount to such a high figure that there will not be a chance in a million of having them collected. That is a state of affairs which no responsible Government should bring about. Deputy T. Kelly mentioned that he entered public life at a very early age. That is quite true, but so also did the Minister for Local Government. You have a few people like that——

There are very few who will at that age realise the responsibilities that are placed upon their shoulders. In any country town you will find young boys who will vote for any person who promises to give the most home assistance that can be got. That is absolutely true.

That is a libel on the young men.

I have as much regard for the young men as has the Deputy, but human nature being what it is, I believe that they will naturally vote for the person or the Party who promises the greatest expenditure. I have had conversations with people representing various interests. I am not drawing any distinction between Fianna Fáil, Cumann na nGaedheal, the Centre Party or the Labour Party. One man told me that it was his duty to see that the rates were high—that was what he was there for. I am sure everybody knows that when it comes to a question of running the affairs of a county council there will be a lot of wildcat schemes before us for one reason or another. There have been in the past and, I am sure, there will be more in the future. Where you have representatives who have nothing to lose and who contribute nothing to the rates—and the people whom they represent do not contribute, either—is it not plain that they will see the rates are increased?

I regret that such a Bill as this has been introduced. It was hard enough to get proper men on local boards in the past, but I fear it will be a lot harder in the future if this Bill is made law.

I rise to support this Bill, and I do so with a full sense of my responsibility. I claim to speak with a certain amount of authority on this particular matter. I have had a considerable experience of local government. For 12 years I have been connected with the Clare County Council, of which body I happen to be Chairman. I have also been a member of practically everyone of the subsidiary bodies connected with the county council during the last 12 years. We are told here that if there is an extension of the franchise the scheme of local government will turn topsy-turvy. We are told that if young men are admitted to take part in the administration of local affairs these affairs cannot be properly administered. I am pleased to see here some very young men on the opposite benches. Can it be contended by these young men that they are unfit to administer the affairs of an ordinary county council, and yet they are considered fit to take part in the deliberations of this House?

I think it was Deputy Fitzgerald who told us that the only concern of members of local authorities is to collect and spend the rates, whereas the Central Government has the responsibility of catering for the requirements of our citizens. Despite that allegation I contend that the members of local authorities are in closer touch with the ordinary lives of the plain people than those who are members of the central authority can claim to be. More than 50 per cent. of the funds administered by the local authorities are contributed from central funds, and to the central funds all persons, whether they are on the local government franchise or not, contribute.

All the people have a say in the election of Deputies into this House, and these Deputies have the control of the central fund in their hands. Surely if it is right that they should have a say as to who is to control the central funds which provide the necessary lubricating oil for the working of the Central Government as well as more than 50 per cent. of the moneys which are administered by the local authorities, it is only fair and reasonable that they should have a say as to who should administer the remaining portion of somewhat less than 50 per cent. to which they are supposed not to contribute directly, but to which most undoubtedly they contribute indirectly. Let us take the case of a farmer's son, 30 or 40 years of age, living at home and working all his lifetime on the farm. Can it be contended that that man is not contributing to the rates? Is that man not working as hard as any man, whether in town or country? And is he not contributing his share towards these rates out of the farm on which he works?

A nice young man 40 years of age.

I have frequently heard of young men of 50 referred to as boys, and this is often the case in rural parts of the country.

And young ladies of 50 as little girls.

Deputy Fitzgerald referred to the irresponsible multitude. What is the will of the people now? Some few years ago we heard the will of the people flaunted all over the country. Is it to be the will of the majority of the people? Is it to be the will of the people or is it to be merely the will of the rapidly diminishing majority who have reached that stage of senile decay when they can be cajoled into the support of Cumann na nGaedheal? Are these the people who alone should have a say in local administration? In my opening remarks I referred to my association with local affairs in my native county, and I just briefly wish to revert to the position which obtains there. Despite the allegations from the people on the opposite benches I challenge any of them to go down to Clare and take us on even in local administration. Why? Because up to 1925 local affairs were in the control of Cumann na nGaedheal, and what was the record?

The record of Cumann na nGaedheal is not relevant here.

The Deputy's point of view interests me extremely. Might I ask him if he can illustrate his point by saying whether there was a change in the average age of the council in recent years?

In reply to Deputy MacDermot I am sorry that I did not inspect the birth certificates of the members of the public bodies in my county before I came up, and if I did, I would certainly say that the personnel of the council in control of local affairs in the last seven or eight years was certainly somewhat on the youthful side. Despite the extravagance of the old men who preceded them, they have certainly carried out an economy in administration, so much so that they are not afraid to face the electors. Despite the fact that the rates in 1925 were something upwards of 20/- in the £, despite the fact that an arrears of debt was handed down to them of upwards of £80,000 in the case of the county council, and £30,000 in the case of the board of health, despite the fact that the entire hospital accommodation which the old council had failed to provide had to be faced and provided despite all these adverse factors, in the past eight years all that has been changed, and the rates are now within the capacity of the people of Clare to pay, despite all the complaining and whining from Deputies across the way.

Several Deputies have spoken in favour of commissioners. The commissioner system has been tried in the past and I do not know if there is any Deputy in the House who will stand up and defend it. Has it been found that the commissioner system has worked better or more satisfactorily from the ratepayers' point of view?

I doubt it. Why has it been found necessary to remove so many commissioners?

The commissioners had to be put there owing to the extravagance of the old public bodies.

But these bodies were elected on the old register and now we are told if the register is changed and the young people given a chance matters will be worse. In certain parts of the country people have failed to face up to their responsibilities. They have elected men who should not be elected. I contend that men ought not to be elected who had not any regard for the interests of the ratepayers, big and small. I have known men whose valuation runs into considerable sums and these men had no more scruples of conscience about expending public money than men of no property. Perhaps after all the possession of broad acres is not a good standard by which to judge men's honesty. Deputies may laugh but I have known very honest men who had not as much money as would jingle on a tombstone and we have seen the other kind too. Personally I would like to see an infusion of new blood into the local authorities of this country. We have a considerable demand for the amenities of life throughout the country. We have demands for waterworks and sewerage schemes. If the fight against disease is to be carried to a successful conclusion; if disease is to be prevented, if this fight against epidemics is to be carried on to the successful conclusion that we all hope to see then the provision of waterworks and sewerage schemes and other preventive measures are a necessity to win this fight and the local authorities will have to face up to it in the future. After all, prevention is more economical than cure.

It is only by an infusion of new blood and by permitting the young men of the country to have a say in the administration of local affairs, just as they have in the administration of national affairs, and by the addition of men of vision and courage that these schemes will be tackled properly. We have had for the past few months a campaign against the payment of rates sponsored by people who should have known better—some people who have perhaps grown old in experience. One of them, speaking last week, informed us that he deprecated having politics in local authorities. Was it not from political motives that the advice was tendered to local authorities to abstain from striking rates? I hope, therefore, that this Bill will become law in a very short time, and that we shall thus see an advance in local administration and not be harking back to the old mid-Victorian methods which some Deputies would like to see. This is an age of progress, and if progress is to be made it can only be made by young men.

I think it will be abundantly clear to Deputies that political wisdom does not lie in the possession of a grey beard any more than in the possession of a youthful appearance, because if you look round the House you will find grey heads and bald heads in abundance in the opposite benches and you will find many young men on these benches. If you go down the country you will find that a lot of the young people who are now coming on are showing far more political wisdom than their immediate predecessors who voted in the last two general elections. I do not take umbrage at this Bill on account of its giving votes or authority or political influence to youthful people, because I have got some connection with the county from which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries comes, and I know that in his county, men, as long as they remain unmarried, whether they are 70 or 80 years of age, are still referred to as boys. I know one particular instance in County Clare where a poor man aged 75 lamented the death of his mother and being left a poor orphan. We can readily understand the Parliamentary Secretary's championing of youth. The question, however, as to whether this is or is not a good Bill does not depend on whether people who are young or people who are old get votes under the Bill. For Deputies on this side of the House, from whose Party was formed the Government that gave this country adult suffrage and proportional representation in 1922, in the middle of a civil war, adult suffrage in local government has no terrors. I think Deputy Brennan put his finger on the real issue when he asked whether the Government had made any case to show what improvement would be effected in the system of local government by the measure.

I would be perfectly prepared to support the measure, even at the expense of the big ratepayers, whose cause was ably advocated by Deputy Curran, if I were convinced that any betterment would be effected in the system of local government by the proposals in the Bill. But I do not think there will. I do not think there will, for the reasons given by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney and others who spoke. I do not intend to repeat these observations, nor do I intend to put forward the case of those people who base their advocacy against this Bill on the principle of no taxation without representation, or of those who base their advocacy against the Bill on the principle of no representation without taxation. I should like to put it on two grounds: (1) does it effect any betterment in the system of local government; and (2) what effect it is going to have on the system of democracy? The first aspect of the case has been dealt with by previous speakers. I only hope that as a result of the Bill we shall not have more corruption, more of the ward heelers, more of the corruption of every kind, class, and description, with which we were familiar in the past in connection with local government administration. It is permitted even to those who are against this Bill to hope that, if those young people whose cause has been advocated by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, after sowing all their local wild oats on these boards, are brought to a proper sense of their responsibility in connection with the expenditure and administration of public funds, that some good will have been effected by the passage of the Bill. We are all familiar with the spectacle of people from every part of the country with their hands outstretched to the local authority begging for a grant, and money, and more money for this, that and the other thing. If this Bill could achieve a position where the local people could be brought to a sense of their responsibility in connection, not merely with State expenditure, but local expenditure, then something would have been achieved by the Bill. I very gravely doubt, however, whether that purpose will be effected.

This country has been for the last ten or 11 years the happy hunting ground of students of political theories, and this Bill will furnish them with an additional chapter for their theorising, because it appears to me that this Bill is really democracy brought to its logical conclusion. I am disposed to agree with those political thinkers who are advocates of democracy and democratic forms of government, but who feel that if these forms of government are pushed too far, and if democratic principles are allowed to run riot, the result will ultimately be to ruin democracy, to bring about a failure of these institutions of State and local administration which have their base on real, true foundations of democratic government. We have a small country here in the whole thirty-two counties. We have two Parliamentary Governments and we are always crying, and properly crying, about partition. But we are going by this Bill to introduce into the Twenty-Six Counties a system of federal government, not immediately but ultimately. It seems to me ridiculous that, in a country with a population of about 3,000,000, we should set up not merely an expensive system of central organisation but a whole series of what, in effect, will be local parliaments. I believe that when people find their feet in connection with the new franchise and the new representation given by the Bill you will have demands from the local boards for local autonomy in matters other than those now within the jurisdiction of local authorities. The logical result of that must be conflict with the central administration and, possibly, ultimately a system of futile federalism in this country and the weakening of the central authority. That, if you like, is the actual theoretical aspect of the proposals contained in this Bill. We object to this Bill on two grounds. In the first place, it is not going to help in purifying local administration; and in the second place it is inevitable that it will bring about a strong reaction against democracy.

The Minister, when introducing this Bill, dwelt at length upon democracy. He said this was a great step forward in the democratic development of this country. It struck me as an interesting coincidence that the Minister became so passionately democratic when the members of the Fianna Fáil Party discovered, up and down the country, that they had not the slightest chance of winning the local government, elections scheduled to take place in June and to be fought upon the old register.

We discovered no such thing.

And having discovered that, they informed the Minister for Local Government with a great deal more embellishment than the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, that something should be done. Then a wave of democracy swept the Executive Council, and the second Magna Charta was written, and the rights of the people were again vindicated. Every one knows the reason this Bill was brought in was to collar the county councils for Fianna Fáil. I shall deal with that aspect of the question in a moment. I should like just now to refer to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries. He is badly informed upon lobsters, but he is glorious upon young men. The Fianna Fáil young men of 40, and upwards, marching behind this Bill in the defence of the youth of this country is a glorious picture. It is the farmers' sons the Parliamentary Secretary is anxious about. He is anxious about the 40-year-old labourers who have a right to make their voices heard in local administration. That is the Parliamentary Secretary's excuse for the introduction of this Bill—the 40-year old labourers clamouring, in the name of Fianna Fáil, for democratic rights of the county councils. The Parliamentary Secretary went on to speak with deep emotion of the will of the people. He wants to see the will of the people made truly effective in this land. That immediately gives us the key to the whole poisonous atmosphere that surrounds this proposal. The object of this Bill is not to improve local administration; the object of this Bill is to turn every local body in this country into a political platform.

How do you explain that?

We are well aware that in certain periods in the development of this country local bodies were turned into platforms for political orations; and if they could get a friendly chairman you could get away with murder at a county council. It was the fruitful stumping ground for every local democrat in the country.

A Deputy

For every bombast in the country.

The Deputy has described it accurately. The number of times that poor Caitlin Ni Houlihan has been marched up and down the council chamber, rioting in the complexity of every colour, would be past reckoning, and it was the bombast that always did it so badly. I have no doubt that the Deputy, when he was a small boy, heard repeated those bombastic expressions of patriotism and love of country. These patriots were supposed to be doing their bit for Ireland, and the ratepayers were called upon to pay.

But that was on the old register.

And to the credit of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party they cleared that kind of politics out of the local bodies of this country.

It was the Fianna Fáil Party did that.

Let us not get into ancient history. That would only give rise to a type of discussion that would embarrass the Chair and lead to something approaching breaches of order, because when I get on to that particular subject anything may happen. I say then to the credit of Cumann na nGaedheal that they cleared that kind of clap-trap out of the local bodies, and after that a great many of the local bodies became efficient and addressed themselves to the work that they were sent there to do. When they were protected from politics they settled down to the administration of the local services they were called upon to administer. I am convinced that the result of this Bill will be to revive that unhealthy atmosphere of the old administration where the primary purposes of the councils will be forgotten and where they will be used as political platforms for the discussion of every kind of political subjects. I think, from the point of view of the ratepayers and the poor in the rural areas, that is all very bad and is bound to do a great deal of harm to the country as a whole.

The Parliamentary Secretary wound up by saying that this was an age of progress, and he rejoiced to be in the van. He did not examine where he was progressing to, and after all, when discussing progress, it is a very important thing to make up your mind in what direction you are facing, because you may be progressing towards destruction. In my opinion, and I believe in the opinion of every local administrator on these benches, the result of this Bill is going to be that local authorities will become unworkable. The Minister for Local Government will eventually be driven back to carry into operation the warning he once gave here that the time may come when he would have to do away with the local bodies and put in commissioners. I think the Minister by this Bill is hastening that day. I am sufficient of a democrat to believe that local administration is better conducted by responsible individuals elected by ratepayers of the area than by commissioners, if they are responsible men. But I warn Deputies that this Bill is going to create a situation that will force the Minister's hand, that it will create a situation that the Minister cannot stand over in this Dáil, and he will be driven back, or his successor will be driven back, in two or three years' time, and will be forced to come before this House, and inform the House that it is his duty either to put in commissioners or to put in the law.

Now it is all nonsense and cheap clap-trap to be talking about young men and the poor. To my mind it is unscrupulous clap-trap. There is no real solicitude there for the young men or the poor, any more than there is on any of the other benches. I am satisfied that every Deputy in this House is as anxious as any of the Deputies on the Fianna Fáil Benches to see that the poor are looked after. All the youth and beauty is not on the Fianna Fáil Benches. They are lovely to look at, I know. I can well believe that they are a great deal admired——

If we are not handsome we are intelligent-looking anyway.

I decline to be personal. I am prepared to deal in generalities, but I will not go further. All I can say is that it is high time Deputies got it out of their heads that they are the young-looking heroes coming out of the West. It is a long time since some of them came out of the West, and they should stop talking about being the Party of the rising generation. The rising generation might, before long, give them the greatest shock they ever got in their lives.

A Deputy

They might give it to the Deputy.

The Deputy is quite prepared to take the risk. The issue here is not between the young men and the greybeards. The issue is between the ratepayers and non-ratepayers. A case can be made for universal suffrage so far as Dáil elections are concerned, because the personal liberty of every individual is concerned. The personal liberty of every man and woman in this country is in the hands of this House; therefore a very strong case can be made for the proposition that every man and every woman should have a voice in the elections to this House for the protection of their personal liberty. The case of the local authority is entirely different. As I see it, the purpose of the local authority is to decide what amenities are to be made available in their own particular little community over which they have been placed, and, having made up their minds what is desirable, to decide what the people of that community can afford. Suppose the Minister had come in here and said, "We have decided that the local authorities of this country are denying to the poor in their own community the amenities that manifestly the poor are entitled to," then I think there would be a strong case. He did not attempt to make that case. He did not make it because there never was a time in the history of this country when the poor were being looked after more adequately by the local authorities than they are being looked after at the present time. No question arises of any attempt to withhold from the poorer members of the community any amenity that the local authority can possibly afford. The Minister knows that. Bear in mind that suppose, having made fair provision, the members of the local authority make up their mind that the rateable capacity of their particular county will not bear any further expenses, it is always open to the poor to write to me in Donegal, to write to Deputy Harris, to write to Deputy Kelly and say, "Certain amenities are withheld from the poor in this district on the ground that the rateable capacity of the country is no longer able to hear it. We demand that those amenities be made available, and it is your job to get them for us." It would then be our duty to come here to this House and say, "If the rates are no longer able to bear those burdens it is the duty of the Central Government to take them up." We frequently do it. The whole system of agricultural grants is based upon that very thing. Representation has been made in this House that the rateable capacity of certain areas is no longer able to provide for the poor what the poor are entitled to, and that it is the duty of the Central Government to come to the assistance of the rates and to make those amenities available to the people. They have always got them when that fair and just case has been made.

This House has never been backward in spreading the burden equally all over the community. That seems to be a sensible arrangement, and it seems to me an arrangement which is proof against any serious abuse. As Deputy Costello pointed out to-day, the tendency here and the road along which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries is progressing, though he does not know it, is to a kind of bastard federalism in this country. That is whither he is going. You will have in every county a body set up on the basis of universal suffrage which will be a challenge to the authority of this House.

The same voters will vote.

As the Deputy remarked, the same voters will vote; therefore, in County Limerick has not the county council got every sanction that this House has——

May I ask what opposition there would be if the same voters elected the county councils as elected this Dáil? Obviously there would be no opposition.

I am much flattered to have had the pleasure of giving way for the first time to the Deputy. I suggest to the Deputy that the extraordinary possibility might arise that, while President de Valera sat in one place, County Cork might remain Cumann na nGaedheal. Let us not be misunderstood. That is not a danger which is here present, or that directly flows from this Bill. I mention it in connection with the Parliamentary Secretary's observation that we are progressing. I suggest to him that that is the direction of his progress. It is a dangerous and unnecessary principle. There has been no effective indictment of the general administration of local government in this country. We have had bouquets thrown to the poor. We have had bouquets thrown to almost everybody and every thing but common sense.

A Deputy

We leave that to Deputy Dillon.

The Deputy shows strange wisdom—quite unaccustomed. It is up to us to decide what the result of this is going to be. I am convinced that the introduction of this new principle into the administration of local government is going to mean several things; first, that the administration of local affairs is going to be submerged in national politics; secondly, that you are going to constitute county councils a type of body which it was never intended that they should be; and thirdly, and this is the gravest of all, I think you are going to set on foot a system of irresponsible extravagance with public funds, which I believe will eventually force the Minister for Local Government to come into this House and announce that, in order to save the whole system of local government in this country, he will have to do away with all the county councils. For my part I would regret that. I should like to see the democratic character we have in the county councils thrive and prosper. I think that the steps that Fianna Fáil are taking are calculated to undermine it. They do a great disservice to democracy and to this country, and I believe they will expose their own Ministers, in due course, to as great humiliation as any Minister ever had to bear.

A Chinn Chomhairle, ba mhaith liom traoslú do'n Aire agus do'n Rialtas i dtaobh an Bhille seo do chur ós comhair na Dála. Tá níos mó suime agam féin i rud amháin a dhéanfaidh an Bille seo ná in aon rud eile b'fhéidir. Le blianta anuas, bhíodh múinteoirí Gaedhilge ag múineadh Gaedhilge fé na comhairlí puiblí i gcuid mhaith de na Sé Conndaethe Fichead. Tá roinnt mhaith eolais agam-sa i dtaobh conus mar a bhí an scéal ag na múinteoirí úd fé chomhairlí áirithe. Bhí dream ar na comhairlí sin a bhí go daingean láidir nimhneach i gcoinnibh teangan na hEireann agus a rinne a ndicheall chun cosc a chur le n-a múineadh fé na comhairlí áiteamhla. Chuireadar i gcoinnibh sraith fé leith do ghearradh le haghaidh múineadh na Gaedhilge agus d'eirigh leo díobháil a dhéanamh in áiteanna annso agus annsúd. Gealladh dóibh siúd go ndíolfaidís as an masla san a thugadar do'n Ghaedhilg agus tá an lá san ag teacht anois. Tá súil go ruagfaidh an dream óg a gheobhaidh guthanna de bhárr an Bhille an seana-dhream Gallda san as an saoghal puiblí go deo, rud atá tuillte go maith acu.

Im' chontae féin, tá £6,000 níos mó tugtha o Chiste an Rialtais ná mar a bailightear mar rátaí. Má tá an Rialtas ag íoc níos mó ná leath na rátaí agus má tá guthanna ag na daoine óga, chó maith leis na daoine aosta, san togha i gcóir lucht na Dála, cé'n fáth nach mbeadh guthanna ag na daoine óga i gcóir lucht na mbórd puiblí? Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an Bille seo ós ár gcomhair agus tá súil agam nach fada go gcuirfear i bhfeidhm é. Tá muinghin agam as na daoine óga. Bhí an ceart acu i 1916 agus, ó shoin i leith, bhí an ceart acu. Táthar ag cainnt go bhfuil an obair seo ro-tháchtach dóibh. Ní raibh aon obair ró-tháchtach ná ró-throm dóibh go dtí anois. Déanfaidh sé maitheas do na comhairlí agus do chúis na tíre na guthanna so do thabhairt do na daoinibh óga.

I am very pleased that Deputy Kelly, who spoke from the Fianna Fáil Benches, is now present. In his speech he stated that he was elected on a board—either a board of guardians or a district council—in his own locality, when he was 21. He expatiated on the very able and efficient manner in which he acquitted himself in that capacity. That, needless to say, I am not going to question. I am sure that he is entitled to any credit which he claimed he was entitled to. I should like to say, however, that in order that Deputy Kelly should be elected a member of a board of guardians or a district council, he had to have certain qualifications to entitle him to be elected.

Personally, I have no objection to young men being elected to local boards—none whatever—but I have decided objection to any man being placed in a position that would permit him to put his hand into the pocket of another man without having responsibility as to the manner in which money would be expended or otherwise. If Deputy Kelly entered public life when he was 21, he had a responsibility to himself, because he was either a voter or was responsible for rates and had to have a rateable qualification. That is the point on which, I think, every Deputy on this side of the House has dwelt; and I think it is a point that should be dwelt on. It is not the question of years that matters but the sense of responsibility to himself in the first instance, and to the general public in the second instance. This sense of responsibility is brought home more keenly by touching his pocket than in any other way. I have never known any man who boasts very much about his patriotism to stand that test with a total disregard of consequences. Many quaver and begin to search their pockets to see how much it will cost. In the matter of local administration you must try to realise what it is going to cost. That is the one way in which you can bring properly before your mind what it means to be a public administrator. You must set out to do your duty conscientiously to yourself and to your neighbour. You must not take liberties with the moneys of the people. You must not dive your hand into your neighbour's pockets, saying to yourself: "This is costing me nothing. I am not a ratepayer; I am a free-lance and I have no responsibility. It is not going to cost me anything and, therefore, I can afford to be generous." Doubtless any man who is not going to pay can afford to be generous.

That is a very substantial reason why irresponsible people should not have a say in public affairs. I am opposed to this Bill, not from the point of view of the age of the people who will be allowed to vote, but because I fully appreciate the grave responsibility of public bodies. This measure will permit irresponsible sections of the people to wield a big influence, and it is for that reason I hesitate to see it made operative. We were told some months ago, and the statement was never contradicted, that we were going to have the local elections on the 23rd June. Why have the Government decided to change their tactics? I do not think it will be denied that Ministers and Deputies visited the country some four or six weeks ago and, while they were there, they ascertained the views of the people. They realised then that a certain position had been created, a position which they had every right to fear. The Minister for Justice visited my county, which I have represented for upwards of 20 years. The county council there were just about to strike a rate when a message arrived informing them that conditions were going to be altered. The Cosgrave Government granted a sum of £750,000 as an agricultural grant towards the relief of rates. Of that £750,000 this Government withdrew £448,000 at the last moment.

The Deputy must not discuss the agricultural grant now.

With all respect, I must say I am merely discussing that matter in conjunction with the position now created. I am trying to adduce reasons to show why this change of front has taken place. Why has the Government run away from the position it took up?

Clearly the agricultural grant was altered by the Executive Council, but that does not influence the proposal to extend the franchise to people of a certain age.

With great respect I maintain that it affects the position that has been created. A statement was made in regard to the date when elections were to be held. What was the reason for taking £448,000 from the agricultural grant?

I cannot allow the Deputy to discuss the agricultural grant. The Deputy mentioned that a certain amount of money was paid under the Cosgrave Government, and he proceeded to indicate how much had been withdrawn by this Government. Clearly he is discussing the agricultural grant. The real point at issue here is whether the franchise should be extended to cover certain classes of citizens.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries mentioned as one of the reasons for the introduction of this Bill that the Government are advancing 50 per cent. of the money expended by public bodies. Deputy Davis is referring to the reduction in certain grants made to local authorities.

The Government claims to be a large local ratepayer at the moment. I am not concerned with that point of view at all; that does not affect the situation. Deputy Davis proceeds to argue whether it is right or wrong to withhold portion of the agricultural grant. That is clearly a thing we must not discuss at this stage.

I really had no intention of discussing the agricultural grant. I am merely proceeding to argue why an effort has been made to bring about this change in representation. I am merely pointing out that in Mayo, as a result of the reduction made in the grant, an extra rate was necessitated to the extent of 1/4 in the pound. I merely add, in that connection, that in such circumstances the Fianna Fáil Party could not with any confidence have faced the people again. I submit that that is not discussing the merits or demerits of the agricultural grant, but rather the action of the Government. They created a certain situation and I suggest that they were afraid to face the people. They want a change because, without that change, their efforts to convince the people would be futile. If they go to the people now they will get the answer that they rightly deserve.

On other occasions I have heard the commissioner system condemned. I may be reminded that there was a commissioner appointed in Mayo. I submit that the Minister opposite has appointed 36 commissioners to carry on the affairs in County Mayo. He removed me by sealed order because I would not recognise his commissioners, nor would I recognise himself. As a matter of fact, any condemnation there was of commissioners came from this side of the House. The Minister put 36 commissioners into County Mayo as against the one put there by Deputy Mulcahy. I am sure the Minister is proud of that position. I am sure he feels confident that by reason of such conduct he will be entitled to the goodwill of the people. I say that the Minister's action has brought discredit to the administration of County Mayo. We know what the rates are there to-day and what they were in 1928. I say the change has brought about a peculiar alteration in the feelings of the people. In 1928 we had a rate in Mayo of 3/2 and to-day we have a rate of 5/8. What consequent improvement has there been in the administration? What advance has been made in the way of local services? Does the Minister think the Mayo people are not taking note of all that? The people fully recognise that the Minister for Justice and another Deputy went down there quite recently in order to ascertain the feelings of the people. They selected their candidates in the town of Ballina for the county council election, but two days afterwards we had the announcement postponing the elections.

It is not the young men to whom I object. If a young man is honest and upright, I say every credit should be given to him, and I would have the greatest possible confidence in him. But, in addition to being intelligent, upright and honest he should have a sense of responsibility, and I contend that that will best be brought home to him through his own pocket. The men who pay the piper ought to call the tune.

So far as local administration is concerned this Bill is a false step. I think the Minister will some day have reason to regret this legislation. I think it is a Bill that will impose ultimately on the Minister the necessity of abolishing all local administration such as it is carried on to-day. I will hesitate before giving my consent to a measure which will leave it open to people to be so irresponsible as to carry on public affairs recklessly and bring about the ruin of their neighbours because they are in the privileged position of being able to put their hands into their neighbours' pockets. The Government have run away from the position they once took up. When the ratepayers were deprived of £448,000 Fianna Fáil people felt they could not face the electors. I say quite openly that the ratepayers were robbed of that money. At the last moment when the Estimates were made out on the basis that the agricultural grant would be the same this year as in previous years, the astounding announcement was made to them that they were going to be deprived of a big share of the agricultural grant. I say they were deliberately robbed.

I think the members of the Party opposite have the utmost audacity to imagine that they can approach the people with confidence after what the country has experienced since they undertook the administration of its affairs. They never had the full confidence of the electors of Mayo. They are under no false impression now. They know they will meet with an ignominious defeat and for that reason they thought it wise to take shelter and to seek some other method by which they will try to fool the people once more. They are now appealing to the youth. The youth are all right if they get a fair deal and an honest deal. If they are misled it is hard to blame the youth if they sometimes miscalculate and misunderstand things. The Government may deceive the people for a while, but they will not deceive them all the time. The day of reckoning will come and the people will throw them out. Never again will they receive the confidence of the electors, because they have bled them too well.

The Deputy who has just sat down has added heat to an already over-heated atmosphere. I wonder if it is in order for a Deputy, while speaking here, to take off his coat, for I feel very warm and I am inclined to take it off? Certainly Deputy Davis, by his speech, has made this place much hotter physically, but I hope not mentally. The speech made in the debate we had here some days ago by Deputy Fitzgerald, who led the Opposition, was an excellent speech. He did not want to encroach on the domain of politics. He argued from a higher plane altogether. He was followed by Deputy MacDermot, as representing the Centre Party, in a similar strain. They were both excellent speeches, and I am sorry that the debate on this Bill has now descended to Party politics. For that we must blame the Party opposite. They introduced it. They have not added much to the intellectual part of this debate by bringing politics in.

I am one of those who believe that every young man should have a vote and a wife. Both combined would soon make him a responsible person. Some people add to that that he should also have a rifle. I do not believe in rifles. I do not wish to advocate them. I am satisfied that if he had a wife, after a couple of months experience of matrimony he would not want a rifle. He would then be a sensible man and may be a beaten man without the rifle at all. I cannot understand how the Deputies opposite, having regard to what is happening at present, can argue against this Bill. At present the county councils throughout the country are defying the law and holding up the institutions of local government. They do not care twopence about providing the workmen's wages or providing for the care of the blind, the lame or the destitute. They say deliberately that they will refuse to strike a rate.

Why would not the Fianna Fáil Government take steps to prevent that in the future? They are doing that now by appealing to the responsible and proper portion of the electorate, the young people. On their shoulders must the burden for the future government of this country rest. They must be responsible for it. According to the arguments used here the old superstition, that the man who makes money and has money is the right man, seems to hold the field. We all know that old piece—I do not know whether it was a song or a poem or a catch cry, but it was about:

God bless the Squire and his relations,

And keep us in our proper stations;

For we work with heart and we work with hand,

To see that the Squire gets the fat of the land.

That is the way some people talk about the responsibility of getting money and about other people having a right to put their hands in other people's pockets and get their money. How can it be argued by a sensible and intelligent man that young people should be allowed to vote to send in Deputies here as law-makers, but refused the right of voting for the local bodies, who are to administer these laws on the local councils? That is a most illogical position to take up. If people are responsible for the making of the laws why not be responsible for the proper administration of the laws? All this talk about the ratepayers—that only the man who hands out a cheque to the rate-collector is a ratepayer is all nonsense. There are no men or women earning their bread in this country who are not ratepayers. The sooner the people opposite get that into their skulls the better.

A Deputy

They have no skulls.

Mr. Kelly

Well, may be they have no skulls. Might I produce here the estimate for the Dublin Corporation? I brought it here for the purpose of this debate and for the purpose of keeping this debate outside politics. The two Deputies of whom I spoke tried to keep this outside politics, and they gave an excellent example. Now this estimate for the Dublin Corporation is an estimate up to the 31st March, 1934. I hope I am not out of order. I see that An Leas-Cheann Comhairle is getting uneasy.

I am waiting to hear the Deputy.

Mr. Kelly

Now this is the annual estimate of the Dublin Corporation, and the sum of £1,426,635 is required to carry on the City of Dublin for the next 12 months until the 31st March next. That has to be met by amounts for the following services including finance and general purposes, public lavatories, markets, domestic water, public water, public lighting, paving cleansing, sewers and main drainage, housing, public health and tuberculosis, etc. These are the principal services. It cannot possibly be argued that any young man or any young woman has no interest whatever in these services. Do not the very circumstances of their lives intimately connect them with all these things, and are they to have no say and no responsibility for the proper carrying out of these services? Let me turn for one second to one estimate. I will take the Housing Estimate. The sum required is £90,331. The receipts from the Dublin Corporation dwellings for this year are estimated to produce £229,353. That is the sum that will probably astonish some of the Deputies here who, probably, are not aware of the extensive housing accommodation already provided by the Dublin Corporation. Of course it is only very small in comparison with the tremendous demand that still exists for housing. Young men and young women, the majority of the inhabitants of this city are compelled by the circumstances of their lives at the present moment to live in insanitary dwellings. Can you say that it is possible for these men not to feel certain responsibilities in connection with the poor and lowly, and the disgustingly dirty tenements in which they live, and that they will do nothing to help to get rid of these things? Do you not know that they will? Why not, therefore, give them the responsibility of it?

I have heard frequent references here to associations of young men and names associated with them that I certainly would not associate with them. I have heard the I.R.A. mentioned time and again. I do not know many of them, but I know some of them, and I can say unhesitatingly that they are good citizens. I know some women connected with certain associations and I know that they are excellent women doing the best of work in this city, as far as their influence and circumstances will allow. Suppose, for argument's sake, that I agreed with the statements I heard constantly made by Deputies when referring to these associations. Would it not be a good day's work, if I agreed with them, to try and bring these men out of such associations, if they are dangerous, by giving certain responsibility to them, certain power to them, certain influence to them, so that they might become useful and good citizens in the future? Will anybody gainsay that? I am perfectly certain they will not. This Bill goes a long way in that direction. I do not suggest that these men will accept the Bill from that standpoint. Many of them, unfortunately, believe that nothing good can come out of this legislative assembly. At any rate, let us make the effort to give them the responsibility of citizens, and to put upon their shoulders the duty of electing the right men to administer their city, their county, or their village, as the case may be. Having done that, we shall have done good work. Put aside your Party politics and consider the matter from that aspect, because if you do not, it can be said hereafter that an opportunity was offered here to help in that direction and that you refused it.

There are a hundred other thoughts in my mind, but I am not going to take up any more time. I have said enough. Only Deputy Dillon is gone out of the House, I would have paid him certain respects in connection with the statement he made, but I shall remember him on some other occasion. I am glad that the present Minister for Local Government has taken this opportunity of introducing this Bill. He has been long and honourably connected with the administration of the City of Dublin and, as he said himself, he took up that administration when a very young man. I think he can safely say, with those associated with him, that he and they did their best to have a clean, economic administration in this city. That is what the original Sinn Féin movement stood for and it was upon that programme that we were elected. So far as our small numbers could go, we carried out that programme up to the last measure of it. We did our work, and if the young men, who are now to receive the franchise as a result of this Bill, will take the example set them, they will, I believe, become as good, as responsible, and as patriotic citizens as the Minister.

Deputy Kelly said that politics had been introduced to this debate from this side of the House. I should like to remind the Deputy that politics were introduced into local councils by the Party to which he belongs, because they openly declared that it was their policy to get control of local government in this country, and it is because of that that this Bill is introduced. Let us be quite clear on this. The introduction of this Bill is purely a Fianna Fáil stunt. We, who have been for years in public life and taken part in public administration know what is the move behind the Bill. A Deputy from this side of the House has stated that the Fianna Fáil Party were not sure of their ground in facing the country at the coming election. The elections have been postponed. Why were they postponed? They were due to take place in June. There has been no disturbance in the country which would prevent a fair and honest election. To my mind, the writing is on the wall, and this Bill is introduced to give the vote to young men and young women, because the Government hope that they can again deceive the youth of the country and get control of the local boards, as they have got control in this House. I wonder why there is all this concern that the young men and young girls of 21 should have the vote. Have not the parents of these people the vote, and are not the youth in safe hands while their parents have the vote and the controlling power to elect people to the local bodies? No case has been made for the Bill. It cannot be compared in any way with giving votes to people to elect Deputies. The point has been made over and over again that people with the vote require to have some sense of responsibility in the spending of the rates. As a member of a public board for years, I know that it is people of mature age and good training that are the most useful on the different public boards in spending the money of the ratepayers. We should try and keep politics out of matters of this kind. To my mind, there is nothing behind this Bill except a Fianna Fáil political stunt to try to get into power again by giving votes to youthful people whom they hope they can deceive at the coming elections.

I am supporting this Bill because I believe that the one safeguard there is for the preservation of democratic government is the extension to the widest possible number of people of every possible democratic right. My only regret in the matter is that such a well-known and life-long democrat as the Minister for Local Government should have been given the unpleasant task of introducing this Bill in circumstances which suggest, to me at all events, that it is rather democracy by expediency. I would have supported the introduction of this measure 12 months ago. My only regret is that the Executive Council left it too late, almost on the eve of the local elections, to introduce it, because I think that suggests that the Government, in connection with the local elections, have been got on the run, and that this Bill is introduced for the purpose, as it were, of stemming the rout. Whether that is the purpose or not, I am satisfied that the principle enshrined in the Bill is a sound one. Even if there were no local elections, I would be prepared to support the principle of the Bill, and even be prepared to see, under this Bill, Fianna Fáil secure the monopoly of representation on the local authorities, rather than see some of the people who are on these bodies to-day control them in the manner in which they are controlling them to-day.

I am sorry Deputy Dillon has left the House. I do not know, though I listened to his speech carefully, whether he was talking on behalf of the political patriarchs of other years, or whether he was still representing the squires for whom I am afraid the Centre Party stand. The one clear thing about Deputy Dillon's speech was that it was a 100 years out of date. The same kind of speech as was made by Deputy Dillon and repeated by Deputy Davis, was made against the Reform Bill of 1832. If Deputy Davis takes the trouble to look the matter up or if some historian in his Party will spare him the trouble he will see that that is so——

I happen to know a little more about these matters than the Deputy.

If the Deputy knew very much about it he did not display his knowledge in his speech. It would appear that he has fears for the ratepayers. The same kind of speech was made over a 100 years ago and as the fears entertained over a 100 years ago proved to be groundless, so will the fears expressed to-day prove to be equally groundless. With regard to Deputy Batt O'Connor, his plea for the disfranchisement of certain classes of the people passes my comprehension unless we are to witness a sudden tearing up of some of the decent principles of the old Sinn Fein Party. Deputy Dillon and Deputy Davis made speeches in support of principles which were swept away in 1832. If this Bill gives into the hands of the plain people, not merely those endowed with wealth, but those who have no wealth, a controlling voice in local administration I believe it will do for this country a very useful thing in the development of democracy.

If one were not a supporter of this Bill, one would find it difficult to oppose it because of the speeches made in opposition to it. Not a single point of any substance has been urged in opposition to this Bill. Deputy Davis talked of 36 commissioners in Mayo as distinct from the one appointed by his own Government when in power. Deputy Dillon's speech was one long display of dramatic nonsense from beginning to end; he talked of federalism as being the end of this Bill. Did anyone ever hear such nonsense? If people can elect T.D.s by universal franchise why should not people get a voice in municipal affairs? How that affords a ground for raising a question of federalism is more than I can understand. The simple position is the Executive Council of this country seeks to give to every man and woman over 21 years of age—and that does not mean merely people of 21 years of age but people twice and three times that age—the right to elect people to the local bodies the same as they have the right to elect representatives to this Dáil. The present position is an absolute farce. Persons of 21 years of age, or persons disqualified under the Local Government Act because they have no property qualifications, can elect this Dáil. They can elect a Minister for Finance who spends 31 million pounds per year; yet this Legislature, up to the present, has set a bar to these same persons electing a man for a seat upon town commissioners where they may not spend £100 per annum. It is all right to allow them to elect to this Dáil a Minister for Local Government, but it would be ruinous to allow them to elect town commissioners who may have to spend £100 a year, though it is the height of sanity to allow the same elector to elect a Minister for Finance to this House who has the spending, as I said, of 31 million pounds per annum.

I suggest the present differentiation is clearly illogical. It has no foundation in reason or in justice. It was inherited in this country from an alien administration which could do nothing right. Deputy Batt O'Connor referred to a democratic Government's desire to set up a democratic machine. But he would be in favour of giving the vote to even the most unworthy citizen in the land, to the worst political filibusterer or to the most discreditable ward heeler, but would not give to a decent, honest, clean citizen the right to vote unless that citizen was endowed with the property qualification, and it would not matter at all where or how he got that property qualification. It did not matter though such a person might be of the most unscrupulous character, and might have misappropriated the moneys and the property he acquired so long as he did so secretly; once he had such property he becomes a local squire entitled to vote for local bodies. The clean, decent, honest citizen, who works hard for a living, but has no property, must have no vote or right to vote for local representatives in the country although he may have a cleaner, more noble and more honest interest in local administration than the squire who is well endowed with the world's goods. If there is to be any test for a vote it surely should be on the basis of the worthiness of the person and of the individual's trustworthiness as a citizen and the manner in which he conducts himself as a citizen; that kind of test apparently would be inconceivable to some people. But the idea of taking property as the only qualification of giving a vote is something that a democratic Government and democratic State should never stand for.

Deputy Dillon said that once this Bill is passed it means the coming of bad government again. Unless people have bank balances or some property they must stand down, and allow the local squire to legislate for them. The principle enshrined there embodies much of the philosophy of byegone ages and years. In this age I would not like to find myself in the Division Lobby with the Parties opposite in order to maintain that the right system of voting is right based upon property and denying to decent, honest people who have no property any voice in the local administration of the country or any say as to who should guide the destinies of local administration. Not a single member of the Party opposite gave one convincing reason why this Bill should not be accepted. It gives the farmers' sons the right to vote; it gives the squire's son the right to vote, it also gives the sons of brewers and bankers and some other people who support Cumann na nGaedheal the right to vote.

The tenement dweller has a right to vote.

Is it not as good for them as the tenement dweller to have the right to vote? There is only one explanation of the attitude of the Party opposite in regard to this Bill, and that is that they depend for support on people with a bank balance, and they believe that politically they are right in keeping the vote tied down to people with bank balances. That is the reason they are opposed to this Bill. That is the reason why they want to maintain in this country an outworn system of political representation that ought to find no place in a democratic State. I concede them a perfect understanding of their political position in the matter, but let them frankly say: "We believe that the passage of this Bill will attenuate our representation on the local authorities." That is clearly in the mind of everyone who spoke in opposition to this Bill, and their opposition is understandable. They should say that, and not try to buttress up opposition to this Bill by using democracy as an argument against it, or by pretending to shed crocodile tears over the fate of the ratepayers whose interests are affected by it. Deputy Davis said his great fear—and his voice seemed to portray his fear—was that youth would ruin the local administration of the country.

I said nothing of the kind. I said I was not afraid of young men, but that young men should have a sense of responsibility. Deputy Kelly, from your side of the House, said that he was elected at 21 years of age, and I said that to be elected then he should have certain qualifications.

That phrase will do just as well—young men should have a sense of responsibility. How many young men are on the Cork County Council to-day? What about the wrecking tactics that are going on in the Cork County Council? Is it the young men who are doing that? Was it the young men who threw 3,000 road workers out in the past fortnight? There was no responsibility there, only blind prejudice against the Government in power, an attempt to wreck local administration, and an attempt to carry on their wrecking by applying pressure to the people who would feel economic pressure most.

I am supporting this Bill because I believe it is a democratic measure; because I believe a democratic Government will only be saved by the fusion of responsibility, and by the extension of democracy. I suggest to Deputy Davis, and even to Deputy Dillon, that when the next generation comes to read their speeches on this Bill they will have just as much contempt for them as those who to-day read the speeches that were delivered in opposition to the Reform Bill of 1832.

I do not think I need say very much in winding up this debate. It appears to me that the speeches of the Opposition to a very great extent cancel out each other's arguments. I have heard members of the Opposition say that they could not have any trust in the youth that might be brought in on public boards as a result of the passage of this Bill. I have heard other members of the Opposition say that there was no trust to be placed in greybeards. There seems to be no single accepted argument, taking the opposition to this measure as a whole, that got general approval.

I can mention one if the Minister likes.

I should like to hear it.

The probability of more extravagant expenditure.

No. Even that was not stressed to any extent by those who spoke in opposition.

It was stressed by me.

I admit that possibly Deputy MacDermot had that in mind, and that certainly one other member of his Party did speak in that strain. In answer to that one argument I have only to point to the administration of Deputy Curran's own local authority. As he reminded us himself that local authority has had to be abolished more than once by the Minister for Local Government. From my own personal experience, I am satisfied that it will make for better, cleaner and more just administration to have the franchise on the same basis as for the Dáil elections. That is the result of my personal experience on local authorities. I do honestly believe that we will get more efficient, more just, cleaner and less extravagant administration from a body on which there will be a good proportion of younger men. They will come in with higher ideals; they will come in with a greater ambition to do the just, right, and proper thing than you will find as a rule in the majority of local authorities to-day. That is my belief from my own personal knowledge of the administration of local boards, which has been enhanced and increased by the experience I have had of local government administration from the Chair of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health during the last 18 months.

Deputy Norton referred to recent experience of administration by and under the bodies elected under the old franchise. We have had bodies, as he suggested, like the Cork County Council and the Dublin County Council, elected on the old franchise, with some young men, but a big majority of old men, acting in the most extravagant and irresponsible way. These are only two, but there are many other examples. There is no rule on which one could say that the local authorities will be best managed, will be most economically and justly managed if you keep out the men who are not and were not capable of being on the present Register. I am quite satisfied, as I have said, and as I should like to repeat, that, with the type of men we should and will get in on a revised and amended franchise such as we suggest, local administration will be cleaner, better, and more efficient and less extravagant.

My experience has been that many of these councils, while preaching economy and talking of extravagant rates—I don't agree that the rates are extravagant at all; Deputy MacDermot said they were altogether too high, but I do not agree—mean economy by somebody else, economy by another authority, but when it comes to individual cases put up to themselves very frequently you will find them the most extravagant people. There was scarcely a day in the week on which the Ministry of Local Government had not to check extravagance of one kind or another when certain propositions were put up to us by the bodies elected on this old franchise. There is not a day in the week on which we have not to watch carefully over them, and check their extravagance. I do not think I need argue that extravagance does not make for efficiency. There is extravagance in administration, and I believe we can have less of it under the type of councils that will be elected under the new franchise.

If I have any one apology or excuse to make to the House it is that this Bill was not introduced a year ago. I am responsible for the delay. I got instructions to have this Bill prepared, I will not say exactly a year ago, but in or about that. I had so many other things on hands that I did not have an opportunity of attending to it. It is my fault and I willingly admit it. The introduction of the Bill at this stage gives it the appearance of being brought in merely for the purpose of the local elections. The delay is something for which I owe an apology to the House.

I take it, then, that it was on the Fianna Fáil election programme?

I do not think it was mentioned in the manifesto.

Neither do I.

Certainly I got instructions more than a year ago to have it prepared.

There is another point that was stressed by Deputy Desmond Fitzgerald. I do not know that it has much connection with the Bill, but he talked about the preaching of Communism in these days and our idea of a Christian State and of upholding the Christian ideal. As I say, I do not know that we can talk about Communism in connection with this Bill at all, but I do agree to this extent, and I agree with Deputy Norton, too, where he said that one good thing would be to spread the responsibility as widely as possible, that it will have a very steadying effect on the young people of to-day who are inclined — some of them, not a very great number —to lean towards extreme views and extreme measures such as we could not approve of. I do think that giving responsibility and placing it upon the shoulders of these people, who may be made members of local authorities if this Bill passes, will have the best possible effect even from the point of view of upholding the Christian ideal and the Christian state.

I have faith in the young people. I believe that they are no less Christian than their elders and I am not a bit unhappy about the effects of this, nor am I a bit nervous about inviting a very big proportion or as many of the people of the country who will have the votes, old and young, to elect as many of the younger people as they wish to have. I think that the younger the members of the local authorities will be the more efficient and more effective they will be and the better the administration of the local authorities will be. I remember—Deputy Tom Kelly reminded me of it to-day — the first meeting of a local authority I ever attended. It was a committee of the Dublin Corporation and when I went in every man, I think, with one exception, of the committee wore a very long beard. You do not see many of them nowadays but certainly, in 1906, out of ten members of that committee nine of them wore very long beards and when I walked in they wondered what had happened. They wondered how a person looking so young, at any rate, could have been allowed in as a member of such a council. They asked the secretary how I got in, and when he told them who I was and introduced me, I was invited to sit down; but God help me if I attempted to make any suggestion—I was ready to be torn asunder. After a short period I discovered that these greybeards—they were not all greybeards but their beards were long—I had, to my mind, very little idea of the duty that devolved upon them to spend public money as they would their own.

That was the Dublin Corporation? They were notorious.

Yes, but it was the Dublin Corporation of 27 years ago. They were not so, ten or 12 years ago. My idea, and what I should like to impress upon everybody who may be a member of a local authority, is that it is the duty of every individual member of a local authority to be more careful and more conscientious in dealing with public money than he would be in dealing with his own money. I think you will get more of that ideal and of that conscientiousness among the youth—I do not say the boys and girls—than among those who have grown too old in the service of local authorities. I do not say that that is true of all the old men. Some of them I know, personally, in different counties who have given magnificent service, perhaps, for over 50 years. But it seems to me that to-day there seems to be a laxity on these boards when it is a question of dealing with public funds. I am sorry to say that during the year and a half I have been in office there is not a week in the year that I have not had to dismiss some public official. It is a very difficult thing for a Minister to have to dismiss an official who has sometimes been 30 years and more in office and with big family responsibilities.

A Deputy

Why?

For a variety of reasons, but mostly because they were dealing with public funds as they would not deal with their own. I am determined to stop that at whatever cost, and I think I will be helped in stopping looseness in administration, by members as well as by officials, by introducing new blood and a younger element into our public boards. It is in that belief and in that conviction that I am certainly strongly in favour of the passing of this Bill. I think that the results will be, not the sad prophecies made by Deputy Davis and other speakers of the calamities and disastrous things that will happen, but that in three or four years' time, when we come to judge the results, we will see that it has made for efficient and careful administration rather than for extravagance. It is in that confident belief that I ask the House to pass this measure.

Might I put one or two questions to the Minister? I am putting them in good faith. I have sympathy with what Deputy Norton said, and I thoroughly believe in bringing youth into public affairs, but I would ask is it not true that adult suffrage has proved a financial failure of very great magnitude—Parliamentary adult suffrage everywhere. I suppose that Deputy Norton would say that anyone who opposed it is an old fogey and would be laughed at, but I think it will be admitted that so far as national finances are concerned it has been a failure, and I should like to know whether there is any reason to believe that adult suffrage for local authorities will not lead to similar extravagance. Again as regards youth, is it not quite possible to get young people on county councils as things stand at present? There are plenty of young people qualified to be on these boards and why cannot they...

This is the Deputy's second speech. If I allow latitude to one Deputy I must allow it to every Deputy.

I should like to ask one question. As the law stands at present is it necessary for a person to possess property in order to qualify as a voter under the Local Government Act?

A lodger in a room.

That would not be property. They have to be rated occupiers. A man might have an unfurnished room for which he pays rent. With regard to Deputy MacDermot's point, he is anxious to raise a discussion on a question of political philosophy, and I do not think that would be in order here.

It is a question of money.

It is not a question of money. There are at least two big questions of political philosophy being discussed these days—dictatorship on the one side and democracy on the other. During the last 18 months there has hardly been a week in which I have not been discussing this matter with two friends of mine. One is a Frenchman very hostile to democracy, but still no lover of Mussolini. Another is a clergyman who takes an interest in these matters from the opposite point of view. Accordingly, I think that I am fairly well qualified to discuss it, but I do not think it is on all-fours with the question of adult suffrage. First of all, it must be remembered that there is a restriction on the local authority. There is an authority above the local authority and an authority that can and does control their expenditure of local finance.

Question put: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 49.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kelly, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Keating, John.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Tray nor; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 14th June.
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