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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 11

In Committee on Finance. - Damage to Property (Compensation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1933—Committee.

Sections 1 to 10 inclusive put and and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in any other Act, no payment shall be made after the 30th day of September, 1934, in respect of any compensation awarded by the Compensation (Ireland) Commission or by a decree made under the Principal Act, and any such compensation or part of such compensation not claimed and paid before that date shall be irrecoverable.
(2) No payment shall be made by the Minister for Finance after the 30th day of September, 1934, in respect of any loss or damage which was the subject of a report made before the passing of this Act under Section 15 of the Principal Act or under Section 5 of the Indemnity Act, 1924 (No. 40 of 1924).

I move the amendment standing in my name:

In sub-section (1), line 9, to delete the figures "1934" and substitute the following: "1939 or after three years from the date of the death of a person to whom such compensation was awarded, whichever of these dates is the earlier."

The date in respect of which it is proposed to stop any payment for compensation or any part of compensation as mentioned in the Act is 30th September, 1934. I take it that this Bill will not become law before 1st August, possibly later even than 1st August, so that normally when we are considering a question of reconstruction, restoration of damaged property or anything of that sort, that leaves very little over 12 months for the getting of plans, specifications and tenders, and the acceptance of contracts. I should say that not much more than half an ordinary building would be constructed in that time, except in the case of the smaller house. In the case of any fairly considerable dwelling house or other property of that sort it is unlikely that it would be possible to reconstruct it within the period, so that the date as it stands is not a fair date if it be simply a question of giving notice. I have had some experience of that myself, and I should say that it would take 18 months, from the time of giving instructions, to construct and go into the house. It sometimes happens that there is a lapse of time between the issue of the last certificate and the date for payment of it, and if we take that into account I should say that the period might run very close into two years. It may not absorb the whole of it, but it would certainly take 18 months to give even fair notice. If that be the intention that date is rather early.

That is not so much the subject of my amendment as the fact that in certain cases persons who own property at present may have no immediate intention of reconstruction or anything of that sort, but their heirs or successors might; or, if we were to take a more extreme case, the present conditions do not lend themselves to people making up their minds about buildings. I have put down the year 1939, which gives five years from this date. No mention has been made of any limitation during the last ten years since the first Act was passed. A limitation of time ought to be put in and I put in a period of half that which has run. The section says:

Notwithstanding anything contained in any other Act, no payment shall be made after the 30th day of September, 1934, in respect of any compensation awarded by the compensation (Ireland) Commission or by a decree made under the Principal Act, ...

This is an extension of the original Act and, so far as the necessity for reconstruction is concerned, the same principle does not run through this Act as ran through the Compensation (Ireland) Commission or the previous Act. It is not mandatory now upon reconstruction.

The Minister said the first day that reconstruction was not an essential feature. While we are giving generously with one hand, it is not good form to say in respect of other people who have been without these dwelling-houses for so long that we will only allow them to get compensation up to, but not after, the 30th September, 1934, or even part of the compensation. The other portion of the amendment deals with a case where compensation was awarded to an individual and a successor enters into possession of the property. In that case the period is limited to three years so that the successor would make up his mind within three years as to whether or not he would reconstruct the property. I think the amendment is reasonable. It is much on the lines of the suggestion I made on a previous stage of the Bill.

I do not think the Deputy is quite correct in saying this is the first time on which any mention of a definite date for the completion of reconstruction was made in the Dáil, because on 9th November, 1928, the Minister for Finance said:

"Since that date no interest has been paid, and as it has been decided by the Supreme Court that the awards are discretionary, we are considering whether it would not be proper to intimate to those who have obtained them that unless reconstruction is begun by, say, the 31st March next some proportionate deduction will be made from the amount of the award.

So far as the decrease appearing under sub-head B, for post-Truce damage, is concerned it is not possible to apply that pressure, but I think we will ultimately have to intimate that if those who hold the awards will not begin the work of reconstruction at some reasonable date it may be necessary to ask the Dáil to authorise some penalty." (Official Report, Vol. 26, cols. 1838-9).

I quite appreciate the circumstances of the case which Deputy Cosgrave is endeavouring to meet and I must say I have, personally, a good deal of sympathy with those circumstances; but at the same time, I think 1939 is much too remote a date to fix. I suggest that we might fix June of 1936, making that as the ultimate date. I would be prepared to go so far as that to meet the Deputy. It scems to me that the next successor in a case like this will have to take some steps on his own initiative to compel the reinstatement to be begun if he wishes to secure the benefit of the compensation award.

I think there is some fault with the manner in which the amendment has been drafted. As it reads, I am advised, it would make it impossible for us to pay any compensation to the successor of a person who died in 1926 or 1927. If the Deputy is satisfied to fix, say, 30th June, 1936, and if he withdraws this amendment I will bring in an amendment on the Report Stage which will include that as the ultimate date and I will endeavour to meet the position which I think he wishes to cover in the last part of the amendment. I am not certain that it is going to be easy to meet that position.

I have not disclosed to the Minister what I really had in mind. I am not certain that no matter what is done it will meet one of the cases I have in mind. The date the Minister mentioned gives 18 months in which to make up one's mind.

It gives three years.

The Minister will understand that preparing plans, specifications and all these things will take at least 18 months; that is, from the date of the order to the architect until the last certificate is paid. These certificates are paid regularly on the instruction of the architect, but I cannot remember the exact date upon which the last certificate is payable, whether it is issued when the building is completed or alternatively it may not be issued for some two or three months after the building is completed. I think that is the usual form in the case of some contracts. The person giving the order for the building runs some little risk. I think 1936 is a very early date; it really gives only 18 months. I suggest it might be extended for a year or two years. I do not think there are many cases. I think the number of cases is comparatively few.

There is one case that came under my own notice. It has reference to an insurance company. Nobody has sympathy for an insurance company, but in this particular case the insurance company, directly the damage was done—and it was done during the Black-and-Tan war—paid at once in cash. They entered into possession of the claim, went before the Commission and were awarded something like £100 less than they had paid, but with the condition of reinstatement attached. The first person who got the money built elsewhere than on the spot and up to a couple of years ago the insurance company had not got paid. I always thought that that was a very great injustice and I suggest to the Minister that if it is not settled, and I am sure he has heard of it, it ought to be settled in all decency. It is one of these cases in which it was alleged if one were to depart from strict precedent one would open the door, but in my opinion there was no precedent being established in that instance.

I should be full of sympathy with the Deputy in connection with that hard case if he had only dealt with it under his own administration. Why should we have to be so generous?

It did not come before me. As a matter of fact, it was a member of the Minister's Party who was, perhaps, the blunderer in the case.

I do not know what the position may be.

The Minister will find that that is correct, if he will make inquiries.

Where my predecessor created sound precedents I am very anxious to follow them. I am not certain that this was a doubtful precedent and I am not too sure that it ought to be departed from.

I thought we had nothing but sympathy, judging by the Minister's speech, but I now find it is reserved.

I know of one very substantial case which the Deputy possibly has in mind. It was referred to here in a general way. I do say the circumstances in that case deserve sympathetic consideration. We all know what the circumstances are. I am not certain that in the other case there is the same ground for sympathy. As to the particular cases, there are 84 of them. In 18 of these reinstatement has already commenced. In the remaining 66 nothing so far has been done. The amount of money involved is considerable—over £90,000. As the Minister for Finance indicated in 1928 a considerable time has elapsed since the awards were made to those persons. Involved in that is that the contemplated reinstatement must be on the plan made some time ago, and consequently, the extension I now propose to meet, the position the Deputy has put before the House would represent a concession of nearly three years.

Eighteen months, allowing for the building.

Possibly the present terms of the section might be amended to make the three years the nett time at the disposal of the persons compelled to build. As the section stands at present, it would mean three years would have to cover claiming of the payment of the award. I think that is as far as I can go to meet the Deputy and I feel that I am even straining the position to do that. If the Deputy withdraws the amendment I will bring in an amendment that will extend the time to three years and make it really available to the claimants for reinstatement and endeavour to meet the situation which is covered in the last point of the amendment.

There is a point that ought not to be overlooked in connection with this sum of money. If it were 66 cases it would mean £65,000 or less. If by reason of that investment people are induced to remain here spending several hundred pounds a year it would be a good investment. That was a part of these reinstatement conditions. That seems to be harsh. Even if these large sums have to be insured the spending of that money, apart altogether from income tax, is a sound proposition.

Again the Deputy says that the one thing that is going to ensure the spending of the money is the fear that if it is not spent in a definite period the claimant would lose the title to it altogether. That is one of the reasons that actuated the then Minister for Finance when he made the statement to the House to which I have referred.

The statement the Minister for Finance made at that time was just the same as an after dinner speech. No statement made by a Minister is worth the paper it is written on unless translated into a statute. The fact of the matter is we are asked now to accept the philosophy of fear as making people do certain things, though from the same group we get denunciations of the policy of fear in connection with other matters.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 11, 12 and 13 agreed to and added to the Bill.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendments.
Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, July 5th.
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