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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 14 Jul 1933

Vol. 48 No. 19

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 56—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £71,577 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlítheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.
That a sum not exceeding £71,577 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Having reviewed certain aspects of the industrial situation, we were discussing the disclosed dissatisfaction with industrial development in this country expressed by the President. The information that we have before us shows that, so far from marking any definite satisfactory increase in employment, or any definite establishment of sound new industrial development in the country, the statements made from time to time by the Minister for Industry and Commerce have been more or less like the whistling of a person passing a churchyard. In the statement made by him in connection with the discussions on the Budget, he told us there had been more industrial, national and economical development during the previous 12 months than there had been for the 50 years before that. I have pointed out that, having either suppressed or deliberately decided not to collect information with regard to employment in these industries tariffed during the previous administration, and having published figures then for the 1st March last, these figures disclosed that there has been an addition to employment of 1,600 persons in the aggregate of these industries over a period of 18 months.

I pointed out that in six months in 1929 there were 2,400 additional persons employed. But going back for five years to the middle of 1925 and taking from the middle of 1925 on to the last date for which figures were available, 1st September, 1931, we see there has been yearly during that period an increase in employment in these industries that are referred to of 2,000 persons. We have seen that while elaborate statements have been made as to the additions made in the confectionery industry, where employment was stated to have been doubled and output more than doubled, we are left with a position in which there has been added to an industry that gave employment to more than 5,000 people, simply 150 persons. Generally the Minister's statements have been utterly unfounded and we must only take it that he was aware when he was making these statements of the position that the figures now disclose.

The President stated in Kilkenny that he is not satisfied with the way in which things are going and the alternative now promised to us is that local authorities must take some steps to see that industries are developed in their areas. I have asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he, following the failure of the Minister for Local Government to do so, will tell us what urban or other local authorities can do to see that industries are established in their areas. There is one thing more than another that is, to my mind, shaking the confidence of the people who would invest in some of the smaller industries. I quite agree that another thing that is probably arresting development here is all the big talk about big money that we are hearing at the present moment in connection with the Industrial Credit Bill; all the talk about the development of large industries in this country. That is to some extent arresting investment by Irish people in the smaller industries here. I do not say that it will induce them, when they come to think over it, to invest in these big industries, because a lot more will have to be considered about these things before the company which is being talked about this morning will get to work.

Ministers have, through their Press, been pointing out how other countries do things. We are told in their Press that every new acre of wheat that was grown in Italy was propaganded to the people throughout the whole of Italy. But as regards every new industry that is set up here, not only is it not propaganded, but, if we ask for particulars as to how industrial development is going, we are refused any information good, bad or indifferent about it. I was induced, in the beginning of this year, to ask certain questions with regard to the development of industry. I thought to find out something about the furniture industry. I was told seven additional furniture factories have been erected in Dublin City, but I was not given any more information. The same way with the upholstery industry—I was told there was one factory in Navan and three additional factories in Dublin. That was at the end of March last, but then information began to dry up and in April I was not offered any information in regard to several other industries.

I would not be told, for instance, where the two new coach-building factories mentioned by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as having been opened were located; I would not be told where the 42 new packing factories stated by him to have been opened since March were erected; I would not be told where the two new factories for galvanised hollow-ware were located; where the new factory for gutters and rain-water pipes was situated; where was the location of the new glass bottle factory; where were the four new confectioneries which he stated on the 13th January had been opened since March, 1932; where were the two new factories for brushes and brooms situated; the location of the two new bakeries; where was the new factory for egg cases and fillers; the two new factories for medical and veterinary preparations; the two new factories for baking powder; the two new maize-meal factories; the new bacon-curing factory; the new factory for metallic badges, medals, etc.; the new sheet metal works; the location of the new factory for concrete sanitary pipes; the location of the new cord and twins factory; the new factory for hay rakes; the location of the new factory for paints; the new factory for plaster slabs; the two new factories for spades and shovels; the location of each of the four new paper bags and printing works; the location of the new factory for barbed-wire; the three new factories for cycle assembly; the location of each of the two new sawmills; the location of the new factory for mastic ashphalt and the new factory for chassis assembly.

Not only could I not be told to whom these belong, what money was in them, and what employment was given in them, but I would not be told where they were, for the reason given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that it was undesirable to do so in the interests of the people connected with these factories, and having regard to the interests of persons concerned with other factories of the same kind. There is a discrimination apparently on the part of the Minister, because when a new sausage factory was being set up—I admit it was a factory for the manufacture of Viennese sausages—a month previously, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was prepared to tell the whole world about it, by photograph, by speech, by going down to Naas with the nearest thing to a tall hat that he had, and, with great State ceremony, starting the factory and telling the whole world about it. While this House cannot be told even where the new factories for the manufacture of spades and shovels are, where the new factories for the manufacture of hay rakes are, not to speak about who it is that is running them and how many persons are employed, we are told in the Irish Press of February 17th, that there is a great new Viennese sausage factory being established at Naas. We are told what its production is going to be, ten tons of sausages every week. We got a detailed description of them. There are to be fifty different varieties of sausages. We are told with regard to their great export market, an export trade is to be opened up with France, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium. We are told what the prospects are of establishing additional industries around that sausage factory. We are told that there is going to be a development of that sausage factory; that there is going to be a tanning factory developed from it. A tanning factory is going to be one of the by-products of the new sausage factory that is being set up in Naas. We are told the amount of employment that is going to be given there. Thirty local men will be employed. We are told whom it belongs to. We are told the reasons why the Minister gives all this great publicity to this new factory, a publicity that is completely denied in every detail—in so far as information asked for in this House may be regarded as publicity—when it is a question of spades and shovels, or when it is a question of hay rakes. We are told that the reason why the Minister puts on the next thing he has to a tall hat, and goes down and spends part of the day at Naas, and makes speeches and gets photographs taken, is because of the enterprise of the people who started that factory; secondly, because it will relieve unemployment in Naas by employing, as we are told, thirty local men; and thirdly, because his friend and colleague, Mr. Briscoe, was associated with it. We have had recently to complain that we are denied information as to who are the people connected, say, with the new furniture industries here. We are told that all that is to be examined by the Minister under the Control of Manufactures Act. We are told that informing us as to where the new hay rakes are manufactured would interfere with the interests of the people in this country who are already manufacturing hay rakes. On the other hand, we are told all about this factory. Deputy Briscoe is associated with it, Mr. A. Caplan, and two Mr. Witstuns. The Supervisor in the factory is Franz Vogel.

A Deputy

They must be all congests.

Here we have a factory opened by the Minister himself, with all this elaborate information given. This factory was opened with "stunts" but the other factories are not only opened without "stunts" but we are to get no information about them at all. I have to ask the Minister in the first place why this discrimination? Why is information refused here with regard to industrial development, when we can have the information given in this particular way with regard to other factories that are set up here.

I should like to ask the Minister, who is responsible for the establishment of public confidence in the development of industry here, what responsibility he has when a factory such as the Naas factory is set up, for seeing that it is conducted upon sound lines, and not upon lines which shake the confidence of every class of person in this country in the development of industry with which the present Ministry is associated. Can the Minister for Industry and Commerce leave Naas, and wash his hands completely of the factory and everything that is connected with it down there?

I should like to ask, a Chinn Comhairle, as the Deputy's remarks may give a wrong impression to the public, what is the meaning of the interpolation to the Ministry as regards his seeing how things are done in the Naas factory. I think that when discussing enterprises, be it the Naas factory or any other enterprise, Deputies should realise that the persons in charge of them have not an opportunity of replying here. If the Minister has responsibility in regard to this particular matter I wish the Deputy would make it quite clear what the particular responsibility he refers to is.

The Deputy has made no charge against the management of that factory. He has asked questions, but it is not for the Chair to interpret what the Deputy means.

Given a Viennese sausage factory on the one hand, opened by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and in respect of which we are given all this elaborate information; and given an ordinary hay rake factory on the other hand, not opened by the Minister, and in respect of which even the location is denied as a matter of information to Deputies in this House, I am asking whether it means that the Minister is accepting responsibility with regard to the management of a factory like the one in Naas, either as an ideal as to how factories should be managed in this country, or in any other way does he associate himself with that particular factory, or suggest to people that it is more worthy of their confidence for investing in or for trading with than those factories in respect of which he is refusing us information? I would assure the Minister, if he thinks that that is a question lightly asked, that it is nothing of the sort. I suggest that the person who is responsible for the development of industry in this country, who tells us in his Estimate that the cost of the trade and industries section of his Department is going up from £22,000 to £33,000, should take some responsibility on himself, and ask himself why this differentiation. He should ask himself whether it implies anything to the ordinary investing people or to the ordinary trading people that he should associate himself so prominently with some factories, and if so, whether if—by investing in the company or if by trading with such company—they meet any losses he is completely devoid of responsibility in this matter. If he does feel that he is completely devoid of responsibility towards those people then he ought to say so. The matter ought not to be left in the position in which it is at the present moment. This House is entitled to some information as to why some industries are opened in this particular way, with this Ministerial giving of information, while other industries which are just as necessary in this country as additional sausage making factories are to be completely ignored by the Minister, even when information is asked for in a reasonable and systematic way by Deputies in this House.

The Minister has taken exception to Deputies asking him for information. The Minister, in column 2576 of the Official Debates of the 6th April. said:

"I suggest to the Deputy that his main anxiety in this matter is that the success which has attended the Government's industrial policy has ruined the political prospects of his Party."

Again he stated, in column 908 of the Official Debates of the 11th May:

"The main design behind those questions is to convey the idea that the industrial development which we assert is taking place is only mythical."

Now, that is not in any way the anxiety of Deputies who ask questions about industrial development in this country. Long before the members of the other side realised the necessity for industrial development here, members on this side were actively engaged in endeavouring to develop Irish industry, and, in regard to the special set of industries which I asked the Minister questions about the other day, had succeeded in carrying out and sustaining development in that set of industries to the extent that during the last five years before we left office there was an increased employment of two thousand persons per annum in those industries.

The Minister now, deliberately hiding information as to the employment in those industries for the first eighteen months of his period of office, and challenging the bona fide interest of Deputies when asking those questions, gives us, not the information which he promised, in report form, but information dragged from him by questions, which shows that in those particular industries for a period of 18 months there has been an addition of simply 1,689 persons, and that in some of them, particularly the tobacco industry, the soap and candles industry, the brush-making industry, and more particularly, in the men's clothing industry and the furniture-making industry, there has been a very definite set-back to satisfactory development.

The Minister's Party, before the last election, promised that their policy would mean continuous well-paid employment, the ending of the downward pressure in wages rates, a better standard of living, better houses, better food, and better clothes. Will the Minister tell us—particularly in reference to some developments that have been taking place here in this State, to development that has been taking place, say, in the Wexford County Council, where men who have been in continuous employment have been paid off to make room for casuals —if the policy being pursued by his Department is keeping up continuous well-paid employment? Does he not realise that the very steps that were proposed to be taken here, and that, in fact, are being taken in County Wexford, are not only endangering the security of persons in employment, which the Minister's Party said they would maintain, but are preventing employment being continuous and are increasing any downward tendency in wages rates.

We, therefore, ask the Minister to drop the attitude he has taken up in this House with regard to the non-supplying of information; to drop the attitude he has taken up with regard to Deputies, that because they ask questions about industrial development here they are not concerned with industrial development; to give us the things he promised; to give us a review of unemployment in the country; to let us know when we may expect the directory of Irish manufactures that he has promised us, in connection with which he told us that his main difficulty was that industry was developing so rapidly here that the directory was out of date from day to day. When can we have these? We want to hear something from the Minister as to what his main actions have been, and what the actions of this staff, the cost of which is increased by £10,000 annually, have been, to increase industrial development here under the enormous powers that have been given to the Minister under the various pieces of legislation which he has passed through this House, allegedly for the purpose of developing Irish industry during the last 12 months at least.

The Minister again, I say, promised us that he would let us have an analysis of the unemployment position as disclosed by his weekly returns of employment. The Minister told us the other day that he does not propose to give it. We want to know why? The last return of unemployment which the Minister has made available for us is a return for the week ended 26th June. He gives us the total number of persons registered on that date in the 98 centres. In 42 of these centres the total number of persons unemployed has increased as against the previous week. On a previous occasion here, and in discussions arising out of which the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that he would make this analysis of unemployment available, I pointed out that whereas he claimed that a considerable reduction had taken place in the number of persons registered as unemployed from the beginning of January to the date he was speaking about, that by far the greater part of that fall in unemployment had taken place in the NorthWest of the country, in a sector bounded by lines drawn from Innishowen, in County Donegal, to Ballingar, in Galway, and that there had been comparatively little reduction in the Leinster area, where our town populations are. We wanted some explanation of it. The Minister's explanation was that they had been found employment though it had indicated somewhat sectional, seasonal, fluctuations. This report of the 26th June discloses to us somewhat the same position—that if we take the areas in the east of the country whose centres are Carlow, Drogheda, Dublin, Dundalk, Dun Laoghaire, Kilkenny and Wexford, we have a fall in the number of unemployed persons there of 7,900. But if we take the other sector that I spoke about, the fall from the beginning of January to June is 23,000, with this remarkable difference, too, that the number of persons unemployed in that Eastern area was 4,172 more than they were at the same date last year, whereas the number of persons registered as unemployed in the NorthWestern sector is 6,225 less. Now the Minister will remember, apart altogether from the position that it was desirable that this House should understand something about what these figures represent, that this House would know what are the factors of definite interest. As the Minister for Industry and Commerce says, they are associated with the analysis of these figures. Apart from that, the Minister is aware that it was stated last year that the sums voted for the relief of unemployment would be expended in the country bearing some relation to the number of persons registered in different parts as unemployed, and that for that purpose he was using the labour exchanges. He stated on the 3rd of November last, in Column 1097 of Volume 44 of the Official Debates:

"We insist in every case in which work has been given, that is, work provided out of the State funds, that the workers would be selected through the employment exchanges, that the manager of the employment exchanges is to select the people who are to do that work and the manager does select these people."

That was on the 3rd of November last. The Minister insisted on persons employed at work in connection with which Governments funds were provided that they should be employed through the labour exchanges. I had occasion a few days afterwards, by the end of the month, to draw attention to what was happening in Mayo, and the Minister for Local Government said he was enquiring into the matter. The circumstances are briefly summarised in column 499 of volume 45 for the 30th of November, 1932. I said:—

"This is the position you have: money is being wasted"—(according to the report of the county surveyor who reported very fully to the county council on the matter)—"to the extent, according to the county surveyor, of 40 per cent.; men who were in ordinary and continuous employment under the county council have been dismissed; men have been taken on purely political grounds; men have forced themselves into the employment of the county council without reference to anyone, and the whole scheme of controlling employment through the labour exchanges and the scheme of giving preference to persons according to their necessity has gone by the board in the interests of the Fianna Fáil clubs."

Nevertheless the Minister insisted that employment would be controlled through the labour exchanges. We had a rather remarkable disclosure the other day by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance that the Minister's scheme had, in fact, gone by the board in certain counties; that as late as the 7th of July the Minister for Industry and Commerce was not exercising the "insistence" which it was decided by him would be maintained in the selection of persons going on to relief works. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance on the 7th July, as reported in column 2022 of the Official Debates, a question on the matter. I said:—

"The Parliamentary Secretary has made a statement now which, as far as I know, is entirely contrary to any statement we had before. The statements we have had up to the present are that persons employed on relief works, or on schemes on which Government money is spent, must be employed through the labour exchanges. I understand, we are told by the Parliamentary Secretary that that is not necessary in Mayo."

The Parliamentary Secretary told me that he "heard me distinctly and understood me correctly." So that we have had a position then in which the numbers of persons registered as unemployed in certain areas were last year enormously increased. The relief grants were apparently distributed on that basis of persons employed on those grants not being selected by the labour exchange, not being selected by the county surveyors but being selected by the local Fianna Fáil clubs, marching to the jobs and starting work there, because the county surveyor of Mayo reported that men came on to jobs and started work that he had given no permission for at all. The sequel to that is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce waives in respect of the County Mayo the regulations that he had introduced for getting men through the local labour exchanges——

And that is copied elsewhere now.

Yes, the example is picked up elsewhere, and as Deputy MacEoin points out the victory won in Mayo by the Fianna Fáil clubs is heard all throughout the country, so that you have in Longford a position in which the Secretary of the Fianna Fáil club has, as late as the 7th of May, addressed a communication to the assistant county surveyor stating:—

"It was the unanimous vote of the club that the carters be taken from the following list for quarry work in carting:—Pat Farrelly, William Farrell, Jim Ward, Pat Ryan, Bernie Reynolds, Pat Farrell, Thomas Bannon, William Kienan, and Peter McLoughlin."

The notice to the assistant county surveyor is sent by S. O'Cellaigh. I do not think that the signature is that of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, because the word "Secretary" follows and the notice is headed "Ardagh Cumann" and dated 7th May, 1933. Again on the same date a further note is sent by the Longford Cumann following the great victory in Mayo. This note from the same Cumann says:—

"Have full list of men selected from the following names for quarry work and stonebreaking:—Pat Rogers, Thomas Farrell, P. Curley, Mike Kennedy, Mick Clyne, P. Partridge, Michael Rogers, Joe O'Neill, Mick Kiernan, Jim Kenny, Charles Nolan, Jim Gilchrist, Mick Reilly, Thomas Larkin, Michael Keogh, John Mulryan, John Mulryan, Thomas Mulryan, James Grehan, Owen Heaney, John Stahem, John McDermott, Thomas McDermott, Joe O'Hara, James McDermott, Walter Scott, Bill Ryan, Jim Gill, James Grehan, Pat McDermott, John Cox, and Andrew Cox, Peter Dennigan, Bernard Kelly, John Victory, John Farrelly, Peter Doyle, Pat Doyle, Thomas Farrell, Jim O'Hara, Mick Gill."

They gave him a good selection.

This note is signed by "S. O Ceallaigh, Secretary." Again I think it is not from the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, because the note is headed "Ardagh Cumann."

The whole parish is in that club.

It must be. At any rate if their sisters and daughters and aunts are not included, their uncles and nephews and cousins are. But here we have a situation in which this House is definitely told that the figures that we have been given week by week are definite figures of the unemployed position, the first obtained at any rate in this decade by either the House or country. We are told that the moneys voted by this House are spent on the basis of the distribution of these figures. We know that the figures in certain years in towns like Athlone, Mullingar, Tullamore, Roscommon which rose from 1,565 in May, to 13,904 in December have since gone down. The figures registered for unemployment relief grant are important. The rise at the period is not because selection is made by the labour exchange, after the assault made on the system of the county surveyor of the Mayo County Council, and enquiry was made into it by the Local Government Department as we heard here.

This is not a Vote for the Local Government Department.

No. It is a Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce, and the Minister of that Department insisted that employment should be through the Labour Exchange. After the assault on that system by the Fianna Fáil clubs in Mayo, we were told, most casually a week ago by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, that that system is scrapped in Mayo. Has it been scrapped in Longford, and will the Minister tell us where else it has been scrapped? Will he tell us exactly what he is doing to keep his word that his machinery will see that the moneys voted for relief works are to be spent in a systematic and non-party way? Will he tell us the number of orders in which he has withdrawn his insistence that the scheme be run in a particular way, and the number in which his scheme is still insisted on? The Minister will remember that definite objections of a reasonable kind have been made by persons who know something of the working of county councils, and of the duties and responsibilities of county surveyors. Their work has, in certain years, been interfered with by a system insisted upon. We want to know why a scheme is insisted upon in certain counties and not in others.

Every one of these things are matters of importance in this House and in the country. Again I think it is an extraordinary and discreditable thing as suggested to us that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is as much ashamed of the results obtained from the discharge of his duties during the past 12 months as is the Minister for Agriculture with the results that have accrued in the country because of the way his work has been carried out. If it is unfair to the Minister, and to the results that his Department has been able to show, I think we ought to hear, and at a certain amount of length, from the Minister the cause of the situation at the present time, and why it is that there is no confidence in the people whose efforts could be kept warm and helpful, to assist in the development of Irish industry.

Is the Deputy referring to the Opposition.

I am referring to every section of the people of the country. There are the working classes who are without employment at the present moment. They are without continuous employment and are not given casual employment, and are trying to make up their minds whether they can drag on a life of hope held out to them, or whether they will have to take their own action, and see whether a change cannot be brought about by their own action, which will not be brought about by the present system of monopoly by the Government.

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