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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 1933

Vol. 49 No. 17

Private Deputies' Business. - Relief of Rates on Agricultural Land.

I move the motion which stands in my name and the names of Deputies O'Higgins and Minch:—

That the Dáil condemns the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land.

I want to remind the few Deputies on the opposite benches that they cannot always promise and never fulfil. You can fool all the people some of the time but you cannot fool all the people all of the time. The President has got a long innings in fooling a lot of the people, but he is now nearly caged. On the eve of his getting power in a free election by the manhood and womanhood suffrage of the State that he had endeavoured to destroy by force of arms, he made a promise to the people that, if returned to office, he would derate the agricultural land. That was a political contract which was dishonoured the moment the President got power, and still stands dishonoured, to his everlasting discredit and the discredit of the Ministery he presides over. Together with that propaganda, he got into office on the cry "No coercion and release the prisoners." I stand here as a Deputy elected by the independent courageous voters of North City, who were not afraid to vote for me and my colleagues even though they were terrorised by gangs coming out of the election offices of Fianna Fáil in North City. The very act condemned by the President, his colleagues and his whole Party——

We are now travelling a bit from the motion. This is a motion condemning the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land. We are not discussing any other act of the Government, and we are certainly not discussing the particular act to which the Deputy is referring.

I want to outline the setting in which the Government found themselves and what I might call the gentleman's undertaking they had given the country, the political contract that was sanctioned by the country, on the one part, and President de Valera and the Fianna Fáil Party on the other part, not to increase the burden on agricultural land, but to wipe out that burden altogether. On that political contract the President got elected to power and that political contract he broke. If that were a legal contract the electors of this country would have a cause of action against the President and his Ministry. But there is no legal contract. The people, when they gave their votes, gave all they possessed to designate their citizenship in their native land; handed it over to President de Valera and his Party and handed it over to see it dishonoured since. When the present Government came into power over one and a half years ago they found the grants to agriculture for relief of rates made up of an original grant of about £600,000, which was able to be doubled in 1924 by the previous administration, and in 1931 the previous administration increased that grant by £750,000. At that time, President de Valera and his colleagues were very eloquent in this House and throughout the country in declaring that that was inadequate, that agriculture wanted more help than that. President de Valera at that time moved in this House a resolution that the increase in the agricultural grant should be £1,000,000 at least. The Cosgrave administration gave further relief to the extent of £750,000. That was not acceptable to the farming community. What was the reply of the Cosgrave administration to the dissatisfaction of the farming community and to the query that was raised as to what was going to be done with the produce of the taxation imposed to finance that further agricultural grant? The taxes imposed, speaking from memory —I have not my papers with me, as I had to come here direct from one of the President's coercion courts and I have not all the detailed references that I should like to have in reference to this, but I hope to be able to give them before the close of this debate—included 6d. in the £ on income tax, 4d. on petrol, and a halfpenny, I think, on sugar. I do not know if there was anything else. Anyway, at the time I remember calculating what the produce of this taxation would be for 12 months and it amounted to somewhere between £1,100,000 and £1,200,000 annually. A query was put to the previous administration as to what they were going to do with the profit they were going to make out of this new taxation, out of which they were only earmarking £750,000 for the relief of rates on agricultural land. The reply given was a reasonable one. The agricultural community, who put up the query, were informed by the Executive Council of the day that for the financial year 1931-2 these taxes would not be producing for 12 months, but that they would be producing for a period that would give approximately only £750,000. That was a fairly sound answer. In the following year these taxes were producing for 12 months. President de Valera and his Government inherited the produce of this taxation for 12 months, which amounted to between £1,100,000 and £1,200,000 paid into the Central Fund. But President de Valera did not see fit to have the same mentality as he had the year previously and give to suffering agriculture the relief that he said in 1931 was necessary to keep the life in agriculture. It shows that the President in this matter, as in every other matter that he ever took up, had no regard for the interests of this country but was only playing politics.

Anybody who follows the trend of prices knows that agriculture in this country, and probably all over the world, was more depressed in the beginning of 1932 by many points than it was in the beginning of 1931. Perhaps I would not be overstating the case if I took the President's basis as the proper basis to work upon. From the further depression that came over agriculture in 12 months, assuming that it was absolutely essential to keep agriculture on a certain standard in 1931, assuming that it required relief from the Central Fund to the extent of £1,000,000 to keep up the same standard in 1932, it would require relief to the extent of £1,500,000. The predecessors of the present Government relieved agriculture to the tune of £750,000 out of special taxation from which they had practically no more produce than that. But the President inherited a produce of about £1,200,000 out of that taxation and he gave only £750,000—the previous grant. Then he introduced a sum of £250,000 to be given for the derating of agriculture on farms up to £10 valuation— another vote-catching device of the President. Political propaganda was made out of this—political propaganda that the President had redeemed his promise or his outlook on the agricultural situation of the year before, but he did not make clear to the country and to this House that he had more than that, that he had about £200,000 more than that profit out of the very taxation that the previous Administration had imposed on this country. His colleagues went around the country shedding crocodile tears over the condition of agriculture for the last couple of years. Three years ago the Minister for Education, in long and wordy letters to the Carlow Nationalist, gave the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party on this matter of derating. Because I had another engagement to-day, and had to come direct here from that engagement I have not those letters, but I will be able to quote them before the close of the debate on this motion. If the Minister for Education has to eat his words I hope he will eat them to the accompaniment of more courteous language than he used in writing those letters.

Now we come on a little further in last year, and the President, in effect, said to the country: "Those people who took up the Treaty and worked it let down the farmers of this country by agreeing to pay a tribute of £5,000,000 to England, but we will not pay that tribute any longer." The President is a mathematician. I have been only a student of mathematics; I have never been a professor of mathematics. If the President's knowledge of mathematics is to be measured by the deductions which can be made from his public utterances when he tries to fool the people of this country into believing that under his Administration this tribute, as he calls it, of £5,000,000 to England is not being paid, then the President should go back and start studying rather than professing mathematics. We have all been in the firing-line of agriculture. To use a picturesque phrase of the President himself, we farmers who have been in the front trenches in this economic war are getting nearly tired of it. We have come out of the trenches; we have come over the top; and we are going to advance, not to recede, in spite of the President's Coercion Acts. Let him remember that the day of back-room politics in this country has gone. We are going to defend our rights, our homes, the homes of our children and the homes of our ancestors in this country against any scheming politicians, whether those politicians invoke Coercion Acts or whether they do not. The people of this country are not going to be fooled by professional politicians for ever. The Front Bench is beginning to recognise that the man behind the plough, the man in the factory, the man behind the counter, the man who is working, is the man who is running this country, and that on him the future of this country must depend. If he stops working, the jobs of the professional politicians will become very precarious; but he has not made up his mind to stop working, neither has he nor any self-respecting citizen of this country, in working out their salvation, made any decision or organised any association to disobey the law of this country. We will leave that to those professional politicians who challenged the will of the people in this country and are sufficiently hypocritical now to come out as the champions of the will of the majority— people who never respected the majority in this country, and would not respect it now only that they think they have it for the time being. The majority in this country wanted derating. They were told: "Give us your votes and we will give it to you. We will give you derating"; but they did not get derating when they gave their votes. They got the gall and wormwood so dear to the heart of the President. He may smile, but the honest farmer who wants to pay his way and cannot pay it, and who gets nothing from President de Valera but coercion, cannot smile to-day. He has never drawn a salary out of politics. He has had to work for his living. Those people can smile who have done better in politics than they ever did or were able to do in their professions.

We saw the 1st July coming last year, and we saw a tariff of 20 per cent. put on agricultural produce going into England. The people were told: "Do not sell your stock. This is only a passing thing. We will win." About the month of August our enterprising Minister for Agriculture stated at a public meeting "Not only will we win but we have won." He said that England was crawling to us. Have we won? No, but another 20 per cent. was put on. The people who were told to hold out in the month of July held out to have another 20 per cent. clapped on. Of course we have flippant loud speakers coming in here saying that all the evil forebodings of the Opposition Party have not fructified. A gentleman of leisure who hailed over here from Liverpool can come in and dance around on those benches opposite, and talk lightly of the sufferings of the people of this country, but he will not trust even his little bank account in this country.

I have given the Deputy a great deal of latitude, but I am certainly not going to allow him to indulge in personalities regarding any member of this House, no matter on which side that member sits. Further, I am not going to allow him to traverse the whole ground of the economic war all over again.

Has not the member to whom the Deputy refers frequently indulged in personalities in this House, and not been called upon——

I am sure the Deputy will agree that, even if that member has indulged in personalities, two wrongs do not constitute a right. I am sure he will agree that that Deputy should not have indulged in personalities.

I beg to remind the Leas-Cheann Comhairle that on a certain occasion he referred to——

The Deputy will sit down.

In the interests of fair play——

The Deputy will sit down.

One law for one, and a different law for another is not fair play.

Is the Deputy alleging that the Chair is not dealing fair play, as it understands it, to every Deputy?

I am suggesting that Deputy Belton was quite in order in referring to a speech made here some days ago, when the Deputy to whom he refers became most personal, abusive and vulgar.

That Deputy is not here now.

You are here.

If Deputy Anthony does not want to obey the Chair——

I want to obey, sir, and always did.

The Deputy knows there is a perfectly well-established way of discussing the ruling of the Chair, if that is desired, but it is not in this ad hoc fashion that I can allow it.

I suggest, sir, that Deputy Anthony might withdraw the statement he made when he said there was one law for one and another law for another with reference to the occupant of the Chair.

I did not hear Deputy Anthony make any such statement. I heard him say that there ought not to be one law for one and another for another.

Quite a different thing.

I did not catch the statement. If I did I would ask Deputy Anthony to withdraw it.

I am cute enough to avoid getting foul of the Chair.

I was referring to no matter that had not a direct bearing on the economic situation of this country, which situation is predominantly an agricultural situation. In fact, I was not venturing in on the industrial field at all. As you will remember, my starting point was the condition of agriculture in 1931, the measures that the previous administration considered should be taken, having regard to the resources of the country, to help that situation, the measures that the then Opposition, and now the Government of this country for the last year and a half, considered should have been taken in that year, having regard to the resources of the country. I mentioned what the previous administration did and the taxes it imposed. These taxes were not producing for the whole of the year. The next year they would be producing and did produce for the whole of the last financial year. The Central Fund had the benefit of those taxes and, I submit, made a profit out of that taxation of about £200,000 over and above what it agreed to give to agriculture last year, notwithstanding the propaganda that they had increased the grant for relief of rates on agricultural land by £250,000. My line of argument is that you must correlate the amount of grant to the general economic situation. For instance, we could have an economic situation here and get no grant and be better off than if we got complete derating. But I want to move on parallel lines that the economic situation generally was worse last year than the previous year, is still worse this year than last year, and that further depression is further accentuated by the artificial depression produced by the present Government, namely, the economic war. As to the results of that economic war, if we are to accept as approximately accurate 50 per cent. of the case made by the Fianna Fáil Party in 1931, then, agriculture should be eliminated altogether in the present circumstances and conditions from our entire economy. We know that we lost £15,000,000 or £16,000,000 in our export trade—agricultural produce— all that stuff thrown back into this market here and the price in the home market aggregating that amount. In other words, agriculture lost an income of £15,000,000 or £16,000,000. In addition to that, England confiscated out of the agricultural produce that was exported sufficient to pay the annuities and other pensions and local loans that the President and his Ministers are stumping the country and fooling the people about, giving out false propaganda that we will pay these sums no longer.

I will give one instance, and one instance only. There was a very famous sale carried out a few days ago in which six cattle were bought for export for £14, and the purchaser who was provided by the Attorney-General swore in the witness box that he paid England £15 duty to get these six cattle shipped over to England, and he sold them at a good price. It is a good price to get £14 for six cattle here. We ship them over to England and before England will take them at any price she must collect a duty of £15. The President —noted mathematician—has left the House. I should like to know in respect of what England has collected that £15? In respect of what? Is it an ordinary tariff England has put up? No. It is a tariff to get her annuities, her local loans and her pensions amounting to, approximately, £5,000,000. Who is paying them? An unfortunate farmer down the country has to pay for those. The man who bought them on the instructions of the Attorney-General knew what he would have to pay to get them into England before he put a price on them. It is immaterial to him whether he had to pay £15 or whether he had not, but it is not immaterial to the farmer who owned them. Let us look at it in another way. This man swore that 50/- apiece was a great price for year-and-a-half cattle. A year and a-half ago will any man deny that when these were only dropped calves they were worth £3 10s.? That was before the blighting influence of the present Administration was beginning to take effect in this country.

Who rears the calves in this country? The poor unfortunate small farmer who has been fooled by Fianna Fáil propaganda and bribed by grants. Where were these grants found? In the course of this debate we shall find where they were got. During that period under review the farmer was told he should pay his annuities along with his rates. He has paid them or he has accepted responsibility for them. To be more correct, by an Act of this House passed by the Government in order to deceive the farmers, the farmer is made liable for the annuities over that period when the price of farmers' produce was reduced from about £10 to £2 10s., and in that relation proportionately. A number of the farmers who stood on the Fianna Fáil platforms throughout the country and who would not pay their land annuities and rates got the benefit of the funding. A challenge was thrown out to the Government, and nobody dared take up that challenge because nobody would be so foolhardy as to attempt to do so. A challenge was thrown out by a Deputy who is now present, and no attempt was made to deal with that, because the Ministers knew that a counter contradiction would come from every parish in Ireland. They thought it was better to let the hare sit. They have started a hare now that will not sit.

We are proceeding along the line. The punitive tariff is increased, the resources of the country are drying up and we are well into the financial year. That economic war that was won a year ago, according to Deputy Dr. Ryan, Minister for Agriculture, must now be fought out. Anybody who wants to recover the markets is told that he is only like a baby crying out for the moon. Yet we are taxed to provide subsidies to provide that moon or to secure that moon for which we are told we are crying out like babies. Is it not a pity that some Minister opposite would not resign and let the Government co-opt somebody from amongst the agricultural labourers who might know something about the job?

We start off this year and the Land Bill is introduced. Speaking from memory, a sum of something like £2,000,000, that is as legally owed as any private debt, is confiscated. That was money owed to the county councils of this country by the defaulting annuitants. A sum of £250,000 was wiped out by the generosity, prompted by political propaganda, of the Government. We know it is very easy to be generous with other people's money. But it is a very bad principle to adopt, because a contract was signed by the farmers who got their lands purchased.

Never before was the law of contracts broken by any responsible men in this country. The Government broke the law of contracts this year. They saw no difference in the remission of arrears due to the Government under those contracts and the remission of arrears due to rack-renting landlords during the landlord régime. So much for their knowledge. These sums then were lost to the ratepayers. In addition there was another item, the outstanding annuities for last year, which amount to about £2,000,000. That was to be funded over a period of years according to the present Land Bill. The Government claimed that when that money would be paid it would belong to the Central Fund and not to the local authorities to whom it legally belonged. In addition to that, the local authorities were this year informed that the Agricultural Relief of Rates Grant would be cut down by £448,000. Notwithstanding all these increased burdens, general depression, and the deprivation of our markets, our grants were cut down. Moneys due to us by law were taken away from us, and are being taken away from us. The promise of derating has been dishonoured. Then we come along a little further. We find that the other string to the Fianna Fáil Party, when seeking office, was their abhorrence of coercion. That was used, together with the German No. 2 plot, to further impoverish agriculture and to destroy the agricultural industry in this country.

That has nothing to do with the motion.

Well, if you, sir, will allow me to develop it, I think I will be able to correlate the two.

I have allowed the Deputy to go very far, but surely he cannot see any relevancy between a Coercion Act and this matter of £448,000 that he is bringing in.

There was a vacuum created in local finance because of this reduction in the grant. That £448,000 must be felt by the people from whom that grant has been withdrawn. It must be felt by the people who have been deprived of the ownership of the moneys due to them. That deprivation has been brought about by the provisions of the Land Bill. And that sum is to be made good by the people deprived of their markets. It is to be made good by the people whose produce has been reduced by more than 50 per cent. in value. If that vacuum is to be made good it must be made good by the people. The Government, instead of dealing equitably and according to their promises with such ratepayers, now see fit to invent a German plot and use a Coercion Act so as to make the people fill that vacuum. Does not that correlate this matter with the Coercion Act?

It certainly does not, and the Deputy knows that. A certain Act was passed by this House, and it has been used by the Government. That Act is beyond the discussion of the House while we are dealing with this motion.

I am not discussing the Act. I am discussing the application of the Act to a matter that is, I submit, very closely related to, and is part of, the motion I am now discussing. The Act is beyond discussion. It was an Act before I came into this House, and I have no intention of discussing it. I am discussing the misapplication of this Act.

It has nothing to do with it.

Of course the Minister for Finance always sees that a matter that hits him and his administration directly between the eyes has nothing to do with whatever is under discussion. People, through all the agencies I have outlined, have been reduced to the poverty line. Taxation to pay the British, that was there before those payments were withheld, is still functioning. The land annuities have to be paid. Last year they went into a special fund that normally would have gone to liquidate that debt to England by the direct method—words that are very familiar to my ears after the last few days. By the direct method they would be paid to England, but under the present administration for the last year-and-a-half the Central Fund responsibility has been cut out and the general taxpayer has been cut out and, by the indirect method, the farmer is forced to pay to England. For every pound he had to pay by the indirect method the Government secured a pound in the Suspense Account, and when the debt for the year was liquidated to England by the agricultural producers here, morally and equitably that Suspense Account belonged to the farmers, because they had paid the debt.

Did the Government listen to equity and morality? No. It confiscated the money, and stated that the people would not pay, but that they would make them pay. We had that statement after the people had already paid twice. The members of the Government are trying to convince the public that people who have been robbed on all sides in the manner I have outlined do not want to pay and will not pay. I will not mention the methods they are using. There are a lot of appeals thrown out for unity and co-operation in this country. There never was a time when there was as much need for the unity and co-operation of all political parties and all sections of the Irish people as at the present time. No man can travel this country and say honestly that it is not on the edge of a precipice. There is not a producing industry carrying on on its own resources in this country economically sound. The greatest industry of all has to pay three times as much now as when the present Administration came in. Its income is hardly one-third of what it was when this Administration took over.

This motion is far from being comprehensive enough to meet the existing situation, but it meets a portion of that situation which cannot be explained away by any camouflage. This motion condemns the Government for not giving to agriculture in the current year the same treatment that it gave it last year. It is not giving it the same treatment when agricultural wholesale prices the world over are much below what they were in 1931. On top of all that, agricultural prices in this country are further depressed to the extent of 40 per cent. by reason of the actions of this Government.

Let us turn to the employees in agriculture. We find that the agricultural employer, by reason of legislation such as is going through the House now, will have to pay twice the amount he used to pay for national health insurance. The employees also have to pay roughly twice the amount for national health insurance. All the overhead charges in the case of agriculture are going up and the income is dwindling to vanishing point.

I do not know if newspaper reports are reliable regarding political alliances, but I do appeal to the Labour Party, in connection with this motion to remember that in this House they must be free, if they are to be honest to their constituents, to vote as they think best, regardless of any commitments they may have with the Government Party. I am not saying that they have any commitments, but the Labour Party represent, above all others, the agricultural workers and the small farmers, and this is a motion which vitally interests them. The big centres in the Free State, what you might call the industrial centres, have sent no Labour Deputy here. If Labour Deputies in the House are going to forget their constituents, then the sooner they take off the Party label and put up whatever label is more appropriate, the better. I am sorry the leader of the Labour Party is not here. I am sure that there is no industry in Kildare, excepting the agricultural industry, that could elect a Labour Deputy. There have been some mushroom industries started there, but I do not think that the extent to which they have developed would be a sufficient prop for Deputy Norton to lean on and disregard the agricultural workers in Kildare.

The promises that the Government Party made the country were many times better than this. The economic war was to be settled if they were returned, while the derating of agriculture was one of the principal planks in their platform. Neither has taken place. What did exist a year ago does not exist now, and the substance of this motion is a return to the status quo of last year. It would be an impertinence on my part—I am supposed to be impertinent— to direct the attention of Labour Deputies to the elements of economics, but they know that charges on, and relief of industry travel up and down the line. They know that the results of increasing the burden on agriculture and diminishing the return from it will fall first, and most heavily, on the people they represent, the people without whom there would not be a Labour Deputy in this House. Now, if by political alliances the Labour Party is going to neglect the interests of their constituents, then it will take a lot more than the new unit of specials to prevent the people from hearing the truth about the Government Party and their allies in the coming months. To the Government Party and to the employing farmers in that party who know the conditions of agriculture, I would say this: remember that in voting against this motion you are voting against the undertaking that was signed, sealed and delivered in an honourable way at the last election between you and your farming constituents. You promised them full derating and a settlement of the economic war. Candidates of the Government Party, when appealing for the agricultural vote at the last general election, never hinted or suggested that the status quo would not remain. Now not only have you repudiated the promises you made at the last general election, but the status quo has been repudiated in this one respect. I appeal to Deputies opposite who represent agricultural constituencies, to Deputies who would not be sitting here if they were not able to pitch a plausible tale to the farmers of the country, to see that the status quo is restored. The status quo in this one respect is all that this motion asks.

Deputies opposite who are working farmers know that there is no man as hard hit at present as the working farmer. They supported a Bill that was passed here recently. I may say, in passing, in connection with that Bill that the Government had not the full support of their own Party for it. Under it, it was proposed to reduce salaries by something like 5 per cent. or 10 per cent., but all the members of the Government Party did not support it. Some sat on the fence and would not support it. Propaganda, or tomfoolery, was made with the phrase that the farmer could not remain in the front line trenches if the other fellow did not pay up something. If that is the principle that we are going to work on, then the Government is only playing with the situation. If everybody is to fall into step with the farmer and his workers, then it is not a 5 per cent. cut but a 40 per cent. cut that should be looked for.

What about your amendment?

So far as I was concerned, the amendment meant no cut, and I stand by that, because I take a longer view of economics than the halfpenny view. If we are going to be a self-contained economic unit in this country, then we can only be that by keeping up the purchasing power of the masses of the people. If we are going to cut down wages and salaries we are going to lose in the prices we get for our produce, and our last stage will be much worse than our first, because any obligations that we have now when the standard is high will become unbearable if the standard is lowered. If farmers on the opposite benches think they are going to improve the farming situation by lowering the standard of other people, then they are simply going to cut the farmer's throat and going to drive this country headlong into bankruptcy. Instead of farmers opposite proposing to reduce others to the poverty line in which we ourselves are, let them take a step forward now, not to reduce the standard of the non-agricultural population, but to raise the standard of the agricultural population. That, in essence, is this motion. Its purpose is to leave the agricultural community in as good a position as the present Dáil found it in last February. That is the essence of this motion, though it falls very far short of even 1 per cent. of the promises held out by the present Government Party at the last election.

The motion is not comprehensive enough to deal with the whole economic situation. It is not even comprehensive enough to deal with a tithe of the promises held out by the politicians opposite when they last consulted the electorate and on foot of which they got elected. When they reduced this sum last March they had no answer to give for their action but one: "We went before the country, they elected us, and we are speaking for a majority of the people." I venture to say there is not a Deputy opposite who, if he were to go before any agricultural constituency at the present time, would succeed in getting his money back on the policy that the Government have pursued since the last general election. Not one, and if there is a single Deputy who thinks that he would succeed on that policy I challenge him to a contest in any agricultural constituency in the Free State. Even the Deputy who has spoken—let him give in his resignation to the Ceann Comhairle and I shall give in mine and fight him in any agricultural constituency upon that issue. Deputies opposite know in their hearts that they have fooled the agricultural people of this country. It is a pity the Deputies opposite would not take a course of reading John Mitchel's small History of Ireland since the Siege of Limerick. There they would read from the stinging pen of Mitchel the efforts that were made to reduce the agricultural population of this country to professional pauperism. That is what this Government is doing—reducing this once flourishing industry to one of professional pauperism. If there is any Deputy opposite who is prepared to stand before his constituency as a candidate in support of the administration of the Party opposite, I am ready to stand against him. Let him hand in his resignation now, and I will give in my resignation, and face him in the by-election in any constituency in this State on the question of the Government's agricultural policy. We want no sham threats about organisations disobeying the law, or wanting to break the law, or about mysterious organisations that will not meet their responsibilities.

Every honest man in this country wants to meet his responsibilities. If there are dishonest men who do not want to meet their responsibilities they should be made to meet them. The first responsibility for the economic life in the country depends upon the Government, and no agent in this country has done more to kill economic life in the country than the present Administration. They try to cajole the people by telling them that England is responsible. England is not responsible. The Government opposite are responsible. They preach the lying doctrine that the man who tells the truth in this country is playing the English game. When the people want to come into the open and tell the truth, what are they met with? They are met by an army of thugs who try to break up their meetings because they are afraid of the truth. There is something wrong with any Government that will tolerate gangs going round to political meetings to break them up. There is something that Government wants to hide. They should have nothing to hide. As the custodians of law and order, they should use their power in the interests of all. They do not want law and order because they do not want the people told about the cajolery and lying preached by the present Government. Now we have the truth out. If there is any man opposite who has pluck enough to face an agricultural constituency upon the issue of the agricultural policy of the present Government, or want of agricultural policy, or destruction of agricultural policy by the present Government, I shall face him in that constituency.

This motion that I am moving to-night has been on the Paper for the last four months, but the trickery of the Government deprived us of private members' time in which to move this motion until it is almost out of date. We cannot recover this money now. This money is now being earmarked for another purpose. It may bring pauper relief to the unfortunate workers of this country who should be working in productive employment. But there is no productive employment because, as I mentioned before, there is no productive industry that is economically sound. There is no purchasing power in agriculture. This would not appreciably improve the position of agriculture but it is one of the steps forward, retracing steps backward that the present Government has taken. That is the way the Government has dishonoured their contract with the people. This motion asks this House now to endorse what in effect is a censure of the Government, not so much for any particular line of policy as for having broken their promises to the electorate and the people who sent them in here. It is timely when the muddy waters are being stirred up and the lying propaganda is used that the farmers of this country want to evade their responsibilities—it is time to let it go forth that this House will no longer give confidence to a Government that has forgotten its promises to the people, and a contract entered into six or seven months ago, and takes away the advantages that the people had before that promise was given them, and before the world depression and the artificial depression produced by the present Administration. I am not in a position to go into the details of the situation, but I appeal to Deputies on all sides to remember that we are up against a terribly dangerous situation at the present time. Even if we forget what it is that caused that situation, even if we never uttered a word of blame to anybody responsible for the situation, we cannot close our eyes to the fact that this country is up against a situation never experienced before, and that to save the country from bankruptcy it will take every man and every woman to come in and work together and push in one direction. If they do not push in one direction, but keep pushing in an opposite direction, nothing short of a miracle can save this country from bankruptcy and ruin. Let us forget the cause that produced that terrible situation and give a vote expressive of our conception of that situation when the time comes to remedy it.

Agriculture is the parent of industry. It was described by a great European statesman as the mother of the nation's wealth that industry employs. The talk about the twopenny-halfpenny industries in little backyards, that you would require a microscope to see, which are subsidised by agriculture, is absurd. Why not turn to agriculture? Take a step in that direction and there you will have a new orientation of policy as a gesture in the right direction, as a corrective which by co-operation and goodwill, not by false accusations from a Government Department and not by the application of coercion, will save this country from bankruptcy and ruin. The way that the Government is travelling is the way to create disunity. That is the way to lead to bankruptcy. This motion which I ask the House to adopt is a gesture in the direction of unity and the co-operation of all classes and creeds to save this country from ruin before it is too late.

If one did not know Deputy Belton and had not previous experience of him, his earnest manner would deceive one that he was really earnest. Deputy Belton has brought any amount of simulated heat into this proposal, just the very same as Deputy Belton's Party and his allies have gone round the country during the last 12 months endeavouring by every possible means in their power to give all the support they could to those who are fighting this war against the Irish nation. We have been accused here that we were in favour of derating. We were absolutely, but we profited by experience. When the £750,000 in the relief of rates was corkscrewed out of the last Executive Council here by me, I watched the result very closely. I found that one old rack-renting landlord in my parish got just three times as much relief as the balance of the farmers of that parish put together. That old rack-renting landlord got more of that £750,000 than the two parishes combined in which he lived. That is the system that Deputy Belton and those associated with him want to continue. That is whom they represent, the gentleman with the 1,200 acres who will not pay his rates. Despite all the assertions made by Deputies opposite, no less than seven separate resolutions were passed by meetings of the Centre Party in my constituency in the last six months refusing to pay rates and calling on the people to refuse to pay rates. What are the facts? I discussed this matter in another place. I discussed it within our Party ranks as to which would be better for the farmers of this country—complete derating or the 50 per cent. reduction in annuities and I plumped for the 50 per cent. reduction in the annuities. I knew the farmers and I counted up the loss to the farmers by the reduction in the agricultural grant and that paltry reduction was completely wiped out. In Cork County in 1931-32 we got something less than £241,908 in relief of rates. In 1932-33 we got £265,769. In 1933-34, that is this year, we will get £209,306. In other words, we lose in Cork County by the reduction of the agricultural grant £56,203, whereas the 50 per cent. reduction in the annuities in Cork County will mean £223,613.

That is a very good joke, is it not?

It is a very good joke for the howlers.

What have the farmers lost as a result of your policy? What are they getting for their dropped calves and cattle?

I will go into that. You can make a speech when I am done.

I will make it. It is very easy to answer you.

That is the position. Cork lost £56,000 by the reduction in the Agricultural Grant and by the reduction of 50 per cent. in the annuities they gained £223,000. These are the facts, facts which Deputies opposite do not like very well. Then in addition to that we are spending £250,000 on labourers' cottages, of which the Government is guaranteeing 60 per cent. That is £150,000 provided for houses for labourers about whom Deputy Belton was talking, labourers whom members of the Centre Party cut 4/- or 5/- per week in their wages, when they found the result of the last election. These are the stubborn facts. These unfortunate labourers had to wait for ten years without these houses. They were charged 6/- a week by farmers for houses with two rooms, houses in which the rain poured down on top of them morning, noon and night.

The last Executive Council were there for ten years. They had not Deputy Belton's support for the ten years, I admit, but Deputy Belton supported them at the last election. These labourers would still be without their labourers' cottages were it not that this year this Government is providing 60 per cent. of the loan charges, a sum of £150,000 set aside for the building of these cottages in Cork County. Let us see what this howling is about. We lose £56,203 and we gain £223,613 by the reduction of 50 per cent. in the annuities. We gain £150,000 in the 60 per cent. cost of the labourers' cottage scheme for the county. These are facts. Was there ever anything so ridiculous as hearing these people coming in here and howling, or howling at the cross-roads, howling about things that they know are false and misleading? Honesty! Honesty from that gang! Deputy O'Leary was anxious to know what the loss on cattle was. I will give it to him. I gave it to him here the other night. I should like Deputies to consider facts and look them in the face. I am speaking here as a working farmer, as a farmer who had to earn his living all his lifetime. I had to work from 12 years of age and I had no other living. I had to pay rates and annuities during the period when these gentlemen under their Coercion Acts kept me in jail and I paid them. Take the case of the ordinary farmer in the country. I am not concerned with the 1,200-acre gentleman who will not pay his rates and who comes howling up around this part of the world, nor am I concerned with any one of these other ranchers who are endeavouring to use the ordinary small farmer as a smokescreen to defeat the Government that has been elected by the majority of the Irish people. For six months of last year we had them howling at every crossroads. We took them to the country and the country gave the people opposite their answer and if we turned them out again in the morning there would be very little howling left in them and well they know it. I went down to my people in 1931 and I got something like 5,000 votes. With this economic war in full belt, and with this 40 per cent. on, I got 11,000 votes. That is the people's answer to your howling—a groaning, moaning, miserable gang and there is not a farmer amongst them.

The Deputy should not apply the word "gang" to any Party in this country.

I withdraw. Take the ordinary small farmer in this country at present, examine his position, and see how he would stand if Deputy Hogan, the greatest Minister for Agriculture who ever lived, were still here dealing with him. Would he be as well off, or would he be still in the land of milk and honey, of which they were talking for ten years? I will take the 40-acre farmer and examine his position. He would have, in livestock, 6 cows, 6 calves, 6 sheep, and a pair of horses. His tillage on his farm would be an acre and a half of potatoes, an acre of turnips, and an acre of mangolds. He would have 4½ acres lea ground which he would set in oats, and 2½ acres, in addition to his potatoes and mangolds, which he would set in wheat, and 2 acres of barley. He was told that wheat would not grow in this country and that he would rob himself by trying to grow it. Let us examine his position and compare it with what his position would be under the benevolent administration of the greatest Minister for Agriculture who ever lived and his position under Fianna Fáil to-day. I am not going to say that he is a millionaire, nor am I going to say that he is even well off, but I am going to say this, that he is a hanged sight better off than he would be if he were still under the lash of the gentleman who lashed him without mercy for ten years. Take, first of all, the amount that man would lose. On his six calves, he would pay 50/- apiece if he sent them to the English market.

How much would he pay for the German market?

We say that the farmer is getting a bounty, and the farmer says he is not getting it. The Deputy represents the man who must be getting it.

The cattle dealer.

Forty per cent. worse off than I was.

That farmer would pay 50/- apiece on his six calves. That is, he would lose £15 by the economic war, so far as these calves are concerned. His ten sheep would have, say, 16 lambs, and sending these to the English market he would pay 12/- apiece and would lose £9 12s. I have not got the amount made up here that he would lose by this reduction in the rates, but I will not be a minute making it up. It represents just 1/2 in the £ in Cork County, and even if we said that he lost 2/6 on his £20 valuation, he would lose 50/-. He would thus lose altogether £27 2s.

Is the land valued at only 10/- an acre?

That is very low.

They think it too high.

It very probably is.

He would lose altogether £27 2s. granting that the Deputy, who interrupted a moment ago, puts the cattle bounty into his pocket.

Oh, you are going on well. You are keeping your election promises anyway.

Now we will take the other side of the picture. What would be the average milk yield of this farmer's six cows? Some of them might give 800 and some might give 400—we will take 500 as the average. That would be 3,000 gallons of milk, and if the greatest Minister for Agriculture who ever lived were sitting on these benches that farmer would be getting less than 2d. per gallon for that milk, and I defy Deputies opposite to deny that. I challenge them to deny it and to prove their denial here. Twopence a gallon would be the price of that milk if that greatest Minister for Agriculture were sitting on these benches.

What is the present price?

The present price is 4d. I do not say that he is going to be a millionaire as a result of it, but it represents 2d. a gallon more than he would get if Deputies opposite were in office.

Supposing you had not an economic war?

The average price of creamery butter in the English market during the last 12 months would not amount to 70/- a cwt.

What is it now?

I am taking a 12 months' average.

Deputies will have an opportunity of replying if they desire to do so.

They could not, because they know nothing about it.

I was asking the question by way of explanation.

70/- a cwt. was the price of best Irish creamery butter in the English market during the last 12 months. That would work out at 2d. per gallon, and when the Butter Prices (Stabilisation) Bill was brought in here, Deputy Hogan got up and said: "I had that 12 months ago and I threw it out," and he went into the lobby and voted against it, followed by as many Deputies as he could delude into following him. That Bill raised the price of that butter for that farmer from 70/- to 133/- to 136/-, and that farmer to-day is getting 4d. per gallon for his milk. That represents a 2d. per gallon gain on every gallon of milk he produces at present. That is £25 a year on the milk of his six cows, giving 3,000 gallons of milk, and a farmer with cows that do not give 500 gallons of milk does not deserve to have them. He gains £25 by having a Minister for Agriculture here who knows what the farmer wants and gives it to him.

Now we will go a step further. That farmer, if he took our advice, grew two and a half acres of wheat. On the last occasion on which I grew wheat under Deputy Hogan's benevolent administration, I got £6 a ton from Messrs. Furlong in Cork for it—the world market price. The world price of wheat, delivered at Cork Quay to-day, is £5 12s. 6d. Take it at even £6 and with a guaranteed price of £9 10s. to that farmer, on his two and a half acres of wheat he would have two and a half tons and that means that that farmer gains £8 15s. on his wheat alone. We will next take barley. On his two acres of barley he would get the British market price, and best malting barley in the English market to-day is hanging around 10/6 a barrel while the price here is 15/6. That is, he gains 5/- a barrel on 20 barrels of barley, out of two acres. That makes £5 more. On his annuity of £20 he gets a reduction of £10 By having a Fianna Fáil Administration in office that farmer gained £48 15s. against the £27 2s. he lost. Economic war and all, that is the position after giving the benefit of every doubt and of every howl. I am not saying that the farmer is well off; I am not saying that he is a millionaire; I am not even saying that he is able to pay his way.

He ought to be well off on these figures.

I will say this much, that he is far better off under Fianna Fáil than he was under Cumann na nGaedheal. These are the facts, and facts are stubborn things. I challenge any Deputy on the opposite benches to deny these figures. That farmer is £21 13s. 4d. better off now, tariff war and all, than he would be if Cumann na nGaedheal were in office. That is the case of a small farmer with 40 acres of land. We had moaning and wailing from the benches opposite and in the country. You would think the poor fellows were going to die. They did not die. As a matter of fact, I remember at the election that the leader of the Farmers' Party in this House—and I am proud to see that he remains the leader of the Farmers' Party—was crippled with rheumatics. The other day I saw where that Deputy challenged the Minister for Defence to a competition over hurdles. If that was the effect on farming and on their health I think the Opposition should be delighted. There should be no more moaning. At the last election that Deputy was crippled with rheumatics, but now he is able to challenge the Minister over the hurdles, and even to swim the Liffey.

He found that it does not pay to work, and his bones are getting loose.

The way he has worked has made them supple. I heard these moans all over my constituency at the election. One of the principal agents of the Centre Party kicked up the dickens of a row and stated that if this Government were returned again he would sell out. He was a big pig feeder, having 800 or 900 pigs and employing four or five fellows. "If that Government is returned I will clear out," he declared. "I will take my business across to England and avoid the 40 per cent. that I have to pay now for conveying them over, after rearing and feeding." He tried the experiment. He sacked the five men he employed at Glanmire, and went over. He remained three months and then came back to rear pigs under Fianna Fáil. He wrote to the Press complaining because he was made feed the pigs with Irish grain. When he was across the Channel he could feed them on grain that came from China or from Timbuctoo, and he had the 40 per cent. that he has to pay now for sending them over. He is back now and is rearing pigs and paying the 40 per cent. That is an honest example of a man who tried the experiment. What happened?

He is a good Irishman.

God knows there are not many who would say so. If the Deputy heard the story they told me about him down there——

It might not be true. It is dangerous to listen to these stories.

Unfortunately it was substantiated by facts.

The Deputy might have to come to the House and apologise if he tells it.

It was substantiated by facts given to the Land Commission.

Keep to the pigs.

I know that some Deputies will get up to complain. I am giving an example of a pig feeder who tried to experiment. I will tell a joke about another one.

Another pig.

Another pig feeder. He goes by the name of Buckworth down in Cork. He wrote to the newspapers complaining about the admixture scheme. Within the past two months, when a deputation of the Tobacco Growers' Association waited on that gentleman, to get a portion of an old store he was using in connection with the pig feeding industry, what did he say? His answer was: "I cannot spare it. I am feeding 800 pigs. During the last 12 months I made £2,000 profit on pigs." That is another of the bucks who signed with the ex-soldiers and the secretary of the Farmers' Union in Cork, complaining about being compelled to feed Irish grain to pigs. The House can just imagine the campaign of humbug that is being carried on throughout the country by these gentlemen. On this motion I want to impress upon the House that while Cork County lost £56,000 this year, owing to a reduction in the agricultural grant, against that it got a 50 per cent. reduction in annuities amounting to £223,000 or four times the first figures in addition to getting another £150,000 for assistance. Deputy Belton and the other propagandists can count that up when preaching their doctrine, or otherwise let them stay at home and let the Dáil do some work.

I was delighted to hear from Deputy Corry that the farmers in Cork are really wallowing in prosperity. It was the first cheerful note struck here for a long time. I am delighted to know that a representative Deputy, who claims to have such immense support in Cork, could come up to the capital and tell us that in fact the farmers of Cork were never so prosperous.

On a point of order. I have been misrepresented by Deputy O'Higgins. I did not say that the farmers in Cork were wallowing in prosperity. I said they were not millionaires. I said that I would not say they were well off; that I would not say they are able to pay their way. I said they are better off anyway than when their gang was here.

Half-hearted retractions are getting fashionable in that corner. I submit to the Dáil that I am giving a fairly accurate and reasonable interpretation of the story that Deputy Corry narrated for us. I submit that what he wanted to portray to the Dáil was the prosperity of the Cork farmer under a Fianna Fáil Administration. What came into my mind when Deputy Corry was speaking was which of them—the Minister for Agriculture of Deputy Corry—is honest or which of them is the rogue; which of them knows the most about the position of the Cork farmers. I have a distinct recollection of reading quite recently the report of a speech by the Minister for Agriculture, delivered in the midst of these prosperous Cork farmers, delivered in the very midst of these farmers who are making easy money, according to Deputy Corry. What was the tune the Minister piped that day? Was it one of elation, was it one of prosperity? Did he point out to them the fortunes they are making under the Fianna Fáil Government? He was up against them. He was not talking to a group of people here in Dublin, 150 miles away. Face to face with these prosperous farmers, these people making easy money, what was the tune the Minister piped? "I sympathise with you. You are going through it, but you are sticking it well. Hold on. Better times are coming. A little pat of butter here and a few eggs there— that is the way we will get on." There was no victory dance on that particular platform. Face to face with the farmers that Deputy Corry tells us are wallowing in prosperity, it was one even note of sympathy——

On a point of order, Deputy O'Higgins persists in misrepresenting my words.

The Deputy has stated that he is merely interpreting Deputy Corry's speech; he is not quoting it. He is entitled to do that.

Prosperity is making the Deputy unduly susceptible. He used not to be so very thin in the skin. I should advise the Deputy, in spite of the prosperity and in spite of the easy money, to keep on working hard, as he told us he was doing at 12 years of age, so as to keep the skin hard. Then he will not be so thin-skinned. I wonder who is correct—the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Corry or the farmers themselves. If there is all this prosperity in County Cork under a Fianna Fáil Administration, if they are so vastly better off under a Fianna Fáil Government—in deference to the wishes of Deputy Corry we shall keep away from the word "prosperity"— than ever they were, I wonder why the county council had such reluctance to striking a rate this year to make provision for the public services of County Cork. I wonder why the legal machinery which certain individuals had such a contempt for a few years ago had got to be invoked. Was it all roguery, or was it that the people found difficulty in paying? What we have got to face up against in dealing with this motion is whether or not it was fair or honest or just to reduce the grant in relief of agricultural rates this year. The responsibility of the people opposite is to justify in this year the reduction of the grant towards the relief of agricultural rates, to show that the position is so much changed that the people are better able to pay more rates this year than they did in previous years. Deputy Corry started out to make that case because it is the only reply that can be made to this motion. When the case he endeavoured to make got an ordinary, every-day, honest interpretation, we had a withdrawal, a recantation, a denial of the obvious interpretation, a running-away from the whole case. It is about time something coming from those benches was stood over by somebody. You cannot catch a centipede on the wrong foot. We are dealing with a lot of political centipedes and no sooner do you think that they are on one foot than you find that they are on one of the other 99. A little straightforwardness and less shiftiness is what is wanted in public administration and it is what is wanted in the Parliament of this country. Go your course, wrong or right, but, wrong or right, stand over the course you go. Do not be ashamed of it; do not apologise for it but, above all, do not run away from it. We have this action by the Government, reducing by a sum of half a million pounds the grant in relief of agricultural rates, and the responsibility is on the Government to show why this particular year was selected for reducing that grant, to show that that grant was required to a less degree this year than in previous years or, alternatively, to show that the farmers were better able to pay increased rates this year than in other years. That is the only way the motion can be met. That case has got to be made or that policy embarked upon by the Government is wrong.

I hold that the particular action of the Government in reducing this grant has had many disastrous consequences. I regard the whole thing as a tombstone erected on so many broken promises—promises given in a public way by public men with great responsibilities. I think that this is rather unsafe, that reckless breaking of promises sets a bad headline inside the country. It is a bad headline from people in big positions to others. This disregard of the word given, of the promise made, is one of the serious consequences of this particular action. Another is the acute financial distress which has prevailed throughout every county in this State—banks refusing any further overdrafts, officials and officers working without pay, public services, in some cases, on the verge of financial collapse and secretaries and others responsible telling anybody concerned—and I am certain reporting to the Government Department concerned—that they cannot see their way around the next two months. That is another result of this particular Government action. Then we have another result—a tendency on the part of people not to pay. I am not referring to the people who cannot pay, but we hear from the benches opposite that there is a tendency on the part of some who could pay not to pay. All that is attributable to one thing—the amount of political trickery and shiftiness which is associated with this particular act.

Dr. Ryan

Hear, hear!

"Hear, hear," says the Minister. If he says that in five minutes time, I shall echo it.

Dr. Ryan

Are you going to say something else, too?

Let us have the particular atmosphere and association of this. When was the grant reduced? Was notice given? The Minister "hear, hears" from the Government Bench but he is quite doleful when down in Skibbereen.

Dr. Ryan

Not a bit.

Was notice of this reduction given in January? Was it given at the time that you were seeking votes? Was it given at the time when you were making your promises? Was it given at the time when you told the public you had your plans made? Was there any hint, any suggestion, that you intended to reduce the agricultural grant? Was there any hint of that even last January, or even in February when the county councils were, one by one, preparing their estimates, arriving at their financial commitments for the year, and arriving at these estimates with the knowledge and belief that the fund that had flowed to them the previous year would flow to them again? Even then, was there any hint, was there any open honesty on the part of the Government? Those men, voluntary workers, county councillors in every county up and down the country, made their plans, examined their estimated expenditure for the year, and, as soon as they were shackled by the law to embark on that particular expenditure, then and then only were they notified that half a million pounds was going to be withdrawn. I do not hear any "hear, hear" now. Is there anybody that will applaud that particular course? It is not so much the financial result, it is the unmanliness of the whole thing that is really contemptible and really deplorable. It is that unmanly way of doing the thing, even if it has to be done, doing it in a crooked, secret way, that is deplorable. Mind you, it is becoming a characteristic Government action. One of the direct results of that is the difficulty of getting in rates —the difficulty that we hear so much about. People are brought before the Military Tribunal, allegations and suggestions made from political platforms that there is a conspiracy not to pay rates. The only evidence that is before the country is open evidence of a conspiracy to cod the ratepayers, a conspiracy to cod those responsible for striking the rates. There is no getting away from that. The dates are there. The method in which it was done and the time when it was done are all there. The actions and protests of the various county councils are all on record and the result is all round us to-day.

As I said in the beginning, if a Government reduces the grant in relief of agriculture there is a responsibility on that Government to show, either that the occasion for such a big grant has passed, or that agriculture is more profitable and that a higher rate can be paid. If that case is made, well and good. But, what is the particular year, and what is the particular set of circumstances in which the Government reduce this agricultural grant? We have a situation existing in this country generally referred to by Fianna Fáil politicians as an economic war. The name, of course, is dishonest—absolutely untrue. The picture it is meant to convey of courageous troops marching to battle is humbug and dishonesty to rally the supporters who are falling away in order to be able to shout "traitor" to those who oppose them. Economic war; one country, we suppose, endeavouring to starve the other country into submission; and the unfortunate taxpayers outside all providing bounties in order that more and more cattle can go over to feed John Bull and enable the British Chancellor of the Exchequer to collect the annuities. Tariffs imposed minute by minute, hour by hour, on this side of the water; tariffs on every commodity coming in from Great Britain. The tragedy of the whole thing and the humbug of the whole thing is that the taxes imposed by Great Britain on Irish produce landed in Great Britain are paid by the Irish people and the taxes imposed by this Government on British produce landed at Irish ports is again paid by the Irish people. I put this to the heroes opposite, who must be in some kind of a war atmosphere in order to survive at all politically; I put this to these economic soldiers: supposing things were the other way; supposing the particular phase of this economic war was that John Bull was paying all the taxes on English goods landed at Irish ports and that John Bull was paying all the taxes on Irish goods landed at English ports, then we would have something to cock out our little chests about. Then we would have achieved something; we would have done something for the people of the country, beyond indulging in humbug, codding the county councils, codding the taxpayers, and, in the long run, codding ourselves. Because, mind you, if you live long enough in that kind of false atmosphere, if you continually give out this false stuff, you will begin to believe it yourselves after a while. The results are serious enough at this particular point; continue, and the results may be so serious that the country cannot be retrieved.

In this set of circumstances, with the price of every article of the Irish farmers' produce tumbling one after another, such a year is selected to increase his rates, to reduce the grant in aid of his rates. Then, when a Deputy gets up to make the only case which would justify such action, and when the obvious interpretation is put on the case he makes, immediately there is a withdrawal. This is what I would like to know and what the country would like to know: what were the reasons that prompted the reduction of the agricultural grant in the middle of the so-called economic war, at a time when one Minister after another, when addressing an agricultural community, sympathises with them, tells them that it is necessary, but to stick it out; that times are hard. but that they will not always be so hard? Why was such a time selected? Again. I say the reason is obvious. It is just another bit of political trickiness, of political shiftiness; an attempt to buy political support with public money.

What is the position? Some 12 months ago we had a motion put down by Deputy Morrissey asking the Government to accept the principle of providing either work or maintenance for able-bodied men in this country. At that time the Government was living in another atmosphere of make-believe, another atmosphere of false promises. The wheels of industry were going to buzz in this country. 80,001 men were going to be employed in two or three months. In the atmosphere of all that kind of propaganda this particular motion of Deputy Morrissey had got to be accepted. The principle of work or maintenance was accepted. The reason why that responsibility was put on the Government was in order to take it off the ratepayers; that was the only reason. The Government accepted that principle of work or maintenance. The other day there was no reference to the work—not a bit; but there was a Bill brought in to provide what was called maintenance. It was supposed to be coming out of central funds. It was supposed to be a Government grant, a Government effort to provide maintenance. £500,000 was provided as a sum to start the finance of this new scheme. There was something familiar about that particular £500,000. It was the very same sum as had been withheld from local rates. In fact, there was no contribution from central funds. There was no effort by the Government to relieve the ratepayers, to take the responsibility off the ratepayers which should never have been imposed on them. In fact, you might as well have left things where they were. The ratepayers are providing maintenance. It is the ratepayers' money, withdrawn from the agricultural grant. Another —just another—little political trick, just another little example of how important politics appear to that Front Bench opposite, and how unimportant a little straightforward legislative business appears to the same Front Bench.

I say that it does not matter who sits on the Government Front Bench provided facts are faced up to. Whether it is Fianna Fáil or Labour or whatever Party sits there, there is a definite and solemn responsibility on them to do their best for every industry in this country, but to do their very, very best for the biggest industry this country ever had, or ever will have. To play politics at a time when the farming industry is going down and down, to withdraw finance from that industry—finance which could at the moment save it—in order to buy, say, tens of thousands of votes around the country, is not playing the game straight; that is not playing the game you were sent there to play. You were sent there to administer the affairs of the country, to do your best for the country, to do your best particularly for the main industry in the country and not to play politics. You should have quit politics when you got into that bench. You should have begun to think of business. Even at this stage I would ask that this much might result from this particular debate before it is finished—that it might bring the Government back to a realisation of the responsibilities which they accepted when they took their seats on those benches. When they took their seats on the Government Bench they ceased to be the representatives of one set or section of politicians throughout the country. They became the representatives of all the people, irrespective of class and irrespective of politics. It is not facing up to that responsibility, it is not being true to the responsibility which is yours, to continue day after day and year after year playing politics from Government seats.

The motion before the Dáil is:

That the Dáil condemns the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land.

In some peculiar way, which I cannot follow, Deputy O'Higgins succeeded in linking up with that motion an allegation that the Government is using public funds to buy political support. That allegation, associated with that motion, seems to bespeak a muddled mind. I cannot follow the Deputy. If the Deputy were criticising us for having increased the grant for the relief of rates on agricultural land to an exorbitant degree, then undoubtedly we might be faced with an allegation, such as the Deputy has made, of fleecing the taxpayer for the purpose of getting political kudos, but the motion refers to the action of the Government in reducing the grant. The reduction of a grant is never very popular, and the Government took action in the reduction of this grant knowing it to be unpopular, but knowing it also to be the right thing to do by the country. Of course the conception of a Government doing the right thing by the country is so foreign to the minds of Deputies opposite that they cannot quite grasp it.

I do not know what the Deputy is referring to, but perhaps he will explain later on. Cheap? It reminds me of a blackbird singing its song, but perhaps it has some significance. When Deputy O'Higgins speaks here he always asks others to adopt the manly course, to do the straightforward thing. It is a sort of complex of his. Just as a person who knows himself to be inferior to his associates is continuously asserting his superiority, or a person who is engaged in some intrigue against his comrades continuously suspects them of intriguing against him, so Deputy O'Higgins always feels it necessary to assert the desirability of a straightforward and manly course, and to urge others to adopt it. What is the straightforward and manly course for Deputies opposite in relation to this motion? I suggest that the first thing is to tell us what exactly they would do if the responsibility were theirs. I am anxious to find out. One of the childish illusions which Deputies opposite cherish is that by some stroke of luck they will at some time again become responsible for the Government of this country. Let them indulge their day dream to the extent of telling us what they would do if they became the Government of the country. Let us assume a myth, and try to imagine the Front Bench opposite transferred to the Front Bench here. I do not know who would compose it, because the Front Bench opposite appears to be filled by a sort of rotating system, but assuming that it would be possible to get agreement amongst the Party opposite as to who should be the members of the Government and that they were transferred over here and asked to explain to the Dáil their policy, what would they say? Would they say they were going to increase the grant for the relief of rates on agricultural land? Do you want to increase the grant for the relief of rates on agricultural land? That silence speaks a lot. What else would they do?

Let me tell you something about the reason why this year was chosen to reduce the grant for the relief of rates on agricultural land. The total reduction is £450,000. In this year farmers are going to be asked to pay only one quarter of their land annuities, one quarter of what they paid in previous years. Not £450,000, but well over £3,000,000 of the amount they had to pay in 1931 is being left with them this year. It is surely obvious to Deputies opposite that the farmers, en masse, are getting a much greater measure of relief from the central authority in this year than ever they got before, or than ever they will get again. That is why this year was chosen to reduce the grant for agricultural land, and also because the Government proposal which was discussed in the Dáil this evening means that farmers are going to get back more than was taken from them in the reduction of this grant for the relief of rates by transferring from the rates to the Unemployment Assistance Fund the responsibility of providing for able-bodied unemployed. The total amount paid in home assistance in county council areas last year was £300,000.

How much of that was for able-bodied unemployed?

Assuming that all of it was, I say that more than twice that amount is going to be paid in future and that the rate charge for home assistance is going to be very considerably reduced. In return for the £450,000 taken from these areas a much larger sum is going back in addition to the £3,000,000 remission of land annuities. What would Deputies opposite do? They are continuously talking as if the restoration of Cumann na nGaedheal to power was going to mean immediate prosperity for the farmers. How are they going to get it? We want to know. We are willing to learn. Maybe the people would not tolerate Deputies opposite in office, but if Deputies opposite have any ideas as to the return of prosperity let them not keep it secret. Have they got an idea? Do the Deputies opposite know what they would do if the responsibility of Government was theirs? They used to short here about giving the farmers back their markets. What did they mean by that? Would the farmers get back their markets if the Party opposite became the Government to-morrow and, if so, how are they going to do it? We could get back the British market to-morrow, no doubt, by dropping our claim to the land annuities and to the other payments now being withheld. Is that the way that you will get back the markets? We want the Deputies opposite to tell us. If they can get any agreement among themselves as to what the policy of their Party is, let them announce it. I suggest that the only reason that they have not announced their policy is that any attempt to formulate it would burst their Party into five parts. But if they have got any agreement even upon the most meaningless phrase that could be passed off on the country as a policy, let them tell us what it is. Do they propose to get the British market back by paying the land annuities in full to Great Britain, and, if so, are they going out around the country with the bailiffs and the sheriffs for the purpose of collecting these annuities? If they succeeded in restoring to the farmers the £450,000 additional agricultural grant, which was taken from them, at the cost of taking from these farmers the £4,000,000 in land annuities, I am afraid that the farmers would not see the point of it. Do the Deputies opposite see the point of it? They are so very shy of telling us what they stand for that some of us have come to the conclusion that they stand for nothing. If the Party has not a policy, is there any individual in the Party opposite with a policy? Is there one Deputy opposite who knows what he would do if he were made a dictator under Mr. O'Duffy's dictatorship plan? Would he increase the Agricultural Grant? Would they collect and pay to Great Britain the land annuities? If they are not prepared to do that, how do they propose to get back the British market they are talking about?

I invite Deputies opposite to enlighten us on these matters. We have pleaded with them before in the House and outside the House to tell us what their policy is. I ask them again, as public men representing constituencies in this country whose duty it is to help to formulate the public opinion of a part of our people, to make a beginning here by telling us what conclusions they themselves have reached, if they have reached any conclusions. They ask the Dáil to condemn the action of the Government in reducing the total of the Agricultural Grant, but they do not propose that it should be increased. Is that their policy? Are they urging that the £450,000 by which the Agricultural Grant was reduced should be given again in this year to the farmers and, if so, where do they propose to get it? The benefits which the Party opposite, apparently, offer to the farmers are a vigorous campaign to collect 100 per cent. of the land annuities, additional taxation to provide £1,250,000 in respect of R.I.C. pensions, and so on, and no economies. In return for all that they hope to get in the British market an opportunity of disposing of our surplus of agricultural produce at a better price, and they have not yet realised the illusion upon which they are basing their whole political conception. It is not there. The farmers could not do it. If you seek to get back the British market at that price, you will break this country. You say that the farmers are not well off. Of course, they are not well off. We know they are not well off. Neither are the farmers in Northern Ireland nor in Great Britain, France, Germany, or the United States of America well off. There is no country in the world in which the farmers are well off at the present time, because of the tremendous fall in the prices of primary products, a fall which has not been reflected in the prices of other commodities to the same degree. It is the duty of the central authority to help the farmers to weather this depression so that they will be able to take advantage of any trade revival that may come about with their productive capacity unimpaired. Go and ask the farmers of Great Britain if they are satisfied with present conditions. You cannot do better for the farmers of this country under any circumstances than make them as well off as the farmers of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are. Are the farmers of Northern Ireland so well off? Do we read in the Press speeches of their representatives boasting of the prosperity they are enjoying there, or do we read the reverse? And it must be remembered that the farmers in the Six Counties do not pay annuities to Great Britain. They pay them into a derating fund. They do not pay rates. Deputies opposite have got to tell us how they are going to put our farmers even into as good a position as the farmers of Northern Ireland. You can only get the same price for their produce but can you, at the same time, give them the measure of relief they are enjoying? You cannot do it. You may be fooling yourselves but you are fooling nobody else. If you want to carry any weight in the political life of this country, my advice is to sit down and think seriously for a week without saying anything and then for all of you to agree amongst yourselves as to what you will say.

I gathered from Deputy O'Higgins that he objects to the payment of export bounties. Is that the policy of the Party opposite? Undoubtedly, we could pay the £450,000 additional grant for the relief of rates on agricultural land if we stopped the export bounties as Deputy O'Higgins suggests. Does any other Deputy opposite suggest that it should be done? I should be glad to hear from them. Deputy O'Higgins apparently was speaking for himself alone, mé féin instead of Sinn Féin. We are told that the reduction of the grant had many disastrous consequences. Deputy O'Higgins talked about its effect on public morals. It was not the reduction of the grant that had any effect on public morals. It was the campaign which the Deputies opposite decided to initiate when the reduction of the grant was announced. As to the effect on public morals, Deputies must quite seriously lay the blame for that and for any deterioration in public morality at their own door. Deputies will remember that early this year we had an effort made by certain county councils to prevent the striking of a rate at all. We had that campaign officially endorsed by the Cumann na nGaedheal Convention held here in May last. Deputies are now telling us that they never advocated the non-payment of rates. Their memories are very short. They cannot remember their own policy for six months. I invite Deputies opposite to go back over their newspapers and read the speeches made in May last, when they gave public support to the members of the different county councils who were trying to prevent a rate being struck.

Why not address that to the members of your own Party?

I am speaking of the action of the Opposition. They have put down a motion on the Order Paper and it is for them to justify that motion and to justify their attitude in relation to the question involved and also to tell us what their policy is in relation to that matter. The public morality of a certain section of our people was seriously undermined by the attitude adopted by Deputies opposite in the beginning of the year. But they failed in their campaign to prevent a rate being struck. They failed in that campaign and because they failed in that they began to go around the country making speeches about the poor farmers who could not pay their rates. They continued in that until they had induced, here and there, a local agitation to prevent the rates being paid. In so far as assistance from the Central Fund was ever given to the agricultural community, more assistance has been given this year than in any other two years added together——

Yes, and more is required.

I will answer that interruption in a minute as to whether more is required or not. We are told that prices have fallen. Prices for all agricultural products are low. For a number they are higher here than anywhere else, but taken on the whole they are low. Farmers are getting for their milk sold at the creameries a higher price than any farmers in Europe——

How much per gallon?

They are getting 4d. to 4½d. per gallon.

Where is 4½d. per gallon paid for milk in this country?

Dr. Ryan

If the Deputy will put down a question I will guarantee him that they are paid 4½d. in 12 places in the country.

Why not give us one place now where it is paid?

The farmers are getting, in respect of other crops, a higher price than in England or in Northern Ireland. In fact, there are attempts being made to smuggle in certain crops from Northern Ireland into the Saorstát so as to get higher prices. Cattle prices are falling, but since July, 1932, to this day the fall in cattle prices was much less than the fall that took place in 1931. Let the Deputies go back and look at the records for those years. Prices of cattle fell in 1931 considerably more than since the economic war began. I said the other day that the Cumann na nGaedheal peace was worse than any economic war and all the statistics for the period bear that out. The price for bacon pigs is higher than in 1931. Prices for sheep have fallen, but the price has not fallen as much since the economic war began as it fell in 1931. Not merely have conditions in some respects been improved for the farmers in so far as their cash obligations to the public funds have been reduced, but, in addition, they have been induced by circumstances to commence the change over to a sounder system of economics. Remember that when I say the prices of cattle have not fallen since the start of the economic war as much as they fell in 1931, I say the same in relation to sheep and other agricultural products. I am not denying that prices have fallen.

And three-year-old cattle are sold for £5. That is the price now. Compare that with the prices in 1931.

In several other countries farmers would be glad to get that price for their cattle.

Mr. Brodrick

Will the Minister compare the price now with the price paid in 1931 for cattle?

How is the Deputy going to increase it?

Mr. Rice

By taking off the 40 per cent. tariff on our cattle.

One man has spoken. I have been asking the Party opposite to tell us how to increase the price of cattle, and one man has come in now to tell us. How are you going to increase the price?

Mr. Rice

By settling the absurd economic war.

On the basis of paying the annuities?

Mr. Rice

Not necessarily.

On a point of order. Is it correct for the Minister to conduct a cross-examination of the entire Party in the course of his speech? Is not that inevitably going to lead to constant interruptions?

I can understand how reluctant the acting leader of the Opposition is to hear Deputy Rice's answer.

Rhetorical questions need not be answered.

I put it to yourself that if they are not answered it is because the Opposition desire to be orderly. The Minister need not comment that if they are not answered they are therefore unanswerable.

I got an answer as to how to increase the prices. I was told that it was the policy of the Opposition Party to secure better prices for our exports on the basis of paying the annuities.

Deputy Rice did not say that.

Again, on a point of order—I put this point solely in the interests of good order—if the Minister goes on with his tub thumping we will have a thoroughly disorderly debate.

I can assure Deputies that there will not be a disorderly debate.

If the Opposition Deputies want a settlement on the basis suggested by Deputy Rice——

Has not the Minister been asking for interruptions since he started his speech? Is he not asking for them?

All this perturbation arose from the fact that Deputy Rice has let them down. Deputy Rice was not in the Dáil at the beginning. He walked in now and he answered a question and we get not a definition of the Party's policy but a denial of it. Their policy is not to pay annuities.

Mr. Rice

The Minister is proving now what Deputy Hogan said last week that he has brains but no character.

The Deputy may have character, but apparently he has no brains. His policy is not to pay the land annuities but to settle the economic war. Nevertheless let him tell us the sequel. That is what we want.

The farmers were paying the land annuities in 1931. Were they anyway worse off when paying?

Is it the policy of the Opposition to pay them? I am trying to find out something of value in the present debate.

It is the whole policy of Fianna Fáil that leaves us where we are. Deal with that.

And deal with the motion.

Is it your policy to pay the land annuities or not? I appeal to them not to answer. They will only be getting a further rebuff from the acting leader. There will be another split in the Party if you do not stop talking.

Mr. Broderick

Your figures are very unreliable.

I asked how are the prices going to be increased and I was told they would be increased by getting a removal of the 40 per cent. duty. I asked how was the removal of the 40 per cent. duty going to be secured and I was told it would be on the basis of paying the land annuities. Then there were shouts of "No" from several other Deputies. If their policy is to pay the land annuities, then they have to contemplate this campaign in connection with the collection of land annuities. They cannot pay the land annuities unless they first collect them. Is it their solution to go around this country with the battering ram, the bailiff and the sheriff to squeeze out of the farmers the £5,000,000 they have got to collect in order to secure the market?

What about the Public Safety Act?

If it is not their policy to pay the land annuities, what policy are they going to adopt in order to get rid of the 40 per cent. duty? Let them give us some information on that point. Let any one of them who chooses to speak tell us what did happen in 1931, when their deputy leader, their second in command or third in command, Deputy Cosgrave, asked for a moratorium on £250,000, payable under the 1925 agreement. If it is their policy not to pay the land annuities and if they think they can secure the removal of the 40 per cent. duty, we want some evidence of their ability to do that. All we have is their miserable failure to get a year's moratorium on the payment of £250,000.

When they got that rebuff in Downing Street they came back here and faced the Dáil and never said a word about it. They kept their lips shut about it; they kept that fact from the Irish people, although they knew perfectly well that if they mentioned that fact here they would have had the unanimous support of the Dáil, a support which would have secured the very minor concession that they were seeking to obtain.

The Minister having made his point, I submit that it is not the policy of this Party that is under discussion at the moment, but rather the policy of the Government. The Minister's remarks are absolutely irrelevant. He is not dealing with the motion before the House.

What Party is the Deputy's Party?

The question of the land annuities, the ability of the people to pay rates and the question of the economic condition of the agricultural community were spoken of for at least an hour and the Minister is entitled to reply.

I am glad to hear that.

The policy of Deputy Morrissey's Party may not be under discussion, but the policy of the Party to which Deputy Belton, Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Minch belong, is. They have tabled this motion. They invited this discussion and they are asking the Dáil to condemn the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land. I asked them if they were governing the country to-morrow would they increase the grant and I could not get an answer from them. I asked them what they would do, if they were in office, in order to relieve farmers. They have been talking about low prices. What would they do to increase them? What would they do to increase the grant? They have talked about the burdens on the farmers. What would they do to reduce those burdens?

All that sort of thing is very clever, when you have no case.

It is a new line of defence.

We are anxious to learn. I have explained why the grant was reduced. I pointed out that although the agricultural grant was reduced by £450,000 there was left in the pockets of the farmers this year over £3,000,000 which the Party opposite, were they in office, would have taken out.

A tall order, that.

One quarter of the land annuity charges which they paid in 1931 is all they are being asked to pay this year.

After having paid the land annuities in full already.

Deputies will have an opportunity of giving their views when the Minister has finished.

I would be glad to hear, particularly from Deputy Rice, how we are to get rid of the 40 per cent. duty. I advise him to get down to the Front Bench and have a little consultation with the occupants there before he talks, or he may find himself taking the long, long road he once took before.

To Ottawa and back.

I want to know if Deputy O'Higgins's objection to the payment of bounties on exports is held by the majority of that Party and I would like to know what is their general policy in respect of agriculture. We have given the farmers three-quarters of the land annuities this year. We have given them assistance in the matter of milk production. We have given them assistance which has secured for them a price higher than that secured by any other creamery suppliers in the world. We have given them a bounty in respect of wheat production and they are receiving a price for wheat higher than is paid in any country in the world.

And which they have to pay themselves.

As a result of our efforts the farmers have had the advantage of an improvement in barley prices and they have secured in respect of oats, although the price is low, a price higher than is obtained in Great Britain or Northern Ireland. We have taken certain measures in respect of bacon production, which have secured an additional market valued at £400,000 a year and which have brought the price of bacon pigs to a stage higher than in 1931. We have helped them to meet the fall in prices in respect of other commodities.

Although times are bad, and depression has had its effect, and although nobody in this country is as prosperous as he will be before Fianna Fáil has quit office, nevertheless the people are able to meet what is coming; they are better off than are the farmers in most countries; they appreciate what the Government is doing for them and, if Deputies opposite doubt that, we will be glad to give them another opportunity of facing the people and hearing from their own lips what they heard last January. Deputy O'Higgins talked about the manly course and the straightforward policy that should be taken. Let some Deputy opposite respond to Deputy O'Higgins's appeal, stand up manfully and straightforwardly, and tell us what that Party would advocate and what it would do if it got the chance. Perhaps the Deputy will tell us also if the rest of the Party agree with him in what he says.

I had not intended to intervene in this discussion until I heard some of the simple-sounding questions addressed to us by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I do not know whether it is correct to describe the Minister as having brains or as having character, or as having both brains and character; but one thing he certainly has got, and that is histrionic ability. I feel that he would have made his fortune on any stage. Now, who is this who is asking for elucidation and enlightenment about the policy of this Party? What could not be said about the vagueness, the ambiguity and the inconsistency of the policy of the Party opposite? Who can tell us whether their policy is to get back firmly into the British market, or get out of it and throw it aside for ever? Who can tell us whether they are in agreement with the speeches that they allow some of their supporters to make around about the country in favour of debasing the currency of this country, or in favour of expropriating the banks of this country? Who can tell us just what amount of sympathy they have with the existence of the I.R.A.?

I am perfectly well aware I am travelling outside the terms of this motion, but I submit I am not doing so to any greater extent than did the Minister. If we are to be cross-examined about every alleged ambiguity lurking in our policy, surely it is legitimate to cross-examine them too? I could mention a great many things that the policy of the Party opposite is very far from being clear on, and it is very far from being clear on these points, because they are aware of the fact that to become clear would be their own destruction. It is just the fact that there is ambiguity that gets them along at all.

There is no such obscurity about the policy of this Party and there is no difficulty about answering questions put to us so rhetorically by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Are we actually in favour, he asks, of giving back this money to the agricultural grant? The answer is very simple; it is "yes." He next asks us if we were to be put into office in this country would we start collecting the full amount of the land annuities. Well, now there can hardly be an educated person in this country that does not know full well that after what has been done to agriculture in Ireland the old scale of land annuities will never be collected again.

What is our plan for getting back the English market, for bringing the so-called economic war to an end? Have we not stated our plan hundreds of times? Our plan for getting back the British market is the very simple one of acting like business men and taking the necessary steps for getting it back. What are those steps, and what does this economic war—we have got to call it that for want of a better name—spring from? It springs from two things: one, the resolution of the present Government to treat obligations entered into by the previous Government as of absolutely no account; and, secondly, the attitude of the present Government with regard to the question of our relationship with the British Commonwealth. The two questions cannot be dissociated: one cannot be settled without the other being settled. Now these are questions that can be settled perfectly well and perfectly honourably, and to the great advantage of the people of this country, by making up our own minds as to what we want and by going and entering into negotiations in a businesslike manner.

The first obstacle that confronts the Fianna Fáil Party as regards making any sort of agreement with England is that they have not made up their minds, so far as I can gather, as to whether they want most: the unity of Ireland or a republic. If they made up their minds as we have made up our minds, that what we want is the unity of Ireland and the effective freedom of Ireland as a whole: that we are quite prepared to stay as equal partners in the British Commonwealth on that basis, well then it would be easy for them, as it would be easy for us if we were in power, to go to the British and say just that—to make perfectly plain what our ideal was, and to say at the same time that in view of constitutional developments in the last few years, in view of the Statute of Westminster and in view of the general feeling throughout the Commonwealth, that the time had come to remove, by mutual consent, any contractual obligations that may be thought to exist on this country to stay within the Commonwealth. In other words, to make it perfectly plain that we are absolutely free to go out of the partnership that constitutes the Commonwealth at any time the Irish people wish to do so.

Would the Deputy say that is the way to end the economic war?

I say that to make that position clear is the first step. As long as you have got a republic hanging about in the background you cannot get any further with the financial question. Of course, if you want a Twenty-six County republic, and if the people cannot be taught the folly of a Twenty-six County republic without first having one, then go ahead and declare your republic, and I must say that I do not know why you are not declaring it. Go ahead and declare it, and after a few years' experience we may have the commonsense to turn our thoughts once more to the unity of Ireland, to try and accomplish it, and come back into the partnership of the Commonwealth in order to do it. But you cannot make an end of the economic war until you put your cards on the table as regards your attitude to the whole question of constitutional relationship with Great Britain.

The British have already indicated on frequent occasions in the speeches of their Ministers that, in the whole of this dispute, they are not nearly so much interested in the financial aspect as they are in the constitutional aspect, and further in the general principle of the sanctity of agreements. It is perfectly well known to every thinking man, even in that Party, that if we acted in such a manner as to give evidence of our bona fide acceptance of the principle of the sanctity of agreements, and also if we made it plain that we were prepared to continue as free partners in the Commonwealth, agreement on the purely financial side could be got, and got without much difficulty; but the unfortunate thing has been that that Government and that Party have not been nearly as much interested in obtaining good terms for the Irish people as they have been in repudiating and dishonouring everything that was done by their predecessors in office. By doing so they have not only brought great dishonour on this country, but they have involved it in this economic war as well. There have been governments found in other countries who have thought nothing of sacrificing the honour of their country to material interests, and other governments that have thought nothing of sacrificing material interests to honour, but this Government has achieved the feat of sacrificing both simultaneously.

According to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, if we did succeed in getting back the British market by methods of frankness, of negotiation and goodwill it would be of remarkably little value to us when we had got it back. The Minister pointed to the bad condition of the farmers in England and Northern Ireland, as he is entitled to do, and indeed of farmers all over the world; but when he suggests that our highest ambition would be to make the Irish farmer no worse off than the English farmers or the Northern Ireland farmers are at present he is saying something that is not so, because much more than that could be accomplished. As I pointed out to him on a previous occasion, there ought to be joint action by the farmers in the Free State, the farmers in Northern Ireland and the farmers in Great Britain by which the farmers of these islands would get protection as against the foreigner, and that is what could have been accomplished at Ottawa if our case had been properly fought there, and that is what will be accomplished at some time in the future when there is a Government in office here with courage and intelligence enough to make a decent trade agreement.

The Minister has suggested that Deputy O'Higgins—I did not hear part of the Deputy's speech—has expressed himself as opposed to bounties. I very much doubt if that is a correct report of what Deputy O'Higgins said, but Deputy O'Higgins is certainly entitled to point out this: that it is perfectly ludicrous for a Government which is saying all the things that that Government is saying to be giving bounties, to be at one moment decrying the British market and the next moment to be spending all that money to get into it. When the Minister has the audacity to talk about prices, low as they are, and to say, "Well, it might be worse, or it really is not so terribly calamitous," let us ask him this question: what would the prices be if there were no bounties? The prices, bad as they are, are artificial and the collapse would be simply appalling if artificial measures were not taken to keep things going to some extent. The Minister for Industry and Commerce also accused this Party of having engaged in a campaign to prevent rates being struck by county councils. That is not true.

Not that Party—the Cumann na nGaedheal Party.

That is not so and the Minister knows it.

Was it not published in the Press and why had we to mandamus Deputy Belton?

Why did we not get our share of the Suspense Account?

In certain counties there was opposition to a rate being struck for reasons that I need not go into, but it is quite untrue that there was a general campaign by the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, so far as I am aware, against the striking of rates. If there were a general campaign, it would have been spread through all counties instead of being confined to a few. As far as I am aware, no such campaign took place or had official endorsement.

It was publicly endorsed by Deputy Cosgrave.

I have no recollection of any statement by Deputy Cosgrave on the subject. I believe there was a resolution passed congratulating some county councils——

On not having struck a rate.

For having taught the Government something. There was one resolution of one convention expressing sympathy for men who were honestly fighting, to the best of their belief, in the interests of the unfortunates who were not able to pay. If I had been a member of a county council myself my feeling is that I would absent myself rather than join in striking a rate——

A manly course.

It may have been improper to oppose striking a rate, but I do not know how anyone with any sort of feeling for the farmer could have actually taken an active hand in striking a rate in the circumstances existing and in the peculiar situation created by the Government's complete forgetfulness of its own pledges and by its reduction of the Agricultural Grant. We come back now to the fundamental fact, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce never so much as alluded to during his whole speech, that the present Government promised specifically full derating. In the election manifesto of the Fianna Fáil Party in January, 1932, full derating was specifically promised and was dropped.

We gave more.

Derating was dropped, but the Fianna Fáil Party reduced the land annuities instead. Why? Was it because after mature consideration they came to the conclusion that that was the best way to benefit the poor people? That was not the reason. They had all the materials before them when they promised derating for coming to that conclusion. The reason they changed their minds as to the proper form to give relief is this: they realised that they could not collect the land annuities which their own supporters opposed and would not pay. They thought the rates a less urgent problem and they thought it an easier matter to collect the rates than the land annuities. Now they find the collection of the rates difficult and they do not find themselves able to repeat their evasion of last year. They are now alleging there is a nation-wide conspiracy against the collection of rates.

No, not nation-wide. The Farmers' Party is not so wide as all that.

I am sorry to find a split in the Fianna Fáil Party. The President used the expression nation-wide conspiracy, and so I leave it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to rebuke him for saying anything so silly. A conspiracy was alleged and I take this opportunity with regard to that to repeat that the allegation is pure and absolute humbug and the march of events will show that it is humbug.

I have been listening to members on the opposite benches talking about the farmers and the hardships of the farmers. I am not a farmer but I know a good deal more about the farming conditions in the country than those who profess to speak for the farmers on the opposite benches.

That is one for Ministers.

I said on the opposite benches. I claim to know as much about the conditions of the farmers as those Deputies who a short time ago belonged to the Centre Party. On the average the small farmer in my constituency is a hardworking, patriotic Irishman. An attempt has been made in Cork County, for the past year and a half, to persuade these farmers that they were unable to pay their rates. It was attempted at meeting after meeting of the Cork County Council. The people who told them this, and how badly off they were, always made sure to have their own rates paid, but the other fellow was always very badly off. One of them of the landlord tribe boasted that while the de Valera Government were in power he would not pay any rates. Still, when the rate collector called upon him he wrote out his cheque. A good many more of them, in order to make it impossible for the Government to continue to collect the rates, left their land go to waste. They said it was no use to work the land. Still, when there was an acre wanted for a cottage for a labourer that land was not available; it got a tremendous value all of a sudden.

Deputy Dillon, who was one time a kind of leader in the Centre Party and who is now a petty leader of some kind in the new Party, said here last week that there were 1,500 people in the Square of Macroom assembled to hear him, and that about 80 or 90 supporters of de Valera came into the square and deliberately attempted to break up that meeting——

Is this in order on the motion before the House?

I am giving the Deputy a chance of showing its relevancy.

Deputy Dillon talked a good deal about farming and about the number of farmers that came to Macroom to listen to him. I am not a farmer, as I say, but I was there too and I say that a man like Deputy Dillon, who is in a responsible position, should not come to this House and make a deliberately false statement of that kind.

Deputies

Order, order.

The Deputy is not entitled to say that any Deputy made a deliberately false statement in this House. He may have made an incorrect statement, but to say that a Deputy made a deliberately false statement is not in order.

I withdraw the charge, but he made a statement that was not true or that was inaccurate. I think it is a wrong thing for a man—I am sorry he is not here—who is in a responsible position to come in here and tell the Dáil and through the Dáil tell the country that such a thing happened. It did not happen. I am not going to go into the details of what happened because I do not believe this is the place to go into the details. There was no attempt made to break up the meeting.

I am sorry but I must intervene to say that Deputy Dillon's version of what took place was correct, because I was there.

I say I was there too and it was not correct. There were interruptions, undoubtedly, but I have been interrupted several times at meetings myself. I like interruptions now and again.

What happened in Macroom is quite irrelevant to the motion before the House.

I am quite aware of that, but it was just as relevant on the day Deputy Dillon introduced it here. Deputy Dillon also spoke at a monster Hibernian demonstration in Ballyshannon some time ago, and he said there that "he wanted to tell the people of Donegal that he promised to remain independent and to concern himself with the rights and interests of his own people. He had done that and would continue to do that, and if they wanted a representative who would sell himself to Cumann na nGaedheal or to Fianna Fáil, they must look for someone else." These are the people who now come in here and tell us about derating, about land annuities and about how hard hit the farmer is.

And about the empty formula.

Yes, they talk about everything, like Deputy Anthony sometimes. It is about time that these people examined their consciences.

A Deputy

We have not any.

I do not think some of you have, but there are some honest men on the opposite side and it is about time they would stop trying to fool the country.

A Deputy

Agreed.

Deputy MacDermot and Deputy Dillon took a trip down to Cork last Sunday and they became poetic, or at least they took poetic licence. Deputy MacDermot gave us a new version of "The Wearing of the Green" in which he substituted fs"blue" for "green" and if I am not mistaken, it would be very easy to introduce the red and white. I suppose that is one way of setting the economic war with England. Deputy Dillon also took poetic licence and tried to start a new national anthem. I forget what the opening bars were. Those are the leaders or the sub-leaders who are going to help the country. They are going to lead the farmers. They know nothing whatever about tillage; they are afraid of their lives to till. Some of them told us here last year that barley was all right if it was cheap enough. More of them told us that barley was too cheap. They have been asked by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to try to agree on a policy. Why do they not try to agree amongst themselves and try to give a lead to the country that in some way would benefit the country instead of wasting the time of the Dáil and their own time in fooling the people of the country, telling them lies and making false statements time after time? They ought to try to get down to facts sometimes. They talk about the English market. Why do they not tell us what way they have of getting it back?

A Deputy

By sheriffs' sales.

Yes, we had a lot of them in the past while they were in office. I often saw myself where you tried to sell people's cattle to get the land annuities off them in order to hand them over to England. That was your policy and it would be your policy again if you got into power, but there is no hope for you ever. You are finished.

The last speaker has referred to the differences of opinion between Parties on this side of the House. If there are differences of opinion with regard to the price of barley, that is quite a natural thing. The farmers as a whole do not gain by having cheap barley or dear barley. I shall try to answer that part of the question. In a county into which feeding stuffs have to be imported it is an advantage to have cheap feeding stuffs, whereas in a grain-growing county it is an advantage to have them dear. There is one thing, however, on which farmers in all parts of the country will agree, and that is, that there should be a good price for the finished product—cattle, pork, pigs, eggs and butter—and this can only be obtained by the restoration of our chief market. These other contentious points that have been introduced do not affect the main question. The real necessity is to have a good price for the finished product and that will suit the interests of every class of farmer in the country. The Minister for Industry and Commerce referred to the fall in the price of primary products all over the world and he said that the price of agricultural produce has been hit more than any other. What has the Minister done to help the farmers, who are producing these agricultural products at an enormous loss? His contribution to relieve the situation has been to make the prices 40 per cent. worse than they would be in normal circumstances. Not only has he made them 40 per cent. worse in regard to what they had to sell in the midst of these admitted difficulties—and he did admit them—but he has made everything they have to buy dearer in order to help other industries at their expense.

They were hit not only in the price that they got for what they produced, but they were hit also in the price of what they had to buy. They had not only to bear up against the depression which he admitted existed, but they had to carry 40 per cent. over and above that. They had to prop up other industries at the same time. In order to make the position worse, he comes along and withdraws half a million in grants from these unfortunate farmers. It seems like a deliberate conspiracy amongst the Government to render the farmers bankrupt and to kill the one industry we have in the country.

The agricultural industry represents 75 per cent. of the production in the State or of the wealth-producing industries of the State. With the exception of one or two other industries such as Guinness or Ford's, it is the only industry in the State that is self-supporting. That industry has been killed. The Government has killed the only industry in the country that counts. The policy of the present Government so far as agriculture is concerned stands condemned, and it deserves to be condemned. I hope that the Government will even now take stock of the position and that they will do something even at the eleventh hour to save the country from complete ruin. They profess to believe that the farmers of the country are not so very badly off. According to Deputy Corry, before he withdrew his statement, the farms of the country were flowing with milk and honey. I think that if the Deputy went through the country he would find that there was very little milk and honey flowing so far as most of the farmers were concerned. The Minister for Industry and Commerce told us about the farmers in Northern Ireland and in England. I happen to live very near the Border and I know that at the last market in Cavan, when pork was sold for 40/- a cwt., it was sold for 58/- across the Border. That is one example. The same applies to fowl and to eggs and, of course, to cattle. I need not refer to cattle because that aspect has been adequately dealt with by other speakers. I think it was the Minister for Industry and Commerce who told us about the price of bacon here at present as compared with 1931. He did not tell us the price of pork or bacon pigs as compared with the same price on the same day in Northern Ireland.

They cannot send them into Northern Ireland. There is nobody buying pork in Northern Ireland at present and the Deputy knows it.

It would be a more appropriate comparison than comparing prices now with prices in 1931 and while there was such a discrepancy, 18/- a cwt., the retail price of bacon in the Free State was dearer on the same day than it was in Northern Ireland. I can produce figures to prove this. These are points which are very serious for farmers. We were told about the price the farmers are getting for milk. I admit that they are gaining in milk and butter but they are losing on so many other articles that they are producing —cattle, pork, eggs and fowl and any other articles which they produce. If they are gaining a little on the price of their milk, they are paying it out of the other pocket and they are entitled, even in normal times, because of the tariffs which they have to pay to prop up manufacturing industries in this State, to bounties on exports, so as to increase the price of their commodities. Even if there was never an economic war, they would be entitled to bounties on such commodities as butter, eggs and pork in order to compensate them for the losses they sustained through the tariffs imposed on them for the protection of manufacturing industries. They are paying almost double in the Free State what they are paying on the other side of the Border for wearing apparel and other necessaries. I admit that that is necessary and that we want to build up industries here. I quite agree that that is a good policy but the money raised in that way should go back to the agricultural community in bounties and these bounties should be confined to such commodities as would increase the price of the produce giving the most labour. That would suit the small farmer and the labourer as well.

The position of the farmer in the country and of the agricultural labourer as well, is terrible at the present time. I know that they are working on much less than the cost of production and that instead of having an ordinary living wage, they would not have five bob a week to live on and work as hard as they have to from year to year. I know, from experience, that no farmer is able to pay a labourer and say that he can make ends meet. I know of no small farmer whose family is working on the land, who is able to keep clothes on his family and feed them. That is the position in which they find themselves and I am surprised to see the Labour Benches empty with this motion before the Dáil. The leader of kid-glove Labour is not here but he would be very eloquent if a proposal were put forward to reduce a person's salary of £700 or £800 by a small percentage. He is not here, however, to defend the agricultural worker and the small farmer who are working as sweated labourers——

With the wages that you cut.

——at much less than cost of production. I do not believe that any average small farmer, or labourer, is getting 10/- a week out of that labour. I do not care what they convert their labour into, or what class of commodities they raise for sale. In face of that we find that these gentlemen are absent. It will be interesting to see what attitude they will take on this motion. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has asked Deputies on this side how they could settle the economic war. Deputy MacDermot has answered the question, so I need not go into it, but, speaking as an ordinary Deputy—and this is my own personal opinion—I have not consulted anybody—I would say that whatever the Government might do, they are not in a position to settle it for the reason that they repudiated agreements made by their predecessors and they have no moral right now to make an agreement, because some other party at present in the wilderness might be led into this House by Deputy Belton, or by some other modern Moses, and might repudiate that agreement when they came in here.

Moses is not here now.

I say that the present Government are not in a position to make an agreement, but I might make the suggestion that if they do want to settle this question, they would need to make some gesture and get all the Parties in this House to form a National Government and to recognise that there was such a thing as an agreement. It does not matter whether the agreement is good or bad. I am not going to stand up to defend it, but the fact is that there was an agreement and it should be recognised. What should be considered now is not the going back to the past, but dealing with the present and the future and to consider where the country is getting to and if an agreement is made to be in a moral position to say that that agreement is going to be kept. I do not think that the present Government can say that so long as they repudiate agreements of their predecesors because some other Party might come in, as I have said, and repudiate that agreement. This reduction of £440,000 is only a fraction of what the farmers have been deprived of. The Minister for Industry and Commerce told us that the proposal to reduce this was very unpopular. I say it was much worse because it is an unjust thing. It is an unjust charge on farmers to have to pay rates on land in any case, or in any circumstances. It is a sort of income tax on the income arising out of one particular class of business that does not apply to any other class and I have always strongly held the conviction that this is an unjust charge which should be abolished altogether. That means complete derating and not merely is £448,000 involved, but more nearly £3,000,000.

Is there anything else you would like?

Government speakers tell us that when they relieve the farmers of the responsibility of paying the able-bodied unemployed, it is a grant to the farmers. I wonder how they could bring themselves to think that that responsibility should be on the farming community. I would like to ask Deputy Corry, who should have responsibility for the able-bodied unemployed. If they are unemployed, I will not say that it is through the fault of the Government entirely, but the responsibility is on the Government to provide for them.

Considering that you advised people to sack them and got them to sack them, you ought to blooming well pay for them.

Men will not work if they are not paid and the farmers are not able to pay them. If farmers cannot afford to give more than they get from their own labour and the labour of their families—because farmers and their sons and daughters are sweated workers—they will not get employees to work. Farmers are not able to pay rates or annuities, let alone to pay labourers. I think it is admitted that the more they produce the more they lose, and the sooner they will be bankrupt. I knew farmers who employed labourers before the economic war started at all. These progressive farmers could not make ends meet. They kept six or seven labourers. They were progressive men, so progressive that they are gone out of the country. I do not know how many labourers Deputy Corry keeps, or what system of farming he follows. I know many farmers who have not the same market as Deputy Corry. He should be thankful that things are going so well and that his land is flowing with milk and honey. When Deputy Corry and those who hold the same views make statements, I hope they will be able to stand over them. I am not going to withdraw anything I said.

Some of the statements made from the opposite benches are in keeping with the promises that were made during the election. Statements are made in speeches but are withdrawn after five minutes. That is one of the things we have to complain about in the present Government. If they put a policy before the people, they should stand by that policy. But if they tell the people one thing, and then do another thing, I think the people have reason to complain. They did not tell the people at the last election that they were going to cut down the agricultural grant for the relief of rates. On the contrary, they let the people understand that the land annuities would be kept at home, and that the money would go towards complete derating for farmers. Speakers on the Government benches stated that the farmers had been given a present of three-quarters of the annuities. These speakers did not tell what British Ministers told, how much had been collected in taxes on farmers' produce. It is considerably over £3,000,000. A great deal more than the amount of the annuities has been collected. While it is admitted that farmers have paid a great deal more than the amount of the annuities in tariffs they are asked to pay half again, and are cut £448,000 that was to relieve the rates.

After Deputy McGovern's tears for the unfortunate farmers of Cavan, I cannot understand how there were from 20,000 to 30,000 people at the football match between Cavan and Galway last Sunday week, if they are so poor down there.

They had no right to be there at all?

I want to contradict the hypocritical statement of Deputy MacDermot, that there was not a no-rates campaign in the country, organised by what was his Party, but which has been lost in the merge. That campaign was conducted in my constituency by every branch of what was the Deputy's organisation. Farmers were got to sign undertakings that they would not pay rates. They wanted to get out President de Valera by the non-payment of rates and to put in who?—the warriors who are making war on the very poor; people who were going to rob of every benefit in the way of social services the neediest in the community. To whom did they go? Did they discriminate between farmers who are unable to pay and farmers who are able to pay? No. They went to the rich men in each parish, the men with the biggest holdings, who had gilt-edged security, and got their names as a headline for the rest. There was no discrimination between those unable to pay and those able to pay. The ringleaders of the campaign, the men who will be in arrears when this question is all threshed out, are the men who are best able to pay, the men who want to wreck this Government by inflicting injustice on the poor so that the curse of ranching might remain in the midlands. If they succeeded in that campaign it would mean goodbye to all sympathy for the poor and for those who are down. Deputy O'Higgins talks about being straight and manly. Let him advise his comrades, who are well aware of what I am saying, to be straight and manly; not to be saying one thing to-day and another thing to-morrow; that they do not stand for the non-payment of rates. Then the secrecy and the collusion of their lieutenants throughout most of the counties in that base campaign will cease.

Deputy McGovern referred to the markets in Northern Ireland. The Party to which he now belongs got out a leaflet. It was like the 24 bob leaflet with no printer's name on it that was put on the lamp posts, and for which apparently no Party took responsibility. This leaflet was distributed at the football match. It stated that butter was 8d. per lb. in Northern Ireland. Let them distribute that leaflet in the dairying districts. Deputy MacDermot talked about a combination of British, Northern Ireland, and the Free State farmers in order to secure a monopoly in the markets. The very Party that I now accuse of getting out that leaflet pressed for a free market for Australian butter which, if we had it, would smash the dairying industry in the south. There has been talk about the standard of living of the farmers. Every liner that calls at Galway, as Deputy Brennan knows, brings returning emigrants from the greatest country in the world, where they cannot get a living. Let Deputy Brennan ask some of those who have come back about farming conditions, and about other conditions, in the United States, and let him make a comparison between the standard of living there and the standard of living here. It will be a revelation. The great point in this whole debate concerns the price of cattle. That is the big argument. I contend that whether a beast cost £8 or £18, what the farmer is concerned with, after a period of four months' or six months' feeding, is to turn over 30/- or £2 on that beast. The man who bought in January in the Six Counties, even though he paid £3 per head more for his stores and sold them for £3 more than in the Free State, dropped an equal amount with the Free State farmer.

What about the man who bred them in the Free State?

The Minister for Agriculture has done his best and has come to his relief by defending and protecting the dairying industry.

Did he not lose £3 per head, on your own argument?

I want to point out to Deputy Belton that in Mullingar, at the last fair in January, when certain people read the paper and saw that the Government had dissolved the Dáil, they lost their heads, said "De Valera is beaten" and paid £2 or £3 over the market price. They have suffered the consequence since. But the men who bought cattle in April and May have turned a profit of 30/- or £2 or £2 10s. per head.

All over the Midlands.

You never bought a goat in your life.

Or grew a penny stick of rhubarb.

It takes a man to do that, not a corner-boy.

You talk about getting back the British market or a monopoly of the British market. Do you think that Britain, which has broken every agreement made with this country, is going to sacrifice the Australian, Canadian and Rhodesian farmer to satisfy us, if we adopt the policy of conciliation and humility advocated by the Opposition? No rational person believes that. The Government are this year giving back to the farmers, in the form of annuities, the sum of £3,225,000 and, because of a decrease in the Agricultural Grant of £200,000 as compared with 1931-32, this debate has been initiated. If this were a genuine debate, concerned with the effect of the decrease in the Agricultural Grant, it could be understood, but the subtlety in the debate is this— the Party which sponsors this motion, while denying any responsibility for the no-rate campaign, secretly engineered it and are carrying it on outside. If Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Belton and the rest want to be straightforward, let us have a straightforward repudiation, an unqualified repudiation before this debate ends and then we will get back to the point——

Ask the Kerry ratepayers to explain why the rates are not paid in Kerry.

I should like to know if the Deputy, in his closing remarks, suggested that I was furthering directly or indirectly, or in any way, a no-rate campaign. Did he convey that impression to the House?

That is not a point of order.

The motion before the House is "That the Dáil condemns the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land." My intelligence may be at fault, but I found it very hard to relate Deputy Kennedy's remarks to the motion before the House. So far as Deputy Kennedy, Deputy Corkery and the Minister for Industry and Commerce were concerned, there was hardly any need to tell the House that they did not follow farming. That was fairly evident. One of the most amusing arguments I ever heard was that put forward by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Corry and other Deputies on that side—that the Government are entitled to withhold a sum of £448,000 in grants because they are making a reduction of half the annuities this year. That is one of the most amusing things I ever heard.

I call it a joke.

You could not see a joke.

You will see it very soon.

Last year the Government came to the conclusion deliberately that the farmers were not able to pay any annuities at all. They withdrew the proceedings they had instituted against the farmers. Now, they say they must pay half the annuities this year. Because they are going to pay half the annuities this year they are to be docked £448,000. That puts the matter in a nutshell. We were not asked to pay last year and we got the £448,000 that is being withheld this year. The Government come along and say now: "We will remit half the annuities and compel you to pay the other half and because we are making a reduction of half on paper we are going to dock you £448,000." That is the most illogical and dishonest argument I ever heard. Deputy Corry, with all his blustering in this House, is a very simple man and is very useful to the members on this side. He tells us a lot of things that other members on that side would not tell us. To show the simplicity of Deputy Corry, let me refer to a statement made by him recently in this House. He stated that the remission of the unpaid annuities would be a great relief to the ratepayers. What were his grounds for that statement? His contention was that the man who did not pay any annuities for a good many years and who had them remitted now would, because he would be required to pay half the annuities in the future, pay all his rates as well as the apportioned parts of the annuities. He was referring to the man who had never paid annuities. That is the type of thinking done by Deputy Corry.

What the type of thinking of the Minister for Industry and Commerce is, it is hard to imagine. One thing exceeds the Minister's glibness and that is his arrogance and the manner in which he deals with a subject like this. It would be amusing if it were not such a tragedy to watch the manner in which he tried to cover up the situation by reference to the prosperity of the country in 1929 and the drop in prices in 1929, 1930 and 1931 as compared with the present time. He even went so far as to say that there was a bigger disparity in the prices of 1929 as compared with the prices of 1930-31 than there was in the 1931-32-33 prices. He did not expect anybody to believe any such thing. He could not expect them to believe it and he did not. Speaking in the House last week on the Unemployment Assistance Bill he said that the important thing in relation to economic affairs is the value of the production that takes place here. Then he goes on to show, as he tried to show this evening, that the disparity in figures was so great between those two years—1930 and 1931—there was such a drop in the value of production here that a Cumann na nGaedheal peace was worse than an economic war. The insinuation was that production had gone down in those years. Let us see what were the figures in those years. In his own publication we find that in 1927 the number of cattle shipped from this country was 377,965; in 1928, 421,280, in 1929, 416,410 and in 1930, 428,138. Those are the years in which quoting figures of money, due to world depression, due to things over which no Government had any control whatever, the Minister for Industry and Commerce wanted to convince the House that production had gone down in this country because the value of the articles produced in it had gone down. I certainly would not accuse the Minister of not having intelligence and ability. But that makes it all the worse when you get him making a statement like this: "In the two years the value of wheaten flour produced here decreased from £3,000,000 to £1,800,000." What are the facts? That the production of sacks of flour had not gone down in those years, but the price of foreign wheat went down and it cost the community in this country less to buy their flour. The Minister for Industry and Commerce tries to make capital out of that to show that the productivity of the country had gone down. That, to my mind, is perfectly dishonest.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce made one statement this evening that I certainly recommend very strongly to himself and his Party. He said that the proper thing for the people on this side of the House was to sit down and think and say nothing. That is the very thing that I recommend the Minister to do and which he ought to do. If the Minister, or the Front Bench, or the members of the Fianna Fáil Party would sit down and think out what is happening in this country at present they would, in my opinion, take some steps to remedy the state of affairs that is existing and that is coming upon this country. What is the position in the country at present? The position is that the country is living absolutely and entirely on its capital. Just as surely as any man might be living on the few pounds that he has in the bank or in the post office, drawing upon it week in and week out, or month in and month out, so surely is this country living on its capital.

The Minister referred to the price of milk and butter as compared with other countries. What has caused that? The subsidy. From whom? Is it a subsidy paid by England? Is it paid by Rhodesia or Australia or some foreign country? No, we pay it ourselves. We are living on a policy of subsidisation from beginning to end. How long is that going to last? How long can it last? If you were to withdraw the bounties and subsidies and the Government grants by way of road grants or anything else and withdraw pensions, whether old age pensions, military pensions, or British pensions, you would have absolutely nothing in the country. Is there any industry in the country at present living on its profits? That is a question I should like the Minister to think over. I strongly recommend the Minister to take the advice which he tendered us and to sit down and think out where he is going and where the country is going. That being the state of affairs existing, was the Government justified in withholding from the local authorities £448,000? The Minister for Industry and Commerce said it was. The reason this year was selected, he said, was because the farmers would only have to pay half the annuities this year; notwithstanding the fact that last year he told us we were able to pay nothing, and he did not ask us to pay and we got this £448,000. This is the year he selects to dock the grant, the year in which he says we must pay half the annuities.

There are only two things which would justify the withholding of this grant from county councils. One would be the increased prosperity of agriculture and the other a decrease in expenditure or else a recoupment of the revenue to the local authorities from some other quarter. Has any of those conditions been fulfilled? Absolutely none. The Government know as well as I do that the country is living on subsidisation, is living on its capital and that that cannot continue. Yet this is the time they select to dock us £448,000. Then we were asked to increase social services. We were pressed to build labourers' cottages. We are trying to build them. We have borrowed a considerable amount of money to build them. As far as our county council is concerned, and I think practically every county council in the Saorstát is in the same position, although the Government treated us with the utmost discourtesy and never informed us that our grant was to be cut—as a matter of fact they gave us to understand distinctly that it was to be the same as last year —we set out to prepare our estimates and for the sake of the workmen we maintained the roads at the usual rate. Then, when we had our estimate complete, the Government came along and said: "You must find certain other moneys from the people's pockets because we are not going to give the same grant." It was the first time that county councils had been treated in that way.

However, the county councils generally stood up to the situation and faced the position. I certainly say that as far as any general allegation is made that county councils or members of this Party went out on a "no-rates" campaign, I distinctly and definitely deny that. There was no such thing.

The position is now that, with depleted resources, county councils are trying to carry on. We are endeavouring to collect the rates against great odds. I am not referring now to any conspiracy that the Minister may say exists in any part of the country. I am referring to the fact that the prices of live stock and of agricultural produce have reached such a low ebb that the people have not money to pay. I know perfectly well what I am talking about. I was in the south of my county last Sunday week where the people every year pay their rates out of the price of their oats. What is the position there? The oats were threshed. The local dealer always gave them the sacks for the oats and he took their oats and exported them. This year he would not give the sacks; he had no sacks. He did not know what the business was going to be. The farmers had to cover up their oats in the fields after the threshing. Last week he came and gave them sacks and they are disposing of their oats at 6/- per barrel. These are people who took the advice of the Minister for Agriculture and the Fianna Fáil Party to go into tillage. How are we going to get rates from those people? I hope we will get them. We will make an effort to get them as far as we can.

I maintain that, with conditions like that in the country, it was the Government's responsibility to see that the grant was not curtailed and certainly that the position that existed in the country at the time did not justify the curtailment of the grant.

I think one of the most arrogant statements I ever heard in my life was the Minister for Industry and Commerce accusing this Party to-night of lowering public morality. Mind you, coming from the Fianna Fáil Benches it was amusing. There are many things which would not surprise me, but really that did surprise me, because there is one thing that this country will have to look to in the future and that is to try to blot out the demoralisation which Fianna Fáil has brought it. Fianna Fáil know that. They know it perfectly well. It is not a bit of a joke, nor the position of the country is not a bit of a joke. Even though Deputy Flinn and Deputy Corry and other people may make jokes about it, it is not a joke. If it were not for the tragedy it would be a huge joke—all this thing about "the British markets are gone, thank God; they were not worth holding." After all the President's statements about the British market, the only six cattle he ever had in the world he had to send them across.

What did it cost the State to send them there?

It has cleared up in any case this question of the tariff. We have it now on oath from the gentleman who bought the cattle that he paid £15 tariff to the British Government on cattle which were only value in this State for £14. I hope that will sink into the mind of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The members of the Fianna Fáil Party have been time and again trying to tell this House and trying to tell the country that as a matter of fact we were getting better prices here than were obtained in Northern Ireland—all this smuggling notwithstanding; we were to close our eyes to that. We are to close our eyes even to the man who according to this day's paper has had to forfeit 20 cattle and £100 by way of fine. Of course he was only doing that as a kind of amusement; it was not for profit. He would not run that risk except for the sake of amusing himself. All this is a huge joke. Then we have the Minister for Industry and Commerce boasting of the price of farm produce here, which the Irish people are paying for themselves. It is a case of the right hand pocket paying the left hand pocket. To any person here who has listened to Fianna Fáil on this side of the House and listened to them on that side of the House it is really amusing. I remember the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Finance, and Deputy Corry in particular, rising in these seats and demanding higher and greater grants for the poor ratepayers, the poor ratepayers who at that time were getting 100 per cent. more for their cattle than they are getting to-day. Fianna Fáil from these benches promised that if they ever got into power they would give us full and complete derating, and this is what we get. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, made another statement here. That was the statement which he made about ending the economic war. It will take a lot of Deputy Lemass's rhetoric to convince the people of the country that that economic war cannot be settled.

That it cannot be settled?

It will take a lot of your eloquence to convince the country that it cannot be settled.

Deputy MacDermot said it could be settled.

Quite, and I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce knows it can be settled, and so does the Minister for Agriculture.

Deputy MacDermot told us to pay the land annuities and take over the Six Counties.

We are paying them. The President admitted that.

What we ought to have in this House is a little more common honesty. It would take us a lot further if the Government had a little more common honesty and a little less of this spurious patriotism.

Dr. Ryan

Speak for yourself.

We hear all this talk about the British market which is gone, and which was not worth maintaining, but notwithstanding all that we find from the figures that at the present time we are sending over as much to the British market as ever we sent; but at what price? They are our only buyers. The Minister thinks that is a joke too. The Minister for Finance in this House some time ago said that were it not for the fact that we have an economic war and that the stock is being held on this side the price would be much lower on the other side. Of course he is not a farmer either. We heard a lot from the Government about winning the economic war, and the people are looking out for the victory. What will the victory be when it is won? The Minister for Industry and Commerce wanted to know from us a while ago what was our policy. What he said was in effect, "I am in the dock. If you were in the dock what would you do?"

What would you do?

Exactly, "What would you do?" Make your own defence. Defend yourself in this case. It is not customary, I think, for the accused to ask the accuser, "If you were in the dock what would you do?" It is not a customary way for conducting a defence, even before the Military Tribunal.

What would you do?

We would not plead guilty, anyway.

A Deputy

Oh no, you would be found guilty.

I should like to ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce a question, and I should like to receive an answer. I am not inviting interruption as the Minister does, but I should like to know what is this victory we are after. What are we out to win? If we win the economic war what will we have won when we have won it?

We will have won the war, of course!

Won the war, exactly —but the spoils will go to the British. They will have been gone by that time. We will have lost the market, and there will be no chance of reviving it. The President says we might as well be crying for the moon as looking for this market, notwithstanding that the only six cattle he ever had he sent over. What are we fighting for in the economic war? If there is a war on we must be fighting for something, and I should like to know what that something is if it is not the British market. The President says it is not, and I am still waiting to know what the victory will be when we have won it.

Why do you want to win it then?

Exactly, why do we want to win it? There is absolutely no industry in this country at the present time living on the profits of its own undertaking. They are all subsidised. How long can that continue I should like to know? Apart from politics altogether, and apart from the fact that I am one of the Opposition, I think that the Government should seriously consider the situation from that angle. This country is absolutely and entirely living on its capital at the present time, and that cannot continue. It is no good saying to the House that the Government was entitled to reduce the Agricultural Grant this year because it had halved the annuities.

Dr. Ryan

Quartered them.

Last year you declared that we should not pay any annuities, that we were not able to pay; and we had that £440,000. This year you have deducted that, and still you say that we have to pay quarter of the annuities.

We are getting a better price for the turf this year!

Deputy Corry told us that the withdrawal of the grants meant in Cork the withholding of £56,000. Remember that Cork did not pay any of that last year.

Yes, they paid the first half-year's gale.

I did not know that. They must have been very wealthy people if they did that.

Everybody did.

Is that so? In conclusion, I should like to say that neither of the conditions has been fulfilled which would justify the withdrawal of the agricultural grant. The two conditions which, to my mind, were essential would be that agriculture had become so prosperous that it did not need that subsidy or else the expenditure of local councils had increased by an equal amount. I maintain that neither one nor the other was in existence at the time.

This debate has ranged over a good many questions. Of course, there are a great many questions involved, but I think, after listening to the speech from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the person who would have the hardihood to say that the farmers are in any way embarrassed would have a colossal "neck." The Minister, in his most dogmatic fashion, has assured the people of this country that we never were as prosperous——

Oh yes— and that the farmer has got everything that should make him happy and contented. The Minister went further. He cited the reduction of the land annuities to one-quarter and he told us of the various grants that the farming community will be in receipt of. He failed, however, to tell us or to admit the fact that the farmers of the country are not only paying their land annuities in full but paying the impost as well of the R.I.C. pensions and local loans. He asks the question of us: "Do we intend to pay the land annuities if we are over on the benches opposite?" I should like to ask him a question in return.

Why not answer the question?

Suppose the British agree to your terms of arbitration and that the case goes against you, will you pay?

Of course.

How are you going to collect these land annuities off the farmer even using the sheriff and every means you can? What will you do if the case goes against you?

The Minister will have to speak up a bit because that is like the ridiculous statement he made the other day. He said that he was not aware of ridiculous things when I asked him about the poultry in Longford. It is no small matter. He told me the other day that he was not aware of ridiculous things when I asked him the question was he aware that a number of poultry had been sent to the British market and because of the workings of the tariff there the exporter got a bill for 3/6 instead of receiving any return and, further, that seven people who have been in permanent employment for years are now unemployed. That, to him, is a ridiculous thing that he is not aware of. It would be much better if the Minister would go out through the country and consult the farming community who have large families to support and who are faced with the increased rate that the withdrawal of this amount has imposed on them. I agree that there are people in the country able to pay the rates and I hope they will pay them. I agree that, because of the circumstances in which we find ourselves, obedience to the law is the best doctrine anybody can preach in this country and, as one who has preached that doctrine since we got our own Parliament, I am glad the stage has arrived in which everybody in this House, including the Government, is preaching the doctrine of obedience to the law. The charge was made here this evening by Deputy Kennedy—I am sorry that he is not here at the moment—that the Farmers' Party in his county started the "no rates" campaign. I admit that he did not start a "no rates" campaign in his own county, but he certainly came to my county in 1931, to the village of Ballinamuck, and there preached that doctrine to the large farmers and the small farmers of the Ballinamuck district and, consequently, to the people of Longford. He said that the first responsibility of the farmers was to feed and clothe themselves and their families and to let the sheriffs and the Government go to hell, to use his exact words. That was all right for a Fianna Fáil Deputy then in Opposition, but it seems that is very bad tactics for a Fianna Fáil Deputy when he happens to be a member of the Government Party. I should like to remind him and the members of the Government opposite that if there is a "no rates" campaign in any part of the country it is in the part where they themselves have the greatest support, and that that is due in no small measure to the policy they preached for the years in which they were in Opposition.

During the election of 1932 the farmers were told that they were robbed; that Mr. Cosgrave was the greatest robber that ever God put into this country; that he frittered away £5,000,000 of the people's money. They told the people "Return us to office and we will relieve you of that £5,000,000 right away. We will give you complete derating and increase the grants necessary for the social services. We will build houses as fast as mushrooms," and so on. There is no use in going into all they said—employment for everybody, etc. Where are those promises gone? They were then talking to a farming community who were receiving prices for their produce from 20 per cent. to 30 per cent., and in some cases, 60 per cent. more than they are receiving to-day. They promised that if they were returned to office the farming community would be put into the heaven that Mr. Lemass, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, attempts to contend that they are in now.

In every part of the country the farming community are hard hit, and the time when they are hard hit is the time that the Government decides to reduce this Agricultural Grant. When the income of the farming community has been depressed by 30 per cent., 40 per cent. or 50 per cent. that is the time the Government select to put an additional load on their shoulders. They tell us that the farming community are in the front line of trenches and that they are going to receive some benefit later on. What are the benefits that the farmers can secure if this policy of the Government continues? The Minister does not tell them whether or not it is the restoration of the market. He does not tell them whether he is going to increase the price of the oats that are now lying unsaleable in every barn in the country. But he tells them to get on and develop the policy of Fianna Fáil, namely, the policy of self-sufficiency. That is the self-sufficiency which if brought to its logical conclusion will see the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce standing behind the little wheel down the country spinning and doing things like that until the time comes when we will be all wearing the bawneens.

I admit that there is very much to commend the promotion of cottage industries and that these would help the people to exist perhaps in the frugal comfort outlined by the Government. But at the same time we have a market within very easy distance of our country, and it is natural that we should do everything possible to do what all the countries in the world are doing—to retain that market. It has been pointed out here this evening that when the President, or perhaps it should be the Attorney-General, had a a few cattle to sell there was only one place in which to sell them—Great Britain. It is an extraordinary situation too that cattle, valued at £14 in Dublin, a price said to be a good price, had to pay a tariff at the other side of over 100 per cent. That is a most extraordinary situation indeed.

We are told day after day that the Northern Ireland farmer is not a bit better off than the farmer in the Saorstát and that prices for cattle and agricultural produce in Northern Ireland are not better than the prices here. If that is the case—we know, of course, that it is not—why should people in the Free State try to smuggle cattle across the Border? What would be the advantage? The extraordinary statement was made here this evening that there were attempts being made to bring cattle and agricultural produce here and that they were being smuggled across the Border into the Saorstát. That would certainly be like bringing coals to Newcastle.

The County Longford is a county of small farmers, at least the greater part of the county is. In every case the reduction of this grant means a considerable increase in the rates. No matter how small the farm is or how small the rent or how small the valuation, the farmer in any one of his sales in the local fairs pays his rent and rates in full through the operation of the tariffs. As a matter of fact, the housewife by the loss that she has sustained in the sale of her poultry and eggs without including cattle, sheep or pigs at all, pays the rent and rates three or four times over. In any one of these small farms there is reared a flock or two of turkeys, a flock or two of geese, and large numbers of chickens. It was from these sources that the farmer's wife in many cases derived her income, and she did a great number of things with the money so earned. Now, that whole trade has been completely wiped out.

The housewife has been sustaining very heavy losses since the commencement of the economic war in the matter of her poultry and eggs. For the last month in particular that whole trade has been completely wiped out. It was with the money made on these things that the farmer's wife paid for a number of the small things she had to purchase for the house. Very often, too, the workmen's wages were paid out of these moneys. Yet, at the very time when that income had been wiped out, at the time when the majority of these people are brought face to face with poverty, that is the time when the Government says "you must pay more rates than you paid last year; we are going to reduce the Agricultural Grant by £448,000." Therefore, I contend that the members of this House, no matter on which side they sit, whether on these benches or on the opposite side, should have the interests of the farming community at heart and should support this motion. If members on the Government Benches do not want to support this motion publicly, I submit that it is their duty and it is their responsibility to tell the Government the hardships they are imposing on the people and to induce them to take steps at the earliest possible moment to relieve the people from these hardships. It is their duty to use all their influence with the Government to induce them to restore that £448,000 which the Government has taken from the Agricultural Grant. Furthermore, it is the duty of the Fianna Fáil supporters to see that the moneys that have been funded under the Land Bill, which are to be paid to the Central Fund should be paid in full to the local authorities. These moneys, beyond question, are due to the local authorities and they should be paid to them in full, thereby relieving the farming community to some extent, at any rate, of the burdens which they are now compelled to bear.

Mr. Davis rose.

Is the Deputy moving the adjournment?

Yes. I move the adjournment of the debate until Wednesday next.

There is a meeting of the Committee of Procedure and Privileges arranged for 10.45 to-morrow morning. I ask the Deputies who are members of the Committee to bear that in mind.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. to 3 o'clock on Wednesday next, the 11th October.

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