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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1933

Vol. 50 No. 1

Agricultural Produce (Cereals) (Amendment) Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

The necessity for this Bill, so far as my Department is concerned, arises from a few small difficulties which have been experienced in the administration of the original measure. The late date on which that Act became law rendered it impossible for wheat growers to qualify for payment of wheat bounty in view of the terms of sub-section (2) of Section 71 which provides, inter alia, that no bounty is payable on home-grown millable wheat "unless such wheat was grown on premises entered in the register of wheat growers during the period of three months next preceding the commencement of the cereal year." That is to say, before the 1st May. It became evident that, notwithstanding the publicity given to the scheme through the medium of advertisements, posters and lectures, a number of wheat growers had failed to realise the necessity for registration. I may mention, incidentally, that 8,000 odd wheat growers had registered up to 31st July last and that about 2,000 more have applied since. It seems only equitable that in the initial stages of a scheme of such national importance, persons who have grown wheat of millable quality should not, on a technicality, be deprived of the bounty, and the object of Section 8 of the Bill is to extend for this year only the period during which applications for registration will be regarded as satisfying the requirements of Section 71 (2) (a) of the original Act. Section 8 of the amending Bill deals with that matter.

A slight amendment of Section 76 (1) is necessary to cover the case of a person who is registered as a wheat dealer. He may, for instance, dispose of it, in opposition to the intention of the Act, by transferring it to premises for which he holds a permit under Section 36 of the Act. The wheat dealer who buys wheat on which a subsidy is payable may, contrary to the intentions of the Act, dispose of it to his own mill. That is a thing which we want to make right under Section 9 of this Bill.

Part III of the Bill deals with the important question of the sale of home-grown wheat for seed. It is desired to encourage licensed millers and registered wheat dealers to reserve, if they so desire, some of the better samples of wheat for sale for seed, and provision was made for such sales under Section 76 (3) of the Act. I regard it, however, as an essential condition of such sales that the vendor, who will no doubt expect and receive an enhanced price for such wheat, should refund to the State a sum equivalent to the bounty payable to the grower thereof. There is, of course, the obvious danger that without some such precaution bounty might have to be paid twice, or oftener, on the same lot.

There is also, as I mentioned when speaking on a previous occasion, the point that the dealer or the miller buying wheat from the farmer, paying the ordinary price for it, on which wheat a subsidy would be receivable from State funds, would be in a very favourable position competing against the ordinary seed merchant or the ordinary merchant in selling wheat. The only way we can bring them, more or less, on terms of equality is to compel the wheat dealer or flour miller to refund the amount of the subsidy to the State after the wheat has been sold for seed. The powers conferred on me by Section 76 (3) did not, however, enable me to deal with this matter adequately and Part III of the Bill is intended to remedy this by definitely requiring the licensed miller or registered wheat dealer to refund the bounty in cases in which he resells wheat for seed. The other conditions upon which such sales may be effected are laid down in detail in Section 11 of the Bill and are not, as in the original Act, left for settlement by regulations. Another matter has arisen which may be raised on the Committee Stage of the Bill. It refers to Section 81, which deals with the sale of pure maize for human food. I merely mention the matter now because I think it may be necessary, if an amendment is possible, to bring it in on the Committee Stage of the Bill. There are also in the Bill two sections which are more concerned with that part of the measure which is administered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce than they are with the part administered by my Department.

As Deputies are aware, there are two classes of millers under this Bill—the licensed miller and the permitted miller. The licensed miller can buy wheat on which a home grown wheat certificate is issued and the seller of the wheat is entitled to the bounty. The permitted miller, on the other hand, is not in a position to buy wheat under these conditions. If he buys wheat, there is no bounty given. Therefore, the farmer would not be disposed to sell his wheat to the permitted miller unless the permitted miller would give him the same price as the licensed miller would give, plus the bounty. The difficulty arises in drawing the line between the licensed miller and the permitted miller. There are very small millers who have done a good deal on a commission basis—taking the wheat from the farmers, milling it and returning it to the farmers for their own use. We should like to encourage that business and to see that farmers have their own wheat milled for their own purposes. I think there will not be any great difficulty in encouraging that business because farmers who get into the habit of growing wheat will be inclined to have a few barrels of the wheat milled for their own use. But there are millers in a small way who do a good deal of that commission business and who do also a certain amount of importing or buying wheat to mill for sale. If they were to apply for licences, they would be compelled to obey all the regulations laid down for the licensed miller and they would be subject to the penalties prescribed. Amongst the penalties is one of a fine in case the quota for which they apply is under-milled. There is an amendment in this Bill exempting from penalty millers who mill less than 1,000 barrels a year. That will give a chance to those small millers, who are partly commission millers and partly licensed millers, as described in this Bill, to exist. These are the points which have been dealt with. In a Bill of the magnitude and importance of the Cereals Bill, which went through early this year, it would be absolutely impossible to foresee all the difficulties that might arise in the administration of the measure. These few amendments become necessary at this stage and in all probability, as time goes on, other amending Bills may have to be introduced.

This is the first amending Bill introduced to that monument of Fianna Fáil agricultural policy—the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Bill, 1931. As I was considering these amendments, I came across a most astonishing speech by the father of this legislation, delivered five years ago— on 30th May, 1928. I think that it is right that the House, when considering these amendments, designed to facilitate the administration of this enlightened Act, should hear what the Minister had to say when he was a humble Deputy, sitting on the benches of the Opposition five years ago. In Lewis Carroll's book, "Alice Through the Looking Glass," there is a character—I think he is the "White Knight"—who was constantly embarrassed by the fact that, when he began to talk, he found that, do what he would, he always began at the end of the sentence and talked backwards. In that way, he found it extremely difficult to get people to understand him. The Minister for Agriculture when he was humble Deputy Dr. Ryan was discussing with the then Minister for Agriculture, now humble Deputy Hogan, a tariff on flour and this is what Deputy Dr. Ryan said:

"I have always believed, myself, that it would be a great thing for agriculture in this country if offals could become cheaper, but I never saw a better case than the figures supplied by Professor Whelehan. I had no idea that the Irish farmer was at such a great disadvantage as he is, undoubtedly, at by the movements of trade in flour and offals as they at present obtain. I had no idea that in Denmark, for instance, they get far more than their share of offal and Ireland gets far less than its share, and these two countries compete in the British market for the production promoted by the feeding of those offals, as you might say, afterwards."

It will be observed that Deputy Dr. Ryan was "playing England's game" and was guilty of the shocking treason of being solicitous about the welfare of the Irish farmers in the market that President de Valera thanks God is gone for ever. I suppose there has been an Act of Indemnity passed since Fianna Fáil came into office to excuse Fianna Fáil Ministers for acts of treason committed five years ago. Deputy Dr. Ryan went on to say:

"If the offals were reduced in price, that in itself would be a subsidy, and it would be a further inducement—a small inducement, at any rate—to farmers to fatten their cattle in the winter and to raise beef at the very time when a good price could be got for it."

More high treason!—the raising of cattle and fat stock for the British market, for the feeding of John Bull! The Deputy proceeded:

"It is easy for any Deputy interested in farming and who knows the amounts of meal ration required to turn out and produce, say, a gallon of milk or a dozen eggs, to work out what the reduced price would mean."

He goes on to point out how we could facilitate the production of milk and eggs and a variety of other commodities which, he thought, should be disposed of in the hated British market. Now, he explained also, very lucidly, that some poor fools imagined that the imposition of a tariff on flour, and legislation along the lines of the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act, would increase the price of bread and the price of flour. Deputy Ryan, as he then was, proceeded to scotch that fallacy. He said:—

"Suppose we put a tariff of 3/- a sack on flour—and while everybody admits that the mills would ultimately be able to mill a hundred per cent. of our requirements—suppose that while the mills were getting going a certain amount of flour were allowed in under permit. In that way there would be no increase in the cost of flour, and consequently there should be none in the price of flour. Nobody would suggest, I presume, that if mills which are now working half-time were working full time they would increase the price of flour. In fact, one would expect that the flour would be sold cheaper, because the overhead charges would be the same, and when they were turning out twice as much flour as they turn out at present, the flour should be cheaper."

He then went on to explain how the possibility of a rise would be corrected by the admission of flour under licence. He declared that there was a mare's nest, that there was no danger whatever.

The time came when Deputy Ryan became the Minister for Agriculture, and, with the assistance of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he put all those pious thoughts into a Bill which was carried through this House and which is now an Act of the Oireachtas. What is the result? The price of flour in this country varies between 3/6 and 5/6 a sack dearer than in Great Britain. The benefit that was to be conferred on our agricultural community to facilitate their treacherous activities in feeding John Bull has vanished and, instead of cheaper offals, our offals are 30 per cent. dearer than the offals that are available in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Instead of being able to get feeding stuffs for the production of eggs, milk, poultry and beef cheaper than we ever got them before, we are to-day paying £1 15s. a ton more for offals than they are paying in Belfast.

Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, deplored the appalling handicap under which our farmers were competing in the British market as compared with Denmark. To-day he declares that the handicap of 40 per cent. in the British market is of no consequence, is doing no harm, has not resulted in a worse price for our farmers at all. His leader has gone a step forward. His leader said it was all wrong, that it was playing England's game, that it was treachery to the Irish nation to have any solicitude for the British market because, he said, it is gone, and he thanks God it is gone. I remember when the Minister for Finance was introducing his Budget. He wound it up with a burst of passionate eloquence and he said that if taxation must be heavier, at least there would be bread for the poor. Yes, but dearer bread.

Strangely enough, the prognostication of Deputy Patrick Hogan, then Minister for Agriculture, has been exactly fulfilled. The result of the tariff on bread has increased the price of the 4-lb. loaf by 1d. and the price of the 2-lb. loaf of everyday bread is increased by ½d. If that were added together, on the report of the Tariff Commission, who held that the average consumption of flour in this country was a sack and a half per individual, the additional cost imposed upon the community by the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act is gigantic. Let us, for the sake of conservatism, fix the annual consumption at a sack per head of the population.

Does this really arise on this amending Bill?

This Bill is designed to facilitate the operation of the principal Act. I respectfully submit that it falls for consideration as to whether this Bill should properly pass in order to facilitate the operation of an Act which is causing grave hardship and which is defeating the ends for which it was originally designed.

The proposal to facilitate the administration of the Act can be discussed only in the particular direction in which it is proposed so to facilitate the principal Act. I allowed the Deputy to make quotations from the statement of the Minister for Agriculture when he was a Deputy. Those quotations were not relevant because the Minister was not then discussing an Act which was in operation.

It is somewhat difficult to sort out the exact repercussions of each section in this amending Bill. It is difficult to indicate how far they penetrate into the principal Act. I thought it was better to avoid wearying the House by first defining how each particular section travelled through the body of the principal Act —I was approaching the matter in a general way.

The Deputy is making a Second Reading speech on the principal Act.

I submit it is virtually impossible to separate accurately this amending Bill from the body of the principal Act. You have to consider the whole effect of the principal Act in order accurately to get at the effect of the amending Bill.

The Chair cannot allow the principle underlying an Act which the House has passed to be discussed; the principle underlying the principal Act clearly cannot now be discussed.

I have no desire to argue the relevance of my observations with the Chair. All I am submitting is that the provisos contained in the Bill are directed towards facilitating the carrying out of certain operations under the principal Act. The effect of those operations has been to increase the cost of certain commodities to the public. I am submitting that the increased cost involved is a potent argument against affording these additional facilities that the Minister now seeks. It was virtually admitted to-day that as a result of some of the powers conferred on millers under this Act the price of offals which Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, foresaw would be cheap has, in fact, advanced 100 per cent. You have a situation to-day in which admittedly a greater proportion of flour is being milled in this country than was milled in it two years ago. That is all to the good, but, owing to the inept way in which that end was arrived at, the additional quantity of flour is being milled in this country at an annual cost to the community of about £350,000. The additional milling which is being carried on at best put 300 extra men into work. It would have been cheaper to give each one of those men the salary of a Parliamentary Secretary and send him home to rest himself and to consort with his family than to have put the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act into operation.

That is a mighty achievement for Fianna Fáil. I congratulate them on it. But that is only half of the Bill. They have provided the salary of a Parliamentary Secretary for every man who has been put into employment by this Bill. We then proceed to count the cost that falls on the farming community. You can buy wheat pollard to-day in Belfast at a price that would leave it £4 5s. per ton delivered home. We are paying Irish millers £6 and £6 5s. per ton for the identical commodity that we could get for £4 5s. We have against us in the British markets a tariff of 40 per cent. To offset that tariff we have bounties given by the Free State Government. But these bounties are taken back by the increased prices of pollard and feeding stuffs that the Irish millers of this country are in a position to extract from the agricultural community under the provisions of the Cereals Act.

Sometimes when logic can be brought to prove that a certain course of action was folly you would be justified in changing your course of action. But there are other occasions when the best way to convince the Irish people of their own folly is to allow them to burn their fingers. For good or ill this legislation is in force. It is extremely complicated and extremely difficult for the man in the street to understand it. It has the blessing of Fianna Fáil. It is declared to be the patriotic duty of every Irishman who wishes to serve his country to throw his back into it. I am convinced from the point of view of experience and reason that the cost of this legislation is out of all proportion to the benefits to be conferred on the community. I am convinced that the benefits derived from this Bill could have been got at a tithe of the cost if the Government had gone the right way about it. I also believe that the best way to teach the people that this kind of operation is folly, and undiluted folly, is to let it be worked out to its logical conclusion. In my opinion the man best fitted for that task is the present Minister for Agriculture. I am quite content to let his reputation stand or fall by the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Act and the Bills amending it. When it comes to the fall I will be only too glad to buttress the Minister to prevent his fall being too heavy. But that collapse is certain, as this whole scheme of control as incorporated in these Acts is going to develop. Then the destruction of the Minister will be a terrifying spectacle.

I am convinced there is no half-way house between Rome and Babylon in this matter. The Minister will be driven to the conclusion soon that he will have to nationalise the milling industry of this country or else to abandon legislation of this character. He can abandon legislation of this character and at the same time ensure that 90 per cent. of the requirements of our people in flour will be manufactured in this country and that no foreign or domestic miller will be able to get exclusive control of the flour milling industry. He can do that without this instrument. If he does not proceed to do that without this legislation, then as certain as this House is sitting to-day he will be forced to nationalise the milling industry at no far distant date. In my opinion that will be a great catastrophe for our people. It will be a catastrophe that will involve them in heavy cost and heavy expenditure and they will get very little from it. I am satisfied on the Minister's own statement when he was a Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party in this House, that it can be made manifest that this legislation has collapsed, has failed in its purpose and that it is costing the country a sum out of all proportion to any benefits that it may have conferred upon the community. At the same time, I hold the view that this is a kind of lesson best learned by experience. It is the kind of method by which the people of this country will best learn the meaning of legislation of this kind. They will learn it by experience. For that reason I do not propose to vote against or obstruct the passage of this amending Bill.

The Minister to conclude.

Would the Minister explain Section 13 of this Bill?

Dr. Ryan

I do not know if the Deputy followed what I said when I was explaining the Bill. If wheat dealers buy wheat at the present time they buy at 17/- a barrel. There will be paid then to the farmer at the end of this period, that is at Christmas, the difference between 17/- and 23/6. On the other hand, if a seed merchant were to buy that wheat for seed, there would be no subsidy, because of the fact that it was for seed. Otherwise, if farmers sell their wheat for seed they would be getting a subsidy as additional profit to put into their pockets. We, by this Bill, are proposing to levy a subsidy back for that again. Perhaps that explains the section.

With regard to some remarks made by Deputy Dillon, I think it would be too much to expect a person to follow all the arguments raised by the Deputy and to answer them in a lucid way. The arguments were not put in a lucid way, nor in a way in which one could follow them. The Deputy read some extracts from a speech I made on a previous occasion. I said then that if a tariff were put on flour, and if as the result of that tariff the millers were working full time instead of part-time, they could sell flour at a lower cost.

They are not doing it.

Dr. Ryan

Whether they are doing it or not is a different question. I do not accept what the Deputy says about that. The Deputy compares the price here with the price in England where at the moment there is a trade war on and it is said they are cutting prices. I do not know whether that is true or not. On that occasion also I said that Denmark was getting more than its share of the offals; that is that more than its share of the offals were imported to Denmark with the flour. Denmark imported a certain amount of flour from England. We were also importing a certain amount of flour from England but we were not getting our share of the offals with the flour we imported while Denmark was getting more than her share. That was the position at the time. Deputy Dillon says that offals are selling at such and such a price. I think he quoted the figure of £6 10s 0d.

No. £6 0s. 0d. and £6 5s. 0d.

Dr. Ryan

I happen to have got a price list a week or two ago from the firm I deal with myself, and the price quoted is £5 5s. 0d.

You get them cheaper than the rest of us.

Dr. Ryan

No. This is a stencilled price list that was sent out. Prices are quoted for white pollard and white bran and so on.

Does the miller make two grades of pollard?

Dr. Ryan

He does, of course.

What is the price for best white?

Dr. Ryan

I am only quoting for white.

What is the price quoted for best white pollard?

Dr. Ryan

He makes white and red. Best white is quoted at £5 5s. 0d.

He only makes one grade of white pollard?

Dr. Ryan

He only quotes for one. As the Minister for Industry and Commerce said to-day, if we were importing offals we would naturally be worse off. The position at that time was that we were paying for our offals the price at Liverpool, plus freight to the Free State. That was the complaint that we made at that time: that if we were making our own flour here we would have the offals at a price less that freight. Now we are actually exporting offals.

But offals are available at £4 5s. to the importer?

Dr. Ryan

If people are prepared to carry on business here, pay the freight across and back and the 20 per cent. at the other side, and still keep more here than they were keeping before there was any freight or tariff, then all the argument against the economic war goes for nothing because tariffs or freight mean nothing to us. Deputy Dillon complained about the 40 per cent. tariff on cattle. Surely the argument must apply both ways. If the 40 per cent. tariff hits us by reducing the price of our cattle it must also have the effect of reducing the price of our offals here in spite of the 20 per cent. and the payment of freight. Deputy Dillon said that the Principal Act was all wrong. He made the general argument that the whole thing was wrong; that the sooner it failed the better to show the people that we were wrong. He was prepared to stake his reputation on that. So am I. While he said that the whole thing was wrong, he did not explain why. I spent a not very profitable hour on Sunday last reading the policy of the new Party. I find from it that they are going to encourage the growing of grain. What is the complaint?

Dr. Ryan

To get it grown. They did not say how or why.

For what purpose?

Dr. Ryan

They did not say how, why or what. Neither did Deputy Dillon. Deputy Dillon did say that if we wanted to go on with this cereals production then either we should nationalise the whole thing or drop it. Is that the policy of Deputy Dillon, or is it the policy of the new Party to nationalise the mills?

May I say that the Minister is not clear in his recollection of what I said.

Dr. Ryan

I admitted that at the start.

I can give the Minister an argument but I cannot give him a brain to understand it.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy has nothing to spare. The general argument against the Bill was that the whole system was wrong. The Deputy is not going to oppose the Bill but he did say that the whole system was wrong, and that the best thing to do was to let the people have experience of it. For the period that Fianna Fáil remains in office I suppose that will be quite a good test. We will then see whether the people want this Bill or not. I shall be quite satisfied with the verdict if the Party opposite are satisfied.

Would the Minister be good enough to deal with the calculation I made as to the cost of this Bill, and the cost of the increased price of flour on the community as well as the amount that that represents for each additional workman that has been employed in the flour mills of the country since the Principal Act came into force?

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy himself said the whole thing was wrong.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 22nd November.
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