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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 May 1934

Vol. 52 No. 15

In Committee on Finance. - Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1934—Second Stage.

I move that this Bill be now read a Second Time. Deputies are aware of the circumstances which have necessitated its introduction a second time in this year, therefore, I do not think that there is any need for me to say anything on it at present.

Since the last Bill was before the House a certain number of points have arisen in connection with Army administration to which, I think, the Minister ought to address himself before the Bill passes through the Dáil. Quite a number of questions have been raised here recently in connection with men discharged from the Army reserve. The Minister told us this afternoon, in reply to a question, that from the beginning of this year 61 men of good character had been discharged from the Army reserve for no reason stated except that they were no longer required. During the same period the Minister has got permission from the House to form a special Volunteer force. There is no doubt at all about it that from an ordinary Army point of view the best soldier-material that a Minister could have in the country to-day is an Army reserve. The men who are serving their time as ordinary soldiers in the Army to-day are being trained. I suggest that only a very small percentage of them can have had such a full experience as the men who, having served their full period in the Army and particularly in past years, have also served for several years in the Reserve. Therefore, the most experienced, the most highly trained and the most reliable material as soldiers that the Minister could have are the men of the Army reserve.

The 61 cases studded around the country have happened since the beginning of this year. These are men who have had long experience in the Army as well as long service in the Reserve. Their character has been testified to by the Army authorities as being "very good," and yet they are simply told that they are no longer required in the Army. The Minister, when dealing with some supplementary questions put to him on different occasions in connection with this matter, has allowed himself to slip into the expression that "they were kicked out." The Minister, in fact, has, in my opinion, put these men out of the Army for political reasons. He has received, I submit, suggestions from the local Fianna Fáil club that they are not of the same political complexion as the Minister, and on these grounds alone, I submit, the Minister has put them out of the Army.

The Minister has endeavoured to suggest here that the Army authorities reviewed the cases of these men, and that on a review of the circumstances of these men put them out of the Army. The Minister has endeavoured to suggest that the initiative came from the military authorities. I want to tell the Minister that I do not believe a single word of it. I do not think that anyone in the House or in the country does. The distribution of these dismissals from the Army, because that is what they are, is rather interesting. Out of a total number of 61, we find that 10 are from the County Westmeath, 11 from the County Tipperary and 18 from the County Cork, so that the concentrations in regard to these dismissals are in these three counties: Westmeath, Tipperary and Cork. Only in two other counties was the number of people discharged as high as four, namely, Wicklow and Limerick. There were 12 counties in which there was no one discharged at all. If the Minister challenges what I say, and I am sure he will, it would be interesting to hear from him what are the special conditions existing in Westmeath, Tipperary and Cork, that have brought the military authorities to say that there are, respectively, ten, 11 and 18 persons of long Army service and of long service in the Reserve with a good character in both, in these particular counties whose services were no longer required.

The Minister has repeatedly stated that this new Force is an entirely non-political Force, but the Ministerial Press on the 22nd February last reports "an official statement which was published yesterday":—

"By bringing together again old comrades-in-arms it is hoped that it will go far to heal the bitterness that has so seriously retarded national progress during the past few years. Volunteers are quite entitled to have any political opinions they think fit; they are simply asked not to introduce these opinions into their Volunteer activities. The Government and the Army authorities have taken all possible steps to render the Force strictly non-political, and it is confidently expected that they will be supported in their endeavours by all political groups and by the people as a whole."

It has already been pointed out here to the Minister that in selecting the officers that he did select for the new Force, all of them being of the one particular political outlook, and with the one particular political history, he did not give his new Force a chance: that he exposed this new Force to the charge of being a political Force. The action that the Minister has taken, action directed against a certain number of men in the Army Reserve, dismissing them in the way that he has done without giving any reason good, bad or indifferent, indicates that he has prejudiced the Army Reserve with a political outlook. That will, most inevitably, have reactions on the whole atmosphere of the new Force which, as the Minister has been reminded already, is sufficiently prejudiced by the fact that he has selected the officers in charge of it entirely from a group with one particular political outlook and with a particular political history.

The Minister has informed the House that the new Force is going to cost a considerable amount of money, and as it is going to be one piece with the Army the Minister, in organising it, gave it a separate uniform. I should like to ask the Minister, now that this Force is developing, whether his experience, up to the present, has not been such that he ought to review the question of having a separate uniform for this Force? The Minister has put the officers of the new Force into, I understand, the ordinary Army uniform. The difference that exists between the Army and the Reserve and the new political Force, a difference in uniform, is bound to create a certain amount of difference, a difference of esprit de corps as between two classes and will inevitably create an outlook, I do not say a political outlook or political differences but, at any rate, it will produce a situation which will divide the Volunteer Force in spirit from the Army as a whole. I ask whether the Minister has since had that matter under consideration and whether he proposes to continue to have a separate uniform for his new Force?

The statement was made in January or February last in the Ministerial Press that the Minister had taken an important decision and that it was intended to confine commissions in the Army in future to members of the Volunteer Force and discredit the cadet system. I do not know whether the Minister has since addressed himself to the question of commissions in the new Army but what has since happened makes it advisable that the Minister would tell us now what the position is with regard to future commissions and what will be the system in future in giving commissions in the Army.

The Minister promised some time ago to make a statement with regard to the question of pensions for officers, non-commissioned officers and men. I should like to know when will the Minister promulgate his decision with regard to this question of pensions for the officers, non-commissioned officers and men in the Army?

With reference to the point which Deputy Mulcahy raised as to a pensions scheme for the Army, I hope to introduce a Bill for Army pensions in the course of a few weeks. Deputy Mulcahy accused me of dismissing reservists because of their political opinions. That is not so. If the Deputy holds that, I suppose he will also, logically, have to hold that the remainder of the reservists are Fianna Fáil supporters or otherwise I would dismiss them. After all, there have been 61 reservists dismissed out of a total of around 8,000. That is very much less than one per cent.

As far as I am concerned I do not care what politics a soldier has, whether the soldier is in the regular Army, is a reservist, or is a volunteer. All I want, and what I demand of them, is that they will be prepared to obey Army regulations which are made out in the ordinary way and that I have confidence in them that they will do their duty according to the oath they took when they joined the Army. Deputy Mulcahy said that in some way, in answer to his question, I endeavoured to throw responsibility for the dismissal of these reservists on to the shoulders of the military authorities as distinct from myself. In answer to some of Deputy Mulcahy's supplementary questions, I clearly pointed out that as Minister for Defence I was responsible for the running of the Army, that I took full and absolute responsibility for dismissing certain men and for keeping on others and if there is any blame to be apportioned on the score of the dismissal of certain numbers of reservists, that responsibility is mine and attaches to no one else.

In August of last year it became necessary for me to issue regulations forbidding members of the Reserve from being members of the Army Comrades' Association or the National Guard or any military or semi-military body not lawfully maintained by the Government of the Saorstát or membership of any secret society. The position is that the reservist or volunteer while on active service is prohibited by the Army regulations from being a member of political organisations. The soldier or volunteer is forbidden to be a member of any military or semi-military body not lawfully maintained by the Government and he is also forbidden to be a member of any secret society. If it comes to my knowledge that any member of the Reserve or any member of the Volunteer Forces breaks that regulation I will have him in the Army as short a time as possible.

I want to repeat that I have no objection to members of the Reserve or Volunteers having any political opinions they like. Reservists and Volunteers can have any political opinions; so long as they are soldiers and obey the regulations they will be retained in the Reserve. I do not believe that the remainder of the 8,000 who are in the Reserve are followers of Fianna Fáil. I do believe, however, that they are prepared to obey the regulations which have been issued and that they are prepared to serve in the manner set out in the oath they took.

Deputy Mulcahy also raised a point about a separate uniform for the Volunteers. I think it is only right that the Volunteers should have a distinctive uniform. It is so in every country in the world, and if we could afford it I would have a distinctive uniform for every corps in the service. We have certain distinctive badges for certain units, and if it were possible I would go much further and have a distinctive uniform.

In regard to the system of commissions, it is intended to confine the commissions in the regular Army to volunteers. I want to get as officers for the regular Army men who have a really keen interest in military life, and I think the best possible proof of that is in the case of the young man who comes forward and gives his services voluntarily. When we want cadets for the regular Army, we will hold an examination from amongst the Volunteers. We can then sort out the men who are most suitable from the educational point of view and from the military point of view. The present Officers' Training Corps will be incorporated in the Volunteer force through time. I think that these are all the points which were raised.

On the question of commissions, is it proposed to issue regulations that will specify how the cadets are to be taken into the Army in future?

On the question of the reservists, are we to understand that the persons who were put out of the Reserve and told they were no longer wanted, were put out because they belonged to an organisation which the Minister considered to be either a military or semi-military organisation not particularly legalised by the State?

In the case of the majority of them, that was the reason.

In fairness to the men themselves, and having regard to their records, would it not have been better if they had been told that and if the House, in reply to the questions put to the Minister, had been told that? All we want to know is where the men stand in relation to the Minister and the Department in respect of these things. That could have been criticised in the full knowledge of the facts.

Question put and agreed to.
Ordered: That the remaining Stages be taken to-day.
Bill put through Committee and Final Stages without amendment.
Bill ordered to be sent to the Seanad.
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