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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Jun 1934

Vol. 53 No. 10

In Committee on Finance. - Criminal Law Amendment Bill, 1934—Second Stage.

The Attorney-General

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." This Bill is the result of the recognition by members of all Parties of the necessity for strengthening the law dealing with sexual offences, particularly with regard to offences against young girls. It has to be admitted that there has been an increase of offences against young girls in recent years in this country. This increase may be attributed, with a considerable show of reason, to the altered conditions of modern life, with its greatly enlarged opportunities for amusement and enjoyment, and the mingling of the sexes without that supervision which obtained in former days. It may also be said to be due in part to the relaxation of parental control. Whatever be the causes it is clear this Bill is necessary. The Bill marks a great step in advance in the law for the protection of young girls. It is drastic in its provisions. The ground for the measure was cleared by the Carrigan Committee. The report of the Committee has been of great help in estimating the problem which had to be dealt with. We have also had in the framing of this measure the help of a Committee of members of this House, representative of all Parties. The desire of the framers of the measure has been to produce a workable measure adequate, in so far as legislation can be adequate, to deal with an unhealthy condition of things.

In considering the measure, I ask members to realise that those who are responsible for framing its provisions approached their task with a grave sense of their responsibility. The Bill, in its main provisions, goes as far as it is reasonable that legislation should go in dealing with the conditions at which it is aimed. It is, I think, generally admitted that the real cure for the ills which make this Bill necessary lies with parents and those charged with the care and upbringing of young persons. That such a measure should be introduced at all, should be, if such is necessary, a warning signal to all thinking persons, and in particular to parents.

The Bill proposes an increase in what is called the age of consent in respect of carnal knowledge or attempted carnal knowledge. This increase is from 16 to 17 years. The maximum punishment for unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under 15 is made the same as was provided in the case of this offence against a girl under 13, namely, penal servitude for life. The maximum punishment for attempted carnal knowledge is increased from two years' imprisonment to five years' penal servitude, and in the case of a second offence there is a further increase. The period within which a prosecution may be commenced is increased from six months to 12 months.

The defence formerly available, that the accused had reasonable cause to believe that the girl was over the age of consent, is to be abolished. This defence is very seldom made in this country. Many lawyers of considerable experience have never encountered a single instance of this defence —I have only known of one case in which such a defence was made. The Bill proposes that the age of consent to indecent assault be increased from 13 to 15 years. I would point out, however, that where the indecent assault amounts to attempted carnal knowledge, the age of consent is raised to 17. It is unnecessary to say that a prosecution lies for the most trifling indecent assault on a female of any age where there is no consent.

The principle of raising the ages to 15 and 17 respectively instead of 13 and 16 runs throughout the Bill and any necessary consequential amendments of other statutes are made accordingly. The law relating to offences against weak-minded women is being strengthened. The Bill makes provision for searching premises suspected to be used as brothels and for heavier penalties for brothel-keeping. It deals also with the punishment for solicitation. The present position, in which the maximum penalty is a fine of 40/- even for the twentieth offence, is most unsatisfactory. Under the Bill the court will have power in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to impose a penalty of six months' imprisonment.

Section 17 forbids the sale or importation of any contraceptive. It also prohibits advertisements of such things. Section 18 relates to unseemly conduct in public. Except in certain towns, prosecutions for such offences could not be taken summarily in the District Court, and it is obviously undesirable to have to proceed by way of indictment. Needless to say, many proposed amendments of the law were submitted which have not been embodied in the Bill. Some of these amendments appeared at first sight to be reasonable and worthy of adoption but on closer examination were found to be attended with practical and other difficulties. For obvious reasons, it is hoped that amendments will not be put down without the most careful consideration. The Bill is an honest attempt to deal with a delicate and difficult problem.

This Bill is really the work of a Committee, formed from all Parties of this House, which was an entirely non-political Committee. There are certain things in this Bill which I, personally, may not or do not entirely approve of. In a matter of this kind, naturally, it is absolutely impossible to get every mind to agree on every detail. The Bill, however, is the result of the best effort of every member of that committee to bring in the best possible Bill that could be brought in under the circumstances. I believe that, on the whole, that committee has succeeded in its work and, personally, I support the Bill and hope that it will be now read a Second Time.

Is the proposal that the Bill be now read a Second Time?

The Attorney-General

I move that the Bill be referred to a Special Committee consisting of 11 Deputies, to be nominated by the original committee the first meeting of the committee to be held this day week.

That seems to me to be a rather strange procedure. This has been dealt with already by a Special Committee and I think that that committee has done everything that a committee could do with regard to this Bill. Of course, if the Attorney-General desires it to be referred to such a committee, I shall not oppose it.

The Attorney-General

I would not have moved that a Committee should be formed but I understood that there had been some agreement upon this.

It is not my province, of course, but my understanding was that, if it were likely that there would be any discussion on the Bill, it should be referred first to such a Committee but that, otherwise, the Committee Stage would be taken now.

The reason for setting up the Committee originally was that it was felt more appropriate to discuss the terms of the Bill in such a Committee than to have a debate in the House.

The Attorney-General

I agree, of course, if that is the understanding.

A lot depends on the nature of the amendments that might be proposed and on the amount of discussion.

It depends on the amendments.

I was asked about this matter by people in the House and about certain questions that were raised about which, on the whole, I had the idea that there was a kind of understanding that it would be better to have them go to a special committee. The committee may find that they will not want to go any further but I understood that certain people would like to put certain matters before a special committee.

I presume that if this Bill does get before the House there is not going to be prolonged discussion on it. I do not know whether there is any urgency about the passing of the Bill or not, but I would suggest that, say, a fortnight should be left before the Committee Stage so that the different Parties would have an opportunity of seeing what are the types of amendments to be discussed. Then the question as to whether it should go before a special committee could be arranged.

The Attorney-General

I am prepared to withdraw this motion and to agree to taking the Committee Stage in the ordinary way this day week.

Would the Attorney-General agree to next Tuesday week?

The Attorney-General

Yes.

We had hoped that that would not be necessary, and, personally, I think there is no good in putting the same committee on it again. On the other hand, if it is to be a different committee, it can go over everything and there is no knowing when it will finish. Personally, I hope that there will be no need for a discussion of this in either the old committee or a new committee. I think it should be left over for a week or a fortnight's time and if amendments come in subsequently which the Attorney-General feels require special consideration, then a committee can be formed. Otherwise, I hope that the Committee Stage goes through.

The Attorney-General

I agree with Deputy Fitzgerald.

Would the Attorney-General consider the propriety of allowing Deputies who have not had the advantage of seeing the report of the committee to have access to that report now? The report has not been published and I do not ask that it be published. All I want is to see it laid on the Table of the House and to allow Deputies to study it. Perhaps this might limit the number of amendments to be put down afterwards.

The Bill is practically the report, with certain alterations, of the committee that has already sat.

The Attorney-General

I will consider the suggestion and convey it to the Minister to see if the Deputy can be met.

Committee Stage fixed for Tuesday, 10th July.

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