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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Aug 1934

Vol. 53 No. 17

Military Service Pensions Bill, 1934—Second Stage.

I move that this Bill be now read a Second Time. The principle of this Bill is to provide service pensions for Volunteers who had active service in Easter Week or the Black and Tan war and who fought in the I.R.A. during the civil war. The scale of pensions is the same as that granted to the officers and men who obtained pensions under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924. For a number of years the policy of Fianna Fáil was to abolish the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924. Some time ago, however, representations were made to the Government pointing out that it would be unfair to withdraw the 1924 pensions. Many arguments were put forward, which the Executive Council felt were just, and after careful consideration they decided that as all the other contracts made by the previous Government with the various sections of the community were being kept, the pensions awarded under the 1924 Act should be continued and at the same time immediate steps should be taken to secure that those who fought with the I.R.A. in the civil war should in future be given equal treatment.

The terms and conditions both as regard the grant and the amount of pensions under this Bill to the members of the I.R.A. are the same as those provided for under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924. To qualify for a pension an applicant must show that he had military service subsequent to the 1st July, 1922, as well as service in Easter Week or throughout either of the periods 1st April, 1920, to the 31st March, 1921, or from the 1st April, 1921, to 11th July, 1921. Applicants who secure a service certificate will be awarded a pension on the basis of their rank on the 11th July, 1921, or on the 1st July, 1922, whichever is the higher.

A difficulty arises in grading the ranks in the I.R.A. so as to make them comparable with the ranks of the standing army. The I.R.A. was organised on a territorial basis, each parish or village had its company of Volunteers and each district its Battalion. These units were called companies or battalions in many parts of the country even though there were not sufficient men in a company to make a section or a half section in a standing army. In the case of my old division there were a few companies which had only from 12 to 20 men each, while in other companies there were as many as 150 men. In order to arrive at a grading which will make the ranks of the various units of the I.R.A. comparable one with another and with those of a standing army, it has been found necessary to incorporate the rules for the grading of ranks which will be found in the First Schedule to the Bill. These rules ensure that a company officer will not be graded as captain unless there were 60 men or more in his company and that a battalion o/c will not be graded as commandant unless there were 300 men or more in his battalion. It will be noted that the ranks are designated A, B, C, D, and E:

Rank A. corresponds to a rank higher than that of Major-General in the 1924 Act.

Rank B. to Colonel or Major-General.

Rank C. to Commandant or Major.

Rank D. to Lieutenant or Captain.

Rank E. to Private or Non-commissioned Officer.

The rate of pension corresponds to the equivalent ranks under the 1924 Act.

The duties performed under the 1924 Act by the Board of Assessors in the finding of rank and service will be performed under this Bill by a Referee, who will be assisted by a committee of four persons as set out in Clause 6 of the Bill and provision is made that the Referee will have power to compel attendance of witnesses and the production of documents. The provision in the Military Service Pensions Act, 1925, as to the power of the Executive Council to revoke a military service pension granted under the 1924 Act has been incorporated in the Bill as regards pensions to be granted under the Bill (Clause 12).

Clause 13, following a similar provision in the 1924 Act (Section 3 (6)), enables the Minister, both as regards pensions under the 1924 Act and under this Bill, to request the Reference to review a report on which the certificate and pension were based on the ground that evidence not available prior to the making of such report has since become available, and in accordance with the report of the Referee to withdraw or reduce any such pension that may be granted. It may be taken that such request to the Referee to review cases of pensions already granted will not be made unless there is fairly strong evidence that there was fraud or misrepresentation. It is estimated that the number of men who become entitled to pensions under this Bill is roughly twice the number who have already been awarded pensions under the 1924 Act. The annual cost of the Bill will amount to £360,000. It is impossible to give a close estimate of the probable cost, but I believe that £360,000 is an outside figure, and that the annual cost will be well under that amount.

It is rather difficult to read this Bill, having regard to the way in which it is presented. Whether that is part of the scheme or not it is hard to say just at the moment. Some words are blurred over, and it is not as easy to make out the Bill as when the Bills were being printed. One point which struck me in connection with the introduction of the measure was whether, in those few cases where people were late in making application for pensions under the 1924 Act, any provision has been made for including them within the scope of this Bill. The Minister has referred to cases which had been heard or dealt with before, and to the fact that they may not be reopened, but these cases to which I refer, and there are not many of them, were not previously heard because the applications were late. The Minister's estimate of the cost of this pension scheme is pretty extensive. I do not know if I followed him very clearly, but I think he stated that service prior to July, 1921, and subsequent to June, 1922, was a condition precedent to securing a pension in these cases. There must be continuous service, or, at any rate, service in both periods. In that connection there were applications made by some of those who gave service in 1916, and who are in bad circumstances. Representations were made on their behalf, and I understood that an opportunity would be afforded by the introduction of this measure to deal with cases of that sort. It would appear from some recent correspondence which I have seen in regard to the matter, that these people are in bad financial circumstances. Their case has not been presented to me in anything like detailed form, but if a letter which I saw from them be true, some of those people are in an almost destitute state. I should like to know if the Minister has received any representations on behalf of those people, and if any inquiries have been made into the circumstances.

As I say, the sum of £360,000 appears to be a rather big figure. On one occasion after 1916 it was freely rumoured in certain quarters that the numbers of those engaged in 1916 would by the end of 20 years have reached 100,000. Some figures like that must have been in the Minister's mind when he estimated on expenditure of £360,000 per annum for these pensions.

No representations were made to me in regard to applicants who were late under the 1924 Act. It may be that Deputy Cosgrave heard something about those. If there were any late, surely they made representations to him during his eight years in office subsequent to the passing of the 1924 Act. As regards the 1916 men, the principle of the 1924 Act was that an applicant was required to prove that he had had active service either in 1916 or in the Black and Tan war, plus service from the 1st July, 1922. This Bill deals with the problem in a similar way. It provides only for men who had active service in 1916 or in the Black and Tan war plus service after the 1st July, 1922. Under the 1924 Act, a man might have had active service in 1916 but if that service were not carried on after 1st July, 1922, he got no pension. Neither will he get a pension under this Bill. I think that the principle upon which the last Government went was that the man must have had continuous service, so that his ordinary mode of life was upset — that he must have devoted his time to military service for a long number of years before becoming entitled to a pension. This Bill deals with the problem in the same way as the 1924 Act did. We have tried in every way to follow the last Act and simply to extend the provision made for the 1924 pensioners to those who fought for the I.R.A. in 1922.

Question put and agreed to.

I suggest that the Committee Stage be taken to-morrow.

I think that is too soon.

Then we can take it on Thursday.

Up to what time will amendments be received?

Up to the time of meeting.

Amendments will be received up to 3 o'clock on Thursday.

Agreed.

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